Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[Sun Tzu]

I watched TNA tonight. This marks the first time I've sat through an entire wrestling show since the WWE/ECW One Night Stand PPV.

I agree with JimGA that the ladies backstage were terrible. I've never been a big fan of female wrestling anyway, short of a good Beulah/Francine catfight. I thought the X-division match was just terrible. This Brian Kendrick kid seemed extremely green, and I noticed several badly missed spots throughout the match. The ladder match between Beer Run and MCMG was probably the best match of the night, at least IMO. I was a big ECW fan dating back to Barely Legal, so I liked the ending of the show for sure, especially considering I had no idea some of these guys were on the TNA roster. Hopefully the folks who write the storylines wont crap all over themselves like the WWF/WWE did with the invasion angle.

Also...what the hell happened to Scott Levy/Raven? Why does he look like he stopped working out and ate nothing but fast food and beer for 4 years straight?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I've never been a big fan of female wrestling anyway, short of a good Beulah/Francine catfight.

Please don't judge them on the basis of that disaster though. Taylor can work a fair bit, just not brawl style. She's not Dean Malenko but she's not anywhere near as bad as she looked.

This Brian Kendrick kid seemed extremely green, and I noticed several badly missed spots throughout the match.

Heh, given how long since you'd watched an entire show, Kendrick being unfamiliar really isn't surprising. But he's not green, just sloppy at times. That's a 31 y/o former WWE Tag Team Champion (w/Paul London), green really isn't an option for him at this stage of his career but he does seem to be one of the people that Dixie Carter might have meant when she slammed the roster for needing to tighten up their performances. He's also stuck in an feud and against an opponent that, IMO, really doesn't suit his style that well either.

I was a big ECW fan dating back to Barely Legal, so I liked the ending of the show for sure, especially considering I had no idea some of these guys were on the TNA roster.

Well some of them aren't on the roster, or rather hadn't been until recently. Ray & Devon are regulars, so is RVD for the past few months, Taz joined the broadcast crew in 2009, Foley came over last year as a part-time wrestler & part "owner" character. Rhino was a TNA mainstay for several years but has been virtually invisible in the company since the arrival of Hogan/Bischoff, July was his first TV appearance since March. Stevie Richards had a fairly short run of mostly non-wrestling appearances for TNA last year. Al Snow & Pat Kenney (aka Simon Diamond) are both road agents for TNA, while Dreamer recently arrived after his WWE release but hasn't wrestled yet. Meanwhile Raven had worked for TNA several times since their inception but has been gone. Other ECW alums who have some sort of TNA history but that haven't appeared in this latest angle yet would include Spike Dudley, Shane Douglas, Scott D'Amore, Sabu, and Jerry Lynn.

Also...what the hell happened to Scott Levy/Raven? Why does he look like he stopped working out and ate nothing but fast food and beer for 4 years straight?

For starters, he's almost 47, so some decline is probably natural. He's also not exactly known for living the healthiest lifestyle during at least the earlier parts of career so I'd imagine he's carrying more mileage than some of the other guys. He also hasn't been in the ring outside of a few indy appearances in more than a year.

[Sun Tzu]

Thanks for being so helpful. As odd as this sounds, you being helpful is probably going to lead to me watching TNA with some regularity now. I'm excited about Sabu being on the TNA roster...I had no idea. Is it true he shaved his head? What are the chances that Taz finally gets off his ass and back in the ring? What's the Sandman doing these days? Did the WWE completely drop the ECW brand? It seems like most of the ECW originals that were wrestling with the WWE have been released and signed elsewhere.

Bummer on Levy. I know he was getting up there in age, but he looks absolutely terrible. I mean if he could just trim down on the beer gut it would be an improvement, but as it is he looks like Jim Duggan without the guns and half cross-eye.

Regarding the ECW invasion angle...I'm not sure how this is going to work. I just can't see anyone in ECW going toe to toe with the Hulkster, maybe Taz or Shane but to me it sounds like they have been phased out wrestling wise.

[molson]

TNA can be a little disorganized and confusing at time, but my favorite thing about it is that the roster is so fluid. You never really know who you'll see. People are always coming and going. At some point, the WWE decided they needed a fixed "roster", so you see the same matches and wrestlers and angles over and over and over again.

