BART Shooting

[Noop]

I am not shocked at all by this verdict. The justice system has proven over and over again that it has no interest in justice.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Seriously? Bullshit verdict? I mean you understand how the trial process works...beyond a reasonable doubt and all of that.

An average person wouldn't be carrying a gun and legitimately pointing it at someone. If this situation stops where the guy pulls the gun and points it at someone, we don't hear of it again. This guy can safely state that he was doing his job right up until the point where he pulls the trigger. If he says that was an accident....How exactly does someone prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is lying, and that it was intentional?

He can state whatever he wants, but just coming up with an excuse doesn't qualify as reasonable doubt. And no, "I thought it was my taser" doesn't pass the smell test for me.

[Bad-example]

Justice was served. I never thought for one second that the cop intended to murder the guy in front of dozens of people. "He meant to fire the taser" holds a hell of a lot more water than "He decided to kill a prone suspect in public".

It sounds to me like the jury got it right.

I hope they come down like a hammer on the assholes doing the rioting and looting.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

Justice was served. I never thought for one second that the cop intended to murder the guy in front of dozens of people. "He meant to fire the taser" holds a hell of a lot more water than "He decided to kill a prone suspect in public".

It sounds to me like the jury got it right.

I hope they come down like a hammer on the assholes doing the rioting and looting.

Right. Justice. Served. Right. Right.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by Noop

Right. Justice. Served. Right. Right.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by miked

Max sentence is 4 years, though the judge could increase it because a gun was used. I'm with Larry here, sort of. Are we really supposed to believe that this guy thought he was drawing and firing his taser? Are cops that dumb? That was his defense, an accident and thought he was drawing his taser. I guess they weigh the same as guns and have the same trigger as well. I can understand heat of the moment, but the dude was pinned down by another cop and subdued.

I also find it a bit odd that a jury of his peers in Oakland encompassed 12 white people.

The trial was held in LA, not in Oakland and it wasn't all white people that made up the jury.




Not hearing much of what was presented at his trial, I can't really say if this is the right verdict or not. How many times was the guy shot? If it was once, then I can see where there's a possibility of it being an accident. More than once, is not an accident.

From what I've heard, he was subdued but still resisting arrest. He was being arrested (along with several other people) because of a fight that broke out at one of the BART stations or on one of the trains. As far as I know, he was the only one resisting arrest.

Only crumbs of information were coming out of the trial, so it's hard to put together the pieces and really form a good idea on what really happened.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

I hope they come down like a hammer on the assholes doing the rioting and looting.

Make them wear a tshirt that says" Oscar Grant was murdered and all I got were these lousy sneakers"

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Make them wear a tshirt that says" Oscar Grant was murdered and all I got were these lousy sneakers"

[JediKooter]

Yup, they seem real pissed with smiles on their faces.

[molson]

What does looting have to do with justice?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Noop

The justice system has proven over and over again that it has no interest in justice.

True.

"Justice" would have acquitted him for removing one more thug from the planet.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by molson

What does looting have to do with justice?

Nothing. It does give some individuals an opportunity to loot though and I'm sure they could care less as to the reason why.

[Bigsmooth]

Free stuff!

[Masked]

Originally Posted by miked

I also find it a bit odd that a jury of his peers in Oakland encompassed 12 white people.

The trial was moved to L.A. - I believe the jury included several Hispanics and one other minority (Indian?).

[Glengoyne]

Today is actually the first I'd heard the "I thought it was my Taser" bit, or at least I don't recall hearing that in this case. Actually that makes perfect sense.

There was a case here locally where a cop shot and killed a prisoner that was handcuffed and sitting in the car. She believed she was using her taser. I believe the next day, all police issued tasers were collected, and the department went to a taser that had a different shape that couldn't be confused with a gun.

People screw up. If they do, it really is involuntary manslaughter. The folks rioting and looting in the streets are more criminal than the guy who did the shooting in this case.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Noop

Right. Justice. Served. Right. Right.

Right

Originally Posted by Noop

Get real.

[Chubby]

So if the cop was black or if the guy shot was white do we have all this broohaha?








I didn't think so either...

[stevew]

I couldn't figure out why all the black people in Oakland were pissed about LeBron leaving.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Chubby

So if the cop was black or if the guy shot was white do we have all this broohaha?

