2011 MLB Thread

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Dice-K in 2010: 153.2 IP 4.69 ERA
Lackey in 2010: 215 IP 4.40 ERA

Dice-K in 2011: 37.1 IP 5.30 ERA
Lackey in 2011: 160 IP 6.40 ERA

Sure, no one expected All-Star performance, but to say "Nobody expected much from Dice-K or Lackey" is hyperbole.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I don't see how our starting pitching had any more questions than the Yankees 2-6 of Burnett, Nova, Colon, Garcia and Hughes coming into the year.

This Front Office clearly lacks the ability to identify talented pitchers. They've gotten lucky with a couple (Lester, Bucholz, good-Beckett), but other than that it's a fucking shit-show. They hype the guys they do get to the moon, but I have zero confidence in them anymore. Meanwhile, the Yankees get solid seasons from their #5-6 guys on the depth chart.

[kingfc22]

Mets pull Reyes after he gets a hit to preserve his batting average.

WEAK.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Mets pull Reyes after he gets a hit to preserve his batting average.

WEAK.

agreed

[ISiddiqui]

Hey, when you are trying to resign the guy...

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Mets pull Reyes after he gets a hit to preserve his batting average.

WEAK.

Teddy Ballgame is on the ballfield up in Heaven.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Hey, when you are trying to resign the guy...

You shouldn't let him win a batting title so he can use it to negotiate?

[Logan]

Collins said a couple days ago that he'd be pulled after an at bat or two.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

This Front Office clearly lacks the ability to identify talented pitchers. They've gotten lucky with a couple (Lester, Bucholz, good-Beckett), but other than that it's a fucking shit-show. They hype the guys they do get to the moon, but I have zero confidence in them anymore. Meanwhile, the Yankees get solid seasons from their #5-6 guys on the depth chart.

We got lucky with Beckett? a.k.a. trading for a 26 y/o power pitcher with an established track record? And then "lucky" with Lester, Buchholz, Bard and Papelbon? That's 4 all-star caliber pitchers drafted in 5 years without a single pick in the top 15 - how many teams can say that?

I thought the Lackey signing was an immediate overpay, but I expected ~200 innings of league-average ERA for at least the first few years (as pretty much any rational observer did). Wakefield hasn't done anything differently than he has for the past dozen years - mop up innings at the back end of the rotation and in the swingman spot for below-average cost (2.5m I think). Dice-K hasn't worked out, but there were a dozen other teams who thought he would be a star - and in his first two seasons he had an ERA+ of 130 and even finished 4th in Cy Young voting. Miller was picked up to be a lottery ticket we could stash in the minors and work on developing - not someone we picked up to be our #4/5 starter. We've traded away multiple starting pitchers (Kelly, Masterson) who would be on that depth chart before Weiland for elite position players (Martinez, Gonzalez). And finally, the bullpen - comprised of 2 draft picks and a bunch of reclamation projects like Aceves, Morales, Albers, Atchison and Wheeler - has the 3rd best ERA in the AL despite throwing the 2nd most innings.

I do think there is something wrong with the medical staff, I do think Epstein overpays for free agents (although no one saw the drop in production for Crawford or Lackey coming), but sometimes a team like the Red Sox get unlucky, while a team like the Yankees sign a 38-year old who hasn't pitched 100 innings since 2005, didn't even play professionally last year, and he miraculously makes it through a whole season.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

We got lucky with Beckett? a.k.a. trading for a 26 y/o power pitcher with an established track record? And then "lucky" with Lester, Buchholz, Bard and Papelbon? Well, that's 4 all-star caliber pitchers drafted in 5 years without a single pick in the top 15 - how many teams can say that?