TNA is kind of a mess, but at least it's a somewhat unpredictable mess.

[Sun Tzu]

I've tried to watch WWE shows over the last couple years, but I can't get through more than 20 minutes without turning it off. The WWE reminds me of Madden. They feel like they don't have any competition anymore, so they can serve you shit on toast and tell you it's a gourmet meal, and you have to either eat it or starve. I will never, ever, ever understand the whole hubub surrounding John Cena. Don't people get tired of seeing the extreme over-the-top political correctness, zip zilch squat for charisma, and the same 4 moves over and over?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Thanks for being so helpful. As odd as this sounds, you being helpful is probably going to lead to me watching TNA with some regularity now. I'm excited about Sabu being on the TNA roster...I had no idea. Is it true he shaved his head? What are the chances that Taz finally gets off his ass and back in the ring? What's the Sandman doing these days?

Sabu isn't on the roster currently, but he was a couple of years ago. Same w/ Franchise and the others I mentioned in that group.

Virtually no chance of seeing Taz in the ring afaik, his neck injury history makes that pretty much impossible to do safely as I understand it. Sandman officially retired in late '08, although he did work a couple of indy promotion matches about middle '09. He's pretty much completely shot physically as far as I could tell, all he had left was standing on the ringposts drinking beer & even that was sloppy.

Did the WWE completely drop the ECW brand? It seems like most of the ECW originals that were wrestling with the WWE have been released and signed elsewhere.

Yes, the brand was killed officially with the introduction of NXT. Most of them are now either unemployed or at least hanging around TNA.

Regarding the ECW invasion angle...I'm not sure how this is going to work. I just can't see anyone in ECW going toe to toe with the Hulkster, maybe Taz or Shane but to me it sounds like they have been phased out wrestling wise.

One of the questions is whether they'll have any interaction with Hogan. If you believe the 'net, TNA continues to negotiate with Paul Heyman to take a management role but he's consistently reported as holding out for total control or nothing at all. There doesn't seem to be any room for Heyman to co-exist with Hogan & Bischoff (since they have most of the creative control of TNA at the moment, with Russo essentially working for them or own his own with other angles), so something will have to give one way or the other.
I don't believe for a minute that Hogan et al can or will do anything ultimately worthwhile with any ECW angle, Heyman might at least have a chance to pull something off ... if you don't give him a checkbook

[DeToxRox]

PWI said the ECW angle ends at the PPV. It's a one off deal and there are no plans to continue it after the show. That'd be classic TNA though; give up a ton of TV time and an entire PPV to a one off concept.

[Sun Tzu]

So...if that were the case, it's just a quick way to publicly introduce a few new workers to the roster? What the...

[Sun Tzu]

Oh it's not the quality of the wrestling, it's the lack of matches and absolutely god awful angles. I'd probably be ok with a second or third tier show like the old WCW Worldwide that had nothing but matches, but I have no idea when those shows are on.

[molson]

PPVs are also still wrestling-heavy. The WWE is still largely using the business model of using TV angles/interviews to sell PPV wrestling.

They're not worth $50 of whatever the hell they cost now, but if since you've sat out being a fan for so long, you might find some old PPV DVD rentals that might be worth tracking down.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Oh it's not the quality of the wrestling, it's the lack of matches and absolutely god awful angles. I'd probably be ok with a second or third tier show like the old WCW Worldwide that had nothing but matches, but I have no idea when those shows are on.

In terms of actual wrestling you're pretty much SOL with any of the national shows, they're very close to the same.

Here's a pretty detailed breakdown of the wrestling by company & show, covering the last 20 weeks
BEHIND THE NUMBERS: LOOKING BACK AT THE FIRST TWENTY WEEKS OF BY THE NUMBERS | PWInsider.com

The link breaks things down all sorts of ways but the bottom line is this:

Raw averages about 4.5 mins/match & 5.5 matches/show
SD averages 5.2 mins/match & 5 matches/show
NXT averages 4.4 mins/match & 2.7 matches/show
S'stars averages 5.9 mins/match & 3.5 matches/show
Impact averages about 4.5 mins/match & 5.65 matches/show

The most wrestling per hour average in the past 20 weeks has been 2 Raw specials (1x commercial free & 1x 3 hour episode) and 3 Smackdowns. This week's Impact would have cracked the top 5 but the bar isn't very high, they only averaged 17 mins/hour this week and that's their highest mark yet.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Cena's actually a solid wrestler. Not a great wrestler, but he can be in great matches with the right opponent. Yeah, his promos usually suck, but that's the fault of the writers they got, not him.

