NFL Week 17

[Buccaneer]

I do too because having 4 divisional games create great long term rivalries instead of short term made-for-tv ones. But tv contracts rule and don't be surprised by 18 games and 16 playoff teams. Ugh.

[EagleFan]

I think the divisional setup they have now is fine. It works perfect for scheduling and there is a good mix of teams that each team plays every year.

The playoff format is also fine. Would not want to see them go with more teams and there is no way they are cutting teams from the playoffs.

Wish they would structure contracts so that team performance means something. That would help a little as players would have incentive to play every game for a victory (wish all sports did that).

[JediKooter]

Anybody complaining about the missed illegal formation penalty against the Chargers...I have one word for you: Ed Hochuli.

I consider us even now Ed.



Until next time......

[RainMaker]

I like the current system. Enough teams get in that a lot of teams are still playing for something deep into the season. But it's not too many where the games are meaningless.

You can argue that a bad division winner gets a home game, but as long as schedules among teams in conferences are different, it's never going to be a perfect system. This puts some emphasis on the divisions and makes those games more important.

[Desnudo]

Just be glad a Charger didn't sort of shove another player up the middle on the kick. They're all over that one.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Just be glad a Charger didn't sort of shove another player up the middle on the kick. They're all over that one.

[Buccaneer]

Maybe next season the experiment of going with replacement refs will end.

[rowech]

If this was the NBA we would all be talking about fixed games. Wonder why NFL doesn't get such talk?

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by rowech

If this was the NBA we would all be talking about fixed games. Wonder why NFL doesn't get such talk?

Just like with the PED/HGH issue, NFL has great PR. Besides, the refs got their raises and reduced workloads, therefore inferior job performance has to be expected. But since the NFL caved in, they will continue to PR this under the rug.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by rowech

If this was the NBA we would all be talking about fixed games. Wonder why NFL doesn't get such talk?

NFL doesn't have a ref who actually fixed games.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Maybe next season the experiment of going with replacement refs will end.

So the NFL refs are terrible, but the replacement refs were all terrible too, and I know from the college game threads here that the college refs are all terrible too. Where are the "good" refs? Should the NFL and college conferences just hire FOFC posters? Is that they only way to get every call right?

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by molson

So the NFL refs are terrible, but the replacement refs were all terrible too, and I know from the college game threads here that the college refs are all terrible too. Where are the "good" refs? Should the NFL and college conferences just hire FOFC posters? Is that they only way to get every call right?

I would then nominate Troy to be head of the refs.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by molson

So the NFL refs are terrible, but the replacement refs were all terrible too, and I know from the college game threads here that the college refs are all terrible too. Where are the "good" refs? Should the NFL and college conferences just hire FOFC posters? Is that they only way to get every call right?

Certain crews are real bad and they bring down NFL refs as a unit. Most of the crews are really good but the couple bad ones really stick out from the rest.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Was listening to the morning radio show here in KC. One of the people on the show helps produce NFL games on a weekly basis. He said that he has heard through the CBS grapevine that the NFL is looking to go to a centrally located replay official system in NYC (much like what the NHL already has). He said they are pushing to get it in place by next year. The NFL believes it will take pressure off the on-site referees and also will provide more consistency when reviewing controversial plays.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Anybody complaining about the missed illegal formation penalty against the Chargers...I have one word for you: Ed Hochuli.

I consider us even now Ed.



Until next time......

You mean the call that didn't cost you anything? Yes, the Donkies won a game they would not have won. But the Chargers ended the season 8-8 and won the division. 9-7 wouldn't have changed their playoff seeding at all.

It was a horrific call, but his call didn't take the playoffs away from you like the calls yesterday put you in. You are probably still owed something from the Holy Roller play, but that was legal at the time. All in all, the game yesterday probably puts you in the red when it comes to karma.

Sorry, but you are not even.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Lots of good options this year.

Andy Reid
Mike McCarthy
Bruce Arians
Ron Rivera
Sean Payton

Bill Belichick

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Lots of good options this year.