I thought the Lackey signing was an immediate overpay, but I expected ~200 innings of league-average ERA for at least the first few years (as pretty much any rational observer did). Wakefield hasn't done anything differently than he has for the past dozen years - mop up innings at the back end of the rotation and in the swingman spot for below-average cost (2.5m I think). Dice-K hasn't worked out, but there were a dozen other teams who thought he would be a star - and in his first two seasons he had an ERA+ of 130 and even finished 4th in Cy Young voting. Miller was picked up to be a lottery ticket we could stash in the minors and work on developing - not someone we picked up to be our #4/5 starter. We've traded away multiple starting pitchers (Kelly, Masterson) who would be on that depth chart before Weiland for elite position players (Martinez, Gonzalez). And finally, the bullpen - comprised of 2 draft picks and a bunch of reclamation projects like Aceves, Morales, Albers, Atchison and Wheeler - has the 3rd best ERA in the AL despite throwing the 2nd most innings.

I do think there is something wrong with the medical staff, I do think Epstein overpays for free agents (although no one saw the drop in production for Crawford or Lackey coming), but sometimes a team like the Red Sox get unlucky, while a team like the Yankees sign a 38-year old who hasn't pitched 100 innings since 2005, didn't even play professionally last year, and he miraculously makes it through a whole season.

Yes...we got lucky trading for Beckett that he "worked out" (although you can argue that with his every-other-year thing). Or you can say that they evaluated him properly, if that makes you feel better.

Bard is no all-star .

Bucholz MIGHT be an All-Star - that's still TBD in my mind.

Lester and Paps - okay...those worked out. I have ZERO complaints about Wakefield...guy is a fucking gamer and a team player.

Agree with you on Lackey - he's been far more fragile mentally than I expected (but shouldn't the team have done their homework?). I still think they mishandled the Dice-K thing (not sure what they could have done, but there has to have been a way they could have gotten him to perform better, doesn't there?).

You're still making my point with Miller/Weiland/etc though - they overvalued the guys they had at the front and had dogshit for depth - partly because they traded away the internally-developed depth (yes, for impact position players), but also through not picking up the right depth guys. Consistently. Not just this year. Remember the John Smoltz experiment? Or what about that other guy a couple years back who was coming off surgery and went to the Astros afterwards (I think that's it? Or did he come from the Astros before?) Face it...they pick up these reclamation projects, and where other teams manage to hit on one every so often they fail on them...100% of the time. And because they overpaid for Lackey and crapped the bed on Dice-K they have no flexibility to get better depth guys, so their failure to pick the right reclamation project comes back to bite them in the ass.

Agree with you on the medical staff (hard to see how anyone couldn't and why it's not a bigger topic of conversation in the media aroudn here), and on overpaying for FAs.

As far as the bullpen - generally I agree that bullpens are a crapshoot and I'm generally okay with their philosophy of building a bullpen. And I'll agree that the Sox bullpen this year has been quite good. I don't really have any massive issues with the bullpen - seems like for once they picked the right reclamation projects there and struck it rich.

Name the last "reclamation project" that we had that worked out? Meanwhile the Yankees (to use your example), seem to have a Colon anytime they need one.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Alfredo Aceves

if not good, at least you're predictable

[Logan]

Among this Reyes controversy, is anyone going to mention Braun taking a day off two nights ago when he was two points up on Reyes?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Alfredo Aceves

if not good, at least you're predictable

Hmmm? Was this directed at me?

Aceves has been very good. I have no issues with the rest of the bullpen (save Bard's wilting under pressure) and certainly none with Aceves, who has done really well, especially considering he's spot-started too.

[stevew]

The Sox took a bunch of fliers on guys like Milwood too. Miller was also a shrewd move, if only for the slight hope that he could put it all together. I think maybe the only other thing they could have done would be to move Aceves into the rotation, but that would even be questionably worth it.

[stevew]

The Red Sox season has been an inverted shit sandwich this year. Sort of the Double Down of shit sandwiches.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Logan

Among this Reyes controversy, is anyone going to mention Braun taking a day off two nights ago when he was two points up on Reyes?

What? Two nights ago? That's old news! We need to bitch and moan about what's happening TODAY!!!!!!

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Logan

Among this Reyes controversy, is anyone going to mention Braun taking a day off two nights ago when he was two points up on Reyes?

Bah, give Reyes the batting title. The Brewers have playoffs to worry about.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Hmmm? Was this directed at me?