In the similar instance noted by Glengoyne, both the officer and the victim were hispanic. Therefore, it wasn't a big deal.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

You are a funny and transparent guy.

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Transparent

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

True.

"Justice" would have acquitted him for removing one more thug from the planet.

Wow. Jon how can you say such mean things... oh my god... that is so mean... your so controversial.

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Right


Get real.

Glen you can go suck a cold dick in hell.

[molson]

That's pretty good evidence of the emergence of soccer in the U.S. - one of those hoodlums appears to be stealing a soccer ball. We've come a long way.

[Noop]

For the record I absolutely despise the people looting and wish they catch every single one of them. I hate how black people think stealing will avenge Oscar's death fuck them(looters) and fuck Oakland justice system.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Noop

For the record I absolutely despise the people looting and wish they catch every single one of them. I hate how black people think stealing will avenge Oscar's death fuck them(looters) and fuck Oakland justice system.

I guess the city of Oakland picked the wrong time to lay off over 80 police officers.

[molson]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

I work as a bad guy for police training in the DC area. The local departments, and really every metropolitan department in the country, receive live action training with "simunition" weapons. Recruits, and in most areas veteran officers as well, are put through repeated scenarios where they have to effectively handle extremely stressful situations or get shot. If those scenarios are not passed the officers do not get a badge and have to do remedial training until they are functioning at an acceptable level.

The "I thought it was my taser" excuse is complete BS. A fairly young cop did something extremely stupid where he clearly let his emotions dictate his actions instead of the circumstances. In that particular situation, with a 2nd officer having hands on the contact, a taser would be considered excessive force. To use anything other than cuffs in that spot wouldn't pass protocol with any legitimate police force. An asp/baton/oc spray/taser etc. would be acceptable to pull out but not to use unless the contact begins to escape or begins to harm the officer who is hands on with him.

Watching the newest angle of the shooting I can say the officer's surprise reaction at his weapon going off looks a lot more like the typical realization that he's gone far beyond the acceptable level of force than it does confusion about which weapon he used.

I'm not sure 2nd degree murder could stick in this situation simply because of the immediate surprise look on the officer's face, but he definitely should be doing a lengthy jail term and have one hell of a hard time finding a job once he's released.

I don't think he should have been using a taser either. And I wonder how well he was trained/how qualified he was to be an officer. BART cops are pretty much the lowest of the low, aren't they?

Being a police officer is a very difficult, thankless job, and people want them fired every time every time they're rude at a traffic stop. When a police officer is let go though, next in line is inevitably someone like Mr. Mehserle.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

I work as a bad guy for police training in the DC area. The local departments, and really every metropolitan department in the country, receive live action training with "simunition" weapons. Recruits, and in most areas veteran officers as well, are put through repeated scenarios where they have to effectively handle extremely stressful situations or get shot. If those scenarios are not passed the officers do not get a badge and have to do remedial training until they are functioning at an acceptable level.

The "I thought it was my taser" excuse is complete BS. A fairly young cop did something extremely stupid where he clearly let his emotions dictate his actions instead of the circumstances. In that particular situation, with a 2nd officer having hands on the contact, a taser would be considered excessive force. To use anything other than cuffs in that spot wouldn't pass protocol with any legitimate police force. An asp/baton/oc spray/taser etc. would be acceptable to pull out but not to use unless the contact begins to escape or begins to harm the officer who is hands on with him.

Watching the newest angle of the shooting I can say the officer's surprise reaction at his weapon going off looks a lot more like the typical realization that he's gone far beyond the acceptable level of force than it does confusion about which weapon he used.

I'm not sure 2nd degree murder could stick in this situation simply because of the immediate surprise look on the officer's face, but he definitely should be doing a lengthy jail term and have one hell of a hard time finding a job once he's released.

Thank you for the perspective.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't think he should have been using a taser either. And I wonder how well he was trained/how qualified he was to be an officer. BART cops are pretty much the lowest of the low, aren't they?

Being a police officer is a very difficult, thankless job, and people want them fired every time every time they're rude at a traffic stop. When a police officer is let go though, next in line is inevitably someone like Mr. Mehserle.

Yes, don't confuse BART cops with the city cops. I think the saying is, "They're a BART cop for a reason".

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Noop

For the record I absolutely despise the people looting and wish they catch every single one of them. I hate how black people think stealing will avenge Oscar's death fuck them(looters) and fuck Oakland justice system.

