Official 2009-2010 MLB Offseason Thread

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Gammon has annoyed me. The way he was a PR person for the Red Sox was tiresome and he seemed to have grown quite a hatred for the statistical community in recent years.

Despite that, the guy did a lot for baseball sportswriting (which could also be bad or good I guess).

+1

I have a lot of respect for Gammons as a baseball writer, but in recent years he's started to grate on me - too Boston-centric, and showing a bit of an attitude towards the sabermetric crowd (though in fairness he's also far more accepting of sabermetrics than many of his contemporaries...)

[lungs]

Randy Wolf to the Brewers, 3 years just under $30 million.

[molson]

Gammons is one of the few people in the sports media I believe. He's very well connected, and with that does come a necessary degree of not really going after certain players/teams - but that's never been his role anyway.

I mean, check out the college football threads. There's ridiculous amount of "done deal" reports that are nothing more than total lies. I think people forget after the fact, how wrong these "insiders" are, ALL the time.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

you'd rather holiday than bay?

i guess i haven't dug in and done enough research to know (to my shame), but is holiday an upgrade over bay, or just a bigger "name?". fine...5 minutes of research shows me that they're basically identical players offensively. give me whoever will come cheaper please.

I'd also like to see Gonzalez, but i don't think he's moving. price for Halladay is also too rich for me...concentrate on what you've got and a reclamation-project or three for short money (Ben Sheets?).

Having seen Holiday play a bunch on TV and about 15 games at the stadium in Denver Holiday is a great player and really all said and done would be a upgrade over Bay. I think we saw the best we could see from Bay who was playing for a contract. Holiday we saw the worst in Oakland a notorious hitters park. I think he would do well in Fenway and is a better fielder. But, it sounds like Epstein may just sit tight and not sign any of these guys but instead bring back Coco crisp to platoon with Jeremy Heredia. Sox fans should brace for 2006 all over again.
http://www.boston.com/sports/columni...said_that.html

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Doesn't look like there's a huge market for either of them, although it's hard to tell what's posturing and what isn't.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Having seen Holiday play a bunch on TV and about 15 games at the stadium in Denver Holiday is a great player and really all said and done would be a upgrade over Bay. I think we saw the best we could see from Bay who was playing for a contract. Holiday we saw the worst in Oakland a notorious hitters park. I think he would do well in Fenway and is a better fielder. But, it sounds like Epstein may just sit tight and not sign any of these guys but instead bring back Coco crisp to platoon with Jeremy Heredia. Sox fans should brace for 2006 all over again.
Sox have been here, said that - Tony Massarotti sports blog - Boston.com

yeah...i saw that earlier. poopey. i don't think this franchise with its resources should ever be in a "bridge" year. particularly not a "bridge year" to guys who are in SINGLE A right now and we're still not sure if they'll pan out.

oh well, if that's the case at least i won't have to pay to go to the ballpark or spent a ton of time getting invested in the team.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Honestly, I'd rather they come up with a backup solution then overpay for something that's going to be a problem in a few years.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Honestly, I'd rather they come up with a backup solution then overpay for something that's going to be a problem in a few years.

meaning what (and i ask that honestly)??

a backup-solution is fine, but if you as much as raise a white flag before the season starts and say "this is a bridge year...don't expect anything" then i dunno how you get fans excited. at least speaking for me personally i have enough else competing for my attention that if the team isn't going to be competitive and have the potential to go deep into the postseason then i would rather spend my time doing other things.

And if that somehow makes me a "fair weather fan" in somebody's eyes (not saying you Ronnie), then fuck you very much. I don't ask them to win the World Series every year or anything, just try. Just put in the effort. If they don't want to do that, then I don't think it's a horrible thing for me to say "I have other more rewarding ways to spend my time." It's a transaction - they try to win and I reward them with my $$ or my eyeballs. If they as an organization don't put forth a level of effort that I feel is commensurate with their stature and their financial weight, then I don't feel an obligation to pour my time down the figurative drain (162 games x 4 hours a game = a shitload of time).

