Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

I think they should do away with the "membership" format and just book two world titles (or even just the singles world title), and try to run indy "supershows".

Problem is, that's a money losing proposition. Most member promotions can't even break even booking more than one non-local (to them) talent, they simply aren't worth enough butts in seats to make up for the cost + travel.

The IWC (of which I'm definitely prone to thinking like in terms of what I personally would like to see) suffers too often from the mistaken impression that quality sells. It doesn't sell nearly as well as familiarity, even if what's familiar isn't something that me/you/the IWC would go in their backyard to watch for free. That's a conversation I've had with more than one promoter over the last 10-15 years, most were very candid with me about why they don't book certain top indy names. A few were downright blunt: they don't sell tickets for squat except in their own home area.

Hell, look at the AmDrag video, see how small that crowd was (and they only drew that many because the matches were part of a legends weekend). ROH can pull it off, PWG has done some pretty good crowds for supershows, a couple of others do okay. The vast majority draw crowds of less than 100, a solid night for a one of the longest running & successful indies (NWA Anarchy nee Wildside) is 200-300, and adding anyone we've talked about in this thread is worth maybe an extra 25 tickets, 50 if you had enough money to pour into significant promotion. $500 extra dollars doesn't cover the cost of Bryan Danielson or Charlie Haas.

In reality the IWC is a lot smaller and a lot more scattered around than we sometimes get fooled into believing it is, and the majority of people buying indy tickets in most parts of the country have a very narrow view of what they find interesting. What works in the NE doesn't work well in the old Mid-South territory, what works in Texas can't draw flies in Georgia, and what works in Cali would get crapped on in the Midwest.

Also, to HiFi's point about "link to each individual promotions site", more than one incarnation of the NWA national website tried to do that numerous times over the years. Most indy promotions can't even consistently maintain a website, you end up hurting the overall image as much as you help it. Plus there's a constant power struggle among promoters who are a pretty independent lot with bigger egos than wallets (not to mention brains).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

On a side note, NWA Anarchy is never going to run huge crowds because they're in Bumfuck, GA. Move them even a thirty minute drive closer to Atlanta and they're probably drawing more people.

Actually not, there's not much in the way of non-WWE wrestling fans around Atlanta. It's a front-runner town, that's just sort of the way it is. I've been to shows in the middle of nowhere, been to shows inside the perimeter, you'd be surprised at the percentage of smarks coming from the lesser populated boonies.
Most of the indy wrestling done close to the city that has drawn anything has been of the bar brawl variety, crowd there more for the beer than the wrestling.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Russo + Bischoff + Dreamer = WCW + AWA + ECW failures combined

At what point does daddy take Dixie Carter's toy away?

If he hasn't already, he doesn't seem likely to. They've been losing money from the get-go. Besides, if he keeps her over there then he doesn't have to deal with her fucking up his primary source of income.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Was WCW ever this screwed up?

WCW didn't have social networks to worry about like there are now.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Matthean

WCW didn't have social networks to worry about like there are now.

And that's a damn shame. Who knows what kind of craptacular "shootish" booking Vince Russo would have come up with if he had access to facebook and twitter.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

And that's a damn shame. Who knows what kind of craptacular "shootish" booking Vince Russo would have come up with if he had access to facebook and twitter.

And now he's got the reality show craze to influence him. Just what wrestling needs, a Jersey Shore knockoff (that's the latest rumor concerning the gimmick for inbound indy Rob Eckos, complete with Becky Bayless as his Snooky)

[albionmoonlight]

I guess everyone thinks that wrestling was best back when they first got into it. But reading this thread makes me long for the mid-80s. Americans were good. Soviets were bad. A lot of dudes wore masks. Everyone had a cartoonish character to play. And you didn't think about shoots and works and shootish works and workish shoots. You just knew that Jake was awesome because he had a snake and Rick Rude was horrible b/c he tried to hurt Jake's wife. That's as close, in my memory, as we got to a shoot-type angle--and it was totally made up.