You mean the state of CA's justice system right?...

[Noop]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

You mean the state of CA's justice system right?...

Whoever.

[Glengoyne]

Noop

I'm now regretting that I changed my initial statement for you. I thought that there was no need to really even approach getting personal.

I guess I forgot who I was dealing with.

Seven years ago, I would have told you to grow the hell up. The passing of years didn't seem to do anything for your ability to reason something through or improve the way you interact with others. Older != matured

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

You mean the state of CA's justice system right?...

I think we may be gaining some insight into his ....leaving... law school.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

I work as a bad guy for police training in the DC area. The local departments, and really every metropolitan department in the country, receive live action training ... If those scenarios are not passed the officers do not get a badge and have to do remedial training until they are functioning at an acceptable level....

I'd pretty much doubt that this guy received any of that training.

I'm thinking that a suitable punishment for manslaughter would be acceptable, and this guy should never work in law enforcement again.

Originally Posted by molson

I don't think he should have been using a taser either. And I wonder how well he was trained/how qualified he was to be an officer. BART cops are pretty much the lowest of the low, aren't they?
...

I also question the intended use of the taser when there is another cop in contact with the assailant/victim. I still think it is possible that is what happened though, and can't image how evidence to the contrary could be presented.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by Noop

You are a funny and transparent guy.
Transparent
Wow. Jon how can you say such mean things... oh my god... that is so mean... your so controversial.
Glen you can go suck a cold dick in hell.

The justice system failed the cop in Chicago that was killed by an individual with over 15 prior arrests. The justice system failed the cops in Tampa that were killed by a man with over 20 arrests. Funny how I don't see you complaining about that. Funny how I don't see riots going on over that. Funny how I don't see community leaders standing up and saying it's an outrage that individuals like that are allowed out of prison. That's when the justice system failed. What has Oscar Grant ever contributed to society to make me feel sorry about his death? Sorry, I'll save my grievances for the people who are murdered protecting the scum that hates them.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Noop

I'm now regretting that I changed my initial statement for you. I thought that there was no need to really even approach getting personal.

I guess I forgot who I was dealing with.

Seven years ago, I would have told you to grow the hell up. The passing of years didn't seem to do anything for your ability to reason something through or improve the way you interact with others. Older != matured

Hmm I might have over reacted because I perceived your comment as an attack and considering our history I went def-con 5. Apologizes if you did not intend it that way.

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I think we may be gaining some insight into his ....leaving... law school.

I will never understand why that is relevant to anything, I am not in law school yet. I really wish people would understand that 9 times out of 10 I am just spit balling. I give how I feel about something and move on because this is just a forum.

I can most certainly can make my points better but I have no interest in that with this board.

Originally Posted by illinifan999

The justice system failed the cop in Chicago that was killed by an individual with over 15 prior arrests. The justice system failed the cops in Tampa that were killed by a man with over 20 arrests. Funny how I don't see you complaining about that. Funny how I don't see riots going on over that. Funny how I don't see community leaders standing up and saying it's an outrage that individuals like that are allowed out of prison. That's when the justice system failed. What has Oscar Grant ever contributed to society to make me feel sorry about his death? Sorry, I'll save my grievances for the people who are murdered protecting the scum that hates them.

Look you come across as someone with deep rooted issues you seem to think every person killed by police deserves it. Just recently in Miami a police officier executed a man for no reason in front of a crowd of witnesses. What about the countless other times policemen have killed innocence people that doesn't make it to Fox News?

There is a natural fear of police within certain communities and for good reason. Not every cop is a racist out to spill blood but a few our and let their presence taint the force. The police in Miami shot the man because he thought he was going to get a weapon out of the glove box. I heard the story and thought to myself that could have been me.

I got pulled over recently and I remember having to tell the officer when asked for my insurance that it was in my glove. I said that and he put his hand on his weapon... I didn't move an inch. The reason I got pulled over? Because I didn't have on my seat belt... or so he says.

Was that cop a bad one? Hell if I know but he sure as hell didn't come off as someone trying to do his job. *I have dark tints how would he know if I had my seat belt or not?* The perception I have of police is for every good cop I have ever encountered I have encountered 5 assholes.

