Soccer Thread 2022-2023

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

If England beats the USA, England will need just a scoreless draw against Wales to win the group, whilst in that scenario if Wales has already beaten Iran, Wales will need just a scoreless draw against England to take second place, regardless of what the USA does to Iran. It probably didn't cross their (Wales') minds during the game, but that's a possible scenario.

When the score was even, Wales seemed completely uninterested in the opposing goal. I'm sure their porpoise from the opening moment of the match was to gain that draw for exactly that reason.

Not sure England will cooperate. They have a lot of weapons and a major inferiority complex when it comes to international play. Ninety minutes is a long time, even sitting down. Either way, I doubt the second-place team gets past the round of 16.

Certainly hate that new tie-breaker. The sport already suffers from far too much necessary dependence on the referees. They have an impossible job. Why add another layer of dependence?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

When the score was even, Wales seemed completely uninterested in the opposing goal. I'm sure their porpoise from the opening moment of the match was to gain that draw for exactly that reason.

Not sure England will cooperate. They have a lot of weapons and a major inferiority complex when it comes to international play. Ninety minutes is a long time, even sitting down. Either way, I doubt the second-place team gets past the round of 16.

Maybe that was their goal all along. Although it's a clear mistake to underestimate Iran and think they'll be a pushover. It's quite likely Wales was just being the Wales team from the recent European Championships: just playing not to lose, regardless the opponent.

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Certainly hate that new tie-breaker. The sport already suffers from far too much necessary dependence on the referees. They have an impossible job. Why add another layer of dependence?

It's not brand new, it was introduced at the World Cup 2018 as the last tie-breaker before drawing of lots (I just looked at the regulations for the 2014 and 2018 tournaments to confirm this). It was also in place during the UEFA European Championships 2020/2021, as the next to last tie-breaker. But it is indeed a somewhat recent novelty. If it was introduced as a means to promote fair play, it sounds great, but the Neymar jrs. of this world are disgusting abusers of this rule and try to smear half a dozen yellow cards onto their opponents.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Pulisic dominates games for a while - he created the goal and Weah, for a shocking change given the US lately, put it away deftly. And then for long, long periods of time (the entire second half) all he seems to do is lie on the ground and gesture at the referee. If he wasn't such a poor sport, he might be one of the great ones.

I will defend Pulisic. I thought he played very well for most of the match. It was just him and Weah being the offensive threats today. As far as the gesturing to the ref and lying on the ground, I get his frustration. I thought for sure someone on the USMNT was going to get sent off. He started off very strict with the cards especially with USMNT and then allowed both teams to rough each other after the initial cards. I thought the one on Dest was soft. I am not blaming the ref for the result but I understand why after seeing the early cards why Pulisic would be upset when stronger challenges were deemed to be legal. No need to get into the debacle at the back. I thought USMNT really suffered for not having a true striker out there.

[RainMaker]

I thought Pulisic was proving a point. They were stopping play when players went down for non-head related injuries. Then the ref just stopped doing that.

He was definitely not ready for an event like the World Cup but FIFA needs to absolutely fellate Qatar every chance they get.

[RainMaker]

I also wouldn't mark the Iran match as a win quite yet. They are bad, but the US has a habit of playing down to their competition, especially under Berhalter.

I weirdly have more confidence in them drawing England than I do beating Iran.

[bob]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

When the score was even, Wales seemed completely uninterested in the opposing goal. I'm sure their porpoise from the opening moment of the match was to gain that draw for exactly that reason.

Not sure England will cooperate.

Right, that seems like a lot to assume.

[Solecismic]

I'll introduce another question - hopefully those of you who watch a lot more than I do can answer this easily.

Every set piece Wales had seemed dangerous. Crowding in front of the net, took decent play from the goaltender (I thought Turner had a good game, maybe even a great one under the circumstances) to save the result.

Every set piece the US had seemed trivial. Corners were line-drived into the opposition, few players seemingly interested in moving forward. Free kicks might as well have been throw-ins.

This doesn't seem normal. Does it take extraordinary coaching or players specifically to turn set-pieces into threats? Or is the US team and/or coaching staff simply awful in this category.

[RainMaker]

Pulisic seemed pretty bad at delivering them today and its really not his steength. Their best set pieces taker is Gio but he didn't play for some reason.

