Front Office Football Central  

Go Back   Front Office Football Central > Main Forums > Off Topic
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read Statistics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-17-2021, 07:21 PM   #3001
RainMaker
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Originally Posted by miami_fan View Post
Well given that we are wedded to the binary in so many ways, it's either they just wanted Taliban rule OR they wanted democracy in the way we see it. They did not accept the second option so they HAD to have wanted the first option. There are no other acceptable answers.

Well we never really offer democracy to these countries. They can pick a leader, but it has to be someone we approve of who will hand all the valuable resources to our businesses. It's the same proposition we've made in Central and South America for half a century.

Plus we aren't exactly all that big on democracy in our own country, so maybe we shouldn't be the ones trying to set it up elsewhere.
RainMaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2021, 07:39 PM   #3002
Brian Swartz
Grizzled Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainmaker
The Taliban did offer to hand Bin Laden over to us. We said no.

They did no such thing, and specifically refused to. The Taliban offered first to try Bin Laden in Afghanistan, and then later went as far as saying they were willing to hand Bin Laden only, none of the rest of the organization, over to a third country that the US would agree to not put pressure on for extradition etc, for trial in that hypothetical third country. This was accompanied by a demand for evidence, evidence they had already been given not just by us, but also by Pakistan after they'd reviewed our information.

I think those are and were transparently unreasonable terms.

I think you're largely correct when it comes to corruption on the military side of things, and partially when it comes to keeping our hands on the wheel too much in forming the new Afghan government. But this idea that all we had to do is accept them handing over Bin Laden to avert a war just isn't so.

Last edited by Brian Swartz : 08-17-2021 at 07:43 PM.
Brian Swartz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2021, 07:45 PM   #3003
miami_fan
Coordinator
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Land O Lakes FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker View Post
Well we never really offer democracy to these countries. They can pick a leader, but it has to be someone we approve of who will hand all the valuable resources to our businesses. It's the same proposition we've made in Central and South America for half a century.

Plus we aren't exactly all that big on democracy in our own country, so maybe we shouldn't be the ones trying to set it up elsewhere.

Quote:
it's either they just wanted Taliban rule OR they wanted democracy in the way we see it.

For emphasis.
__________________
"The blind soldier fought for me in this war. The least I can do now is fight for him. I have eyes. He hasn’t. I have a voice on the radio, he hasn’t. I was born a white man. And until a colored man is a full citizen, like me, I haven’t the leisure to enjoy the freedom that colored man risked his life to maintain for me. I don’t own what I have until he owns an equal share of it. Until somebody beats me and blinds me, I am in his debt."- Orson Welles August 11, 1946
miami_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2021, 07:49 PM   #3004
sterlingice
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Back in Houston!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Swartz View Post
Least you could do is stay current pal. I made this bad joke yesterday :P

Dad jokes are always better the second time around

(whoops, my bad)

SI
__________________
Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out!

Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!"
Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"



Last edited by sterlingice : 08-17-2021 at 07:51 PM.
sterlingice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2021, 08:16 PM   #3005
RainMaker
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Swartz View Post
They did no such thing, and specifically refused to. The Taliban offered first to try Bin Laden in Afghanistan, and then later went as far as saying they were willing to hand Bin Laden only, none of the rest of the organization, over to a third country that the US would agree to not put pressure on for extradition etc, for trial in that hypothetical third country. This was accompanied by a demand for evidence, evidence they had already been given not just by us, but also by Pakistan after they'd reviewed our information.

I think those are and were transparently unreasonable terms.

I think you're largely correct when it comes to corruption on the military side of things, and partially when it comes to keeping our hands on the wheel too much in forming the new Afghan government. But this idea that all we had to do is accept them handing over Bin Laden to avert a war just isn't so.

The Taliban offered many times to turn him over if the United States would provide them with evidence he was behind the attack. They even were willing to involve the OIC which is a very favorable bloc that is pro-US. The Taliban is obviously not a reliable source, but neither is George Bush.

Ignoring the fact we had no extradition treaty with Afghanistan, there are next to no countries who would willingly turn over people without evidence or an agreement. That includes our closest allies.

