OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[GrantDawg]

I'm re-reading the series right now. The re-reading confirms to me that the second and third books are the best written fantasy books ever. Even though this is my third reading, I'm still having a hard time putting the books down.

[Crapshoot]

Question - for those of who enjoy good science fiction but really can't stand Fantasy - is this remotely worth picking up?

[flere-imsaho]

Crapshoot: Yes. I enjoy both genres, but probably more SF than Fantasy. I get annoyed with Fantasy when it gets too contrived, trite and annoying, but this series isn't like that. If there's such as thing as "Hard" Fantasy (as there is "Hard" SF - i.e. straightforward plot and reality, though futurist, SF), this is probably it.

In fact, now that I think about it, I'd say there are a good few similarities between this and the work of Alastair Reynolds (Revelation Space, Chasm City), who I've read recently.

[wishbone]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Question - for those of who enjoy good science fiction but really can't stand Fantasy - is this remotely worth picking up?

I hate fantasy and got talked into reading the first of these. Then I had to get the 2nd, 3rd and 4th. Currently waiting for the 5th. The really nice thing about these is that there is not a lot of emphasis placed on spells, enchantments and magic. There is some of that stuff, but the meat of the story is in the political and personal relationships between the various characters. The story also moves along pretty well and is written in an interesting style (each chapter is from one person's point of view, but not necessarily of the same events).

People would ask me what I was reading and I would be embarrased to explain, but I couldn't stop reading them.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Question - for those of who enjoy good science fiction but really can't stand Fantasy - is this remotely worth picking up?

Yes. It's very "low" fantasy. In many ways it's a political story more than a fantasy story. There is very little in the way of magic. Very little in the way of magical beasts. It feels much more medival than fantastical. Rich story. Rich characters. A world of unbelievable depth and history.

Despite my love of fantasy, I tend to hate fantasy novels/series. I find them boring and cliched. I am not a real big fan of the LOTR series. I liked Dragon Lance when I was a kid, but as far as fantasy goes, that's it for me.

This series is on a whole other level.

Pick up the first book on paperback. If it's "too fantasy" for you, no big loss. If not, you're in for one hell of a ride.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Dola.

My wife is no fan of fantasy. Well, a little bit. She's Geek Tolerant. She openly mocked this series the first time she picked it up. Mocked it viciously.

She listened to "A Game of Thrones" on a drive from D.C. to Florida and was hooked. She's read 'em all.

The series really does transcend the genre for all the reasons everyone above has stated.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Despite my love of fantasy, I tend to hate fantasy novels/series. I find them boring and cliched. I am not a real big fan of the LOTR series.

Heretic!

Seriously, though, I agree with this series being more political than fantasy. When I describe these books to people, I tell them that they are more like historical novels than they are fantasy.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Despite my love of fantasy, I tend to hate fantasy novels/series. I find them boring and cliched. I am not a real big fan of the LOTR series. I liked Dragon Lance when I was a kid, but as far as fantasy goes, that's it for me.

That's funny thinking of LOTR as cliched, since probably the reason that it seems cliched is everyone copied Tolkien (who was much closer to original ).

As for boring, well, I'll give you that the Tom Bombadil side story wasn't all that grand.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

That's funny thinking of LOTR as cliched, since probably the reason that it seems cliched is everyone copied Tolkien (who was much closer to original ).

As for boring, well, I'll give you that the Tom Bombadil side story wasn't all that grand.

Exactly. Tolkien created the archetypes for almost every fantasy story that followed. He started it all. For that, I give him all the credit in the world. I didn't read Tolkien until I was in my late teens/early twenties. By that time I had been playing D&D for 10-15 years and had come up with more interesting, complex characters than Tolkien had.

Yes. I do hate Tom Bombadil.

[cschex]

I'll echo all the plaudits for the series and say that it hasn't mattered, in my experience, whether people are fans of fantasy or not. I've lent my copies out to almost a dozen people, some huge fantasy fans and some who'd never read a book in the genre, and they unanimously love it. Martin's strength is in his characters and dialogue, as well as the fact that there are no "rules" regarding the nominal good guys being untouchable. A Storm of Swords (the 3rd book in the series) is not only the greatest fantasy novel ever (IMO), but also one of the best books I've ever read in any genre.