Aceves has been very good. I have no issues with the rest of the bullpen (save Bard's wilting under pressure) and certainly none with Aceves, who has done really well, especially considering he's spot-started too.

You were haranguing about the last reclamation project that worked for the Sox and he's been their best pitcher this past month.

[larrymcg421]

I remember when Gerald Perry (on a last place Braves squad) sat out the last game of the season to preserve a (rounded up) .300 average.

[panerd]

I have always heard about how Atlanta is a poor sports town but the attendance for this make or break game is pathetic.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I remember when Gerald Perry (on a last place Braves squad) sat out the last game of the season to preserve a (rounded up) .300 average.

Phillips did the same thing with the Reds today.

[RedKingGold]

If the Braves can't do anything off the tee-ball pitches Blanton is throwing, then you don't deserve to get into the playoffs.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I remember when Gerald Perry (on a last place Braves squad) sat out the last game of the season to preserve a (rounded up) .300 average.

I always dug Perry's beard.

[kingfc22]

Giants had 4 of the top 11 in ERA in the NL....Bah what could have been...

[tarcone]

GO CARDS!!!!!

[digamma]

Originally Posted by panerd

I have always heard about how Atlanta is a poor sports town but the attendance for this make or break game is pathetic.

It's a college sports town. And a football town. Always has been.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by panerd

I have always heard about how Atlanta is a poor sports town but the attendance for this make or break game is pathetic.

Maybe that bodes well, the only reason I saw Sid Bream slide in person was because the radio station that provided the tickets literally couldn't find anyone willing to take them & they slipped way down the list of buyers to my (eventual) wife, who passed them along to me & my dad.

That said, 42k on Monday & 38k on Tuesday is roughly double what the team normally gets on weeknights when school is in session. Only broke 30k three times in 31 M/Tu/W games this season & one of those was July 4th (the others were 6/15 & 6/16 vs the Mets).

Playoff implications or not, kids still have school tomorrow & that kills weeknight games.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Bard is no all-star .

Bucholz MIGHT be an All-Star - that's still TBD in my mind.

Lester and Paps - okay...those worked out.

You're letting his (bad) last month (with a .379 BAbip) color your perception of Bard. He's still a pitcher with a sub 3.00 ERA and 3/1 K/BB ratio over his 3-year career - put him in the closer role instead of the setup role and he's an all-star. Buchholz had an ERA of 2.70 the past 2 seasons as a 25/26 y/o. Health may be an issue there, but I fail to see how that falls on the scouts.

Agree with you on Lackey - he's been far more fragile mentally than I expected (but shouldn't the team have done their homework?). I still think they mishandled the Dice-K thing (not sure what they could have done, but there has to have been a way they could have gotten him to perform better, doesn't there?).

If Lackey is struggling due to off-field stuff that's different than failing to perform due to "big-market media pressure" that could conceivably be predicted. There's no way to predict that his wife would get cancer or his marriage would fall apart. Nobody has any clue what the deal is with Dice-K - blame the Sox if you want, but I don't see what any other team would have done in the situation.

You're still making my point with Miller/Weiland/etc though - they overvalued the guys they had at the front and had dogshit for depth -

No, that's not the point. Miller was 7th/8th on the depth chart - the Yankees have had 2 starts from #7 on, the Rays have had 5, and the Red Sox are at 21 or 29 depending on how you count Bedard. Weiland wasn't even 8th - it was supposed to be Tazawa and Doubront, but both were injured as well.

No team has starting pitching depth past #6 on the org chart - and if they do, it's only because they either hit the sweet spot where a prospect is major-league ready by midseason (Matt Moore - who was still TB's #6 and not their #10), or because their #3 on is so bad that #'s 7 and 8 don't look that bad in comparison.

partly because they traded away the internally-developed depth (yes, for impact position players), but also through not picking up the right depth guys. Consistently. Not just this year. Remember the John Smoltz experiment? Or what about that other guy a couple years back who was coming off surgery and went to the Astros afterwards (I think that's it? Or did he come from the Astros before?) Face it...they pick up these reclamation projects, and where other teams manage to hit on one every so often they fail on them...100% of the time. And because they overpaid for Lackey and crapped the bed on Dice-K they have no flexibility to get better depth guys, so their failure to pick the right reclamation project comes back to bite them in the ass.