The United States had no interest in trying Bin Laden. It's why their offers were always vague enough to be out of reach (just like they did with Iraq). They wanted war. Likely a mix of the country needing the morale boost of blowing up some brown folks and enriching military contractors.

But the fact is that the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are different entities with different goals. The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11.
RainMaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2021, 08:20 PM   #3006
RainMaker
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
For those who are surprised Afghans would support the Taliban, remember that we spent the 80's pumping their citizens with radical Islamic materials in the hopes it would help them fight the Soviets better.

You spend billions pumping propaganda into a country and then are shocked that they bought it.
RainMaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2021, 09:49 PM   #3007
Vegas Vic
Checkraising Tourists
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cocoa Beach, FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker View Post
For those who are surprised Afghans would support the Taliban, remember that we spent the 80's pumping their citizens with radical Islamic materials in the hopes it would help them fight the Soviets better.

The Soviet Union did a much better job of trying to force their ideology on Afghanistan than we did. After withdrawing, it took three years for their Marxist puppet government to fall, and it took three weeks for our democratic puppet government to fall.
Vegas Vic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2021, 10:24 PM   #3008
Brian Swartz
Grizzled Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker
Ignoring the fact we had no extradition treaty with Afghanistan, there are next to no countries who would willingly turn over people without evidence or an agreement. That includes our closest allies.

They were given evidence though. By Pakistan, who got it from us. Pakistan agreed the evidence was sufficient, and they were longstanding Taliban allies, having fought with them against the Northern Alliance in numbers of tens of thousands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker
the fact is that the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are different entities with different goals. The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11.

They absolutely were different entities with different goals, but they were also de facto allies. This wasn't the first time the Taliban had been furnished proof of Bin Laden's involvement of terrorism and asked to take action. This included, among other elements, UN Security Council Resolution 1267 which, almost two years prior to 9/11, demanded Bin Laden be turned over and that the Taliban stop permitting it's territory be used for terrorist training activities. It's not as if 9/11 happened and it was the first thing Bin Laden had done, the Taliban were shocked that their friend would do such a thing and needed proof to verify it. The international community had been very clear with them in escalating terms leading up to 9/11 and had gotten nowhere.
Brian Swartz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2021, 10:54 PM   #3009
Vegas Vic
Checkraising Tourists
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cocoa Beach, FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Swartz View Post
This included, among other elements, UN Security Council Resolution 1267 which, almost two years prior to 9/11, demanded Bin Laden be turned over and that the Taliban stop permitting it's territory be used for terrorist training activities. It's not as if 9/11 happened and it was the first thing Bin Laden had done, the Taliban were shocked that their friend would do such a thing and needed proof to verify it. The international community had been very clear with them in escalating terms leading up to 9/11 and had gotten nowhere.

The Taliban were complicit with and very accommodating of several Al Qaeda training camps, the most notorious of which was the Al Farouq training camp which operated unabated throughout the 90's until September 2001. Four of the 9/11 hijackers received their basic training at Al Farouq.
Vegas Vic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2021, 11:53 AM   #3010
RainMaker
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Wait till you guys hear about Saudi Arabia.....

The Taliban are bad but they also didn't have anything to do with 9/11. There are a lot more countries and groups in that region who helped 9/11 than the Taliban ever did.
RainMaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2021, 04:21 PM   #3011
Vegas Vic
Checkraising Tourists
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cocoa Beach, FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker View Post
The Taliban are bad but they also didn't have anything to do with 9/11. There are a lot more countries and groups in that region who helped 9/11 than the Taliban ever did.

There are a lot of very fine people on both sides.
Vegas Vic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2021, 05:05 PM   #3012
miami_fan
Coordinator
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Land O Lakes FL
Afghan President Ashraf Ghani reportedly fled Kabul with $169 million in cash

Yes, the source is the Russian Embassy. Yes, the Afghan president says it is not true. No, I am not letting any of those things get in the way of the story as reported.