Now, we have to focus on the Twitter wars of guys who are 3 stages passed washed up. Sigh. Back in my day . . .

[molson]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I guess everyone thinks that wrestling was best back when they first got into it. But reading this thread makes me long for the mid-80s. Americans were good. Soviets were bad. A lot of dudes wore masks. Everyone had a cartoonish character to play. And you didn't think about shoots and works and shootish works and workish shoots. You just knew that Jake was awesome because he had a snake and Rick Rude was horrible b/c he tried to hurt Jake's wife. That's as close, in my memory, as we got to a shoot-type angle--and it was totally made up.

Now, we have to focus on the Twitter wars of guys who are 3 stages passed washed up. Sigh. Back in my day . . .

The 80s were fun, and the mid 90s were pretty fun too. Part of the reason they were both fun was that they were SO different.

If you take wrestling from the 70s, 80s, then 90s, it's like three completely different products. I mean, just imagine taking a fan from 1987 and bringing him to a RAW show in 1997. It would blow his mind. But then everything stagnated. I don't know if there's anywhere else for wrestling to go, but they don't seem interested in trying.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I guess everyone thinks that wrestling was best back when they first got into it. But reading this thread makes me long for the mid-80s. Americans were good. Soviets were bad. A lot of dudes wore masks. Everyone had a cartoonish character to play. And you didn't think about shoots and works and shootish works and workish shoots. You just knew that Jake was awesome because he had a snake and Rick Rude was horrible b/c he tried to hurt Jake's wife. That's as close, in my memory, as we got to a shoot-type angle--and it was totally made up.

Now, we have to focus on the Twitter wars of guys who are 3 stages passed washed up. Sigh. Back in my day . . .

For years I would have agreed with you on this basic premise but now I'm not so sure, at least not for me.

I got into wrestling in the 70's, grew up with Gordon Solie, Georgia Championship Wrestling, and Mr. Wrestling II. And I could still watch that basic product today (with the exception of the heavy squash match ratio).
I enjoyed myself during the Monday Night Wars, or at least it's accurate to say that I could find things I liked during them even if much of the time was spent bitching about the absence of the elements I liked. I even had fun following the indy scene late 90's into the early 2000's. The one period in my lifetime I couldn't stand was the cartoon era.

At any rate, I'm not sure that I'd go back to the 70's as my most favorite era at this point. It was the best storytelling era by a wide margin IMO but not an era that I'd want to see completely recreated today if I were designing my "perfect" wrestling promotion meant only to entertain me, never mind any of the business aspects of such a promotion.

I'd like the 70's storytelling with the ECW era in-ring creativity with the ROH Pure Title workrate with a fair amount of Puroresu strong-style influence. Whatever that is, I don't believe that equates to wanting to go back to when I first started following it.

[Toddzilla]

There was a great discussion on Ron & Fez about this yersterday. Was wrestling really that much better when we were kids, or was it better *because* we were kids? It was different, no question, but better? I checked out WWE On Demand a while back and watched an episode of World Championship Wrestling on TBS from the mid to late 80s and it was bordering unwatchable. It may have been the episode where the Road Warriors turned on Dusty Rhodes and Animal jabbed the spike in Dusty's eye. That part was way cool, but the rest of the show was miserable. A 3-minute Kendall Windham squash? No thank you. Jimmy Garvin promo? Pass.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

There was a great discussion on Ron & Fez about this yersterday. Was wrestling really that much better when we were kids, or was it better *because* we were kids? It was different, no question, but better? I checked out WWE On Demand a while back and watched an episode of World Championship Wrestling on TBS from the mid to late 80s and it was bordering unwatchable. It may have been the episode where the Road Warriors turned on Dusty Rhodes and Animal jabbed the spike in Dusty's eye. That part was way cool, but the rest of the show was miserable. A 3-minute Kendall Windham squash? No thank you. Jimmy Garvin promo? Pass.

