Werewolf XCVIII - 24 Day Game Over - Post 2899

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Danny

Sometimes pressing people reveals information. After that episode with you I felt it unlikely you were a wolf and became suspicious of Thomkal for his quick move onto you after my analysis which helped set the second lynch candidate early. I said I wanted to vote Thomkal when I got back later though it was too late for that movement. Then after the CR stuff I was sure he was a wolf.

If I hadn't pressed you so hard, it's possible I put my vote somewhere else before I leave and never come back on. I then never get PB's PM and the push for Chief never happens, he doesn't die, who knows what happens with Telle and whether Henry learns that information, ad we lose the game! So really, you being under fire set in motion the chain of events which won the villagers the game!

Have to tell you we were crushed, especially me, when we didnt get the convert on you at that point-I'm sure you could have argued beautifully for us how all those people on your list were really wolves, and taken the attention away from me too. Alas such dreams....

[EagleFan]

Danny is quite the dangerous player, no matter which side he is on. I should have let him post for me for a while, I bet he could have talked everyone into lynching DT.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

major props to brian for using his power to cut the time of my interrogation-recharging in half after i used it on him no less.

i was only able to use it every 72 hours...that seemed like a long time as the pace of the game started to pick up, so it was great to get it back in time to use it on jackal and thus catch autumn

I spent the whole game confused as to who to use my power on. I didn't know who to trust, or what powers people had. My first PM to DT included a code word to be used to indicate who I should use the power on. I never saw the code word used. Toward the end of the game I finally thought about using it on Jack. That should have been obvious much sooner than it was.

[kingfc22]

Oh yea...sorry for locking up the seer for 16 hrs. Oops

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by saldana

ftr, i have now been right about you 3 times in a row.

for my part, i owe the village an apology for not being able to give this game nearly the attention it deserved...last week at work was brutal for me and i didnt have the time during the day to keep up.

i tried to be more active this week, but by the time i had the time to dive in, we were already in fish-in-a-barrel mode and i wasnt really much of anything but the cheerleader for the plan.

that said, i didnt really feel like i was needed...my role never came into play (i could change the vote of a CTU agent or Computer Analyst every 24 hours) because there were never any close votes or reveals of character names for me to even know who to adjust.

DT was the bus driver and for most of the week, i just felt like i was along for the ride (not saying you were pushy, just that you were the one with all the info, so the logical thing to do was to take cues from you)

I think the Jack role might have been a little bit too powerful because of the open PM thing..if we had the open PM ability but didnt know who Jack was right away and that he was 100% a good guy, it would have made the role less of a "god position"

overall, i think it was a fun game...the variable deadline was a little bit annoying, since I always try to be on at the lynch...i dont think i made one the entire game.

thanks hoops and BK, even if hoops didnt keep his promise to me.

sorry you didn't get to use your power dude. seemed like most of the ctu agents and computer people were bad-guys. guess it's good we didn't use your power willy-nilly to change votes and give the wolves more kills

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I spent the whole game confused as to who to use my power on. I didn't know who to trust, or what powers people had. My first PM to DT included a code word to be used to indicate who I should use the power on. I never saw the code word used. Toward the end of the game I finally thought about using it on Jack. That should have been obvious much sooner than it was.

believe me, i had you and the code-word in mind, but aside from myself i couldn't think of anyone whose power would necessarily benefit from it once you could use it (once you were done being interrogated). i guess schmidty would have been one if we used his PM power to figure the wolves out once PM's went dark. I thought about using it on myself to recharge after interrogating you...but didn't necessarily have another clear target at that point so was holding onto it.

good call by you on using it then though.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by saldana

ftr, i have now been right about you 3 times in a row.

You thought I was a wolf for at least two days, didn't you?