Quote:
Afghan President Ashraf Ghani has been "welcomed" to the United Arab Emirates on "humanitarian grounds," the UAE government confirmed Wednesday. On Sunday, Ghani fled Kabul without announcement or known destination, as the Taliban laid siege to Afghanistan's capital, writes CNBC. He took with him $169 million in cash, reports BBC journalist Kawoon Khamoosh.
__________________
"The blind soldier fought for me in this war. The least I can do now is fight for him. I have eyes. He hasn’t. I have a voice on the radio, he hasn’t. I was born a white man. And until a colored man is a full citizen, like me, I haven’t the leisure to enjoy the freedom that colored man risked his life to maintain for me. I don’t own what I have until he owns an equal share of it. Until somebody beats me and blinds me, I am in his debt."- Orson Welles August 11, 1946

Last edited by miami_fan : 08-18-2021 at 05:06 PM. Reason: Added correct link
miami_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2021, 05:19 PM   #3013
sterlingice
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Back in Houston!
How do you carry around $169M in cash? Like even if they're all hundreds, that's over a million bills.

Grasping Large Numbers

"The height of a stack of 1,000,000 one dollar bills measures 4,300 inches or 358 feet – about the height of a 30 to 35 story building."

SI
__________________
Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out!

Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!"
Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"



Last edited by sterlingice : 08-18-2021 at 05:20 PM.
sterlingice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2021, 05:28 PM   #3014
molson
General Manager
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
Quote:
Originally Posted by sterlingice View Post
How do you carry around $169M in cash? Like even if they're all hundreds, that's over a million bills.

Grasping Large Numbers

"The height of a stack of 1,000,000 one dollar bills measures 4,300 inches or 358 feet – about the height of a 30 to 35 story building."

SI

Corrupt world leaders have access to higher denomination bills.

Spoiler

Last edited by molson : 08-18-2021 at 05:29 PM.
molson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2021, 05:37 PM   #3015
miami_fan
Coordinator
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Land O Lakes FL
The fact that it is supposedly USDs as opposed to Euros or some other currency is fitting. Almost like it was shipped directly from the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. Almost.
__________________
"The blind soldier fought for me in this war. The least I can do now is fight for him. I have eyes. He hasn’t. I have a voice on the radio, he hasn’t. I was born a white man. And until a colored man is a full citizen, like me, I haven’t the leisure to enjoy the freedom that colored man risked his life to maintain for me. I don’t own what I have until he owns an equal share of it. Until somebody beats me and blinds me, I am in his debt."- Orson Welles August 11, 1946
miami_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2021, 08:18 PM   #3016
sterlingice
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Back in Houston!
Quote:
Originally Posted by molson View Post
Corrupt world leaders have access to higher denomination bills.

I was going to make a trillion dollar bill joke and then didn't. Good to see someone picked up the spare on my 7-10 split

SI
__________________
Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out!

Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!"
Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"


sterlingice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2021, 09:58 PM   #3017
molson
General Manager
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
After the mediocre presidents reference it was the least I could do.

Last edited by molson : 08-18-2021 at 10:00 PM.
molson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 07:10 AM   #3018
Edward64
Head Coach
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
No idea how this will play out or how real the story re: ability to resist is, but interesting tidbit that ties back to previous post about Massoud.

Inside the Afghanistan province that refuses Taliban control
Quote:
The small, picturesque province of Panjshir – meaning “five lions” – at the foot of the lush Hindu Kush mountain range has become the last bulwark against Taliban fighters, who have seized the country at breakneck speed after America’s pullout.
:
In the immediate aftermath of Kabul’s fall to the insurgents Sunday, high-ranking Afghanistan government officials immediately directed helicopters and armored vehicles to be sent to Panjshir before the equipment could be seized by the Taliban.

A number of Afghan Special Forces and security personnel who rebuffed orders to put down their weapons and accede to the Taliban also took the bumpy road into the province before the Taliban could seal the city’s entries and exits.

And while the Taliban have claimed Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar to be the embattled nation’s rightful leader, First Vice-President (FVP) of Afghanistan Amrullah Saleh relocated to Panjshir on Sunday and declared himself the president. Citing the country’s constitution, he reiterated in a statement that “in the event of escape, resignation or death of the President, the FVP becomes the caretaker President.
:
According to Hayat, several other high-ranking government leaders – including its minister of defense and some provincial commanders – are in Panjshir, too, to mobilize assets and prepare to defend the mosaic of land as the region makes what could be its last stand against the Taliban.