Andy Reid
Mike McCarthy
Bruce Arians
Ron Rivera
Sean Payton

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Bill Belichick

Nobody picking Joe Philbin?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by molson

So the NFL refs are terrible, but the replacement refs were all terrible too, and I know from the college game threads here that the college refs are all terrible too. Where are the "good" refs? Should the NFL and college conferences just hire FOFC posters? Is that they only way to get every call right?

1) Make it like college, any play can be reviewed. If the call is wrong, it's wrong.
2) Do what they are planning on doing, centralize the replay booth. It'll be quicker and have far less error if set up properly.
3) Do something about the crews that are terrible. The players and coaches who are involved in this game ARE held accountable for their performance. The refs need to be held accountable too. I don't need to list the names, everyone here could run off a list of worst 3 crews in the game and be very close in agreement with who the poor refs are.
4) Publicly list the officials grades.
5) Pare down the rule book a little. These guys now have about 1.3 million rules to figure out when there are only 10 main types of penalties called. Give it a rest.

There are my front five ideas.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by TroyF

1) Make it like college, any play can be reviewed. If the call is wrong, it's wrong.
2) Do what they are planning on doing, centralize the replay booth. It'll be quicker and have far less error if set up properly.
3) Do something about the crews that are terrible. The players and coaches who are involved in this game ARE held accountable for their performance. The refs need to be held accountable too. I don't need to list the names, everyone here could run off a list of worst 3 crews in the game and be very close in agreement with who the poor refs are.
4) Publicly list the officials grades.
5) Pare down the rule book a little. These guys now have about 1.3 million rules to figure out when there are only 10 main types of penalties called. Give it a rest.

There are my front five ideas.

You should lead the charge. Can I just add that I think most people prefer the refs just keep their nose out of the game unless something needs to be called to keep things fair. Calling a hold when the ball is 20 yards away from the hold doesnt need to be called unless it somehow interrupted the play. I think the common sense element needs to be added. I think most crews kind of understand that concept but the 2-3 bad crews feel the need to be involved so much they become the entire show and get remembered for sucking.

[molson]

Reading these threads on Sundays, there's complaints about far more than "2 or 3" bad crews.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by TroyF

1) Make it like college, any play can be reviewed. If the call is wrong, it's wrong.
2) Do what they are planning on doing, centralize the replay booth. It'll be quicker and have far less error if set up properly.
3) Do something about the crews that are terrible. The players and coaches who are involved in this game ARE held accountable for their performance. The refs need to be held accountable too. I don't need to list the names, everyone here could run off a list of worst 3 crews in the game and be very close in agreement with who the poor refs are.
4) Publicly list the officials grades.
5) Pare down the rule book a little. These guys now have about 1.3 million rules to figure out when there are only 10 main types of penalties called. Give it a rest.

There are my front five ideas.

Additional technology, like chipping the ball.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

You should lead the charge. Can I just add that I think most people prefer the refs just keep their nose out of the game unless something needs to be called to keep things fair. Calling a hold when the ball is 20 yards away from the hold doesnt need to be called unless it somehow interrupted the play. I think the common sense element needs to be added. I think most crews kind of understand that concept but the 2-3 bad crews feel the need to be involved so much they become the entire show and get remembered for sucking.

Don't disagree at all. Baseball umps drive me nuts with this. You are not the damned show. Call the game and shut up. If a coach or player crosses the line, throw an unsportsmanlike flag or eject him. I do not pay money to watch you.

There are more than 3 bad crews, but that's why you post grades. Everyone is on notice. Bottom 3 of the league two straight years? Buh bye. Bottom half of the league 3 straight years? Buh Bye. These guys are bulletproof. Be horrible for ten straight years? Ref another 10 years and work a few high profile games while your at it. It's beyond dumb.