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Honestly, I'd rather they come up with a backup solution then overpay for something that's going to be a problem in a few years.

I agree but there version of backup solutions are platooning with a pair of washed mid 30 outfileders in Hererdia and Crisp good god no. And their pitcher to add maybe Tim Harden Halladay I hate to say it will be wearing a Yankees uni for the next 5 years.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

at least speaking for me personally i have enough else competing for my attention that if the team isn't going to be competitive and have the potential to go deep into the postseason then i would rather spend my time doing other things.

Considering they average a sell out at Fenway and they've still got the highest rated local TV of any team (and would still be the highest rated if they took another 7% drop) I'm going to take a shot in the dark here & guess they'll be okay with that

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Considering they average a sell out at Fenway and they've still got the highest rated local TV of any team (and would still be the highest rated if they took another 7% drop) I'm going to take a shot in the dark here & guess they'll be okay with that

I'm sure they would be. I'm just stating my position...and I think it's pretty understandable.

They also do need to be aware as an organization though that that's something they have to keep an eye on. The days of the 80's when they didn't sell out every game at Fenway and they weren't crazy-popular aren't so far gone that they are immune to them I wouldn't think.

NESN probably helps mitigate that a lot, but not entirely I wouldn't think.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

meaning what (and i ask that honestly)??

a backup-solution is fine, but if you as much as raise a white flag before the season starts and say "this is a bridge year...don't expect anything" then i dunno how you get fans excited. at least speaking for me personally i have enough else competing for my attention that if the team isn't going to be competitive and have the potential to go deep into the postseason then i would rather spend my time doing other things.

And if that somehow makes me a "fair weather fan" in somebody's eyes (not saying you Ronnie), then fuck you very much. I don't ask them to win the World Series every year or anything, just try. Just put in the effort. If they don't want to do that, then I don't think it's a horrible thing for me to say "I have other more rewarding ways to spend my time." It's a transaction - they try to win and I reward them with my $$ or my eyeballs. If they as an organization don't put forth a level of effort that I feel is commensurate with their stature and their financial weight, then I don't feel an obligation to pour my time down the figurative drain (162 games x 4 hours a game = a shitload of time).

Agreed. I am surprised they would tip their hand to the Yanks especially by letting them know help yourself we are ona diet at the serving line?

[dawgfan]

I'm a little disappointed to see that the Rangers are closing in on what looks like a very reasonable deal on Rich Harden ($7.5M) - not sure why the M's aren't the ones closing such a deal with him given a) need, b) Harden's ties to the area, and c) the entirely reasonable financial terms.

[JS19]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I'm a little disappointed to see that the Rangers are closing in on what looks like a very reasonable deal on Rich Harden ($7.5M) - not sure why the M's aren't the ones closing such a deal with him given a) need, b) Harden's ties to the area, and c) the entirely reasonable financial terms.

Makes sense considering they just dealt Millwood. I wish the Mets went after Harden, especially for this price. Guy is dominant when he stays healthy, I know that's a big if, but he's worth a shot.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Gammon has annoyed me. The way he was a PR person for the Red Sox was tiresome and he seemed to have grown quite a hatred for the statistical community in recent years.

Despite that, the guy did a lot for baseball sportswriting (which could also be bad or good I guess).

+2

As someone posted on Royals Review: "The funny thing is, this will have no appreciable effect on his life or his work. All he ever does is talk to and about the Yankees and the Red Sox anyway, so why not be rid of the (admittedly very thin) veneer of journalistic neutrality needed to work for ESPN?"

SI

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by JS19

Makes sense considering they just dealt Millwood. I wish the Mets went after Harden, especially for this price. Guy is dominant when he stays healthy, I know that's a big if, but he's worth a shot.

I think they dealt Millwood to clear room in the budget for Harden - at least that's what's been reported from some sites.