[SirFozzie]

Well now, If this result holds, this has to be the biggest world cup upset in some years..

[PilotMan]

That was a crazy match. Very fun with some great entertaining soccer.

[Solecismic]

I wish the Telemundo station around here had more than a tiny, tiny range. No way to pick it up. Sorry to miss that match. Don't cry for me, though. Incredible story. Everyone was talking up Messi as man of the century going into this tournament.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I'll introduce another question - hopefully those of you who watch a lot more than I do can answer this easily.

Every set piece Wales had seemed dangerous. Crowding in front of the net, took decent play from the goaltender (I thought Turner had a good game, maybe even a great one under the circumstances) to save the result.

Every set piece the US had seemed trivial. Corners were line-drived into the opposition, few players seemingly interested in moving forward. Free kicks might as well have been throw-ins.

This doesn't seem normal. Does it take extraordinary coaching or players specifically to turn set-pieces into threats? Or is the US team and/or coaching staff simply awful in this category.

I would have to go back and really analyze all of the set pieces. For me, set pieces are all about coaching and that starts with the squad building. No need to swing anything into the box if the team has no one capable of beating the other team to the first ball. No need to create intricate set piece designs if the set piece taker can’t deliver the right ball. Pulisic definitely struggled in that aspect yesterday. However, everything I read indicates that he is the primary set piece taker for free kicks, corners and penalties. If that is not his strength and there are no other options in the team when he is not having a good day, that goes back to coaching.

[bob]

Did not wake up expecting to see that Saudi Arabia beat Argentina

[Ghost Econ]

Pulisic has been pretty shit at set pieces his entire career. Aaronson splits them with Jack Harrison at Leeds and his corners are generally pretty dangerous.

Our crossing was terrible yesterday. It wouldnt have mattered if we had 6 Keifer Moore's for the US, none of them were anywhere near a dangerous area.

Pulisic was gassed by halftime. Constantly getting swiped at and literally every attack was directed right to him. It's not like he went out of his way, he was literally the only outlet pass because Weah hugged the other line. If Gio couldn't spell him for 1/2 hour in game 1 then we should have kept him at home wrapped in bubble wrap.

Also, I don't get Serginho Dest? Every team in Europe wants him, but he always looks terrible. He offered nothing on defense and nothing going forward.

I assume we'll bunker on Friday and try to use Haji Wright as a target man, because if you go against 2 Easter island statues you might as well play to their strengths. If we could just get 1 game with a front 4 of Pulisic, Reyna, Weah and Aaronson to see what happens.

[Ksyrup]

Between Qatar hosting and getting force-fed Skip Bayless in between games, this is the most evil sporting event I've ever watched.

[HomerSimpson98]

Tunisia-Denmark was a fun game to watch, even if it was 0-0.



I thought the ref did a fantastic job during the match as well. Refreshing to also not see the players from either side rolling around and begging for fouls.

[Ksyrup]

That looked like an ACL, but we'll see.

[bob]

Disappointed in the Poland result. That group is in weird shape now

[Critch]

World Cup really tests your nationalistic prejudices.

Do I hate the frogs more than the convicts? Only one way to find out, make them play each other and see who I end up cheering for.

[Ksyrup]

I don't follow international anything. I assume if Japan was to get a draw that would be a big deal?

[Ksyrup]

OK. How about a win?

[sovereignstar v2]

Nice goal

[Ghost Econ]

Everyone on the US coaching staff should be embarrassed after seeing Saudi Arabia and Japan play.

[Critch]

Germany's plan to pass it around a lot while having no cutting edge and a terrible defense got found out.

[Ghost Econ]

If Navas isn't at the top of his game, Costa Rica is not going to be very competitive in this tourney.

[tzach]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Does it take extraordinary coaching or players specifically to turn set-pieces into threats? Or is the US team and/or coaching staff simply awful in this category.

coaching, players with specific skills and, as of recent, data analytics. the article below is an interesting read at an introductory level

Set Pieces and Market Efficiency - StatsBomb | Data Champions

and there's quite some research articles on all sorts of edges that can be gained (e.g. from throw-ins)

Just a moment...

and corner kicks

Just a moment...

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ

Everyone on the US coaching staff should be embarrassed after seeing Saudi Arabia and Japan play.

Why? What have they done to be responsible for how Argentina and Germany performed?

