Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[MrDNA]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm really interested in the numbers on moderates over the next couple of days. No doubt she's giving a barn burner for the base, but is it playing to moderates? I don't claim to know, but it certainly seems that she's more focused on the right than the middle.

Exactly what I was wondering. It's a lot easier to get the captive audience targeted. I know Guiliani's rhetoric turned me off.


Off topic: She just called the senate the "Do nothing senate." Erm... isn't that McCain's experience she just badmouthed?

[JPhillips]

This is a really difficult task for the Republicans. They seem to have pivoted to a reform message, but they're largely arguing to reform Republican government. That's tough to make work.

[Racer]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

It's a very effective speech for the goal of playing to the right. The moderates might be a bit more put off, tho. She's gotten off some really nice zingers and played the "I'm a down home mom" thing well but sheneeds to lay off it soon or look like someone who just rolled off the PTA.

Personally, I can't stand her, tho- sounds like a complete and total asshole (or bitch, if you prefer the gender term).

SI

+1

[sabotai]

After her talking about McCain being tortured, I am wondering what her stance is on "enhanced interrogation techniques"...

[Flasch186]

its certainly an interesting play that the RNC is trying to corner the market on change...I expected security but change I felt was clearly the DNC's forte (not Matt). We'll see if it sticks....


she just finished and I thought she was spot on tonight. Only one gripe...here at the end, theyre bringing out the family which is cool but I need them to say that the discussion of the pregnancy and the upcoming nuptuals (I heard the word fiancee today) is back on the table since theyve trotted her out in the tightest maternity dress made.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I think her speech has been absolutely perfect. They recognize the audience, she's engaged, she self depricating, she's been poignant, been issue-centric, and had zingers and pulled them off. If Obama's speech was perfect for that same stuff, so has this been. She killed it tonight....and she's not done yet.

I agree with you.

[Galaxy]

For your abstinence ads, just use Levi. Knock a girl up, and you become part of a presidential election and potentially the son-of-law of the United States VP.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

For your abstinence ads, just use Levi. Knock a girl up, and you become part of a presidential election and potentially the son-of-law of the United States VP.

For reals.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

For your abstinence ads, just use Levi. Knock a girl up, and you become part of a presidential election and potentially the son-of-law of the United States VP.

Is it me or does Levi looked pissed on stage.

[JPhillips]

Levi looks like the most uncomfortable guy in the world.

[Jas_lov]

Levi looks good up there chewing gum. I hope he parlayed this into a powerful position in the McCain Administration.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Levi looks like the most uncomfortable guy in the world.

I got that sense all night. He's probably thinking, "What the hell did I get into"?

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Levi looks like the most uncomfortable guy in the world.

He looked okay earlier in the event, at least the two of them seem to look okay interacting with each other. The daughter is the one that looks uncomfortable. I mean, as if she doesn't has enough to deal with...

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I got that sense all night. He's probably thinking, "What the hell did I get into"?

+1

Imagine how his parents must be feeling...

[DaddyTorgo]

I agree flasch - if they're going to trot out the pregnant daughter and the baby-daddy all the time (and use them to try to garner votes) then they become fair-game

[JPhillips]

what worse this national anthem or democrat cover band?

[Cringer]

This just showed me why I didn't watch 95% of the DNC and haven't watched any of the RNC until tonight. I am personally fed up with 'cheap shots' at the other side. This woman's speech had many in it. I am sure the others did as well, but hers was the only one I watched and by the middle of it I was thinking I would vote for Obama until I told myself that side was probably just as pathetic.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

This is what needs to be cleared up. If a man sounds tough, he sounds great (like Rudi or Obama). However, if a woman sounds tough, she sounds like a bitch/asshole.

No, no, 1000 times no. This isn't a man/woman thing.

One, Obama is rarely "tough". It's just not his style or schtick.

Two, if a guy had delivered her speech- he's either a party schill or a bully. Rudy was the latter tonight. But people have seen him and know him and many people have tired of him since they know he's a blowhard. No one is treading new ground by calling Rudy a bully.

SI

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

what worse this national anthem or democrat cover band?

Too tough to decide, kill 'em both.

[SirFozzie]

Yeah. Most elections have both sides moving to the middle. This one, it seems like the Republicans are spending their time reassuring their most willing supporters and not pulling in the middle. The Democrats did so as well, but MUCH less then the Repubs are

[Flasch186]

not as bad as the country schtick here at the end however Im not a fan of country music to begin with but the pledge mixed with the star spangled banner and now the concert.....sheesh.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

But people have seen him and know him and many people have tired of him since they know he's a blowhard.