[ntndeacon]

I was surprised that no one mentioned that a kill when Idid it on a sure to be killed wolf would be a sure entry into a Cot that either a villager or a wolf could do. I was sure a wolf would mnention that at some point.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Oh yea...sorry for looking up the seer for 16 hrs. Oops

no worries. the fact that he returned alive was good and cleared you much more. i wonder if it contributed to his quick jumping on pass though (he might have thought you were evil and so wanted to get the info out there), where if he hadn't been locked-up he could have slow-played it and not needed the fake-reveal and i would have backed him and he might have lived. not that it mattered in the endgame though.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

I was surprised that no one mentioned that a kill when Idid it on a sure to be killed wolf would be a sure entry into a Cot that either a villager or a wolf could do. I was sure a wolf would mnention that at some point.

you'd think so.

for the record i still had you (and PB) on my "look at first in the event we exhuast henry's list" sub-category. i thought there was a chance that could be the case, but that it was probably a longer-shot than you being good.

[JAG]

First, very fun game even if I didn't last long. Just following it was a good time.

DT, I think overall you did a great job in a tough position. One thing I had to wonder that I didn't think about until day 2 (when I was dead) was why you leaned towards lynching KWhit when it would've been a fairly easy matter to see if he was lying by coordinating sending / receiving a PM during his 15 minute wiretap. If he didn't send you the communication you sent / received, you'd know he was faking and was probably a wolf. If he did send it to you, chances are he wouldn't have intercepted another PM during that time unless he was lucky, but you could at least verify he was telling the truth and was a likely villager. But overall you did a good job of letting out enough information without compromising people.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JAG

First, very fun game even if I didn't last long. Just following it was a good time.

DT, I think overall you did a great job in a tough position. One thing I had to wonder that I didn't think about until day 2 (when I was dead) was why you leaned towards lynching KWhit when it would've been a fairly easy matter to see if he was lying by coordinating sending / receiving a PM during his 15 minute wiretap. If he didn't send you the communication you sent / received, you'd know he was faking and was probably a wolf. If he did send it to you, chances are he wouldn't have intercepted another PM during that time unless he was lucky, but you could at least verify he was telling the truth and was a likely villager. But overall you did a good job of letting out enough information without compromising people.

zoinks. i never even thought of that (or of having schmidty intercept PM's to pickup on the wolf-chatter once PM's were shutdown). I'm surprised those players didn't think of it also and suggest it, or in schmidty's case just do it on their own.

I think with KWhit though we also might have run into the problem that that could have easily been a wolf-power also though (to try to find seer/duke/bg). But it would have been an idea...yeah.

[JAG]

dola

Thomkal, that's pretty funny about thinking I was signaling you guys with the Kim Bauer line. I was amused when she came up wolf after those remarks.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

I was surprised that no one mentioned that a kill when Idid it on a sure to be killed wolf would be a sure entry into a Cot that either a villager or a wolf could do. I was sure a wolf would mnention that at some point.

Well one thing was we were looking to you as a great convert possibility after that, so we didn't want to undermine that.

I think at that point we had to be careful not to argue too much against mostly-trusted people since we were all the ones suspect. I could have made that case, but no one was going to go after you before they went after the non-trusted list. Especially because I thought once Chief was dead DT would be gunning for me and my fake power.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I think with KWhit though we also might have run into the problem that that could have easily been a wolf-power also though (to try to find seer/duke/bg). But it would have been an idea...yeah.

But if he used it when you asked, you could've set up the time when the power was used so you would've had time to make sure people weren't sending you things. I don't know that it would've ended up being useful as far as catching other PMs, but it would've gone some way towards pushing him down the suspicion ladder at least..

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JAG

But if he used it when you asked, you could've set up the time when the power was used so you would've had time to make sure people weren't sending you things. I don't know that it would've ended up being useful as far as catching other PMs, but it would've gone some way towards pushing him down the suspicion ladder at least..

i mean that we couldn't rule out that it'd be a power a wolf would have somehow, and he'd just use it to try to buy trust instead of faking it. we still didn't have a grasp on the extent or type of the wolves' powers then

but yeah, it would have pushed him down. though schmidty prolly woulda been pushed up then, so it's a wash.