1 year at $7.5M is an entirely reasonable roll of the dice on a guy with Harden's ability. Yeah, he's a risk given his injury history, but that's not a lot of money, relatively speaking. I wonder how much of a buyout there is on the 2nd year option - seems highly one-sided if it's just the club option for $11.5M. Maybe there are a lot of incentives that can lock in a much higher 2nd year salary and come with an expensive buyout?

Given Harden's ties to the area, the advantages to his numbers of pitching in Safeco in front of our OF defense and the M's greater competitiveness potential than Texas, and I'm rather surprised Zduriencik wasn't the one to get him signed. I have to assume there are some unreported parts to the deal that Z wasn't comfortable with...

[Terps]

Millwood trade is pretty good for the O's. He'll give them 200 innings and take some of the load off the bullpen and the younger pitchers.

Getting him and cash for Ray is a steal, IMO... Even if Ray returns to form, which I doubt he will.

Now go bring Bedard back to Baltimore.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Gammons has annoyed me. The way he was a PR person for the Red Sox was tiresome and he seemed to have grown quite a hatred for the statistical community in recent years.

Despite that, the guy did a lot for baseball sportswriting (which could also be bad or good I guess).

I don't get the hate for Gammons. He clearly was the classier Red Sox version of Jon Heyman, but as long as you knew that he was entertaining to read and had very good sources. He might not have been as good as Joe Posnanski the last 5/10 years, but considering what he did to build up the industry he was still one of the better ones out there.

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

yeah...i saw that earlier. poopey. i don't think this franchise with its resources should ever be in a "bridge" year. particularly not a "bridge year" to guys who are in SINGLE A right now and we're still not sure if they'll pan out.

I didn't realize Reddick and Kalish were in SINGLE A (Westmoreland yes. Casey Kelly is overrated and I hope he is a centerpiece in a trade for Gonzalez, Fielder, or Hernandez). Theo, and effectively the Red Sox ownership, has said their goal is to realistically compete for the WS 8 out of 10 years every decade. Considering the dead weight we're carrying in Ortiz and Lowell and the lack of more than one true middle of the order power bat, we're likely at 1 of the 2 "rebuilding" years - where we'll probably still win 85+ games and compete for the WC at a minimum. Your solution is what... extend a long contract to Bay or Holliday so they can play the role of 2009 Mike Lowell in 3 years, send most of our best prospects for Halladay (who would then likely be extended and signal the departure of Beckett when his contract ends) and throw everything at this year while decreasing our chances the next 5? Sure I'd like to beat the Yankees every year, and I certainly don't want to go into a Marlins cycle of 4 terrible years for 1 shot at the WS, but we are 70-80 million dollars short of the Yankees on payroll and revenue. The only chance we have to match them on the field is by having 4-5 all-star caliber players being significantly underpaid in their pre-arb years (in 2007 it was Pedroia, Youkilis, Lester, Papelbon, to a lesser extent Ellsbury) to supplement the high-priced superstars (Ramirez, Ortiz, Beckett, Schilling). I agree they messed up by not overbidding 2-3m/y for Teixeira (how Duquette got Manny), but it doesn't change the fact that you need to surround those guys with multiple quality starters developed from within.

Originally Posted by Galaril

I agree but there version of backup solutions are platooning with a pair of washed mid 30 outfileders in Hererdia and Crisp good god no. And their pitcher to add maybe Tim Harden Halladay I hate to say it will be wearing a Yankees uni for the next 5 years.

