2022 and beyond Social Media Thread

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

He doesn't really believe any of that. For all of his talk and for all of the right wingers he's "freed" in the name of leveling the play field, he has shut down accounts of people on the other side who disagree with him or challenge/make fun of him, or who post about Twitter alternatives, or any other number of petty/vindicative things.

I guess a good question would be if someone was concerned about this when, as the reporting indicates, 97-99% of Twitter was on one side.

I don't get a good sense of where Musk is, politically. Obviously, some Libertarian in there, but he sure got on board quickly when the government wanted to support his car company.

How should one run a major web company? What service is Twitter providing? The online world would be so different without Section 230 or some similar protection. None of this would have been possible, because Twitter would be the publisher and somewhat responsible for the crime/libel/etc of its users. But is it a good thing or a bad thing?

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I don't get a good sense of where Musk is, politically. Obviously, some Libertarian in there, but he sure got on board quickly when the government wanted to support his car company.

Did you miss the part where he explicitly directed millions of folks to vote Republican?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Apparently higher than that (97-99% blue, based on political contributions). Since this story stems from inviting Bari Weiss and her team at Common Sense (now called The Free Press) to sit in a conference room for a week or so and use tools to search the Twitter archives, emails, Slack channels, etc, I'm inclined to listen to what they're reporting.

*chuckles to self*

[JPhillips]

I just checked Jack Dorsey on Open Secrets and out of 14 donations to Dems, ten were to Yang or Gabbard.

In 2016 Twitter Inc gave 250,000 to the GOP convention host committee.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples if you want to take the time to find them.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

*chuckles to self*

In fairness, they're probably explicitly disregarding the millions of Russian bots.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I guess a good question would be if someone was concerned about this when, as the reporting indicates, 97-99% of Twitter was on one side.

If you've spent any amount of time on Twitter and, God forbid, were stupid enough to wade into the comments of politically charged tweets, you'd know this is not accurate. I like to have different perspectives on my feed but I try to stay away from the Trumpers and conspiracy crackpots. Nevertheless, they manage to make their presence well known. But again, maybe this analysis is able to suss out the bots.

Also, to the point, Musk has made a series of unambiguous statements about what he will and will not do with Twitter that he has trampled all over the past few weeks. To the point where he explicitly stated he wouldn't shut down the account posting about his plane then rewrote the rules so that he could do just that. He's made dozens of blanket statements that he's contradicted by other tweets or actions. So attempting to engage in a serious thought exercise over his intentions is pretty naive and definitely useless.

[Solecismic]

The figure I used was sourced from Open Secrets the last three cycles (I checked the link, seems to be accurate) and referenced in today's story from The Free Press. I guess Bari Weiss is verboten? Who knew?

But more importantly, what she concludes is that if this sounds like a great thing, Musk revealing the discussions that led to what happened, isn't it inevitably simply trading one set of biases for another?

What are his politics? I don't know. This is what he wrote, and his spending seems to validate it, but he seems to be someone who enjoys tweaking people.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1559690651687608321

[GrantDawg]

If you make social media libel for everything anybody posts, there is really no way to have social media. They would basically have to read and approve every post to protect themselves. If you think the "Free Speech" people are mad now...
Btw, Bari Weiss has been attacking Twitter for years and even slammed it in her resignation at the New York Times. She is not an honest arbiter but someone with an ax to grind. She has always had a very slanted world view and not someone I would consider fair or open-minded.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

If you make social media libel for everything anybody posts, there is really no way to have social media. They would basically have to read and approve every post to protect themselves. If you think the "Free Speech" people are mad now...


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I was getting at exactly that. Section 230 was designed to remove that liability. OK, but if you have that special government protection, seems like you're leaning toward the libertarian end where individuals are solely responsible for their speech. That's the way it was at first. Then came moderators, and the question of bias in moderation. Problem? Well, these stories seem to show there's a problem. If you don't see the problem and you don't see that if the red/blue were reversed, it would really be the same problem, I don't know what to say.

But what if, instead, people had to register, prove their identity. Then if they post something that violates the law, it's easy to come after them. No moderation boards. Just you and the government and the First Amendment and the obvious exceptions. That's how it works with telephone companies, mobile services.

OK. Registration/proof means no more bot problem, a better self-filter if you're no longer protected by anonymity, but how do you make a company out of that? Who wants to advertise when you could be putting your company message next to something truly unpleasant?

That's where the boosting and keywords come into play. But if you boost, as a platform, you're really publishing in the end. There's no easy way to deal with social media. This is not a problem that can be solved easily.