[DaddyTorgo]

hey nfg - we won!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i mean that we couldn't rule out that it'd be a power a wolf would have somehow, and he'd just use it to try to buy trust instead of faking it. we still didn't have a grasp on the extent or type of the wolves' powers then

but yeah, it would have pushed him down. though schmidty prolly woulda been pushed up then, so it's a wash.

Then again without him being lynched, ntn might've gotten the axe that day.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I think EF was just trying to save our hide, DT. He volunteered to get pressure off of us and it worked beautifully at times.

When Pass got outed, it's true, we were all virtually high-fiving, as we had been about to lose Thomkal or me. Once Thomkal had used up his kills I then pushed him for the lynch to try to hold out as long as we could. We knew wee were done though as soon as Henry's list was published. We wanted to save face.

Yeah, I used my power twice, but the first time it was insequential, and the second time I think the mods forgot to do it.

[Schmidty]

By the way, thanks for a really fun game hoops and BK!!!

[DaddyTorgo]

aah - goodstuff Schmidty!

yeah...thanks hoops + bk for a fun game!!!

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm surprised i lived until the end of the game. especially after the BG got killed.

did you wolves think i couldn't be killed, or that it would take too long, or what?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

did you wolves think i couldn't be killed, or that it would take too long, or what?

Basically the first. We thought you were unkillable. Though Thomkal thought maybe with one or two more attacks we could take you down. Should have listened to him earlier .

Btw, I PMed DT as being James Heller, Alan.

[path12]

Was there ever confirmation about the consequences of Jack being killed?

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i'm surprised i lived until the end of the game. especially after the BG got killed.

did you wolves think i couldn't be killed, or that it would take too long, or what?

We started the game assuming you probably couldn't be killed, and not wnating to waste an attempt on you. We then took a shot with EF's extra kill, thinking at that point we had the game fairly well in hand and could afford it --it seemed also possible that you were killable and the mods figured we'd guess you weren't and not try.

When I saw you were wounded I guessed that it probably took some number of attempts to off you. At that point however we needed every kill to count, and we didn't know if htat number would have been two or three. I think if the things with CR hadn't gone down we would have taken another shot at you.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Basically the first. We thought you were unkillable. Though Thomkal thought maybe with one or two more attacks we could take you down. Should have listened to him earlier .

Btw, I PMed DT as being James Heller, Alan.

aaah - that's awesome

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i'm surprised i lived until the end of the game. especially after the BG got killed.

did you wolves think i couldn't be killed, or that it would take too long, or what?

I guess I should add that in the second half of hte game we were well aware that only a conversion would keep us in this. So, we were having to focus on that. And we assumed there was no chance you could be converted. I think if we had known about the conversion mechanic we would have kept trying to kill you.

[DaddyTorgo]

well selfishly i'm glad i lived

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Btw, I PMed DT as being James Heller, Alan.

I guess that I am glad that I made the decision to not mention James Heller once at all then to DT or Path. That was an interesting thing that BK and Hoops slid into my role that I don't think anyone else was aware of, but if I had mentioned him and told DT and Path about James Heller, it could have bought some trust for you when I died... I figured it was more risk than it was worth and didn't mention it once to anyone.

[hoopsguy]

There have been a few comments on the conversion, or lack thereof. Here was the moderator thought process on it:

1.) You already had a role that was about 50/50 to come join you guys without you taking any action whatsoever (EagleFan/Tony Almeida)
2.) You had a neutral role in the game who could communicate with you. We expected this role to play the middle, not pick one side, but given your ability to coordinate with that role you had another asset potentially (PurdueBrad/Sherry Palmer)
3.) If you didn't get the convert, you got a kill out of it. So it wasn't like it was a total loss.

24 players, starting ratio of 18-5-1 with EF coming over it was 17-6-1 in terms of voting.

This was a point we discussed an awful lot leading up to the game. The first twenty-four hours of the game, if everyone used their powers optimally and had good luck, could have led to something like 3-4 wolves being caught. Or it could play out like it did + hitting on Jackal with the wolves coming out of Day 1 with 7.5 wolves.