I know, I know, the union of refs, right? Well, how about you pay the damned guys a boatload of cash. I don't care if you go 7 figures for the top refs who have been near the top of the grading system for years. Stop shortchanging these guys. Good refs make your game better and this league does not have financial problems. We are talking about 20 crews of 8. For the love of God, pay them what they are worth.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by TroyF

You mean the call that didn't cost you anything? Yes, the Donkies won a game they would not have won. But the Chargers ended the season 8-8 and won the division. 9-7 wouldn't have changed their playoff seeding at all.

It was a horrific call, but his call didn't take the playoffs away from you like the calls yesterday put you in. You are probably still owed something from the Holy Roller play, but that was legal at the time. All in all, the game yesterday probably puts you in the red when it comes to karma.

Sorry, but you are not even.

I was trying to be funny, I don't think I succeeded. My apologies.

However, I don't disagree with much of what you said. Basically, my unbiased thoughts are: Missed penalties and questionable penalties will always be part of the game, just ask Tom Brady or the Seahawks a few years ago during the Super Bowl or the Raiders and the Tuck Rule. I'm sure Steelers fans didn't mind and still don't mind the Immaculate Reception not being flagged for an illegal touch or just being called an incomplete pass that allowed them to advance to the AFC Championship game.

My biased thoughts are: The only thing different this time, it happened to benefit my favorite team and it put them in the playoffs, so of course I'm not going to be upset about this.

Besides, the Steelers have 6 championships, I think they will be ok if they have to wait until the 2014 campaign to try for their 7th.

[bhlloy]

Plus it's a dumb rule (probably plays well with Troy's point #5 above). Are they worried about somebody getting crushed to death under the weight of too many fat guys trying to crash one side of the line?

We could probably come up with a pretty simple rule - if nobody knows it's a penalty until it comes up as a controversy get rid of it.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I was trying to be funny, I don't think I succeeded. My apologies.

However, I don't disagree with much of what you said. Basically, my unbiased thoughts are: Missed penalties and questionable penalties will always be part of the game, just ask Tom Brady or the Seahawks a few years ago during the Super Bowl or the Raiders and the Tuck Rule. I'm sure Steelers fans didn't mind and still don't mind the Immaculate Reception not being flagged for an illegal touch or just being called an incomplete pass that allowed them to advance to the AFC Championship game.

My biased thoughts are: The only thing different this time, it happened to benefit my favorite team and it put them in the playoffs, so of course I'm not going to be upset about this.

Besides, the Steelers have 6 championships, I think they will be ok if they have to wait until the 2014 campaign to try for their 7th.

You missed my sarcasm meter. I didn't take your post serious at all. I do think it's important to understand there is a major difference between what happened yesterday and Brady's tuck rule. The tuck rule was a rule. It existed for years before Brady fumbled the ball and it is still a rule now. The officials didn't miss the call, the Pats didn't get a break because they called it how they called it, the Raiders didn't get screwed. The rule, no matter how most of us think that rule sucks, was applied correctly.

What happened yesterday was not legal and it was an official screw up. Furthermore, the fake punt in OT was another botched call. I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy it or you should feel ashamed you won, but understand, you only won that game because of the officials. Either play is called correctly and you lose the football game and we are talking about the Steelers in the playoffs.

That said, if I were to pick a true sleeper for the playoffs, the Chargers are who I would pick. Very good QB who can get hot. Known for losing a lot of close games, which can suddenly turn come playoff time. McCoy is a hell of a coach. The Chargers are dangerous and if Cincy doesn't take them seriously they will lose that game. They played the Broncos tough twice and beat them once. I'd much rather see KC come to Denver next week than Indy or San Diego.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I was trying to be funny, I don't think I succeeded. My apologies.

However, I don't disagree with much of what you said. Basically, my unbiased thoughts are: Missed penalties and questionable penalties will always be part of the game, just ask Tom Brady or the Seahawks a few years ago during the Super Bowl or the Raiders and the Tuck Rule. I'm sure Steelers fans didn't mind and still don't mind the Immaculate Reception not being flagged for an illegal touch or just being called an incomplete pass that allowed them to advance to the AFC Championship game.