This may or may not make sense so sorry if it doesn't. Let me know so I can clear up anything. Peace.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by Noop

I got pulled over recently and I remember having to tell the officer when asked for my insurance that it was in my glove. I said that and he put his hand on his weapon... I didn't move an inch. The reason I got pulled over? Because I didn't have on my seat belt... or so he says.

Was that cop a bad one? Hell if I know but he sure as hell didn't come off as someone trying to do his job. *I have dark tints how would he know if I had my seat belt or not?* The perception I have of police is for every good cop I have ever encountered I have encountered 5 assholes.

This may or may not make sense so sorry if it doesn't. Let me know so I can clear up anything. Peace.

Noop, you have to remember that a traffic stop is one of the most dangerous situations a police officer will encounter. Obviously telling the officer that you were going to the glove compartment was the right thing to do, but it doesn't mean he's not going to take a precaution to make sure that he is going home at the end of his shift.

And I don't know why you think that I think everyone shot by police deserves it. Obviously that is not true. That's not true in this case. Grant didn't deserve to be shot. But saying the justice system failed in this situation because a cop made a mistake and was punished according to the law for that mistake is ludicrous. The justice system fails many times, but no in this situation.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Noop

I got pulled over recently and I remember having to tell the officer when asked for my insurance that it was in my glove. I said that and he put his hand on his weapon... I didn't move an inch.

They're trained to have their hand on the gun if you're going to go into the glove. Makes sense. But it was very considerate of you to tell the officer what you were doing. That can go a long way. (tell the officer what movements you're going to make, turn on the interior lights when you're stopped at night so they can see what's going in there before they approach.)

I've read thousands of police reports for my job and I think a lot of people enjoy playing a kind of "chicken" with officers, testing their boundaries, etc, trying to make the officer nervous. I think it's a power thing. People don't like others having legal authority over them, so they try to even things up by making things as difficult as possible.

Officers' relationships with the citizens in certain communities go both ways. If they're used to being disrespected, they're going to be more antsy in that community. If officers are more polite, less people will act like assholes around them. If the citizens are more polite, police will perceive less serious threats in that community. The answer to improving the tension is more respect on both sides. Everyone wants to have an enemy and that just goes nowhere. The officer that killed the guy in Oakland is in jail. But the anger from that incident will invade cop/citizen interactions in that area for years to come. Which will inevitably lead to more incidents.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Noop

I got pulled over recently and I remember having to tell the officer when asked for my insurance that it was in my glove. I said that and he put his hand on his weapon... I didn't move an inch.

Assuming that you mean "glove compartment", I got the exact same behavior from an officer in 1985, less than 5 minutes from my house in a county that had about 10,000 residents at the time.

Damned white cop.

[fantom1979]

Originally Posted by Noop

Hmm I might have over reacted because I perceived your comment as an attack and considering our history I went def-con 5. Apologizes if you did not intend it that way.

DEFCON 5 is a state of peace, you went DEFCON 1

DEFCON - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Noop]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Noop, you have to remember that a traffic stop is one of the most dangerous situations a police officer will encounter. Obviously telling the officer that you were going to the glove compartment was the right thing to do, but it doesn't mean he's not going to take a precaution to make sure that he is going home at the end of his shift.

And I don't know why you think that I think everyone shot by police deserves it. Obviously that is not true. That's not true in this case. Grant didn't deserve to be shot. But saying the justice system failed in this situation because a cop made a mistake and was punished according to the law for that mistake is ludicrous. The justice system fails many times, but no in this situation.

I understand completely that traffic stops are dangerous for the cops. Maybe it was just the whole way things went down that made me get scared but I definitely thought it was a bit much.

I don't think feel that way (in reference to the second paragraph) but that is the perception/vibe I get from you. Obviously I am wrong and I am glad to be wrong but it was just the vibe I got.

Originally Posted by molson

Officers' relationships with the citizens in certain communities go both ways. If they're used to being disrespected, they're going to be more antsy in that community. If officers are more polite, less people will act like assholes around them. If the citizens are more polite, police will perceive less serious threats in that community. The answer to improving the tension is more respect on both sides. Everyone wants to have an enemy and that just goes nowhere. The officer that killed the guy in Oakland is in jail. But the anger from that incident will invade cop/citizen interactions in that area for years to come. Which will inevitably lead to more incidents.