When the Internet became big, the way to make serious money was to say, "what's getting views, what's getting people to pay to see? Now let's give it away for free and advertise on it." Maybe the answer is that if you want Section 230 protection, you have to have a service people would pay for or otherwise invest in. Easy to point out problems with that model, too.

[Solecismic]

Regarding your edit about Bari Weiss. I don't think her resignation letter was about Twitter itself. It was about internal problems at The New York Times and how they let the Twitter ethic (essentially populism) replace editorial judgment.

I've found her articles and those she publishes from other journalists to be remarkably free from slant. Others may disagree. If you don't agree with her points about the mainstream media losing its way, I can see where you wouldn't want to go to The Free Press and read anything.

I struggle to find anything worthwhile in journalism these days, and have been disappointed a lot in recent years. I don't agree with everything presented on her site, but so far, this is the most objective journalism I've seen out there. As always, I'll keep looking.

[GrantDawg]

Done O'Sulivan of CNN, Aaron Rupar and Drew Harwell of the Washington Post have all been suspend tonight. Free Speech. Sure.

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[Ksyrup]

Right on cue, it appears several reporters have been shut down for posting stuff critical of the plane account ban. Totally ridiculous.

Banning for misinformation and inciting violence versus banning for either posting about publicly available information or criticizing the site for not allowing the posting of publicly available information. Totally the same things...

[Ksyrup]

GD beat me to it. I just landed in Atlanta so I'm catching up!

[GrantDawg]

Also, The New York Times reporter and the Mashable reporter that covers Musk.

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[Ksyrup]

Elon Musk is a more intelligent version of Trump who trades the crassness for smarmy superiority but has the same ego, thin skin and contempt for most everyone in the world.

[GrantDawg]

It seems at least two of them were banned for tweeting a quote from the LAPD that no report of a crazy stalker attacking Musk's son has been reported.

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[thesloppy]

Musk's current slide kinda reminds me of post-war Putin, in extremely general terms.. Simply doing nothing would've preserved a very strong reputation, but now he seems remarkably intent on showing every bit of his ass at every step.

[cuervo72]

I'm sure Bari Weiss and Matt Taibbi will have perfectly good rationalizations for these!

[Ksyrup]

I can't figure out the end game of so transparently going down this route except that he's spoken to Mike Lindell who has convinced him that MyPillow sales have gone up by 1000% and Musk thinks his EV niche is going to be red-hatters in the next decade or so once the majority of cars move away from all-gas.

[Ksyrup]

Lol Keith Olbermann got suspended for suggesting that people should screenshot and tweet the posts that got journalists suspended. Note he didn't actually do it himself, suggested it. Suspended. Although I kinda support that one.. ha!

I hope the sports coverage migrates to Post. That's where I've set up shop. Maybe someone will come up with some sort of app that allows people to post the same content to 6-8 places at once.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I'm sure Bari Weiss and Matt Taibbi will have perfectly good rationalizations for these!

I'm guessing you've never read either, but in case you can't find them online, I'll try and let you know what they say. What is it about Weiss that has you so angry?

[Solecismic]

Anyway, seems rather hypocritical on Musk's part. What a waste of $44 billion.

[cuervo72]

Somewhere along the line I got the impression that she skewed a little transphobic. So there's that.

In general she's part of a group that seems like they have proclaimed to be left-leaning, but seem to point out faults in the left while sidling up to the right more than anything else. (And hence gain support by those who are really right-leaning -- or flat out right-wing -- who can say "look - I agree with what this self-professed liberal is saying! I'm not so bad!" if not outright being used as a cudgel against the left. See Gabbard, Tulsi.)

[GrantDawg]

I've read both. I read all of Tabbi's Twitter files. He acted like he really exposed something, and he really didn't. He left out context and admitted there were things he wasn't allowed to share.
I used to follow Weiss on Twitter. I finally stopped because I couldn't take the constant outrage over everything and her serious victim complex. Anytime someone starts crying about "woke" crap, I'm out. It is a lazy shorthand for "anything I don't agree with."
If Musk really wants to prove some kind of hard core bias, then have someone in MSM do the assessment. If Dan Rather has access to the "Twitter Files" and came to the conclusion, there was actual censorship of conservatives for their political views then I would buy it. That would never happen because Musk made sure to find people that only report what he wanted out.

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[Ksyrup]

Yeah, my first thought when I saw who he picked was this is like a tobacco study showing no harmful effects - paid for by the tobacco industry.

[JPhillips]

And I'm not interested in the scoops if they aren't allowed to look at China.

[Solecismic]

One argument she'd make, as a married gay woman, is that there can be a lot of pressure on girls who might be gay or just into sports or maybe just exploring life a bit or overwhelmed with life to start taking drugs that will make them infertile.