Do you actually know who any of these players are? Crisp turned 30 last month, Hermida is 25, was a top 10 prospect 3 years ago and had an .870 OPS in a hitters park as a 23y/o. If we gave him a full season of at-bats there's a decent (15-20%?) chance he turns into a middle of the order bat that we got on the cheap - kind of like how we lucked into David Ortiz. Rich Harden, when (and that's a big if) healthy is a borderline Cy Young candidate. Considering we already have 2 #1's we're paying 12m+ (plus a potential #1 in Buchholz), signing Harden and hoping he's healthy for a full year is much, much smarter than trading for Halladay and giving him a big-money extension. If Halladay only wants a 5-year extension he'll be 38 at the end of it. I know he's a power pitcher and some of those guys can keep going strong until that age (especially if they, I mean their wife, take lots of steroids) but I'd think long and hard about giving him an 18m a year contract until then, let alone trading prospects for him.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Casey Kelly is overrated and I hope he is a centerpiece in a trade for Gonzalez, Fielder, or Hernandez).

In a completely non-snarky way I am interested in how you've developed this opinion.

[DaddyTorgo]

nah - i don't want Halladay for the price that the Jays are asking.

but holliday is 29 and bay is what...just turned 30? neither of them have the body of a david ortiz...both should presumably still be productive at the end of a 5 year deal (albeit likely overpaid, but that's the way it works with FA contracts). maybe they're looking ahead to next year's FA class - but in my mind that's always risky because you can never be certain who will resign between now and then.

not sure i see bucholz as a potential #1 anymore...jury is still very much out on him.

[DaddyTorgo]

INDIANAPOLIS -- The Boston Red Sox have reached a preliminary agreement to trade third baseman Mike Lowell to the Texas Rangers for catcher Max Ramirez, sources told ESPN.

The Red Sox will pay $9 million of Lowell's $12 million salary. The trade was first reported by FoxSports.com.

Man, they must be REALLY high on this Ramirez guy! That or Theo was smoking something.

I'm all for moving Lowell, but eating $9mil of his $12m salary only saves you $3m plus you need to find a guy to play 3B (i'd say they want to move youk there and play VMart at 1B but they have told him he'll be the catcher I guess). All for a guy with a .217 average in 46 AB's.

[DaddyTorgo]

*sigh* Apparently the Sox interest in Beltre is "significant."

Lord save us all.

[DaddyTorgo]

hahah



The Twins designated right-hander Boof Bonser for assignment on Tuesday to make room for Carl Pavano on the 40-man roster. MLB.com


Carl Pavano is the gift that keeps on giving. First he gets us Pedro. Then he gives up one run in a complete game win against the Yankees in the 2003 World Series. Then he gets the Yankees to pay him 40 million dollars for 26 mostly sucktacular starts. Finally, he nets the Red Sox the guy with the greatest porn name in the history of baseball. Awesome.

One could argue that no one person has been more valuable to the Red Sox than Carl Pavano over the past 12 years. He's cemented his place in Red Sox history as the most valuable ex-Red Sox ever. He's the Jimmy Carter of Red Sox history.

[lungs]

I guess I don't understand the love for Rich Harden in this thread and elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I do realize he is very talented and has put up some decent numbers but some of the warts he has turn me off. I've argued in circles with some Brewer fans disgusted that we signed Randy Wolf over Rich Harden.

Basically, Harden is a reliever that people keep using as a starter. He is a two pitch pitcher these days after abandoning his slider to keep the stress on his arm down. His maximum effort repertoire leads to a fair amount of walks and a high amount of strikeouts which leads to high pitch counts early in games. He averages less than six innings per start so he'll tax your bullpen. Then throw in his injury history and I just don't get the love for this guy as a starter.

Soon enough, somebody will see the light and turn him into a reliever, a role I feel he could be very dominant in. Until then, he'll be a five inning starter that walks too many guys and you can't necessarily rely on every fifth day.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Max Ramirez was a pretty nice C prospect until his injury-plagued last year. Describing him as "a guy with a .217 average in 46 AB's" is not really painting the whole picture.

[Young Drachma]

In the old days of Diamond Notes, Gammons was a class act. Really informative and a journalist when that term has pretty much gone to waste. In recent years, he's become more of a celeb like most of ESPN, but...I think the guy has earned it after getting over what he did, his Hall of Fame credentials and so forth. We'll never see him now, but I'm sure when you've worked as hard as he has for a while, you deserve to go out on your terms...