[MIJB#19]

One trend of this tournament: outrageous long injury/stoppage time.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

One trend of this tournament: outrageous long injury/stoppage time.

FIFA orders World Cup referees to add time at end of games

I am fine with it if it eventually causes teams to stop time wasting during the match. You want an extra 30 seconds here taking a throw in or a goal kick or an extra 2 minutes walking off for a substitution, the refs just has to add to the back end.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

FIFA orders World Cup referees to add time at end of games

I am fine with it if it eventually causes teams to stop time wasting during the match. You want an extra 30 seconds here taking a throw in or a goal kick or an extra 2 minutes walking off for a substitution, the refs just has to add to the back end.

Sure, sure, I didn't see it as a bad thing (or a good thing). Maybe "outrageous" wasn't the correct term, maybe "refreshingly unfamiliar" fits better? And in some cases "extremely unlucky".

[MIJB#19]

How on earth is that not a red card for Francisco Calvo. The referees for this match just earned an early flight back home.

[Ksyrup]

Why is this a debate? Surely with all the advanced metrics in sport it would be fairly easy to estimate "down time" to within a minute or so. 5 minutes OK, but calling what is ordinarly 5 minutes of stoppage time 8 or 9 minutes because it's World Cup is kinda stupid. It's either real stoppage time or it's artifically inflated.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Why is this a debate? Surely with all the advanced metrics in sport it would be fairly easy to estimate "down time" to within a minute or so. 5 minutes OK, but calling what is ordinarly 5 minutes of stoppage time 8 or 9 minutes because it's World Cup is kinda stupid. It's either real stoppage time or it's artifically inflated.

It was massively underdone previously. You'd have 5 minutes for subs, 5 for injuries/'injuries', 5 for discussions after fouls/making the wall,then have 3 minutes stoppage time.
The problem, if you don't want the clock to stop NFL style, is figuring out what stoppage 'counts' and what is 'normal'. In an average Bundesliga match the ball is in play about 55 minutes (60 in Bayern Matches, 50 in Cologne matches). Obviously that doesn't mean you add on 35 (technically more because there'll be further stoppages ).
I haven't watched a game yet (little interest + work) but i would guess what is done is accounting for stoppages due to injuries/substitutions more strictly.

[Ghost Econ]

That Davies penalty was as bad as Pulisic's set pieces.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Why is this a debate? Surely with all the advanced metrics in sport it would be fairly easy to estimate "down time" to within a minute or so. 5 minutes OK, but calling what is ordinarly 5 minutes of stoppage time 8 or 9 minutes because it's World Cup is kinda stupid. It's either real stoppage time or it's artifically inflated.

As whomario, stoppage time has been significantly miscalculated on the low end in the club game IMO. There shouldn't be an "ordinarily" assigned time i.e. 30 seconds for each sub made in the game. A left back who is subbed out and walks all the way across the field to where the fourth official stands with the board is to high five his teammate before going off should not have the same added time as one who walks off as the closest sideline. Add in all the lengthy goal kicks, diving, arguing with the match officials etc., 8-9 minutes is probably closer to what should be added in most club matches.

Let's be honest though, that does mess with the normal TV match schedule and not sure the networks will be appreciative of that.

[miami_fan]

Speaking of proper stoppage time, I don't know if they mentioned it on the broadcast but the match official for the Belgium vs Canada match is the same guy who ended an AFCON match at the 85 minute mark and the 89 minute mark after suffering from heat stroke and very severe dehydration.

[Edward64]

I love the pic but am unsure when protesting (something) is "over the line". I think the answer is the definition of "over the line" is relative depending on one's perspective and pretty subjective.

Germany players pose with their hands covering their mouths as they line up for the team's photo prior to the World Cup game against Japan.

[cubboyroy1826]

Regarding the US corners I agree Pulisic did not have a good day. Not sure he is the right person to take those. One other thing was I don't recall seeing Zimmerman upfront for the corners. Throughout the MLS season he was pretty good getting his head on corners. It didn't seem we had anyone challenging for the ball although the corners served up were not all that great.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I love the pic but am unsure when protesting (something) is "over the line". I think the answer is the definition of "over the line" is relative depending on one's perspective and pretty subjective.

Over the line is only when you lose a match to a far less talented squad because your opponent outworked you and earned every last minute of their celebration.