*raises hand*

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I think her speech has been absolutely perfect. They recognize the audience, she's engaged, she self depricating, she's been poignant, been issue-centric, and had zingers and pulled them off. If Obama's speech was perfect for that same stuff, so has this been. She killed it tonight....and she's not done yet.

And she infuriated CNN, the New York Times and FOFC, so obviously she knocked it out of the park.

[Cringer]

I do like how the kid they are forcing their teen daughter to marry there. That is classic and says "we want privacy" all over it.

Also, just to let out some personal venom....I have the assumption this woman has had very little to do with the care of that baby, and it will be even less if she becomes VP. Makes for a good photo to have it around on the campaign though.

[ISiddiqui]

Wow... she definitely is a great speaker. I had heard stuff about it prior to this, but I hadn't realize just how good and confident she is up there. She was easily the best speaker of the night, and knowing what I know of McCain, probably the best speaker of the Convention.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

And she infuriated CNN, the New York Times and FOFC, so obviously she knocked it out of the park.

We could've predicted that BEFORE this happened. I mean, she could've sat up there and performed her routine from the Miss Alaska pageant and they'd have cheered just as much.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Also, just to let out some personal venom....I have the assumption this woman has had very little to do with the care of that baby, and it will be even less if she becomes VP. Makes for a good photo to have it around on the campaign though.

+1

That baby is a prop. Independent woman or not...all we have to go on is what we see and what we see, ain't good.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Wow... she definitely is a great speaker. I had heard stuff about it prior to this, but I hadn't realize just how good and confident she is up there. She was easily the best speaker of the night, and knowing what I know of McCain, probably the best speaker of the Convention.

Guliani set her up well too.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Cringer

I do like how the kid they are forcing their teen daughter to marry there. That is classic and says "we want privacy" all over it.

Also, just to let out some personal venom....I have the assumption this woman has had very little to do with the care of that baby, and it will be even less if she becomes VP. Makes for a good photo to have it around on the campaign though.

The media is the one who dug up about Bristol's pregnancy and her baby.

The second line just hits the wrong nerve with me.

[Flasch186]

she told the Lawyer vetting her last week and she's the one who said that they wanted to keep it a "private matter" and asked for respect. We do....but it's not fair to say that and then start accentuating it all. The 2 dont line up SO one needs to move to the other. they say that they understand it is in the public space now or they treat it like a private matter, then it's fine and my brain makes sense of it.

[ace1914]

It sounds like McCain is taking the exact same route of Hillary Clinton type attacks against Obama down the stretch. Well see if it works.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Two, if a guy had delivered her speech- he's either a party schill or a bully. Rudy was the latter tonight. But people have seen him and know him and many people have tired of him since they know he's a blowhard. No one is treading new ground by calling Rudy a bully.

Party/schill or bully is FAR more tame than bitch. Its the same tactics that the right went after with Hillary Clinton. A tough woman become a bitch. A tough man stands strong, etc.

[Flasch186]

either perfect or poor timing but, troopergate movement that flies in the face of her not knowing about it all so me and Arles are right that this seems to have some legs:

Report: Palin sent e-mails complaining of trooper - Yahoo! News

Originally Posted by article

Report: Palin sent e-mails complaining of trooper

By STEVE QUINN, Associated Press Writer 58 minutes ago

ANCHORAGE, Alaska - Gov. Sarah Palin sent e-mails to the state's top police official, criticizing Alaska State Troopers for their investigation of an officer who went through a bitter divorce with her sister, a newspaper reported Wednesday.

Former Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan showed copies of the e-mails to The Washington Post. He didn't provide copies to the newspaper, but said he has turned copies over to an investigator probing the firing for the Legislature.

Monegan has said he felt pressured by Palin family members and her administration to fire Trooper Mike Wooten, whom they say threatened to kill Palin's father, among other accusations, all taking place before she became governor. Monegan was fired by Palin in July.

The Post reported on its Web site that the e-mails were sent from Palin's personal Yahoo account. In one, dated Feb. 7, 2007, it says of the investigation of Wooten: "This trooper is still out on the street, in fact he's been promoted."