My biased thoughts are: The only thing different this time, it happened to benefit my favorite team and it put them in the playoffs, so of course I'm not going to be upset about this.

Besides, the Steelers have 6 championships, I think they will be ok if they have to wait until the 2014 campaign to try for their 7th.

The weird thing to be is the disproportionate reaction to ref mistakes which tells me people DO see them as the most important thing and more important than the players. I think back to that Patriots no-pass interference call in the end zone. Maybe the ref made a mistake in not calling it. But Brady made at least as bad a mistake by terribly under-throwing the ball. If he puts it anywhere near the receiver (Gronk I think), he's getting the call and the Pats probably win the game. But in the reaction afterwards, the people are mostly upset about the ref's apparent mistake, but not Brady's. Even though Brady is a multi-million dollar future hall of fame guy. Maybe the idea is that reffing is easy and anybody should be able to do it and never miss a call, but I just don't buy that for the reason I mentioned above - if the crews in the highest level in any sports aren't good enough, then the expectations are too high. We saw in the NFL that you can't just bring in low-level college guys and think they'll be better. The NBA refs are so maligned too but when I try to watch an NBA game, I see a lot of high speed collisions under the basket where the fans of the team who didn't get the call tend to think they were wronged. I don't believe for a second that dynamic changes if the NBA got rid of their refs and hired "good" ones instead (wherever they would come from).

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by molson

The weird thing to be is the disproportionate reaction to ref mistakes which tells me people DO see them as the most important thing and more important than the players.

This is when I conclude the crew is doing an awful job. And after years of watching some of these refs I just get a bad feeling about some of them even before they make a call.

You cant tell me that you dont feel more comfortable with Mike Carey or Walt Coleman in charge over Billy Leavy, Ed Hochili, or Jeff Triplette.

The latter 3 have made so many bad calls in their day I just get uneasy with them being the ref in any game I have an interest in because I feel at some point they will screw up a big play in the game.

John Parry I have been impressed with as well. I guess I am not sure how any of the 3 I mentioned as being good actually grade out but I dont feel uneasy with them as the ref.

[Radii]

http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/12/...-memories.html

Cam Newton is pretty awesome.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

This is when I conclude the crew is doing an awful job. And after years of watching some of these refs I just get a bad feeling about some of them even before they make a call.

You cant tell me that you dont feel more comfortable with Mike Carey or Walt Coleman in charge over Billy Leavy, Ed Hochili, or Jeff Triplette.

The latter 3 have made so many bad calls in their day I just get uneasy with them being the ref in any game I have an interest in because I feel at some point they will screw up a big play in the game.

John Parry I have been impressed with as well. I guess I am not sure how any of the 3 I mentioned as being good actually grade out but I dont feel uneasy with them as the ref.

See how easy it is? We all know the consistently horrible guys. This is not hard. Replace them.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Radii

Fowler: Panthers' Cam Newton gives kids footballs, lasting memories | Scott Fowler | NewsObserver.com

Cam Newton is pretty awesome.

I thought he was going to be a huge bust when he came into the league, but I am perfectly happy at being wrong.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by molson

I think back to that Patriots no-pass interference call in the end zone. Maybe the ref made a mistake in not calling it. But Brady made at least as bad a mistake by terribly under-throwing the ball. If he puts it anywhere near the receiver (Gronk I think), he's getting the call and the Pats probably win the game.

It was not underthrown, it was put exactly where Brady usually hits Gronk, right at the front of the endzone. Gronk is always running little curls there. Carolina knew that, and had the DB break on the ball while the LB carried Gronk away from the target point. The only reason the ball wasn't near Gronk was he was being tackled away from it.

It's actually a beautiful defensive call if Keuchly doesn't decide to tackle Gronkowski, but instead stays between him and the target spot.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Was listening to the morning radio show here in KC. One of the people on the show helps produce NFL games on a weekly basis. He said that he has heard through the CBS grapevine that the NFL is looking to go to a centrally located replay official system in NYC (much like what the NHL already has). He said they are pushing to get it in place by next year. The NFL believes it will take pressure off the on-site referees and also will provide more consistency when reviewing controversial plays.