He did good work for a good long while. But they weren't using him anything like they used to, because the medium has changed a lot even in the past decade.

As for the Halladay trade, I don't even want to think about it. I might just adopt his new team, especially if they're in the NL.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Man, they must be REALLY high on this Ramirez guy! That or Theo was smoking something.

I'm all for moving Lowell, but eating $9mil of his $12m salary only saves you $3m plus you need to find a guy to play 3B (i'd say they want to move youk there and play VMart at 1B but they have told him he'll be the catcher I guess). All for a guy with a .217 average in 46 AB's.

Weird trade, but Lowell is pretty useless at this point. Everybody else obviously thinks so too.

Ramirez seems like he's a decent backup catcher prospect, and even he did more offensively than Varitek last year. I wonder if Varitek even makes the team at this point.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Max Ramirez was a pretty nice C prospect until his injury-plagued last year. Describing him as "a guy with a .217 average in 46 AB's" is not really painting the whole picture.

fair enough. digging deeper it seems he was injured last year and had hit .299 through 1800 A and AA AB's. So maybe he was just rushed. Maybe he'll be useful...I dunno.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Just so everyone knows, Mike Jacobs was just released by the Royals. If you need a Rob Deer impersonator, he's your man.

[Dr. Sak]

Word is that the Phillies and the Angels are considered the frontrunners for Halladay. Phillies have offered Happ and one of two stud outfield prospects (Brown or Taylor). The Phils would probably have to get rid of Blanton in order to be able to fit Halladay (and his new contract) into the payroll.

[DaddyTorgo]

Halladay in the NL would be absolutely filthy. He might be able to rival Pedro's great-run here in Boston.

In fact, from a career longevity standpoint it's probably the best idea for him.

[Dr. Sak]

I just drool thinking of a rotation of Halladay, Lee, and Hamels.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I don't get the hate for Gammons. He clearly was the classier Red Sox version of Jon Heyman, but as long as you knew that he was entertaining to read and had very good sources. He might not have been as good as Joe Posnanski the last 5/10 years, but considering what he did to build up the industry he was still one of the better ones out there.I didn't realize Reddick and Kalish were in SINGLE A (Westmoreland yes. Casey Kelly is overrated and I hope he is a centerpiece in a trade for Gonzalez, Fielder, or Hernandez). Theo, and effectively the Red Sox ownership, has said their goal is to realistically compete for the WS 8 out of 10 years every decade. Considering the dead weight we're carrying in Ortiz and Lowell and the lack of more than one true middle of the order power bat, we're likely at 1 of the 2 "rebuilding" years - where we'll probably still win 85+ games and compete for the WC at a minimum. Your solution is what... extend a long contract to Bay or Holliday so they can play the role of 2009 Mike Lowell in 3 years, send most of our best prospects for Halladay (who would then likely be extended and signal the departure of Beckett when his contract ends) and throw everything at this year while decreasing our chances the next 5? Sure I'd like to beat the Yankees every year, and I certainly don't want to go into a Marlins cycle of 4 terrible years for 1 shot at the WS, but we are 70-80 million dollars short of the Yankees on payroll and revenue. The only chance we have to match them on the field is by having 4-5 all-star caliber players being significantly underpaid in their pre-arb years (in 2007 it was Pedroia, Youkilis, Lester, Papelbon, to a lesser extent Ellsbury) to supplement the high-priced superstars (Ramirez, Ortiz, Beckett, Schilling). I agree they messed up by not overbidding 2-3m/y for Teixeira (how Duquette got Manny), but it doesn't change the fact that you need to surround those guys with multiple quality starters developed from within.Do you actually know who any of these players are? Crisp turned 30 last month, Hermida is 25, was a top 10 prospect 3 years ago and had an .870 OPS in a hitters park as a 23y/o. If we gave him a full season of at-bats there's a decent (15-20%?) chance he turns into a middle of the order bat that we got on the cheap - kind of like how we lucked into David Ortiz. Rich Harden, when (and that's a big if) healthy is a borderline Cy Young candidate. Considering we already have 2 #1's we're paying 12m+ (plus a potential #1 in Buchholz), signing Harden and hoping he's healthy for a full year is much, much smarter than trading for Halladay and giving him a big-money extension. If Halladay only wants a 5-year extension he'll be 38 at the end of it. I know he's a power pitcher and some of those guys can keep going strong until that age (especially if they, I mean their wife, take lots of steroids) but I'd think long and hard about giving him an 18m a year contract until then, let alone trading prospects for him.