The treasured area is now presided over by 32-year-old, British-educated Ahmad Massoud, who commands thousands of deeply dedicated fighters to protect the parcel and is the son of late national hero and anti-Soviet resistance fighter Ahmad Shah Massoud.
:
The Panjshir Valley remains the only parcel of Afghan soil that has never succumb to Taliban control, including during the militant group’s previous reign from 1996 to 2001.

And throughout much of the US-led occupation of Afghanistan, which saw blood stain most of the landlocked country, Panjshir remained largely untouched as a result of its same devoted force of locals.
Edward64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 10:10 AM   #3019
Vegas Vic
Checkraising Tourists
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cocoa Beach, FL
Yeah, it's too bad that former vice president Amrullah Saleh wasn't the president all along. He tweeted this earlier this week:

Quote:
I will never, ever & under no circumstances bow to d Talib terrorists. I will never betray d soul & legacy of my hero Ahmad Shah Masoud, the commander, the legend & the guide. I won't dis-appoint millions who listened to me. I will never be under one ceiling with Taliban. NEVER.
Vegas Vic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 11:10 AM   #3020
NobodyHere
Coordinator
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas Vic View Post
Yeah, it's too bad that former vice president Amrullah Saleh wasn't the president all along. He tweeted this earlier this week:

As our last President proved, there is no problem that can't be solved by tweeting!
__________________
"I am God's prophet, and I need an attorney"
NobodyHere is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 11:28 AM   #3021
RainMaker
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas Vic View Post
There are a lot of very fine people on both sides.

It's a factual statement. The Taliban did not commit 9/11. I know it's against the 20 years of propaganda spewed but it's the truth.

The Taliban is a horrendous, backward ass piece of shit group. But they didn't commit 9/11 and we never really went after the people that helped facilitate it (because they sell us a lot of oil or have scary weapons).
RainMaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 11:36 AM   #3022
sterlingice
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Back in Houston!
So, more accurately "there's a lot of bad people on both sides?"

SI
__________________
Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out!

Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!"
Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"


sterlingice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 12:10 PM   #3023
JPhillips
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY


White nationalists are gonna white nationalist
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers
JPhillips is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 12:12 PM   #3024
NobodyHere
Coordinator
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Dare I say that anyone who didn't answer that question as "Neither good nor bad" is a racist?
__________________
"I am God's prophet, and I need an attorney"

Last edited by NobodyHere : 08-19-2021 at 12:35 PM.
NobodyHere is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 12:18 PM   #3025
PilotMan
Head Coach
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seven miles up
Re Afghanistan:

I really don't know why people are so up in arms about all this. Look, they had 20 years to figure it out, now, when the money and assistance walks away, are they pointing back and saying that we've done nothing and abandoned them. Look, in a country that essentially operated like a bunch of Sith Warlords, even in the 'legitimate' part that was set up, if you don't appease every corner all the time, they turn and cut you behind your back to seize power at the next level. That's the way that it was before 9/11 and that's how it'll be now. Mostly because the country is so isolated economically from the world that all leadership is based from the ground up. So if my corner doesn't like what the leadership at the top says, I reject it, then get a whole bunch of people to side with me and reject it, and then I claim my own leadership status until I'm deposed by someone else, and rinse and repeat forever. So after 20 years of trying to make inroads in that culture, and largely getting undercut by the Taliban and their foreign supporters we leave, and we leave the rest of them to the country that they wanted all along. The Taliban are more brutal and not afraid of using force to keep everyone in line, and while that's not terribly enlightened it's got to give Jon a huge boner. The country has the leaders and government that they always wanted, because if they wanted something else, someone else, or a legit group would have garnered enough support to make it happen with the billions that have flowed into the country.
__________________
He's just like if Snow White was competitive, horny, and capable of beating the shit out of anyone that called her Pops.