There is never that amount of variance in a WW game, so we tried to give the wolves a little extra juice in terms of numbers but didn't want to tip the balance too far. I'm not sure if we got the balance just right, but that was the intent in putting this element together.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

There have been a few comments on the conversion, or lack thereof. Here was the moderator thought process on it:

1.) You already had a role that was about 50/50 to come join you guys without you taking any action whatsoever (EagleFan/Tony Almeida)
2.) You had a neutral role in the game who could communicate with you. We expected this role to play the middle, not pick one side, but given your ability to coordinate with that role you had another asset potentially (PurdueBrad/Sherry Palmer)
3.) If you didn't get the convert, you got a kill out of it. So it wasn't like it was a total loss.

24 players, starting ratio of 18-5-1 with EF coming over it was 17-6-1 in terms of voting.

This was a point we discussed an awful lot leading up to the game. The first twenty-four hours of the game, if everyone used their powers optimally and had good luck, could have led to something like 3-4 wolves being caught. Or it could play out like it did + hitting on Jackal with the wolves coming out of Day 1 with 7.5 wolves.

There is never that amount of variance in a WW game, so we tried to give the wolves a little extra juice in terms of numbers but didn't want to tip the balance too far. I'm not sure if we got the balance just right, but that was the intent in putting this element together.

good to know.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

There have been a few comments on the conversion, or lack thereof. Here was the moderator thought process on it:

1.) You already had a role that was about 50/50 to come join you guys without you taking any action whatsoever (EagleFan/Tony Almeida)
2.) You had a neutral role in the game who could communicate with you. We expected this role to play the middle, not pick one side, but given your ability to coordinate with that role you had another asset potentially (PurdueBrad/Sherry Palmer)
3.) If you didn't get the convert, you got a kill out of it. So it wasn't like it was a total loss.

24 players, starting ratio of 18-5-1 with EF coming over it was 17-6-1 in terms of voting.

This was a point we discussed an awful lot leading up to the game. The first twenty-four hours of the game, if everyone used their powers optimally and had good luck, could have led to something like 3-4 wolves being caught. Or it could play out like it did + hitting on Jackal with the wolves coming out of Day 1 with 7.5 wolves.

There is never that amount of variance in a WW game, so we tried to give the wolves a little extra juice in terms of numbers but didn't want to tip the balance too far. I'm not sure if we got the balance just right, but that was the intent in putting this element together.

I think the conversion mechanic was fair, but we probably should have had more of a hint of how it would work. If we had a hint of that we might have just been using kills but trying to get someone to out themselves. Or probably better would be if we knew the name of who we were looking for, it would have given DT something to scan for.

But I agree that we had a lot in our favor, and having a lesser conversion mechanic was fair.

What was the formula for our night kills?

I'm not sure that the Sherry Palmer mechanic was really in our favor, regardless of how PB had played it. We couldn't really afford to trust a neutral like that, and could only communicate privately once without exposing ourselves.

Generally I think you guys got it all right with the rules other than that. For example, the Tony and Sherry roles worked just right - it was clera to me that Sherry couldn't necessarily been trusted, but eventually clear to me that EF was really on our side. I was afraid that EF had a role where he was a mole and could seem to be on our side but be ratting us out. That would have been out of whack, and I think what you did was just right.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

you'd think so.

for the record i still had you (and PB) on my "look at first in the event we exhuast henry's list" sub-category. i thought there was a chance that could be the case, but that it was probably a longer-shot than you being good.

Not to speak for the the real wolves (I was a half wolf I guess you could say) but I believe the thought was that you were so set on only voting the list that any attempt to discredit someone not on that list was just going to look suspicious.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Not to speak for the the real wolves (I was a half wolf I guess you could say) but I believe the thought was that you were so set on only voting the list that any attempt to discredit someone not on that list was just going to look suspicious.

which in the end of course was the right way to go.