Yeah thanks for the stats. I stand corrected on their ages. Coco plays like a 33 year old at times. Heredia is a high risk high reward guy and Crisp is well a guy that wasn't good enough to keep a few years ago what has changed. On the bright side when you finish up school you will have a great future as a VP with the Sox rationalizing all the weird transactions Epstein makes for the fan bases consumption.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I just drool thinking of a rotation of Halladay, Lee, and Hamels.

fuck me that would be sweet

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Halladay in the NL would be absolutely filthy. He might be able to rival Pedro's great-run here in Boston.

In fact, from a career longevity standpoint it's probably the best idea for him.

Too true. He would Steve Carlton like out there. As long the f#$%ing Yankees don't get him.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Braves deal Rafael Soriano to Tampa for reliever Jesse Chavez. Atlanta had to find a trade for him after he unexpectedly accepted arbitration earlier in the week but had no role (and certainly not a $7m role) with the additions of Wagner & Saito.

Soriano traded to Rays for reliever Chavez *| ajc.com

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Braves deal Rafael Soriano to Tampa for reliever Jesse Chavez. Atlanta had to find a trade for him after he unexpectedly accepted arbitration earlier in the week but had no role (and certainly not a $7m role) with the additions of Wagner & Saito.

Soriano traded to Rays for reliever Chavez *| ajc.com

Isn't this Soriano's 4th team or something? I recall when he was quite a hot prospect...

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Too true. He would Steve Carlton like out there. As long the f#$%ing Yankees don't get him.

Heh...obviouisly, the Yankees are the Yankees, so your above statement is very true. That said, you wouldn't mind if he went to the Angels?

FWIW, the deal being tossed around for him from the Angels (Joe Saunders, Erick Aybar, Peter Bourjos), while containing some pieces I would rather not see go, I would do that, especially if the Angels got clearance to work otu an extension with him first (not sure if that's in the cards).

They would have to figure out what to do at SS, though (or at 3B, if they start Wood at SS), and they would still need to get a fifth starter (or resign themselves to throwing a kid out there every fifth day).

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

(or resign themselves to throwing a kid out there every fifth day).

So, pretty much last year's plan?

SI

[JS19]

Originally Posted by lungs

I guess I don't understand the love for Rich Harden in this thread and elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I do realize he is very talented and has put up some decent numbers but some of the warts he has turn me off. I've argued in circles with some Brewer fans disgusted that we signed Randy Wolf over Rich Harden.

Basically, Harden is a reliever that people keep using as a starter. He is a two pitch pitcher these days after abandoning his slider to keep the stress on his arm down. His maximum effort repertoire leads to a fair amount of walks and a high amount of strikeouts which leads to high pitch counts early in games. He averages less than six innings per start so he'll tax your bullpen. Then throw in his injury history and I just don't get the love for this guy as a starter.

Soon enough, somebody will see the light and turn him into a reliever, a role I feel he could be very dominant in. Until then, he'll be a five inning starter that walks too many guys and you can't necessarily rely on every fifth day.

