Brett Favre Retirement Tour: Part Deux

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

this guy is smoking something...Minnesota a Super Bowl caliber team? That's really fuckin stretching the definition of Super Bowl caliber.

Keep in mind the guy said he'd been watching the Lions practice for the last two hours.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

this guy is smoking something...Minnesota a Super Bowl caliber team? That's really fuckin stretching the definition of Super Bowl caliber.

Other than QB, whose talent is so overwhelmingly better than theirs that Minn has no chance to win the super bowl?

[TroyF]

Arlis,

It was really the last five games where Favre went to hell.

His first 11 games: 70% passing, 224 yards per game, 20 TD, 13 INT, one game under 67% completion rate, 7.09 yards per pass attempt.

His last 5 games: 56% passing, 202 yards per game, 2 TD, 9 INT, one game over 60% completions rate, 5.7 yards per pass attempt.

So the question is pretty simple. What took place in those final 5 games? Was it the shoulder injury? Was it him flaming out? Was it the team being tired from 4 games played on the opposite coast?

I don't know. I do know the Jets were 8-3 during those first 11 games. And if the Favre that played in those 11 plays in 16 of em for the Vikings, he makes them a better team. A much better team. I think it's worth the gamble myself. I could be wrong. We'll see how it goes. FWIW: I don't cheer for the Vikings. I don't care if they win 12, 5, or 9 games. I just think they made themselves a better team today. Now we'll let time decide who is right.

[PackerFanatic]

He might be a better option right this second than Sage and T-Jack - but this doesn't bode well for their future.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Great running game, pretty damn good defense (based on last year of course), and Favre. I think Favre will do better then what most think he will do (not saying the levels of GREATNESS, but pretty good). That sounds like a Super Bowl level team. I mean, I take Favre now over Jim McMahon or Mark Rypien or even Trent Dilfer. Maybe I still have the blinders on just a little, I still think he may be able to match last season without the end of season fade.

Now....I do want him to fail. I am a Pacer fan after all. I also wonder wait to see how he starts off. I would expect a slow start based on injuries and no camp. In the end that may help him finish the season though and maybe he new knows what he is doing here.

Still, please fail. Go Pack Go!

I also want to see him fail, but I am a Pistons fan.

[JAG]

I tend to agree with TroyF that Favre is a superior option to the Vikings' other choices for the immediate future (as a nitpick, the turnover numbers Arles quotes for Sage's last 15 games were in 411 passing attempts vs. 522 for Favre, meaning he amazingly turned the ball over at a WORSE rate than Favre). However I think Favre will break down towards the end of the regular season and Minnesota will have to make the call as to whether to stick with the fading Favre or put in a backup. I think in a perfect world, he would've better off starting to play around week 9 or so, but of course the Vikings have a pretty easy early schedule and it'd be hard to pull a QB who led your team to a 6-2 start.

[Karlifornia]

He only was terrible for five games? That's the most ringing endorsement for this guy?

[Arles]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Arlis,

It was really the last five games where Favre went to hell.

No, he was worse in a 3 games set against powerhouses Cincy, Oakland and KC in weeks 6-8. In those 3 games he had 3 TDs, 7 picks and 4 fumbles. And that was back when he was *healthy*.

His first 11 games: 70% passing, 224 yards per game, 20 TD, 13 INT, one game under 67% completion rate, 7.09 yards per pass attempt.

9 of his 21 TDs came in two games (Arizona and SD games). This was when Arizona's D was a sieve because of injuries (5 starters were out) and week 3 against SD (after they realized no Merriman and also had injuries). That means in the other 14 games, he had 13 TDs and 19 INTs and 10 fumbles.

His last 5 games: 56% passing, 202 yards per game, 2 TD, 9 INT, one game over 60% completions rate, 5.7 yards per pass attempt.

Weeks 6-10 against the vaunted Bengals, Raiders, Chiefs, Bills and Rams:
66% passing, 208 yards per game, 4 TD, 8 INT, 6 fumbles, 6.6 yards per attempt.

Maybe that "steel curtain" of defenses from St. Louis, KC, Oakland and Cincy was just too tough then? What's the excuse there?

I don't know. I do know the Jets were 8-3 during those first 11 games. And if the Favre that played in those 11 plays in 16 of em for the Vikings, he makes them a better team.

Favre had more TDs than picks in 6 of the 16 games. If you count fumbles, that number drops to 4. That means in 12 of Favre's 16 games, he had as many or more INT+fumbles than TDs. From another standpoint, in 5 games he had a rating over 95. In 9 games had a rating under 75 (6 under 62).

The fact that the Jets won 5 games where his rating was between 60 and 75 doesn't mean he had a great season.