"It was a joke, the whole long 'investigation' of him," says the e-mail, sent giving Monegan permission to speak before a bill being heard by the Legislature. "This is the same trooper who's out there today telling people the new administration is going to destroy the trooper organization, and that he'd 'never work for that b '," Palin'.)"

The second e-mail was sent July 17, 2007, discussing a bill before lawmakers that would prevent the mentally ill from having guns.

The e-mail says the first thought "went to my ex-brother-in-law, the trooper, who threatened to kill my dad yet was not even reprimanded by his bosses and still to this day carried a gun, of course."

Palin has strongly denied that Monegan's dismissal had anything to do with her former brother-in-law. She said she never pressured the commissioner to fire her sister's ex-husband and no one from her office had complained about Wooten.

Monegan has said he was never told directly to fire Wooten but felt pressured by members of the governor's family and administration.

There was no answer at Monegan's rural Anchorage home on Wednesday afternoon, and his phone rang unanswered.

Messages left by The Associated Press with the McCain campaign and with her office were not immediately returned.

The content of the e-mails surfaced as an aide to Palin refused to give a deposition to a legislative investigator reviewing Palin's firing of Monegan.

An attorney for Palin aide Frank Bailey questions whether the Legislature has jurisdiction to investigate Monegan's dismissal. The position taken by attorney Greg Grebe on Bailey's behalf echoes the argument by a lawyer hired by the state to defend Palin and her office in the investigation.

When the investigation was launched, Palin said she and her staff would cooperate fully with the investigation.

On Wednesday, Palin's lawyer, Thomas Van Flein, released a letter sent the previous day, asking the state to suspend the investigation until the question of jurisdiction is resolved.

If granted, it could delay announcing whether the investigator found that Palin abused her power in dismissing the commissioner. The results were expected Oct. 31, a week before the November election.

Van Flein on Tuesday also asked the state's personnel board to investigate the firing, trying to pre-empt the legislative investigation.

In 2005, before Palin ran for office, the Palin family accused trooper Mike Wooten of drinking beer in his patrol car, illegally shooting a moose and firing a Taser at his 11-year-old stepson. Palin and her husband, Todd, also claimed Wooten threatened to kill Sarah Palin's father. Wooten, who hasn't returned numerous phone calls left by The Associated Press this week, was suspended over the allegations for five days in 2006 but still has his job.

Palin was elected governor in 2006.

In July, the legislature launched a $100,000 investigation into whether Palin abused her power in firing Monegan.

Monegan has said no one told him directly to fire Wooten, but has said he felt pressure from Palin's family members, including her husband Todd, and administration to do so.

At the time Palin fired him, the governor said she wanted the department to move in a new direction. But later, after Monegan said he felt pressured to fire Wooten, Palin at a news conference said Monegan wasn't a team player, didn't do enough to fill trooper vacancies and battle alcohol abuse issues in rural Alaska.

Grebe said he expects Palin's attorney to file a court challenge to determine which agency has jurisdiction, perhaps as early as Thursday.

When he learned this, Grebe said he told Bailey not to keep his Tuesday evening appointment until jurisdiction could be determined by a judge or agreed upon by Van Flein and the Legislature's investigator, Stephen Branchflower.

"I can't choose one side or the other," Grebe said. "That's not our place to decide that. Normally courts decide disputes like that, so I'll wait to hear from them first."

Neither Van Flein nor Bailey, the director of boards and commissioners who is on paid administrative leave, could be reached Wednesday for comment.

Sen. Hollis French, an Anchorage Democrat overseeing the investigation, said Bailey is the first person who refused to testify.

"It slows down the work that Mr. Branchflower is doing," French said. "Steve went through a lot of trouble to set up this date.

"It's still premature to say the governor is not cooperating because Bailey has his own lawyer doing this."

Bailey was caught on tape questioning an Alaska State Trooper official why an officer who went through a bitter divorce with Palin's sister was still employed.

In the recorded conversation, Bailey said: "Todd and Sarah are scratching their heads, why on earth hasn't, why is this guy still representing the department? He's a horrible recruiting tool. ... You know, I mean from their perspective, everyone's protecting him."

Palin called the conversation "most disturbing" and "problematic."

At the time Bailey, a mid-level administrator, told The Associated Press that he was worried for the governor's safety and acted on his own without telling Palin or her family.

Grebe said Bailey plans to maintain his stance on what happened, but won't do so until a judge has ruled on the jurisdiction.