Well put. I fall into the category of thinking Harden is a worthwhile candidate for a staff, I think it's just that with pitching at such a premium in MLB, it's hard to ignore the potential he brings to the table, especially at the relatively low price he is signing for.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Heh...obviouisly, the Yankees are the Yankees, so your above statement is very true. That said, you wouldn't mind if he went to the Angels?

FWIW, the deal being tossed around for him from the Angels (Joe Saunders, Erick Aybar, Peter Bourjos), while containing some pieces I would rather not see go, I would do that, especially if the Angels got clearance to work otu an extension with him first (not sure if that's in the cards).

They would have to figure out what to do at SS, though (or at 3B, if they start Wood at SS), and they would still need to get a fifth starter (or resign themselves to throwing a kid out there every fifth day).

No you guys can have em

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JS19

Well put. I fall into the category of thinking Harden is a worthwhile candidate for a staff, I think it's just that with pitching at such a premium in MLB, it's hard to ignore the potential he brings to the table, especially at the relatively low price he is signing for.

Of course I've been looking at Harden through Brewers lenses. The Brewers had one of the worst starting staffs in the league last year, if not the worst. I thought signing a guy like Randy Wolf was much preferred to signing a guy like Harden. Wolf won't put up dazzling numbers like Harden has the potential to do, but at the same time Wolf is no slouch.

I've considered myself a stats guy for a long time but people keep throwing me these projections that Wolf and Harden will end up with the same WAR even though Harden projects to throw a lot less innings than Wolf because Harden's work will be higher quality. But I keep throwing out the fact that Harden on average is a 5-6 inning pitcher and and will tax the bullpen tremendously. Does WAR take that into account?

I love stats and put a great amount of stock into them but sometimes people just take them too literally and look at things in too much of a vacuum as if each individual player is on his own and not part of a collective entity that is a baseball team.

Nobody on here is doing that, but I'm talking about a Brewer site I visit and post where if I posted what I just posted I'd get jumped on as being anti-intellectual when in fact I'm quite the stats nerd myself.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

hahah



The Twins designated right-hander Boof Bonser for assignment on Tuesday to make room for Carl Pavano on the 40-man roster. MLB.com


Carl Pavano is the gift that keeps on giving. First he gets us Pedro. Then he gives up one run in a complete game win against the Yankees in the 2003 World Series. Then he gets the Yankees to pay him 40 million dollars for 26 mostly sucktacular starts. Finally, he nets the Red Sox the guy with the greatest porn name in the history of baseball. Awesome.

One could argue that no one person has been more valuable to the Red Sox than Carl Pavano over the past 12 years. He's cemented his place in Red Sox history as the most valuable ex-Red Sox ever. He's the Jimmy Carter of Red Sox history.

Trautwein's?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Trautwein's?

hmm? just an amusing post i saw over on SOSH. thought it was pretty funny.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

So, pretty much last year's plan?

SI

Yup.

That decision in a roundabout way just ended up with the Angels giving in and acquiring Kazmir. Just a continuing shame about Adenhart. I am certain, with how much talent he had and how he started off the season, Adenhart would have settled that matter just fine.

The Angels best young pitchers are a year closer now, and the ones they used last year are at least broken in and maybe more ready for a role on the big league club.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Galaril

No you guys can have em

Woot! Get it done, Reagins!

[Dr. Sak]

.

Move over Boston and New York, two front runners have reportedly emerged for Toronto Blue Jays ace Roy Halladay.

According to a Fox Sports report, the Philadelphia Phillies and Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim have stepped up their quest to acquire Halladay, who both teams tried to add last July at the non-waiver trade deadline.

The Phillies are said to be including pitcher J.A. Happ, and either outfield prospect Domonic Brown or Michael Taylor in their offer.

The Angels package is believed to include pitcher Joe Saunders, shortstop Erick Aybar and outfield prospect Peter Bourjos.

The report also suggest that if the Jays and Angels make a deal, that the Jays would likely try to flip Joe Saunders to another club to help fill other needs.