A much better team. I think it's worth the gamble myself. I could be wrong. We'll see how it goes. FWIW: I don't cheer for the Vikings. I don't care if they win 12, 5, or 9 games. I just think they made themselves a better team today. Now we'll let time decide who is right.

We'll see, but Favre was extremely inconsistent last season and that's not the QB I want with a solid defense and top tier HB.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

He might be a better option right this second than Sage and T-Jack - but this doesn't bode well for their future.

Speculation from a few different sites is that they will release/trade Tavaris Jackson, keep Sage as a reliable lower cost backup, and continue to develop Booty.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Speculation from a few different sites is that they will release/trade Tavaris Jackson, keep Sage as a reliable lower cost backup, and continue to develop Booty.

Oh that's right - they got the Booty-man

[PackerFanatic]

And the Booty Man currently wears the #4 too - be funny if he refused to give it up, haha.

Although they already have picks of Favre with it on.

[PackerFanatic]

dola - looks like he already switched to #9. Bummer, heh.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

...and continue to develop Booty.

Sounds like a pimping business.

[SackAttack]

Found a quote from a couple of weeks ago where he said that if Favre had joined the team, he'd have coughed #4 up for him without trying to "sell" it.

So my guess is as soon as he got the news, he said "How 'bout #9 for me this year?"

[TroyF]

Arles,

I guess I don't understand that week 6-10 stretch you point out as Favre being horrible.

He went 25-33 against the Bengals. He had a poor game against the 10th best pass defense in the league (and 5th best in completion percentage against), had a last minute drive to beat the Chiefs (he threw 3 int's that game, but Rivers threw two to the same team a couple of weeks later), had a ho hum 201 yards and a pic in an easy win in Buffalo and then went 14-19 for 167 and a TD in a 47-3 win against the Rams.

He followed that up with a combined 51-65 at the Patriots and Titans.

During the stretch of games you cited, the Jets went 4-1with an OT loss on the complete other side of the country.

All things being equal, I hope he fails and fails miserably. This retirement thing is ridiculous. I think if he's healthy, he's going to help the Vikings in a major way though. Last I'll post about it til mid season. Let's see how he does.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Ugh. ESPN needs to STFU and get off of Favre's nuts.

Well, I don't think Chris Carter is joining the rest of ESPN in doing so.

Carter Rips Vikings' Handling Of Favre - ESPN Video - ESPN

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

Speaking as unbias as I can, I still don't understand how Minnesota can think this is a good move (especially after, apparently, Sage had a decent outing in the first preseason game) Nobody (literally, nobody) knows what Favre will do after this season, so let's just say you sign him for 1 year. You are banking on a guy that is going to be turning 40 in 2 months and in the last couple of years, has shown he can't handle the big-pressure situations as he has in the past. Plus, this totally throws the chemistry of your team into a mess - and the worst part: you are letting Favre run the show. It just doesn't make much sense to me.

You ever seen Sage or TJAck play?

[jbergey22]

Its pointless to compare Favre's numbers with last years jets with this years Vikings. The Vikings are a running team and need a QB to open up the field or atleast give the defense the impression that he can beat them. You dont get that with TJack or Sage. The Jets needed Favre to win games. The Vikings lost so many games last year because of a qb that couldnt complete a 5 yard pass it wasnt even funny. They now have everything they need to get to Miami. Pass Rush, Run Def, Rush offense, and a capable pass attack.

[DataKing]

Originally Posted by Matthean

Well, I don't think Chris Carter is joining the rest of ESPN in doing so.

Carter Rips Vikings' Handling Of Favre - ESPN Video - ESPN

See, I think Carter is on Favre's nuts along with the rest of his ESPN buddies. But he is willing to rip into the Vikes' front office for how the situation has been handled, especially with regards to Sage.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Arles,

I guess I don't understand that week 6-10 stretch you point out as Favre being horrible.

He went 25-33 against the Bengals. He had a poor game against the 10th best pass defense in the league (and 5th best in completion percentage against), had a last minute drive to beat the Chiefs (he threw 3 int's that game, but Rivers threw two to the same team a couple of weeks later), had a ho hum 201 yards and a pic in an easy win in Buffalo and then went 14-19 for 167 and a TD in a 47-3 win against the Rams.

Here are his actual numbers:
Cincy: 25-33 for 189 yards (5.7 ypa), 1 TD, 2 INTs and 1 fumble
Oakland: 21-38 for 197 yards (5.2 ypa), 0 TD, 2 INTs and 3 fumbles
KC: 28-40 for 290 yards (7.3 ypa), 2 TD, 3 INTs
Buff: 19-28 for 201 yards (7.1 ypa), 0 TDs, 1 INT and 1 Fumble
StL: 14-19 for 167 yards (8.8 ypa), 1 TD, 0 INT and 1 Fumble

Four of these teams drafted in the top 7 and Buffalo drafted 11th. This was the dredge of the NFL and he wasn't even average (just 1 game with as many TDs as INT+fumbles).