Like Steam?
Join the FOFC Steam group here: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/FOFConSteam




Last edited by PilotMan : 08-19-2021 at 12:19 PM.
PilotMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 12:25 PM   #3026
RainMaker
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Originally Posted by sterlingice View Post
So, more accurately "there's a lot of bad people on both sides?"

SI

I would say that is a fair assessment.
RainMaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 12:26 PM   #3027
RainMaker
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Originally Posted by PilotMan View Post
Re Afghanistan:

I really don't know why people are so up in arms about all this. Look, they had 20 years to figure it out, now, when the money and assistance walks away, are they pointing back and saying that we've done nothing and abandoned them. Look, in a country that essentially operated like a bunch of Sith Warlords, even in the 'legitimate' part that was set up, if you don't appease every corner all the time, they turn and cut you behind your back to seize power at the next level. That's the way that it was before 9/11 and that's how it'll be now. Mostly because the country is so isolated economically from the world that all leadership is based from the ground up. So if my corner doesn't like what the leadership at the top says, I reject it, then get a whole bunch of people to side with me and reject it, and then I claim my own leadership status until I'm deposed by someone else, and rinse and repeat forever. So after 20 years of trying to make inroads in that culture, and largely getting undercut by the Taliban and their foreign supporters we leave, and we leave the rest of them to the country that they wanted all along. The Taliban are more brutal and not afraid of using force to keep everyone in line, and while that's not terribly enlightened it's got to give Jon a huge boner. The country has the leaders and government that they always wanted, because if they wanted something else, someone else, or a legit group would have garnered enough support to make it happen with the billions that have flowed into the country.

We didn't do that though. Most of the money spent went back here to military contractors. The rest was incompetently spent by our own government.

The only goal in the war was enrich certain businesses and maybe get some good PR for a President and Generals.

South Korea is more of the example we should have worked with if the true goal was nation building.

Last edited by RainMaker : 08-19-2021 at 12:29 PM.
RainMaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 12:47 PM   #3028
Vegas Vic
Checkraising Tourists
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cocoa Beach, FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker View Post
It's a factual statement. The Taliban did not commit 9/11. I know it's against the 20 years of propaganda spewed but it's the truth.

The Taliban is a horrendous, backward ass piece of shit group. But they didn't commit 9/11 and we never really went after the people that helped facilitate it (because they sell us a lot of oil or have scary weapons).

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. While the Taliban did not overtly support Al Qaeda prior to the 9/11 attacks, they were complicit with allowing numerous Al Qaeda terrorist training camps to flourish within their borders.

Al Qaeda ideologue Atiyya Allah al-Libi informed his associates that the Taliban’s public stance toward the group was to deny association to manage international pressures, and that Al Qaeda’s top leadership was comfortable with this position. Al-Libi wrote: “Of course, the Taliban’s policy is to avoid being seen with us or revealing any cooperation or agreement between us and them. That is for the purpose of averting international and regional pressure and out of consideration for regional dynamics. We defer to them in this regard.”

Last edited by Vegas Vic : 08-19-2021 at 01:13 PM.
Vegas Vic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 02:45 PM   #3029
miami_fan
Coordinator
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Land O Lakes FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMaker View Post
South Korea is more of the example we should have worked with if the true goal was nation building.

It is amazing to me how rarely South Korea is brought up in cases like this.
__________________
"The blind soldier fought for me in this war. The least I can do now is fight for him. I have eyes. He hasn’t. I have a voice on the radio, he hasn’t. I was born a white man. And until a colored man is a full citizen, like me, I haven’t the leisure to enjoy the freedom that colored man risked his life to maintain for me. I don’t own what I have until he owns an equal share of it. Until somebody beats me and blinds me, I am in his debt."- Orson Welles August 11, 1946
miami_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 03:16 PM   #3030
albionmoonlight
Head Coach
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: North Carolina


Kind of amazing that as bad as the pullout was, Trump has to come in to remind us "Hey, I would have done it a lot worse. I (apparently) would have left our soldiers there without any equipment or bases or civilian support. Also, the Generals I left in charge after four years as C-I-C suck because I am really bad at personnel."