I once had a cop pull a gun on me when I was younger because me and my friends fit the description of the people who robbed a Chinese restaurant. Besides being scared shitless the officer once he realized we weren't the guys apologized and even rode to my house to explain to my parents it was a mistake. (People in the neighborhood thought we had gotten arrested)

He didn't have to do that but he did and for that reason I always showed him respect when he drove around the neighborhood. That same cop is the most hated man in our area because he's been accused of a lot of dirty stuff. Too me he is a good cop and he still remembers my face and far as I can tell does his job. Too others this guy is like Denzel from Training Day...

Sorry but reading your comment reminded me of that.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by fantom1979

DEFCON 5 is a state of peace, you went DEFCON 1

DEFCON - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LOL my bad.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Assuming that you mean "glove compartment", I got the exact same behavior from an officer in 1985, less than 5 minutes from my house in a county that had about 10,000 residents at the time.

Damned white cop.

Oh Jon... you're just so controversial...

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Assuming that you mean "glove compartment", I got the exact same behavior from an officer in 1985, less than 5 minutes from my house in a county that had about 10,000 residents at the time.

Damned white cop.

Hispanic cop did that to me. He's racist, I tellsya!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Hispanic cop did that to me. He's racist, I tellsya!

Eh, you probably asked him for ID, so you had it coming

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Hispanic cop did that to me. He's racist, I tellsya!

Wait did what I posted imply that I thought the guy was a racist? I definitely didn't mean for it to come off that way.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Noop

Wait did what I posted imply that I thought the guy was a racist? I definitely didn't mean for it to come off that way.

I might have misread. Perhaps you meant cops are over-aggressive? If so, my apologies.

My impression, with respect to your reference about how certain communities fear cops, was that your charge wasn't entirely based in law enforcement being overly aggressive, but also reacting worse to you because of your race.,

BTW, long as I got your ear, if you're suspicious he couldn't have seen you didn't have your seat belt on because of your dark-tinted windows, I am pretty sure he coulda just pulled you over legitimately for the windows.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I might have misread. Perhaps you meant cops are over-aggressive? If so, my apologies.

My impression, with respect to your reference about how certain communities fear cops, was that your charge wasn't entirely based in law enforcement being overly aggressive, but also reacting worse to you because of your race.,

BTW, long as I got your ear, if you're suspicious he couldn't have seen you didn't have your seat belt on because of your dark-tinted windows, I am pretty sure he coulda just pulled you over legitimately for the windows.

I reread what I wrote and yeah I should have transitioned it better. My tints are legal so there is no way he could have saw if I had a seat belt or not.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Noop

I reread what I wrote and yeah I should have transitioned it better. My tints are legal so there is no way he could have saw if I had a seat belt or not.

They are legal? Personally if they can't see inside the vehicle, they shouldn't be legal... But that's just my opinion.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Noop

Hmm I might have over reacted because I perceived your comment as an attack and considering our history I went def-con 5. Apologizes if you did not intend it that way.


Look you come across as someone with deep rooted issues you seem to think every person killed by police deserves it.

The perception I have of police is for every good cop I have ever encountered I have encountered 5 assholes.

This may or may not make sense so sorry if it doesn't. Let me know so I can clear up anything. Peace.

Peace Noop.

I'll agree with you that almost all cops are assholes. I don't know if the job breeds the attitude/behavior or if the job attracts a personality type. One difference, is that I don't think of them in that light while they are on the job. In that context I give them all of the respect that the their position accords them.

I think it is funny that you think some one who by default believes the police, until there is evidence to the contrary has the deep seated problem.

On your tale regarding reaching for the glove compartment, the hand on the gun is SOP. 20 years ago some friends of mine were pulled over in a borrowed pickup. The officer asked for registration, and the passenger punchesmthe button on the glove compartment. The driver, who had borrowed the truck from her hill-Billy boy friend yells out 'no', and a .357 falls into the passenger's lap. That cop's gun cleared the holster, and he handled the situation very well. My friends were damn lucky, as a less perceptive cop may have opened fire.

All in all nice post Noop.

[Sun Tzu]

Just found out that a couple friends (a married couple) got the crap beat out of them in downtown Oakland when the news broke. I guess a group of black guys decided that two white people they had never seen were somehow to blame. Broken noses, bloodied, wound up in the Emergency room.

Unbelievable...no wait...I take that back. Completely expected response.