[Anthony]

Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow / Bright blue his jacket is and his boots are yellow / None has ever caught him yet, for Tom he is the master / His songs are stronger songs and his feet are faster

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow / Bright blue his jacket is and his boots are yellow / None has ever caught him yet, for Tom he is the master / His songs are stronger songs and his feet are faster

Do you know how I know you're gay?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I would love to see this series picked up by HBO (10-12 episodes for 1-2 seasons). There's probably not enough mass market appeal for the regular tv stations, but HBO might be able to do it justice.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Another couple reasons for HBO

(1) I want to see all the gore and bloodshed in bright red
(2) I want the adult situations in the book to be portrayed (ex. incest)

Originally Posted by Edward64

Yeah, you're probably right ... but the sibling incest is a central theme in the books and is an example of what TNT, Sci-Fi channels would not be able to portray properly (ex. without alot of backlash).

Okay, I called it first.

Great news.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Okay, I called it first.

Great news.

Way to blow your own horn.

Eeew, That's not a horn!

[cougarfreak]

Just wanted to say............I like fantasy, and decided to read this series. I'm halfway through the first book, and it's very, very good.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

Just wanted to say............I like fantasy, and decided to read this series. I'm halfway through the first book, and it's very, very good.

I'd dare say that at half way through the first book, that you really have only the faintest hint of how good it is. Hold on to your hat. You are in for a wild ride. Enjoy.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I'd dare say that at half way through the first book, that you really have only the faintest hint of how good it is. Hold on to your hat. You are in for a wild ride. Enjoy.

i'd echo this...adding this earlier observation from the thread:

A Storm of Swords (the 3rd book in the series) is not only the greatest fantasy novel ever (IMO), but also one of the best books I've ever read in any genre.

[lordscarlet]

I'm partway through A Clash of Kings (I don't have it on me, but I think about 25-50% through)

[BrianD]

I'm curious, is nobody else bothered by the fact that after 4 books we still don't really have a "main character" or "main storyline"? I've enjoyed the books somewhat, but I don't really get the feel that we are driving toward something. It seems more like reading history books.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I'm curious, is nobody else bothered by the fact that after 4 books we still don't really have a "main character" or "main storyline"? I've enjoyed the books somewhat, but I don't really get the feel that we are driving toward something. It seems more like reading history books.

Personally, I think that Jon and Dany qualify there. I think everything is driving towards those two.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I'm curious, is nobody else bothered by the fact that after 4 books we still don't really have a "main character" or "main storyline"? I've enjoyed the books somewhat, but I don't really get the feel that we are driving toward something. It seems more like reading history books.

Not at all.

I actually sort like the "like reading history books" aspect of the series. One of the richest things about the series is the feeling that the world is deep and that the history of what happened, from Aegon the Conquerer invading Westeros to Robert's Rebellion is important and feels as real, genuine, interesting, and important as what is going on right now.

As for main characters... Let me figure out how to work that spoiler text thing...

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Personally, I think that Jon and Dany qualify there. I think everything is driving towards those two.

Agreed whole heartedly. I will go into more once I figure out the spoiler thing.

[finketr]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

Just wanted to say............I like fantasy, and decided to read this series. I'm halfway through the first book, and it's very, very good.

Yeah.. when i was halfway through the first book, i was ready to send TK some dead fish in the mail....

and then i made it through and books 2-4 are much better...

anyone know when the next book is due?

[wade moore]

Agreed with Honolulu on this... I like that it's not traditional in this sense, but also that Jon and Dany seem to be growing as the driving forces that will likely eventually be the center of the end of the story.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by finketr

Yeah.. when i was halfway through the first book, i was ready to send TK some dead fish in the mail....

and then i made it through and books 2-4 are much better...

anyone know when the next book is due?

Sometime this year probably, but he's given no date. I would say late fall/winter.