Next time tell the KC radio guy not to work the CBS grapevine, just read a Roger Goodell interview on NFL.com from a couple weeks ago.

Goodell: NFL to consider centralizing replay reviews - NFL.com

[molson]

Originally Posted by TroyF

See how easy it is? We all know the consistently horrible guys. This is not hard. Replace them.

With who? I'm sure you think the college refs are terrible too.

[molson]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

This is when I conclude the crew is doing an awful job. And after years of watching some of these refs I just get a bad feeling about some of them even before they make a call.

You cant tell me that you dont feel more comfortable with Mike Carey or Walt Coleman in charge over Billy Leavy, Ed Hochili, or Jeff Triplette.

The latter 3 have made so many bad calls in their day I just get uneasy with them being the ref in any game I have an interest in because I feel at some point they will screw up a big play in the game.

John Parry I have been impressed with as well. I guess I am not sure how any of the 3 I mentioned as being good actually grade out but I dont feel uneasy with them as the ref.

I don't pay attention or notice much of a difference. Most calls seem to be correct no matter who's out there, a bunch could go either way, and really only a handful are clearly missed after watching several replays. The refs aren't the most important part of the game for me, I can't even comprehend keeping tracking them and having different favorites and guys I hate. They're nameless drones in funny uniforms (except for Ed Hochili, whom I remember because of the way he explains penalties). Sometimes your team gets a break, sometimes it goes the other way. But players make mistakes too, and announcers (people also can get REALLY pissed off when an announcer makes a mistake for some reason).

[molson]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

It was not underthrown, it was put exactly where Brady usually hits Gronk, right at the front of the endzone. Gronk is always running little curls there. Carolina knew that, and had the DB break on the ball while the LB carried Gronk away from the target point. The only reason the ball wasn't near Gronk was he was being tackled away from it.

It's actually a beautiful defensive call if Keuchly doesn't decide to tackle Gronkowski, but instead stays between him and the target spot.

Well, if you don't think that one was a mistake, I'm pretty sure Tom Brady made plenty of other mistakes in that game, and other games he's played this year. But nobody throws bitch fits over every one.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by molson

So the NFL refs are terrible, but the replacement refs were all terrible too, and I know from the college game threads here that the college refs are all terrible too. Where are the "good" refs? Should the NFL and college conferences just hire FOFC posters? Is that they only way to get every call right?

I would do it but would demand the use of a hoveround.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Certain crews are real bad and they bring down NFL refs as a unit. Most of the crews are really good but the couple bad ones really stick out from the rest.

Tedy Bruschi made an interesting point that physical fitness and mental agility matter a great deal to NFL refs. And that there are a fair amount of refs who struggle with both of those issue due to advancing age. Addressing with some sort of test to be qualified to ref a game.

Versus a baseball umpire who basically stands in one place the whole game. Also see Joey Crawford in the NBA among others since I think the NBA has the same problem.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I thought he was going to be a huge bust when he came into the league, but I am perfectly happy at being wrong.

Me too, I think I was pretty vocal here (by my standards at least) about how badly I thought Carolina had screwed up the #1 pick. I'm quite pleased to have no clue at all what I'm talking about

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

NFL doesn't have a ref who has been caught actually fixing games.

FIFY

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by molson

With who? I'm sure you think the college refs are terrible too.

I actually think there were a lot of very well reffed college games this year. The Pac12 refs are terrible, but I think there are plenty of good crews to pick from out there. I also like what college does for their refs. The reviews are there to get any call right. They don't have to wait for a challenge flag. Helmet to helmet contact can cause an ejection, but they can use the replay booth to make sure it's the right call.