Then you can pin the blame on anything you like.

Honestly, given just how hard players have to work for decades to have the honor of wearing their country's colors, I don't see why they would allow themselves to be distracted by anything over the last month or so.

What are they protesting, anyway? They've had about 12 years to tell FIFA what they think about Qatar's human rights record. FIFA didn't care. Their executives pocketed millions and that was that - a shining endorsement of everything Qatar.

For players on a FIFA team to spend time caring about Qatari politics right now is the height of hypocrisy.

[tzach]

i couldn't agree more -- and to make things worse, most European countries are importing Qatari nat gas at record levels, thus funding the system.


coming back to soccer, what a difference it makes when you have a great goalkeeper like Belgium has.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

As whomario, stoppage time has been significantly miscalculated on the low end in the club game IMO. There shouldn't be an "ordinarily" assigned time i.e. 30 seconds for each sub made in the game. A left back who is subbed out and walks all the way across the field to where the fourth official stands with the board is to high five his teammate before going off should not have the same added time as one who walks off as the closest sideline. Add in all the lengthy goal kicks, diving, arguing with the match officials etc., 8-9 minutes is probably closer to what should be added in most club matches.

Let's be honest though, that does mess with the normal TV match schedule and not sure the networks will be appreciative of that.

With all the tracking of data down to the amount each player is running during the game, there's no reason this shouldn't be exactly how it works. Any time a player is down injured, a sub is being made or a player takes more than x at a dead ball (I'd suggest 15 seconds) the time should be tracked and added on.

This basically would stop time wasting in it's tracks. Or just go to the 60 minute running clock. Either would be a change for the TV networks but if they can live with it at the World Cup with 4 games a day, I don't really see an issue.

[Ksyrup]

That's what I'm say. Maybe they're getting it closer to right at World Cup but it's still not right in any scientific way. It sounds more like, no one gives enough stoppage time so double what you'd normally give during this tournament.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

What are they protesting, anyway? They've had about 12 years to tell FIFA what they think about Qatar's human rights record. FIFA didn't care. Their executives pocketed millions and that was that - a shining endorsement of everything Qatar.

For players on a FIFA team to spend time caring about Qatari politics right now is the height of hypocrisy.

Isn't this a bit like "Colin Kapernick needs to protest the right way"? Like those players could have said something over the last 12 years and would anyone have known or cared. Until they got on a big stage, no one would have noticed. Hey, look, people are noticing now. Of course, you could argue that it won't drive any change but it is driving visibility.

SI

[kingfc22]

100% what SI said. Ridiculous that what the German team did could be considered “over the line” or controversial.

They were making a statement. End of story.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

That's what I'm say. Maybe they're getting it closer to right at World Cup but it's still not right in any scientific way. It sounds more like, no one gives enough stoppage time so double what you'd normally give during this tournament.

If the aim was to get it exactly right in a more scientific way, they would take the time keeping out of the hand of the match officials and give it to a guy in a box upstairs who would stop and start the clock at any and every stoppage. That is the exact fix. I personally don't want that at all.

In theory, FIFA as the sport's world governing body, should be the one to govern games in its tournaments as close the laws of the game as possible. In theory, the expectation should be that the continental and league governing bodies move closer to FIFA's position, not the other way around.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Isn't this a bit like "Colin Kapernick needs to protest the right way"? Like those players could have said something over the last 12 years and would anyone have known or cared. Until they got on a big stage, no one would have noticed. Hey, look, people are noticing now. Of course, you could argue that it won't drive any change but it is driving visibility.

SI

I wouldn't compare it to Kaepernick. And I have no interest in discussing Kaepernick. So let's keep that straw man out of the burn pit.

I wouldn't claim that the German players crossed a line, either. They were extra-super careful not to cross one.

All I'm saying is that the issue is that a major business venture (FIFA) made the decision to hold the tournament in Qatar. Unless the objective is to go to war with Qatar, a peaceful, independent country, the Qataris live under a very different government than we do.

When FIFA chose Qatar, twelve years ago, to host the largest tournament in the sports world, it made a business decision. Players also make business decisions. They choose to play under FIFA's rules. One can argue that it's not much of a choice, in that if they reject FIFA, they won't have the opportunity to hone their skills against the best players in the world. But it's still a choice.