Like, for 5 minutes there were some people who were thinking "Man, this has gone horribly. I can't imagine even Trump would have done it worse." And that was like the Bat signal to his stupid or something.
albionmoonlight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 03:44 PM   #3031
PilotMan
Head Coach
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seven miles up
Raise your hand if you thought that turnip would follow past presidential courtesy and keep quiet and on the sidelines for the betterment of the country and allow the new leadership to effectively govern without someone else distracting or otherwise commenting on every single thing?



Yeah...didn't think so either.
__________________
He's just like if Snow White was competitive, horny, and capable of beating the shit out of anyone that called her Pops.

Like Steam?
Join the FOFC Steam group here: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/FOFConSteam



PilotMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 04:33 PM   #3032
RainMaker
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Quote:
Originally Posted by miami_fan View Post
Afghan President Ashraf Ghani reportedly fled Kabul with $169 million in cash

Yes, the source is the Russian Embassy. Yes, the Afghan president says it is not true. No, I am not letting any of those things get in the way of the story as reported.

These stories are almost always bullshit.
RainMaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 09:57 PM   #3033
Atocep
Coordinator
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Puyallup, WA
So many things in that statement. Above all else I'm struggling to get over the fact that our former President posted in an official statement that "you bomb the bases into smithereens".
Atocep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 10:51 PM   #3034
Lathum
Favored Bitch #1
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: homeless in NJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atocep View Post
So many things in that statement. Above all else I'm struggling to get over the fact that our former President posted in an official statement that "you bomb the bases into smithereens".

I love how his strategy is to remove all the Americans and equipment and state they wouldn't know we left. Like they wouldn't wake up one morning and be like, fuck, all the tanks and shit are gone....
Lathum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2021, 11:57 PM   #3035
Atocep
Coordinator
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Puyallup, WA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lathum View Post
I love how his strategy is to remove all the Americans and equipment and state they wouldn't know we left. Like they wouldn't wake up one morning and be like, fuck, all the tanks and shit are gone....

Not to mention the fact that I'm sure no one would notice the bases being blown to "smithereens".

The plan is up there with nuke a hurricane.
Atocep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2021, 08:00 AM   #3036
GrantDawg
World Champion Mis-speller
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Covington, Ga.
The facts doesn't matter. His lemmings eat up anything the Great Lord says.
GrantDawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2021, 04:28 PM   #3037
RainMaker
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
lol

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/20/polit...ina/index.html
RainMaker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2021, 06:26 AM   #3038
Edward64
Head Coach
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Not a good couple weeks for Biden. Much of the criticism is deserved IMO for this FUBAR. I think we'll be in Afghanistan (airport) for the next several weeks so there'll be weeks more of pics, dire stories etc.

There was a news blurb about US not able to get to citizens (not already at the airport). I don't see how our troops can go out of the airport and pick up folks so best for them to shelter in place. Biden's options are understandably limited here.

Another article said he did not speak to any other world leaders (aka Boris) for 48 hours after the fall. If true, this seems weird to me.

Blurb on him saying AQ not in Afghanistan but then contradicted by DefSec. I think this one is defensible, he wasn't precise with his words but what he said is generally true.

Another on ABC covering up Biden confusing Beau Navy vs Army. Confusion about Beau's service is not reassuring. And of course, Hunter and his latest video he took of himself chatting with prostitute.

Biden has taken some body blows and at least one headshot. He's not counterpunching very well right now.

Last edited by Edward64 : 08-21-2021 at 06:27 AM.
Edward64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2021, 06:59 AM   #3039
Edward64
Head Coach
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
I've not read about Pelosi wanting Senate to pass both the $1.2T Infrastructure and the $3T Families bill before proceeding. I rather just do the $1.2T first and then worry about the $3T but can appreciate her games(wo)manship.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/20/hous...mic-plans.html
Quote:
The House of Representatives will return to Washington next week, setting up the latest test for President Joe Biden’s sprawling economic agenda.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., plans to hold a procedural vote as soon as Monday to move forward with a handful of Democratic priorities: the $1 trillion bipartisan infrastructure legislation passed by the Senate, the $3.5 trillion Democratic plan to expand the social safety net, and a voting rights bill.