She and her wife just had a baby daughter, so her perspective on this issue could be very different from ours and more personal. She has written about the trans movement. I've never read anything critical or mean about adults who have decided to identify as a different gender. Is it transphobic to question whether children should be given these drugs? There are many people out there who question this issue and it's not hate or fear on their part.

I would say she's definitely left-leaning. She's also, more than anything, determined to discuss any issue, no matter how politically charged. Her conversations are very nuanced. She clearly doesn't trust Musk, and wrote that she was surprised when Musk invited her team to search the archives.

I don't think she's a politician at all. Or like Tulsi Gabbard, who does seem to have embraced the role you mention. You won't find Weiss on Tucker Carlson, I think (I don't even have cable any more, and never watched Fox News anyway). Can't say whether she'd appear if asked, or if he would ask.

Do people on the left have any faults?

[HerRealName]

He must love selling off his Tesla stock to finance his desperate cries for attention.

[flere-imsaho]

Yeah, I took a look into Bari Weiss' background and read a bunch of stuff she's written, and she's absolutely not an independent arbiter on, well, anything, but certainly on which way "reporting on Twitter leans". Honestly, she's so steeped in stoking controversy, I'm not sure she could treat the subject matter independently even if she wanted to.

[GrantDawg]

Jim, there are plenty of left-leaning journalists that I don't like. There are also right leaning journalists I respect. It is not about political leanings. It is about whether I believe they are being or at least trying to be honest.

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[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I've read both. I read all of Tabbi's Twitter files. He acted like he really exposed something, and he really didn't. He left out context and admitted there were things he wasn't allowed to share.

I'm pretty sure I already posted in this thread about how sad a turn it's been to see Matt Taibbi's last few years. Then again, it seemed like he came to prominence by being a brilliant but really abrasive ass, did a great job during the financial crisis because the people who were supposed to be doing something had their hand in the cookie jar, and then he's slid backwards to where he started. I caught him during the financial years, which was amazing work. This, well, this just seems sad and pathetic for someone like him.

SI

[RainMaker]

I think those guys like Taibbi and Greenwald just realized you can make more money being an errand boy for some billionaire than doing actual journalism.

[albionmoonlight]

Elon indefinitely suspends a bunch of journalists.

NY Times issues a groveling statement asking for its people to be let back on.

Access journalism is a hell of a drug.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Jim, there are plenty of left-leaning journalists that I don't like. There are also right leaning journalists I respect. It is not about political leanings. It is about whether I believe they are being or at least trying to be honest.

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Do you have a list of journalists that you enjoy? I am trying to construct one myself, because I think journalism in general is in very bad shape.

It's also too easy to stop listening to a journalist over one story that doesn't fit a personal narrative in these very divided times.

I was looking back and reading some Bari Weiss to try and get an idea of why you feel the way you do about her. I certainly could see some of it in her NYT resignation letter, but that was an emotional moment in that she was resigning from something she had felt was a major career achievement. One problem is that I just don't use Twitter for news or searching (or sharing jet locations) so I don't experience it the same way a lot of people do.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Do you have a list of journalists that you enjoy? I am trying to construct one myself, because I think journalism in general is in very bad shape.

It's also too easy to stop listening to a journalist over one story that doesn't fit a personal narrative in these very divided times.

I was looking back and reading some Bari Weiss to try and get an idea of why you feel the way you do about her. I certainly could see some of it in her NYT resignation letter, but that was an emotional moment in that she was resigning from something she had felt was a major career achievement. One problem is that I just don't use Twitter for news or searching (or sharing jet locations) so I don't experience it the same way a lot of people do.

I really don't have a list because it seems in constant flux, but one media critic I enjoy is Solidad O'Brien. I think you would find her criticism of media the exact opposite of yours, though. She points out the number times major media pulls punches when reporting on what is already proven facts, not to mention the constant "both side"-ism in what people laughing refer to as liberal media does that right wing media absolutely does not.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I'm sure Bari Weiss and Matt Taibbi will have perfectly good rationalizations for these!

I said I'd let you know. Here's Weiss's response. I don't read Taibbi very often (not sure why, I know I've noted some things he's done positively in the past, but maybe I should follow more, I don't know).

"The old regime at Twitter governed by its own whims and biases and it sure looks like the new regime has the same problem... I oppose it in both cases, and I think those journalists who were reporting on a story of public importance should be reinstated."

A fair response, I think. Musk's response was, as he has been responding the last half-day-or-so, at least, that revealing personal locations is a specific abuse that warrants action.