However, as members of FIFA, it's hypocrisy to support the decision until the stage is large enough that something so simple is considered at all meaningful. And that they've put time into creating a photo moment that has all the impact of a wet noodle slamming into a brick wall when it comes to influencing Qatar does open them up to criticism when they come up with a terrible effort in an important game.

What is protest? Obviously, there are various degrees. In Iran, people are risking death because women are essentially property and they want the next generation of women to have basic human rights. More often these days, protest is far more benign, even encouraged by the government, at which point it probably isn't protest at all.

Why? Because it implies giving something up in order to effect change. The German players didn't give anything up, and their audience is already 100% aware and in agreement. It was just a virtue signal. We're going to follow Qatar's rules so we can support FIFA and play in the biggest tournament in the world here, but we're not 100% selling out because we took the time to come up with this gesture. Like naughty schoolboys, I guess? Even they risk something because their behavior is impulsive rather than carefully choreographed and organized for the cameras.

When you take on governments, or you take on the corporations that support these governments, maybe you can effect change out there. It's not up to me to say what works and what doesn't work. But when you have a situation in which FIFA has agreed to heavily penalize teams that wear certain logos and you're playing in a FIFA tournament and it's FIFA's decision to enrich Qatar...

If you agree to play wearing FIFA's logo, you've already made your statement. You are running back and forth over the graves of countless slaves who died constructing these marvelous stadiums. You are not standing up for rights of any kind, other than your own right to hone your own talent and make millions doing it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

It was just a virtue signal.

Ding ding ding.

That it was so obviously phony is what mades them getting embarrassed on the pitch in close proximity to the stunt absolutely delightful to me.

[MIJB#19]

The 'statement' by the German team was their response to FIFA's 11th hour decision to ban the captain's arm band that several European teams have being wearing in official UEFA competitions this year in an effort to strengthen the anti-discrimination vibe that 'football' is trying to promote. Discrimination of all kinds is still a major problem in football stadiums. The only people that have the ability to influence it, are the players on the field. They are the biggest role models in the world. It's a change of times that players are willing to see that and while many mostly promote silliness on their social media non-sense, every now or then they try to be aware of having the means to do good as well.

FIFA out of the blue stamped the One Love band as a political statement and instead ordered teams to use FIFA's own "No discrimination" band that was worn by the USA and Wales captains. For crying out loud, FIFA has branded the word "Love" as being too political and to not be used in any form whatsoever. Additionally, warming up kits were banned because they were too colorful, hence a political statement in it's opinion. The way I understand it, this band has nothing to do with being anti-Qatar and also it isn't correct when people proclaim that band is pro-LHBTIQX (or whatever the flavor of the day abbreviation is), it's just as much about racism and freedom of religion.

The latter has been subject of quite the uproar in the Netherlands when the KNVB and the Eredivisie clubs picked a weekend where all captains would wear it and two of the 18 captains refused it because they felt that their religious beliefs were in conflict with it. They completely missed the point that the fact they can live in a country where their religion enriched life exists is because of freedom of religion, which makes it a moronic decision to not want to promote it.

But football is not about politics. FIFA claimed the World Cup will bring peace between the Ukraine and Russia (never mind that Russia got disqualified over their invasion of Ukraine, so why would Russia even care for this tournament?). We all know a "World" Cup is always about politics. Every border between countries continues to exist because the politicians in the bordering countries respect them. Hence Belgium and the Netherlands having separate teams.

/rant

Next match today, Ecuador. That's a "another cookie" as Van Gaal might say.

[Edward64]

Kinda funny but think (?) we can all agree this is over the line for a soccer match in Qatar. I can see how this will offend many.

World Cup 2022: England fans BANNED from dressing up as 'offensive' Crusaders for USA match | Daily Mail Online

England fans dressed as Crusaders with chainmail, shields and swords are stopped by security outside a stadium in Qatar

But don't know if this should really be an issue. If I had a team in this, I'd think this would be a cool souvenier.

Meanwhile, bars in Doha are demanding fans wearing traditional Arabic robes and headdress to remove them over fears it offends locals and insults Islam.

The clothing has become popular among fans and is being widely sold in the team colours of the 32 nations playing at the tournament.

[Solecismic]

US/Iran next week, likely to determine second place, with Iran playing for a draw. Interesting. No yellow cards for key players today. Maybe even rest them.