[hoopsguy]

The formula for the wolf kill was 2/3 of available villager actions to trigger a kill. Not all actions were considered "available" - something that was a passive like Danny's didn't count for that formula. But Tony going undercover, Suvarov scanning, Michelle + Audrey intercepting PMs were all available actions.

In the event that villagers weren't getting enough actions in (which was the case more often than not) there was a 28 hour maximum time between wolf kills. This was toggled down to 23 hours later in the game as the total number of villager actions shrank.

I believe there was one instance in the game where the wolf kill was triggered by total villager actions. Every other time it was the "max hours" threshold that provided the wolf kill.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

There have been a few comments on the conversion, or lack thereof. Here was the moderator thought process on it:

1.) You already had a role that was about 50/50 to come join you guys without you taking any action whatsoever (EagleFan/Tony Almeida)
2.) You had a neutral role in the game who could communicate with you. We expected this role to play the middle, not pick one side, but given your ability to coordinate with that role you had another asset potentially (PurdueBrad/Sherry Palmer)
3.) If you didn't get the convert, you got a kill out of it. So it wasn't like it was a total loss.

24 players, starting ratio of 18-5-1 with EF coming over it was 17-6-1 in terms of voting.

This was a point we discussed an awful lot leading up to the game. The first twenty-four hours of the game, if everyone used their powers optimally and had good luck, could have led to something like 3-4 wolves being caught. Or it could play out like it did + hitting on Jackal with the wolves coming out of Day 1 with 7.5 wolves.

There is never that amount of variance in a WW game, so we tried to give the wolves a little extra juice in terms of numbers but didn't want to tip the balance too far. I'm not sure if we got the balance just right, but that was the intent in putting this element together.

Understand where you are coming from on this, but the point is we spent so much time talking about conversions because we thought it was more open-ended. If we had known there was a cultist out there looking for us or a small group of people that could be converted, or just that the power was limited in some way, our mindset would have changed and like Autumn said I think we would have gone after DT sooner. As it was, we had to take a shot in the dark to get the one person we could get. We had to rely on that person signalling us when they didn't even know for sure they could be converted even if they wanted to be. We were very lucky EagleFan chose our side. If we had scanned Jackal, would we have been told he was a potential convert?

Don't mean to be coming on strong here, just was frustrated I could never get my power to work when I had three attempts at it and finding out my chances were very small.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

The formula for the wolf kill was 2/3 of available villager actions to trigger a kill. Not all actions were considered "available" - something that was a passive like Danny's didn't count for that formula. But Tony going undercover, Suvarov scanning, Michelle + Audrey intercepting PMs were all available actions.

In the event that villagers weren't getting enough actions in (which was the case more often than not) there was a 28 hour maximum time between wolf kills. This was toggled down to 23 hours later in the game as the total number of villager actions shrank.

I believe there was one instance in the game where the wolf kill was triggered by total villager actions. Every other time it was the "max hours" threshold that provided the wolf kill.

That seems well balanced, thanks. I was worried there was no max time, and that the number was absolute, not a proportion. You guys did an amazing job with the rules here.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Understand where you are coming from on this, but the point is we spent so much time talking about conversions because we thought it was more open-ended. If we had known there was a cultist out there looking for us or a small group of people that could be converted, or just that the power was limited in some way, our mindset would have changed and like Autumn said I think we would have gone after DT sooner. As it was, we had to take a shot in the dark to get the one person we could get. We had to rely on that person signalling us when they didn't even know for sure they could be converted even if they wanted to be. We were very lucky EagleFan chose our side. If we had scanned Jackal, would we have been told he was a potential convert?

Don't mean to be coming on strong here, just was frustrated I could never get my power to work when I had three attempts at it and finding out my chances were very small.

No offense taken - just wanted to provide you feedback on our design decisions.

The interesting part here, and the one that I think is tough for a moderator, is when to help the player out with a course correction. While trying to stay "neutral" and let the players decide the game, rather than trying to create/enforce our vision for the game.

We saw the PMs that you were sending between each other and knew that this was factoring into your kill criteria. So, should we have given you a gentle nudge to deter you from focusing on this too hard? I'm almost sure we would have done that if you didn't get a kill with the "failed conversion".