I think a lot of people overbash the WWE when it comes to the actual quality of their wrestling. Most main events on RAW or Smackdown are solid, it's unheard of that both of the World title matches on PPV are actually bad and if you're liable to get a solid matches on the second-tier shows like Superstars because people are actually given time.

I would recommend watching some Ring of Honor, Pro Wrestling Guerilla or even some stuff from Japan (NJPW, NOAH, Dragon Gate).

My son loves John Cena because he's very cartoony and tells lots of fart jokes, but in terms of actual wrestling quality it pales to a lot of stuff that's just outside the mainstream.

I still like the WWE but definitely watch it for a totally different experience, definitely not for the actual match quality.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

RoH can be very good at times. PWG, Dragon Gate USA and Chikara also provide good wrestling talent but my problem with them all is lack of psychology.

To be sure RoH has awesome moments but their roster isn't what it was a couple of years ago.

I'm digging watching the first episode of Lucha Libre USA on MTV2 right now as I've only seen pieces of Lucha over the years and don't speak Spanish at all so I didn't know basics like the captain role in a trios match.

I had forgotten about this show, saw it mentioned earlier this week but it slipped my mind. Couldn't help but chuckle a little when I found the roster, which includes Marco Corleone (aka Mark Jindrak ex-WCW), Rellik (ex-TNA, ex-WCW as Johnny the Bull, ex-WWE as Johnny Stamboli), Chi Chi (aka Angry Allan Funk ex-WCW), Tigressa Caliente (aka Trenesha Biggers aka Rhaka Kahn ex-TNA),and RJ Brewer (aka John Walters from the indies). The chuckle really came when I realized that AAA regular Charley Manson has been renamed as Charley Malice.

Considering the non-mini roster is about 16 people, that's a pretty high number of castoffs, although Jindrak has supposedly found his niche after working south of the border for several years now. There are a few legit luchadores mixed in -- Tineblas Jr, Lizmark, Jr, Mascarita Sagrada (as Mascarita Dorada), Halloween -- but this has potential to be pretty bad stuff.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

I actually do watch all of the above and my opinion remains the same. No, Cena's never going to pull out a 60-minute broadway (unless he's against HBK again), but he's a good wrestler in his style and can have a great match against a good opponent. Just for example, his match against Umaga at the RR would be a good match no matter the era or fed it happened in.

Careful, something bad is gonna happen if we agree on much

The Cena discussion a few pages back pretty much covered my thoughts, I've developed a good bit of respect for what Cena has done & what he brings to the table.

[rjolley]

When are they going to turn Cena heel? I know he's their top face, but it would be a very interesting move to turn him heel, maybe to lead his new group from NXT.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Better than I expected. The Trios match was pretty solid, the minis tag was good enough, and the main event could have been good if they'd drop the stupid jelly donut bit.

Doing some reading tonight during this discussion, appears that Fat Jelly Donut Guy is someone who trained at the school in Atlanta where Jindrak worked for a couple of years. I suspect that explains his contract.

Haven't seen anything about Rellik unless he's one of the random renames.

I've seen him mentioned in a couple of spoilers & sure enough he's there on the roster page
Roster :

I liked Funk as a worker back in the day and can't believe that was him tonight. Really working the gimmick.

Kwee Wee amped up is what I gather.

[molson]

Speaking of Cena, I miss that part of his run where he was booked as a hugely sympathetic face, but was treated by the fans as a hated heel. A heel turn would have been predictable there, but the WWE just kept trotting him out as the same babyface character (while openly acknowledging the fan hate), culminating in the One Night Stand PPV where they KNEW their golden boy would be boo'd out of the arena.