There will always be a worst crew, but some of the crews I am thinking of have a history of botching huge games. Give new blood a chance.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Tedy Bruschi made an interesting point that physical fitness and mental agility matter a great deal to NFL refs. And that there are a fair amount of refs who struggle with both of those issue due to advancing age. Addressing with some sort of test to be qualified to ref a game.

Versus a baseball umpire who basically stands in one place the whole game. Also see Joey Crawford in the NBA among others since I think the NBA has the same problem.

Joey Crawford has a different problem. It was guys like Dick Bavetta who were making a mockery of their profession by not retiring.

[rowech]

Manning's record allowed to stand despite clear evidence to the contrary. Not surprising given so many other questionable decisions this season.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by rowech

Manning's record allowed to stand despite clear evidence to the contrary. Not surprising given so many other questionable decisions this season.

TO be fair, did they also go back and review every pass Brees threw to see if any were close to laterals.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

TO be fair, did they also go back and review every pass Brees threw to see if any were close to laterals.

They check for stat corrections every week to every game so I'm guessing they did.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by rowech

Manning's record allowed to stand despite clear evidence to the contrary. Not surprising given so many other questionable decisions this season.

Taking it away would have been a worse decision.

[Carman Bulldog]

I'm not sure how getting the right call is a worse decision. Not changing it when it was clearly a lateral is an absolutely horrible (and wrong) decision. Elias goes through every game and makes changes each week. Robert Mathis was awarded a sack on a stat change in Week 16 and ended up beating Robert Quinn by 0.5 sacks to lead the league. Should we give the sack crown to Quinn?

It's amusing that a group that is so vocal about getting the calls correct during games then wants to turn a blind eye to the standard process that is used EVERY week to get the stats correct. Is it a tough break because of the record? Sure, but my answer to that is to stay in the game longer. Would he have inevitably broke it? Probably, but maybe he gets injured on the first play in the second half. Let's also not forget that the mark would have been higher if Brees didn't come out in his final game.

What if the situation were reversed and he was 6 yards shy of the record but had thrown a pass that went 7 yards but in the game was scored as a lateral? Should they correct it (as they do EVERY game)? You're damn right they should and this is no different.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

I'm not sure how getting the right call is a worse decision. Not changing it when it was clearly a lateral is an absolutely horrible (and wrong) decision. Elias goes through every game and makes changes each week. Robert Mathis was awarded a sack on a stat change in Week 16 and ended up beating Robert Quinn by 0.5 sacks to lead the league. Should we give the sack crown to Quinn?

It's amusing that a group that is so vocal about getting the calls correct during games then wants to turn a blind eye to the standard process that is used EVERY week to get the stats correct. Is it a tough break because of the record? Sure, but my answer to that is to stay in the game longer. Would he have inevitably broke it? Probably, but maybe he gets injured on the first play in the second half. Let's also not forget that the mark would have been higher if Brees didn't come out in his final game.

What if the situation were reversed and he was 6 yards shy of the record but had thrown a pass that went 7 yards but in the game was scored as a lateral? Should they correct it (as they do EVERY game)? You're damn right they should and this is no different.

Exactly. This is just flat out ignoring something that in every other week would have been changed.

[Julio Riddols]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I thought he was going to be a huge bust when he came into the league, but I am perfectly happy at being wrong.

Me too, but he has been a solid QB and a good dude in general. It's getting easier to like the guy.

[Patriots12]

I think that people should stop complaining about the referees and complain more about the NFL. Every offseason they put new rules in the rulebook that make it harder for the refs to remember all these new rules. For example, the chargers having 7 men on one side is a rule that has never been called and those officials most likely forgot about these rules. The NFL needs to take out a few rules so that the officials can remember all these rules.

Unfortunately the new rules have also cost the patriots the game against the Jets. The rules states that you cant push another player on the offensive lineman. So how does two defensive lineman back to back get called. This is ruining the integrity of the game. Clearly the NFL needs to fix these errors. I pray that there are no errors that cost a team in the playoffs.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I thought he was going to be a huge bust when he came into the league, but I am perfectly happy at being wrong.

I thought the same thing too.