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

No offense taken - just wanted to provide you feedback on our design decisions.

The interesting part here, and the one that I think is tough for a moderator, is when to help the player out with a course correction. While trying to stay "neutral" and let the players decide the game, rather than trying to create/enforce our vision for the game.

We saw the PMs that you were sending between each other and knew that this was factoring into your kill criteria. So, should we have given you a gentle nudge to deter you from focusing on this too hard? I'm almost sure we would have done that if you didn't get a kill with the "failed conversion".

I think it's probably better to stay neutral. There's too many ways people can go off the wrong way in WW, and that's part of the game. I think in this case I'd suggest you do the writeup differently in the future or something, but I think it would be dicey to say anything to us. Particularly since you're privy to the wolves' thinking, but don't know what individual villagers are thinking and they may be making mistakes as well.

[Autumn]

And DT, I need you to get back to me about our trade in GAH

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

No offense taken - just wanted to provide you feedback on our design decisions.

The interesting part here, and the one that I think is tough for a moderator, is when to help the player out with a course correction. While trying to stay "neutral" and let the players decide the game, rather than trying to create/enforce our vision for the game.

We saw the PMs that you were sending between each other and knew that this was factoring into your kill criteria. So, should we have given you a gentle nudge to deter you from focusing on this too hard? I'm almost sure we would have done that if you didn't get a kill with the "failed conversion".

never being a mod, its hard for me to answer that question. But when a major part of our strategy discussion revolved around a faulty-through no fault of our own-understanding of the conversion power, perhaps a slight nudge should have been given. If we had the info right there in front us about the conversions and then proceeded to concentrate on it that much, then no a nudge wouldn't have been the right thing. I know it has to be a tough decision to do things like that though like when you gave us the convert/EF kill together when you messed up with Chief Rum's death.

Maybe having Chief Rum's scan power tell us whether a person was a good conversion attempt or not would have been enough?

[saldana]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

You thought I was a wolf for at least two days, didn't you?

yeah, and almost went after you again on the 3rd except DT had you higher on his list than some of the other people getting heat that day.

[Poli]

I really wish I had had the time to play this one...but when I'd log in to post my beeps and saw 6-7 pages of 50 posts each between logins, I would breathe a sigh of relief that I wasn't involved.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

never being a mod, its hard for me to answer that question. But when a major part of our strategy discussion revolved around a faulty-through no fault of our own-understanding of the conversion power, perhaps a slight nudge should have been given. If we had the info right there in front us about the conversions and then proceeded to concentrate on it that much, then no a nudge wouldn't have been the right thing. I know it has to be a tough decision to do things like that though like when you gave us the convert/EF kill together when you messed up with Chief Rum's death.

Maybe having Chief Rum's scan power tell us whether a person was a good conversion attempt or not would have been enough?

I would think the real solution would have been something in the initial PM that made reference to this. I agree that it is dicey when saying something as a mod during a game as an accidental statement there could go a long way towards disaster (unless something is going so horribly wrong with the game that it needs corrected).

[EagleFan]

dola: Not sure where real came from in that first sentence, should read possibly best. Trying to do a couple things at once. Hopefully I didn;t just email my boss WW thoughts.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Autumn

And DT, I need you to get back to me about our trade in GAH

responded. will take a look at it later when i get home and in front of my savegame.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

responded. will take a look at it later when i get home and in front of my savegame.

Accept the trade, I'm sure it's a good deal...

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

dola: Not sure where real came from in that first sentence, should read possibly best. Trying to do a couple things at once. Hopefully I didn;t just email my boss WW thoughts.

Might not be so bad -- he will probably be more likely to vote DT than anyone here was!

[EagleFan]

Oh, games over I can stop harrassing DT...

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

dola: Not sure where real came from in that first sentence, should read possibly best. Trying to do a couple things at once. Hopefully I didn;t just email my boss WW thoughts.

i have that paranoia sometimes - it sucks