That was the last time WWE booking was interesting....It's been just kind of paint-by-numbers since then.

But as for Cena, he won the fans back and has been a consistently solid performer his entire run.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Kwee Wee.

Don't get me excited.

[Sun Tzu]

Loved Tommy's speech on Impact...love

[Sun Tzu]

Right but...tell us how you really feel.

[JonInMiddleGA]

From today's New York Times of all places

Abdullah the Butcher Sustains a Wrestling Career - NYTimes.com

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

From today's New York Times of all places

Abdullah the Butcher Sustains a Wrestling Career - NYTimes.com

Have you ever been down to his restaurant in Atlanta?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Have you ever been down to his restaurant in Atlanta?

Once, maybe 10 years ago.

Kinda so-so food (I'm not much for ribs & that's supposed to be his best) but cool for a few minutes in a kitschy way. Kind of a bucket list sort of thing for a wrestling fan but not something I'd recommend on the basis of dining alone. He was engaged in a conversation with someone that didn't look wise to interrupt so we ate, looked around at some old pictures on the wall, and left.

[Toddzilla]

I'd have to bring home a fork

[Matthean]

ECW. ECW. ECW

Hopefully leads to Macho Man being in the Hall

[Sun Tzu]

Tommy Dreamer could kick your butt.

I'm also pretty sure that his dad could beat up your dad.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

His dad probably could. Dreamer can't walk down a ramp without hurting himself. ECW had some great, innovative aspects to it. Dreamer was indicative of the garbage fans winning out and the real workers leaving/being signed away.

From a purely in ring standpoint, the downfall of ECW was Heyman strapping the rocket to Justin Credible. Credible was okay but he should not have been pushed as hard as he was, he just wasn't ready and couldn't handle it. It helped speed up the process as far as ECW dying.

[Sun Tzu]

Tox has a point...at least Dreamer could rouse up some drama. Credible was a missed spot (or five) waiting to happen.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Credible was a missed spot (or five) waiting to happen.

As opposed to the blown spot king of all-time RVD?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

RVD's blown spots are athletic/entertaining.

FTR I kind of got what they were shooting for with Credible, it worked for me a little but not a lot, so it's not as though I was a fan of his. But in terms of Blown Spots, RVD was about as bad as I can recall seeing although I'll admit to the possibility of being influenced by watching him screw up repeatedly in person at Wrestlepalooza '98.

[DeToxRox]

I loved RVD but his matches were very repetitive, and he wasn't the blown spot King, he was the second in command though. Sabu was Mr. Blown Spot but he was doing some wonky stuff.

At the end of ECW the talent wasn't there and I think Heyman was trying his hardest to make lightning strike.

Funny story from the guys at PWI (who were there running ECW.com) but Christopher Daniels showed up in the last year and worked a few shots. He was over with the crowd but someone (intimated to be Dreamer) said he had an awful look and couldn't ever get over. Daniels is great in all facets but his look is holding him back. Still I think he could have been huge for ECW if given the chance. It's unlikely things would have been different but it is something I wonder about.

[Sun Tzu]

I find wrestling is much less exciting when you have already read all the spoilers. Bleh

I have to say I was quite impressed by the Motor City...somethingorother. Those boys can wrestle.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sabin & Shelley, aka The Motor City Machineguns, are a couple of guys who came from the indys into TNA and probably should have gotten bigger than they ended up. They've have had some problems with heat in the back (reportedly of course) and that's held them back at times IMO.

[spleen1015]

Stopped and watched a little RAW last night. I saw Golddust lose to some Celtic dude named Sheamus that is the champ right now.

Is this Golddust the same one? Dustin Rhodes I think?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Stopped and watched a little RAW last night. I saw Golddust lose to some Celtic dude named Sheamus that is the champ right now. Is this Golddust the same one? Dustin Rhodes I think?

That'd be him.

[Mota]

Samoa Joe has been suspended from TNA for 1 month. That is ridiculous, TNA should be worshipping this guy and instead he gets buried under crap like Kevin Nash, Raven, Tommy Dreamer and Hulk Hogan. What year is it anyways?