During the stretch of games you cited, the Jets went 4-1with an OT loss on the complete other side of the country.

But this is the point. The Jets had 9 games on their schedule against teams that drafted in the top 12. The fact that Favre "led" them to 9 wins isn't saying much. If you take out 1 game (Arizona game - when the Cards were a wreck on defense), Favre had 16 TDs, 21 picks and 10 fumbles in the remaining 15 games. That's Tavaris Jackson/Rex Grossman bad. It just so happened that the team went 8-7 in those games because they were playing brutal offenses and teams that would go on to have top 10 picks.

All things being equal, I hope he fails and fails miserably. This retirement thing is ridiculous. I think if he's healthy, he's going to help the Vikings in a major way though. Last I'll post about it til mid season. Let's see how he does.

I just don't see the argument for Favre being a good QB this season:

1. He had 16 TDs and 31 picks+fumbles in 15 games last season against one of the easiest schedules in the NFL
2. He's 39 going on 40 with a partially torn rotator cuff
3. He's missed all mini camps and the first 3 weeks of training camp with a new team
4. He's said on numerous occasions he's not sure if he has the motivation to stick it out for the entire grind of the NFL season.
5. (the most dangerous) He thinks he can make plays that the current state of his body can't do.

Maybe he will have a good season, but I just don't see it given the info we have right now.

[RendeR]

I'm kinda wondering what some people are looking at when they say the vikings aren't super bowl calibur.

Other than the QB position Minnesota is the single best team in the NFC right now. Noboby else has their level of defense. Nobody else has the quality running game or truly as solid an offensive line. They have receivers that can catch, what they have not had is a QB that could do jack shit.

Favre even at his worst last season, puts Minnesota into the big game.

I'm sick to death of Brett being a fuckwit about all this shit and I truly hope that Goodell pulls him aside and tells him to never pull this shit again. but that won't happen.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Speculation from a few different sites is that they will release/trade Tavaris Jackson, keep Sage as a reliable lower cost backup, and continue to develop Booty.

Who? Brad Childress will develop a young QB? Isn't this why they picked up Brett Favre in the first place?

[miami_fan]

So does Brett Favre get the blame if this Super Bowl team does not get to the Super Bowl? I personally don't think he will. One of those other Super Bowl parts will be at fault.

[RendeR]

Childress is doing exactly what he has to do. he knows he's only got a couple years with this vikings team at the level its at right now. With the QB's he had he's got nothing, with Favre, he's got a shot.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

So does Brett Favre get the blame if this Super Bowl team does not get to the Super Bowl? I personally don't think he will. One of those other Super Bowl parts will be at fault.

Of course, because he's Brett and the NFL sucks his dick to feel better about itself.

[Jas_lov]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

So does Brett Favre get the blame if this Super Bowl team does not get to the Super Bowl? I personally don't think he will. One of those other Super Bowl parts will be at fault.

No. Brad Childress will get all the blame and Vikings fans will rejoice when Favre gets his 2nd coach fired in 2 years.

[Big Fo]

Good news, it will make the season more interesting. I never really liked Favre but the backlash against him is big enough that I hope he's successful this year just to see a bunch of people get pissed off. Same with Vick.

[dervack]

Originally Posted by Arles

...That's Tavaris Jackson/Rex Grossman bad.

Hey, you leave our shitty quarterbacks out of this.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Arles

Maybe he will have a good season, but I just don't see it given the info we have right now.

You do realize much of his career Favre has been gameplanned for and now is going into a situation in which he will see single coverage all over the field, right? Its a completely different situation than Favre has ever been in.

[jbergey22]

Favre's mistakes come when his team his trailing for the most part. When he is trying to make plays to bring his team back. After watching over 100 games Favre has played I would speculate 70-80% of his ints come with his team behind. In this situation I wouldnt expect him having to bring his team from far behind to often. A strong defense and running game will keep you close in most games.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Strange... It's been about 8 hours since I heard about this and I have yet to hear Favre talk about retiring again. Guess I'll give it a few more hours!

[Zelig]

I watched more Jets games last season than I ever have. He makes football fun. I am glad he has decided to play again.

[tucker rocky]

Isn't the Metrodome like a house of horrors for Favre?

Vikings 8-8 no Super Bowl, Favre retires, undecided, retires, signs with the Browns.

[tucker rocky]

Anyone look over on Vikings.com?

"Are you ready 4 some football?"

[tucker rocky]

Another season of "Favrefest".