In a separate report, the New York Daily News says that there is a chance that left-handed pitcher Cole Hamels could be included in a Halladay deal.

Halladay would have to approve any deal because of his no-trade clause, and any team that acquires him would more than likely want him to sign an extension before any deal would be completed. For Halladay to agree to a deal with the Angels, he would have to train in Arizona, which is reportedly a sticking point.

The 32-year old went 17-10 last season with a 2.79 ERA. He threw a league-leading nine complete games and racked up an impressive 239 innings pitched.

Halladay has a 148-76 career record with a 3.43 ERA. He won the American League Cy Young award in 2003 and has finished in the top five in Cy Young voting four other times.

[RedKingGold]

Put our name on the trophy if we get Halladay....(assuming we stay healthy)

[Logan]

...Roy Halladay
Raul Ibanez
RedKingGold
Jimmy Rollins...

Got it.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

In a completely non-snarky way I am interested in how you've developed this opinion.

It depends on just how highly he is being rated. I think his ceiling is a #2/3. His dominant numbers have come in large part because of great command, which is obviously fantastic, but has less projectability and regresses some at the higher levels like Bowden has. So he is a great prospect, and probably deserves to be around #50 in the minors, but if he's being put up in the top 20 and talked about as a future ace his value is likely to never be higher (see Lars Anderson last offseason). He's also a pitching prospect in single A - TNSTAAP and all. There's a reason why Westmoreland is the one untouchable in the system and Buchholz is the pitcher Toronto asked for first. I'm not even sure Kelly deserves to be higher than Reddick, Lars, Bowden or Kalish, but people tend to get enamored of the newest shiny thing (helloooooo Jose Iglesias!).

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

*sigh* Apparently the Sox interest in Beltre is "significant."

Lord save us all.

Beltre would be fantastic between his defense, home/road splits, and Type B status.

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I would do that, especially if the Angels got clearance to work otu an extension with him first (not sure if that's in the cards).

I don't get the reluctance of Toronto to offer a 72-hour window to negotiate an extension. Unless they think Halladay will be outrageous in his demands and scare off suitors.

Originally Posted by Galaril

Yeah thanks for the stats. I stand corrected on their ages. Coco plays like a 33 year old at times. Heredia is a high risk high reward guy and Crisp is well a guy that wasn't good enough to keep a few years ago what has changed. On the bright side when you finish up school you will have a great future as a VP with the Sox rationalizing all the weird transactions Epstein makes for the fan bases consumption.

Shurg. Talk about Heredia as a mid-30's washed up player, keep insisting Coco - who has made a living the past few years sacrificing his body and playing great defense - plays like a 33y/o. I can see why fans are pissed if we're not going after one of the two proven stud LF'ers on the market and going with a platoon - like you said we got rid of Coco because he wasn't good enough for that role 2 years ago (and we got a decent reliever) - but at least don't get your facts completely wrong.

Originally Posted by lungs

Of course I've been looking at Harden through Brewers lenses. The Brewers had one of the worst starting staffs in the league last year, if not the worst. I thought signing a guy like Randy Wolf was much preferred to signing a guy like Harden. Wolf won't put up dazzling numbers like Harden has the potential to do, but at the same time Wolf is no slouch.

I've considered myself a stats guy for a long time but people keep throwing me these projections that Wolf and Harden will end up with the same WAR even though Harden projects to throw a lot less innings than Wolf because Harden's work will be higher quality. But I keep throwing out the fact that Harden on average is a 5-6 inning pitcher and and will tax the bullpen tremendously. Does WAR take that into account?

I think the value of Harden depends on the team and you're correct from a Brewers perspective. The Red Sox (or other big market clubs) are used to having 6-7 starters ready to go and expecting guys to go on the DL during the year, so it's worth the risk/reward. Meanwhile the Brewers can't afford to be wrong and should take the guy who projects to pitch 200+ innings and hope he turns in a Javier Vasquez season.