She then aims to join the Senate in passing a budget resolution, the first step toward Democrats approving their massive spending plan without a Republican vote.

The spending plan is not expected to get through the Senate for weeks or even months, which would put off the final passage of the infrastructure bill, if all goes according to Pelosi’s plans.

In an effort to keep progressives on board with the smaller infrastructure plan and centrists in line with trillions more in new spending, Pelosi has said she will not take up either economic plan until the Senate passes both of them. Opposition from within her caucus has threatened to derail the speaker’s plans, leaving Democrats looking for a path forward as they return to the Capitol.
Edward64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2021, 07:30 AM   #3040
Flasch186
Coordinator
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Jacksonville, FL
It’s good to see cnn hammering Biden too if not just to show me that they weren’t just anti trump to be anti trump

Don’t make a difference in our current country but good for me anyways


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale

Putting a New Spin on Real Estate!



-----------------------------------------------------------

Commissioner of the USFL
USFL
Flasch186 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2021, 11:09 AM   #3041
Brian Swartz
Grizzled Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2006
I think that's a mistake by Pelosi, who I think in general has been making more and more of those from a tactical/strategic standpoint in recent years. Risks losing both of them with how much more opposition there is to the larger package.
Brian Swartz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2021, 12:54 PM   #3042
JPhillips
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
The duel track has always been a part of this. The left don't trust that the moderates will vote on the second bill, and the moderates won't start with the bigger bill. Neither bill will pass by itself.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers
JPhillips is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2021, 01:44 PM   #3043
Brian Swartz
Grizzled Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2006
That's unfortunate. The reporting I'd seen was indicating that the first bill was a sure thing at this point and the only question was on the second one. Seems to me a good recipe for getting nothing passed.
Brian Swartz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2021, 01:46 PM   #3044
JPhillips
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
Progressives won't vote for the first bill if it's by itself. That's always been the case. Even Manchin understands this is the only way.

Now I could see the reconciliation bill total coming down a bit, but it has to pass with or before the bipartisan bill.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers
JPhillips is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2021, 01:52 PM   #3045
Vegas Vic
Checkraising Tourists
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cocoa Beach, FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flasch186 View Post
It’s good to see cnn hammering Biden too if not just to show me that they weren’t just anti trump to be anti trump

I've been following this closely, and I think that General Austin Miller is going to be the sacrificial lamb in this ordeal. He has a perfect service record and did the best he could with the hand he was dealt over there. He sent several reports up through command on how the Afghan army could not hold.

Secretary of State Lloyd Austin and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley should be the ones to take the fall for this, but they're going to throw Miller under the bus. Biden doesn't want to lose any cabinet members so soon for incompetence.
Vegas Vic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2021, 02:00 PM   #3046
Brian Swartz
Grizzled Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2006
Does he though? Maybe you've got sources that I don't, or reporting I haven't seen, or statements that I can't find.

Everything I've seen for a long time, and a week ago Manchin said something quite similar, goes the other direction. He said he doesn't understand why the House is holding the first bill hostage, said that the bills should be voted up or down separately on their own merits, that he doesn't support the larger bill in it's current form ...

I mean we can always say he's grandstanding, I just don't see how there isn't a huge risk that he means what he's saying - and he's far from the only vote in question here - and that we don't end up in a situation where either the larger bill gets a hatchet taken to it in which case progressives won't approve it, or moderates like Manchin just say no and then neither one passes. What info is out there that I haven't seen?
Brian Swartz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2021, 02:14 PM   #3047
JPhillips
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
Quote:
Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) said on Tuesday that he's supportive of going forward with a larger, Democratic-only infrastructure bill but that it shouldn't be linked to a separate bipartisan framework.

Manchin, during an interview with MSNBC, said that he had been assuming since "day one" that Democrats would have to use reconciliation, a budget process that allows them to bypass a 60-vote legislative filibuster, to pass a larger infrastructure bill because Republicans don't want to make changes to the 2017 tax bill.