[bigmouth]

will madden unretire now that farve is back?

[Galaxy]

I still can't believe he got a 2-year, $25 million deal ($12 million this year).

[DaddyTorgo]

do we know the structure though? odds are it's a cheap buyout before the 2nd year because he'll presumably do this whole fucking charade again

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

do we know the structure though? odds are it's a cheap buyout before the 2nd year because he'll presumably do this whole fucking charade again

I sadi somewhere earlier today, it's a shame the Bears have Cutler because that limits the chances of Favre moving to Chicago next year. He is like herpes, won't go away for good and is speading.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Favre's mistakes come when his team his trailing for the most part. When he is trying to make plays to bring his team back.

Most players rarely through picks with a 7-10 point lead. So, that stands to reason.

After watching over 100 games Favre has played I would speculate 70-80% of his ints come with his team behind.

10 of his 22 picks came in the 9 games they won. So, I don't think that number holds up last season.

[Epi_862]

Another thing that hasnt been mentioned (this page at least), thats different with #4 this year - the Jets run a totally different offensive system, that was -by reports- greatly simplified for Favre.

Now with Vikings, he basically knows the WCO type they run in and out, without ever being to camp or minicamp. AND he has that pretty sifty runner back there...

BUT all in all, as a packer fan, i hope he fucking fails. I hope Kampman rushes off the edge and puts this old turncoat out of his misery. For good.

[Arles]

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Arles

Most players rarely through picks with a 7-10 point lead. So, that stands to reason.


10 of his 22 picks came in the 9 games they won. So, I don't think that number holds up last season.

So 12 of his picks came in the 7 games he lost? Because 10 of his ints came in games he won it doesnt mean they led the whole game as it doesnt mean in the games they lost they trailed the whole game.

And with your first comment, youd probably agree he is in a better situation this year as far as throwing less picks?

[Arles]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

So 12 of his picks came in the 7 games he lost? Because 10 of his ints came in games he won it doesnt mean they led the whole game as it doesnt mean in the games they lost they trailed the whole game.

And with your first comment, youd probably agree he is in a better situation this year as far as throwing less picks?

The team is better, but the schedule's a lot harder. People don't realize how cake that Jets schedule was. The NFC West, AFC West and the Bengals as non-division is ridiculous. The North plays the NFC West again, but the Vikes also play the Bears and Pack twice (both much better defenses than last year), Ravens, Steelers, Giants and Panthers. I think it's a wash and there's a good chance he gets 20+ picks again.

[DaddyTorgo]

he threw 22 INT's last season? jeebus!!!

I'd have a hard time saying any QB who threw 20+ INT's last season is an improvement over anybody - even if it's another QB who threw 20+ INT's. At best it's a lateral move. Protect the goddamn football!!

[Cringer]

Favre watch...

Originally Posted by Tom Pelissero (Green Bay Press Gazette)

Favre opened it up today and was wayward at times, but he had a 55-yard strike to Sid Rice and a fade to Percy Harvin that turned heads.

[PackerFanatic]

Not sure why Pelissero is wasting his time at Vikings camp. Kind of annoying...

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Arles

The team is better, but the schedule's a lot harder. People don't realize how cake that Jets schedule was. The NFC West, AFC West and the Bengals as non-division is ridiculous. The North plays the NFC West again, but the Vikes also play the Bears and Pack twice (both much better defenses than last year), Ravens, Steelers, Giants and Panthers. I think it's a wash and there's a good chance he gets 20+ picks again.

I'll bet you your next game he doesnt throw 20 picks this year, if he does Ill buy two

[cuervo72]

Just saw the Farve Sears commercial. Got a good chuckle out of it.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I'll bet you your next game he doesnt throw 20 picks this year, if he does Ill buy two

This apply to anybody? I'll write an old BASIC program to sell you. You can book him for 20 picks if he makes it through the whole season in one piece.

I'll be absolutely stunned if Fave turns in anywhere close to a decent performance this year. Arlie has completely nailed this. Favre's season last year was pretty awful. He had a complete of great games that padded his stats but the Jets won some games last year despite him because the opponent was worse.

Let's for a moment forget who he is. How often does a QB come to a brand new team and light it up immediately? I've always had a rule in my fantasy leagues that I try to never take a QB or a WR his first year with a new team because the knowledge and timing isn't there.

Now let's consider that it's a guy who hates to practice signing with a team halfway through training camp at the age of 40 with a bum shoulder playing in stadium where he sucked most of his career. Favre's record in domes has always been atrocious, and most of those games were in Detroit and Minnesota. In almost every game Green Bay was the better team, and his record was weak.

Don't see how this ends well, and considering how it's all been handled, I actually hope it doesn't end well.