"He's going to say the same thing all along, that he overstepped his bounds and the mistake was made by him," Grebe said. "I'm hoping for one shot at this but only when somebody can show me they have jurisdiction for what they are doing."

[Jas_lov]

Maybe her speech was supposed to appeal to the base to solidify that vote and McCain's speech tomorrow will go after the moderates. But which narrative of McCain will be effective- Maverick, Independent, Reformer McCain or McSame is running for George Bush's 3rd term.

I say this because the GOP didn't really go after the #1 issue among independents tonight, the economy. They instead focused on attacking Obama for being a community organizer, drill baby drill, and islamofacists.

[SFL Cat]

She hit the taxes pretty hard, actually.

[Galaxy]

Bottom line:

If you like Obama and are a Democrat (in general), you won't like Palin (no matter how strong of a speaker she is) or McCain.

Vice versa for McCain and Republicans on Obama/Biden.

[SFL Cat]

I usually make it a point not to vote for socialists with Marxist leanings...and usually those tend to graze on the Democrat side of the yard.

[ISiddiqui]

Unlikely allies for Palin:

Most Emailed News Stories

ST. PAUL, Minn. — Sarah Palin found some unlikely allies Wednesday as leading academics and even former top aides to Hillary Rodham Clinton endorsed the Republican charge that John McCain’s running mate has been subject to a sexist double standard by the news media and Democrats.

Georgetown University professor Deborah Tannen, who has written best-selling books on gender differences, said she agrees with complaints that Palin skeptics — including prominent voices in the news media — have crossed a line by speculating about whether the Alaska governor is neglecting her family in pursuit of national office.

“What we’re dealing with now, there’s nothing subtle about it,” said Tannen. “We’re dealing with the assumption that child-rearing is the job of women and not men. Is it sexist? Yes.”

“There’s no way those questions would be asked of a male candidate,” said Howard Wolfson a former top strategist for Clinton’s presidential campaign.

Even so, many media and liberal voices have made the job easy for McCain’s spin squadrons. Among the eyebrow-raising comments in recent days:

• Democrat Joe Biden, in what he intended as self-deprecating remark, observed, “There's a gigantic difference between John McCain and Barack Obama and between me and I suspect my vice presidential opponent. ... She's good looking."

• A spokeswoman for the National Organization for Women, noting Palin’s opposition to abortion rights and support of other parts of the social conservative agenda, told Politico, “She's more a conservative man than she is a woman on women's issues. Very disappointing."

• Liberal radio host Ed Schultz used the words “bimbo alert” to refer to Palin, and the Huffington Post featured a photo montage of Palin with the headline, “Former Beauty Queen, Future VP?”

• CNN’s John Roberts recently pondered on air: “Children with Down’s syndrome require an awful lot of attention. The role of vice president, it seems to me, would take up an awful lot of her time, and it raises the issue of how much time will she have to dedicate to her newborn child?”

This line of inquiry was echoed by writer Sally Quinn, who in her “On Faith” column for washingtonpost.com agreed that Palin is a “bright, attractive, impressive person,” but also asked, “is she prepared for the all-consuming nature of the job?”

“Her first priority has to be her children,” Quinn wrote. “When the phone rings at 3 in the morning and one of her children is really sick what choice will she make?”

There is little question that these questions are being asked around kitchen tables. But there are recent examples of a double standard.

Former Sen. John Edwards (D-N.C.) was more frequently praised for his perseverance than hazed for misplaced priorities when he continued his presidential campaign even after wife Elizabeth Edwards was diagnosed with an incurable form of cancer. The couple has two children still at home, ages 10 and 8.

Edwards was himself a close finalist for a vice presidential nod in 2000, when Al Gore nearly tapped him at a time when he had served the same amount of time in the U.S. Senate that Palin has as Alaska governor, and about the same amount of time that Barack Obama had served when he began his presidential quest two years ago.

Phil Singer, who worked with Wolfson on Clinton’s campaign, said the news media tend to focus on different sets of subjects when covering women candidates. He noted articles on Clinton’s cleavage, and whether she had the personality of a “bitch.”

“There’s no question that the issues a woman has to deal with are different,” Singer said, adding that, “The real indictment that needs to be prosecuted is about her views, not her personal life.”

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Party/schill or bully is FAR more tame than bitch. Its the same tactics that the right went after with Hillary Clinton. A tough woman become a bitch. A tough man stands strong, etc.