[Honolulu_Blue]

More thoughts:

Spoiler

Jon and Dany certainly seem to be the most "epic" characters in scope and events. They also seem to be one of the possible interpretations (there are quite a few) of the Song of Fire (Dany) and Ice (Jon). The whole "Dragon has three heads" thing is interesting, because if you assume Jon and Dany are two of the three heads, who is the other? Tyrion? I have no idea.

It certainly seems like the fourth book sort of signaled a shift of the focus of the series. The first three was the war in Westeros and it looks like the next big conflict will be more religious/magical, the conflict between R'hollor and The Other, with The Seven somewhere in between.

Another thing I like about all these characters is trying to figure what role will they play in the grand scheme of things. I mean, what's Jaime's future? How does he fit into all of this? Bran? Arya? Sansa? I love speculating on these things.

[wade moore]

H_B - we may want to just start a seperate thread rather than have a ton of spoiler tags .

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by wade moore

H_B - we may want to just start a seperate thread rather than have a ton of spoiler tags .

Good point.

[finketr]

Originally Posted by wade moore

H_B - we may want to just start a seperate thread rather than have a ton of spoiler tags .

i'd rather only have to read the one thread, though...

that's just me.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I'm curious, is nobody else bothered by the fact that after 4 books we still don't really have a "main character" or "main storyline"? I've enjoyed the books somewhat, but I don't really get the feel that we are driving toward something. It seems more like reading history books.

I think that's kinda the point of the whole series.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by finketr

i'd rather only have to read the one thread, though...

that's just me.

No way I'm going to read a thread that is just a bunch of spoiler tags replying to spoiler tags.

If we want talk amongst folks that have read the books (because that's all H_B is doing really) to be separated from those that haven't, I think a separate thread makes WAY more sense than a zillion spoiler tags.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by finketr

i'd rather only have to read the one thread, though...

that's just me.

I agree. Keep it in one thread... perhaps just say there be spoilers in this thread and be done with it.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I agree. Keep it in one thread... perhaps just say there be spoilers in this thread and be done with it.

That would be fine with me too since I've read all of the books .

So - group decision - shall we put a warning in the thread title to tread carefully if you have not read up through the current books?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by wade moore

That would be fine with me too since I've read all of the books .

So - group decision - shall we put a warning in the thread title to tread carefully if you have not read up through the current books?

Sounds good to me.

[lordscarlet]

Goodbye, thread.

[BrianD]

Sorry if I pushed this thread where it wasn't meant to go. I can certainly agree with everything said recently about some of the main characters and the point being to be more of a history book or epic series that doesn't have a traditional story line. I just find that a little hard to get into since I don't feel like I have an anchor. There is a lot of storytelling going on, but there are very few sympathetic characters and I find it hard to understand the point of the story without having that anchor.

This is also just one opinion, and I appreciate hearing from others on their view of the series. It is certainly non-traditional at the very least.

I'm happy to avoid spoilers at this point since my main questions have been answered.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Sorry if I pushed this thread where it wasn't meant to go. I can certainly agree with everything said recently about some of the main characters and the point being to be more of a history book or epic series that doesn't have a traditional story line. I just find that a little hard to get into since I don't feel like I have an anchor. There is a lot of storytelling going on, but there are very few sympathetic characters and I find it hard to understand the point of the story without having that anchor.

This is also just one opinion, and I appreciate hearing from others on their view of the series. It is certainly non-traditional at the very least.

I'm happy to avoid spoilers at this point since my main questions have been answered.

Well, by spoilers I mean talk about the existing books..

I know from my perspective that I'm frustrated that there's no outlet to talk about the book because of so many reading this for new book updates, board game updates, tv show updates, etc that haven't read all of the book...

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Well, by spoilers I mean talk about the existing books..

I know from my perspective that I'm frustrated that there's no outlet to talk about the book because of so many reading this for new book updates, board game updates, tv show updates, etc that haven't read all of the book...

I certainly won't stop you if you want to start a topic to talk about the books. I'll probably contribute if I can remember enough details about the story.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Well, by spoilers I mean talk about the existing books..

I know from my perspective that I'm frustrated that there's no outlet to talk about the book because of so many reading this for new book updates, board game updates, tv show updates, etc that haven't read all of the book...