The scary thing is that TNA's top talent that they should be pushing are so damaged by now after years of abuse that I'm not sure if they can be properly elevated. Guys like the Motor City Machine Guns, Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, etc. These are the guys that TNA should revolve around, but instead they get to play on the periphery as Dixie is enthralled by the big names of legacy WWE guys who are years past their prime.

It's sad that the WWE seem to be the ones pushing new talent recently, and believe it or not their ratings are increasing. Young people will relate to new emerging talent, it's just the way that life goes. It's just like music, you'll always love the music you first got laid to. In TNA the kids can't relate to these guys because it's like hero worshipping someone's dad and not someone cool.

[DeToxRox]

Shane McMahon was named CEO of China Broadband today.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Mota

Samoa Joe has been suspended from TNA for 1 month. That is ridiculous, TNA should be worshipping this guy and instead he gets buried under crap like Kevin Nash, Raven, Tommy Dreamer and Hulk Hogan. What year is it anyways?

The scary thing is that TNA's top talent that they should be pushing are so damaged by now after years of abuse that I'm not sure if they can be properly elevated. Guys like the Motor City Machine Guns, Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, etc. These are the guys that TNA should revolve around, but instead they get to play on the periphery as Dixie is enthralled by the big names of legacy WWE guys who are years past their prime.

It's sad that the WWE seem to be the ones pushing new talent recently, and believe it or not their ratings are increasing. Young people will relate to new emerging talent, it's just the way that life goes. It's just like music, you'll always love the music you first got laid to. In TNA the kids can't relate to these guys because it's like hero worshipping someone's dad and not someone cool.

You know TNA's ratings are going up and they had their highest ratings since Feb.? On another forum they even mention how much better TNA is getting by using the young guys and they have been on an upward swing as of late, hence the ratings increase.

Source

EDIT: If Joe got suspended, then there was likely a good reason and it wasn't "because we need to push the old guys."

[JonInMiddleGA]

On the bright side, TNA has confirmed the signing of Too Cold Scorpio for the PPV.

Damn, I bet the price of pot around Orlando has skyrocketed in recent weeks.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Matthean

You know TNA's ratings are going up and they had their highest ratings since Feb.?

Umm, they're ratings have been largely flat for months, only now getting back to where they were in 2008 and even parts of 2007. There was indeed a noticeable bump last week but it's been attributed almost entirely to kids age 12-17. Not sure that's something they can count on lasting long.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Matthean

EDIT: If Joe got suspended, then there was likely a good reason and it wasn't "because we need to push the old guys."

The reason making the rounds is that he pretty much exploded after the old "30 seconds remaining" announcement was made during his recent match vs Hardy and completely telegraphed the finish.

No confirmation on whether it really was Russo who ordered the announcement made, but that's one of the rumors that's been floating, although it was the production staff that Joe took most of his anger out on.

In reality, Joe is suspended because there's not a soul in charge at TNA who has the slightest idea what the fuck they're doing.

[CU Tiger]

John...for a casual fan can you explain your last post?
I just went and checked out the youtube video..not sure I get it.

Was he not expecting to show a draw?
And how did he telegraph the finish?

I may just be missing it...just not seeing anything there at all?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

John...for a casual fan can you explain your last post? I just went and checked out the youtube video..not sure I get it.
Was he not expecting to show a draw? And how did he telegraph the finish?
I may just be missing it...just not seeing anything there at all?

Borash makes the 30 seconds announcement, which pretty much assured long time fans what the outcome of the match was going to be. At the :12/:13 mark, check out the look that Joe shoots over his shoulder toward the general direction of where Borash was standing.

Not making an announcement was something that had (reportedly of course) been discussed prior to the match, a point that Joe was apparently adamant about.

IMO, as soon as fans heard there was a time limit, the outcome was fairly predictable with or without Borash reminding them of it. Certainly the announcement was a huge verbal neon arrow of what was coming, whereas it's possible that at least the live audience might have been distracted enough by the match to have been caught off guard by the eventual occurrence of the time limit expiring & given a better reaction.

That said, if the reports are accurate, the point that set Joe off backstage seems more likely to me to have been thinking there the issue of the :30 warning had been settled beforehand, only to have gotten swerved by his own backstage crew.