It's an interesting discussion. Musk has a point, but it still becomes arbitrary what rises to the level of requiring action. Can he be consistent? I don't think so. He's essentially trying to single-handedly play the role of a Supreme Court of something or other.

And that gets us into the whole Town Square/public forum vs private company/First Amendment mess again. Which is a rabbit hole of seemingly infinite proportions.

I lean toward removing anonymity. If Musk has a problem with having his location revealed (I know I would, though I'm seemingly always at my desk), there are legal actions he can take. And hopefully, every individual who has been stalked has the same opportunity to act.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I really don't have a list because it seems in constant flux, but one media critic I enjoy is Solidad O'Brien. I think you would find her criticism of media the exact opposite of yours, though. She points out the number times major media pulls punches when reporting on what is already proven facts, not to mention the constant "both side"-ism in what people laughing refer to as liberal media does that right wing media absolutely does not.

How do we resolve the "proven fact" versus "both sides" argument? It's our nature to seek proof that reassures our world view.

Journalists, ideally, work in this area. But the problem people note is that journalists these days wear their biases on their sleeves.

There was actually an excellent piece in (and I'm sorry to keep repeating this, because I'm sure those who don't like Weiss are just nodding and saying "yeah, of course you'd say this") The Free Press.

Real Life Does Not Fit The Narrative

Some of it resonated with me in particular because it reminded me of the first week of journalism school. We were taken to "boot camp" in northern lower Michigan - an area the UM uses for nature research, but wasn't in use that week. One assignment every day was just to go outside and write a story about something we saw - no interviews, no assumptions.

Then, at the end of the week, we went to a Pat Robertson campaign event. Same assignment (I got in trouble for trying to interview someone - follow the instructions, dammit). I found it chilling, because Robertson's views and my views have very little in common. As did everyone in our group. But it was great to try and focus on the event for what it was, rather than our impressions of what it mean, and presumably how attendees responded to it. Journalism is hard, and I think the current social media landscape makes it much worse.

[GrantDawg]

Elon Musk just suspended Business Insider reporter Linette Lopez for documenting the times Elon had his enemies tracked and doxxed

She did not post anything related to Elon’s jet

She has done amazing investigative reporting on Tesla pic.twitter.com/c7PeBxlwmn

— Gabe Hoffman (@GabeHoff) December 16, 2022

[JPhillips]

I'll give Bari credit for speaking out aginst Elon's bannings.

[Solecismic]

It's becoming a big story for them. They do a weekly roundup, usually written by Nellie Bowles (Weiss's wife, and also a former NYT writer). This is what Bowles wrote today:

Elon Musk decided to open up Twitter’s archives for a small group of reporters to trawl this week and last. Whenever a source wants to dump documents in your hands, they have an agenda, and Musk is no exception. What was his? The archives show well-intentioned, power-high and pretty random progressives with unimaginable power—and they wielded it.*

Those former Twitter execs could and did alter the American public discourse to fit their whims, limiting conversation about topics that weren’t helpful for their political cause of the moment, propping censorship up by citing rules they made up on the fly. Responding to the documents, Twitter co-founder and former CEO Jack Dorsey wrote a mea culpa this week. “The biggest mistake I made was continuing to invest in building tools for us to manage the public conversation, versus building tools for the people using Twitter to easily manage it for themselves. This burdened the company with too much power...”

If too much power was in the hands of a few people then, now it is in the hands of just one man, Elon Musk. And he is being driven by some of the same whims, just with new targets.

Earlier this week, he banned an account called @ElonJet, which tracked his private jet’s location. Musk announced his own new anti-doxxing rule to justify it, saying tracking real-time locations is dangerous.

As of Thursday night, Musk has suspended the accounts of several reporters who have been critical of him; Musk says they violated his doxxing rule. That new list of suspended accounts includes Ryan Mac at the New York Times and Drew Harwell at the Washington Post. It includes Keith Olbermann. It also includes the account of a Twitter competitor Mastodon. The argument Clarence Thomas once posited—that social media platforms should be regulated like common carriers (airlines, postal services)—seems more reasonable by the day.*

Musk’s Twitter reign (of terror?!) is a developing story. I’m working on something longer. And we accept all document dumps from all agendas.*

There were links to other stories from the document dump linked in the above text.

Yeah, so Musk is a great illustration of all of this. He cannot maintain a consistent position even on one single issue - it's too big a job and his own biases (now that he's taken on the role of a publisher) are affecting it. It's actually remarkable how much he's screwing up right now. I think that's part Musk, part just how absurd the role of Supreme Court he's taking is in the first place.

[RainMaker]

I think his position has been pretty consistent. You can't make fun of him or report on him in ways he doesn't like. Everything else is good.