“We're going to have to work it through reconciliation, which I’ve agreed that that can be done. I just haven’t agreed on the amount, because I haven’t seen everything that everyone is wanting to put in the bill," Manchin said on MSNBC.

Manchin knows the landscape and while he may bring down the total a bit, he's already shown that when it matters, when he has to vote, he's for proceeding.

I don't think they should be linked and I'll not vote for reconciliation are two very different positions.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers
JPhillips is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2021, 03:32 PM   #3048
Edward64
Head Coach
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Swartz View Post
Does he though? Maybe you've got sources that I don't, or reporting I haven't seen, or statements that I can't find.

Everything I've seen for a long time, and a week ago Manchin said something quite similar, goes the other direction. He said he doesn't understand why the House is holding the first bill hostage, said that the bills should be voted up or down separately on their own merits, that he doesn't support the larger bill in it's current form ...

I mean we can always say he's grandstanding, I just don't see how there isn't a huge risk that he means what he's saying - and he's far from the only vote in question here - and that we don't end up in a situation where either the larger bill gets a hatchet taken to it in which case progressives won't approve it, or moderates like Manchin just say no and then neither one passes. What info is out there that I haven't seen?

Biden did back away from a veto threat back in Jun after the bipartisanship infrastructure was approved. An argument can be made that he always expected/hinted this but agree with you I didn't read it in the news (or at least it wasn't widespread in the MSM that I read) since then.

My guess is the $3.5T will come down some but overall, it delays the $1.2T and brings in a lot of unknowns.

Biden walks back veto threat on infrastructure amid GOP pushback
Quote:
President Joe Biden on Saturday walked back a threat to veto his bipartisan infrastructure deal amid intense pushback from Republicans that jeopardized the fragile agreement just one day after it was reached.

In a prepared statement, Biden said he "understandably upset some Republicans" when he said Thursday he would only sign the $1.2 trillion infrastructure deal into law if Congress also passes a multitrillion-dollar package focused on "human infrastructure" outlined in his American Families Plan and supported by only Democrats.

"My comments also created the impression that I was issuing a veto threat on the very plan I had just agreed to, which was certainly not my intent," Biden said.
Edward64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2021, 05:07 PM   #3049
miami_fan
Coordinator
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Land O Lakes FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas Vic View Post
I've been following this closely, and I think that General Austin Miller is going to be the sacrificial lamb in this ordeal. He has a perfect service record and did the best he could with the hand he was dealt over there. He sent several reports up through command on how the Afghan army could not hold.

Secretary of State Lloyd Austin and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley should be the ones to take the fall for this, but they're going to throw Miller under the bus. Biden doesn't want to lose any cabinet members so soon for incompetence.

I am curious why you think Gen. Miller would be sacrificed. I took a quick look and he is scheduled to retire after 38 years. I think this would have been his last assignment no matter what so I don't think it is a forced retirement in any way.
__________________
"The blind soldier fought for me in this war. The least I can do now is fight for him. I have eyes. He hasn’t. I have a voice on the radio, he hasn’t. I was born a white man. And until a colored man is a full citizen, like me, I haven’t the leisure to enjoy the freedom that colored man risked his life to maintain for me. I don’t own what I have until he owns an equal share of it. Until somebody beats me and blinds me, I am in his debt."- Orson Welles August 11, 1946
miami_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2021, 07:16 PM   #3050
BYU 14
Coordinator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The scorched Desert
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas Vic View Post
I've been following this closely, and I think that General Austin Miller is going to be the sacrificial lamb in this ordeal. He has a perfect service record and did the best he could with the hand he was dealt over there. He sent several reports up through command on how the Afghan army could not hold.

Secretary of State Lloyd Austin and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley should be the ones to take the fall for this, but they're going to throw Miller under the bus. Biden doesn't want to lose any cabinet members so soon for incompetence.

Agree 100% and I hope they don't try and scapegoat a man about to retire, whose service to this country has been impeccable. There is plenty of blame to go around, but I can't see much room for any of it to fall on his shoulders.
BYU 14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 7 (0 members and 7 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:03 PM.



Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.