I think this thread is appropriate for such discussion, I will just have to bow out of the thread at that point. You could maybe put it in a Book 5 thread. *shrug*. I'm just interested in what's best for me.

[JAG]

The thread has already been spoily at times if I remember correctly. If you're going to post a spoiler / have a spoiler discussion, just warn the reader before you start going into details.

[terpkristin]

New entry on GRRM's LJ:
http://grrm.livejournal.com/15035.html

a good day's dancing
I had a good day's work on A DANCE WITH DRAGONS yesterday.

It's one o'clock in the afternoon as I write this, and I'm just working on my morning cup of coffee, still half-conscious. One of the things that happens when I'm writing well is that all my normal schedules go out the window. I vanish into Westeros, and lose all track of time in the real world.

Which is what happened yesterday. I finished an old chapter that had been partially written months ago, did a lot of work on a newer chapter that I'd decided to add to the early part of the book, revised a couple of other sections, made some structural changes to the outline... in other words, I spent the whole day at DANCE. By the time I noticed that it had gotten dark outside, it was already close to ten o'clock at night. I worked a little more, finally signed off, went across the street and had a midnight supper, but I was too wound up to go to sleep... which is also something that happens when the book has me in its grip. So I watched a little television that TIVO had caught for me earlier (oh, I love my TIVO), then read some of the latest Bernard Cornwell (excellent, as always), and finally went to bed around three. And even then I did not go straight to sleep, but tossed and turned for a long while, my mind full of Dany and Jon and Q and so forth and so on.

It was the most productive day I've had in months, at least where DANCE is concerned (I have had very productive days working on the WILD CARDS, dealing with contracts and subrights, approving artwork and design and giving notes about some of the spinoff projects, and the like, but that's a different thing). One thing that helped that happen was that yesterday, for whatever reason, the world left me alone. The phone never rang. No one came knocking on my doors. None of my friends dropped in unexpectedly. I had no doctor's appointments, no dinner dates, nothing on my calendar but work. I did not even go out for my usual daily walk to get some exercise in.

I need more days like this. Lots more days like this. That's how DANCE will get done. I have lots of writer friends who can turn it off and on at will, who can live their lives and do their work as well, even work on one project in the morning and switch to an entirely different project in the afternoon... but that's never worked for me. When it's going well, my writing tends to swallow me. And when "the world is too much with us," well, that always throws me off my game.

In the past, though, one good day does often lead to another, and another, and another. So you'll have to excuse me, friends. I'm going back to Westeros...

[Senator]

I want his life. Out for a midnight supper.

[ISiddiqui]

Damn... here is wishing for far more productive days in the near future for GRRM.

[flere-imsaho]

I hate to say this, but I'm increasingly worried he's going to die before he finishes this thing.

[ISiddiqui]

Always a possibility (he's no spring chicken), so stop all this other BS, GRRM, and get to work!!

I'm really only half joking though.

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I hate to say this, but I'm increasingly worried he's going to die before he finishes this thing.

Jordan. Robert Jordan is the one who will most likely die before finishing his series. (he has been diagnosed with a terminal disease, though I don't know what his life expectancy prognosis is/was)

That said, GRRM isn't exactly a spring chicken.

/tk

[timmynausea]

I haven't read any of his stuff, but I remember reading that Jordan is doing really well at this point. Here, there's stuff about it on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_jordan

It has also crossed my mind that GRRM could die before completing the series. He's a big guy.

[ISiddiqui]

Ok, then... here's the plan. We have GRRM have "productive days" while at the same time sneaking a diet on him. We may even put a sub on a rope attached to a stick which he'll have to chase (but no longer than a half-hour unless he hasn't done X amount of hours on Song of Ice and Fire ).

That'll get us our books!

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Ok, then... here's the plan. We have GRRM have "productive days" while at the same time sneaking a diet on him. We may even put a sub on a rope attached to a stick which he'll have to chase (but no longer than a half-hour unless he hasn't done X amount of hours on Song of Ice and Fire ).

That'll get us our books!

A solid plan, though might I recommend some New Jersey/New York style pizza (of which he is obssessed with) in place of the sub.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

He's a big guy.

His descriptions of feasts make me hungry.