Other teams hit on them more frequently because they have more open rotation spots and more chances to hit on them. We had our first 6 starters lined up - Colon or Garcia weren't going to sign with us because they would have had to wait in line to get a chance. Where we do have multiple open spots each year, and take multiple fliers, is in the bullpen - and we've hit on plenty of guys there, like Aceves, Atchison, Morales, Kyle Snyder and Takashi Saito in the last 4 years. Or you could look at our position players, where we have 2 reclamation players (Saltalamacchia and Ortiz) to go with the pricey veterans with proven track records (Gonzalez, Crawford, Scutaro, Drew) and the 3 homegrown MVP candidates (Youkilis, Pedroia, Ellsbury). And again, name a team with 3 legitimate homegrown MVP candidates that weren't picked in the top 20.

(Of course, as a last point, the response to a failure to hit on multiple reclamation projects is to sign a steady, if not spectacular, pitcher to lock up the #4/#5 spot in the rotation - which was the reason we signed Lackey.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Uggla 2 run homer puts Braves up 3-1
Texiera grand slam puts the Yankees up 5-0
Hardy 2 run homer put Orioles up 2-1
Cards-Astros just getting started ... wonder who'll homer there?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Uggla 2 run homer puts Braves up 3-1
Texiera grand slam puts the Yankees up 5-0
Hardy 2 run homer put Orioles up 2-1
Cards-Astros just getting started ... wonder who'll homer there?

5-0 Cards, Astros yet to bat.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Ouch. 5 runs on 7 hits in the 1st for the Cardinals.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Baltimore balks in the tying run, now 2-2 in the 4th

[Easy Mac]

I haven't seen a Myers get pounded like that since... Wait.

Well, the Braves officially have to win tonight.

If you're Fredi, do you let Hudson pitch until he can't anymore, or do you yank him after 6 and go with the big 3?

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I haven't seen a Myers get pounded like that since... Wait.

Well, the Braves officially have to win tonight.

If you're Fredi, do you let Hudson pitch until he can't anymore, or do you yank him after 6 and go with the big 3?

If you're Fredi, you probably replace him with the corpse of Tom Glavine cuz he's a veteran. #notAFan#

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

If you're Fredi, you probably replace him with the corpse of Tom Glavine cuz he's a veteran. #notAFan#

That might be an upgrade over relievers 4 through 7.

[tarcone]

GO CARDS!!!!!!

Im bummed. ESPN3 has blacked out the Cardinal game in my area.

[Thomkal]

I'm with tarcone

[Big Fo]

Jack Wilson. The only thing he does well is field. Goddamnit.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by tarcone

GO CARDS!!!!!!

Im bummed. ESPN3 has blacked out the Cardinal game in my area.

You don't get Fox Sports Midwest?

[Dutch]

Go Orioles!!!

[Logan]

Beautiful double play just pulled off by Scutaro and Pedroia.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by panerd

You don't get Fox Sports Midwest?

We got rid of Directv. We only have the locals on an antenna.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It's up to Venters & (presumably) Kimbrel now. 3-2 Braves headed to the 8th.

[SirFozzie]

RedSox dodge a major bullet for the second straight inning

6 IP, 2 Runs, 95 or so pitches.. Lester's done. And he's done about all a Sox fan could ask of him

[SirFozzie]

And this could take a while, they are talking on the radio about thunderstorms in the Baltimore area.

[lungs]

I hope Daron Sutton is watching the Brewer game.

[MizzouRah]

7-0 Yeah baby!

[SirFozzie]

And the tarp is on the field at Camden Yards..

to quote Charlie Brown:


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

[EagleFan]

Looks like the Phillies just need to go up there in the 9th and swing at anything to force a one game playoff tomorrow.

Though I am torn between that and seeing them deal a death blow to the Braves.

[SirFozzie]

They're guessing the rain delay will be 90-120 minutes according to the Sox radio feed.