I disagree completely. Party schill is tamer, to be sure. However, bully and bitch are two gender specific sides of the same coin. They're the same idea but apply to different genders. It's the same way people use the term asshole and bitch to describe the same people/actions, just with gender distinctions.

SI

[JPhillips]

There needs to be a corollary to Godwin's Law dealing with marxism.

[Swaggs]

I thought she did a great job of delivering several "soundbyte" type of lines that will get a lot of play in the news. She came off way tougher than I would have imagined and pretty hawkish -- it will be interesting to see how it plays among undecideds. I think the Republican base is going to be fired up (and that has been enough in the past two elections), but I'm not sure if Palin is going to attract new voters very well.

She did mention "victory" in Iraq several times, so I would have liked to hear what that entails from her point of view.

Also, agreed with the previous post about McCain's message. With the time advantage he had in winning his primary earlier than Obama, he has really had trouble figuring out a message to identify himself with. He has kind of floated ideas to see if they stick (the surge, the celebrity/elitist attack stuff, the off-shore drilling, experience), now it seems like he has settled on his biography, which I think is probably his best asset and best bet in the current climate.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

The media is the one who dug up about Bristol's pregnancy and her baby.

The second line just hits the wrong nerve with me.

Ok, just to point it out clearly since it may not be known since I don't post in this thread much....I am not voting Obama or McCain. I am independent, and will go third party since I don't like either side enough to vote for one of them.


1. Because the media digs something up that you want privacy about, you are going to turn a 180 and give them all they want? Including bringing the kid to the RNC? It doesn't show me they really want to keep it that private, and it does show me they are willing to use it to their advantage if they can. I am pretty sure the media didn't get him a flight out there. Though if they did I will stand corrected. And laugh because that would be funny.

2. Sorry that one rubs you wrong, but that is how I feel, and I would guess I am right about it. I can't see too much quality time set aside for baby while trying to campaign and be a governor at the same time. Of course the 'back to work three days after birth' kind of supports me on that one a little.

[JPhillips]

I've said, and continue to believe the good mother stuff is way out of bounds. However, that article, if it's going to mention something as tame as Biden's "good looking" has to mention Limbaugh's "babe" or someone at the National Review talking about her as a dirty librarian. I don't think Biden meant it as a sexist attack, but even if he did there's lots of company among Palin supporters.

[Swaggs]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and forecast that Saturday Night Live will have a sketch about the Palins handing the baby off and/or losing track of him.

[JPhillips]

I should add that I am interested in the dissonance between voting for her and holding a "woman's place is in the home" mindset that is held by a number of conservatives that will vote for her. Ideally, though, that doesn't slam her as a mother, but enlightens those that think a woman's role should be limited.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I disagree completely. Party schill is tamer, to be sure. However, bully and bitch are two gender specific sides of the same coin. They're the same idea but apply to different genders. It's the same way people use the term asshole and bitch to describe the same people/actions, just with gender distinctions.

SI

Oh Hells Fucking No! Bitch is a FAR more of a strong word than bully. No one fucking cares about being called a bully. Being called a bitch is far, far worse. And women can easily be called a bully and have been. There is nothing gender specific about bully.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I've said, and continue to believe the good mother stuff is way out of bounds. However, that article, if it's going to mention something as tame as Biden's "good looking" has to mention Limbaugh's "babe" or someone at the National Review talking about her as a dirty librarian. I don't think Biden meant it as a sexist attack, but even if he did there's lots of company among Palin supporters.

Oh, I agree. I was absolutely disgusted at all the "Hottest VP" buttons. WTF?! Shows that we as a society are no where where we need to be on gender issues.

[Flasch186]

Dem talking heads are saying that the swipes at "community organizers" is going to be the next talking point for the Left and that they'll be able to boil it down to a street level about "you". I didnt think about it at the time but the speeches tonight were mocking of community events and involvement and now I think back to Obama's push for free education to those who spend time volunteering and can see that spin over the next week or so....i missed that though at the time.

[JPhillips]

The only big mistake in the speech was the bridge to nowhere line. That's been thoroughly debunked and McCain/Palin need to drop it or they'll look stupid.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Being called a bitch is far, far worse.

Or better, depending upon your perspective. I've know quite a few women who, used in certain contexts, would have been very pleased with the description. Palin strikes me as one who would be pretty nonplussed by it when it comes from a strong performance.