It is a valid point. The Attitude era was amazing but there were plenty of times both Raw and Nitro were fucking awful. The difference was Austin, Rock, nWo, etc. were all so hot that no one cared. There would be fun stuff on the shows but the actual wrestling was borderline garbage.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

There was a great discussion on Ron & Fez about this yersterday. Was wrestling really that much better when we were kids, or was it better *because* we were kids?

There's no question in my mind that there are some rose-colored glasses we put on when reminiscing about "the good ol' days" of wrestling. But there were definitely aspects that were better, such as the ability to tell a story without feeling the need to wrap it up in 3-4 weeks in order to head to the next PPV. They were also better, odd though it seems since kayfabe was in effect, at not treating the fans as complete idiots with 6 minute memories. One of the problems today IMO is that we're too often asked to suspend disbelief beyond a reasonable ability to do so. Multiple turns on a dime, character changes without an attempt to explain them, etc.

Over the weekend I watched an ROH clip from somewhere in 2008 I think, when bottom feeder Mitch Franklin became Grizzly Redwood. He comes out in a ridonkulous lumberjack outfit & tells how he headed up to the Yukon Territory, hung out with them, and discovered his true self or something like that. From the time he started talking to the time his match with Chasyn Rance ended, the crowd went from chanting to "Shut the Fuck Up" to "Let's Go Grizzly". As silly as the segment & concept was, as absurd as the character was, he came out & took ownership of it. He sold the story behind it as if he meant it (in spite of how stupid it was) and it seemed to give the fans permission to suspend disbelief & buy into the character themselves. That aspect of psychology -- even the idea that "psychology" has meaning in more ways than just the sequencing of moves and the ebb & flow of the match itself -- is something that we don't get enough of today & I think it's hurt the product overall.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

the ability to tell a story without feeling the need to wrap it up in 3-4 weeks in order to head to the next PPV. They were also better, odd though it seems since kayfabe was in effect, at not treating the fans as complete idiots with 6 minute memories. One of the problems today IMO is that we're too often asked to suspend disbelief beyond a reasonable ability to do so. Multiple turns on a dime, character changes without an attempt to explain them, etc.

bingo

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

They were also better, odd though it seems since kayfabe was in effect, at not treating the fans as complete idiots with 6 minute memories. One of the problems today IMO is that we're too often asked to suspend disbelief beyond a reasonable ability to do so.

Interesting. Maybe once you acknowledge that wrestling is scripted, the promotions feel free to fuck with the script more than they should. Because everyone knows that it is just a script anyway.

But, when you are still nominally asking fans to believe that it is "real," then you have to try to meet them half-way and give them something that they can realistically believe.

That makes sense.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

But, when you are still nominally asking fans to believe that it is "real," then you have to try to meet them half-way and give them something that they can realistically believe.

I think this is the very reason that everyone has such great memories of ECW. They got silly in some parts, but they went out and ran their 6-9-12 month storylines without shame. The mid to top-end characters sold themselves as well as any other era I've seen.

[molson]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Interesting. Maybe once you acknowledge that wrestling is scripted, the promotions feel free to fuck with the script more than they should. Because everyone knows that it is just a script anyway.

This was definitely Vince Russo's worst sin in the end days of WCW - to the point where we actually had announcers yelling that a wrestler was "going against the script" in making a worked-shoot promo.

It was completely stupid, and while nobody else was or is THAT bad at this, there's still elements of this everywhere. Nobody wants to go to a movie and see subplots dropped without explanation, or see the lead actor "break script" and REALLY mix things up with the bad guy. It's beyond dopey.

[DeToxRox]

I think a big reason ECW is so beloved is because there are tons of people who never saw it but have bought in to the hype. I went to about a dozen ECW shows and always had a blast. Yet people I know tell me they were at a ton of ECW shows too but I know for a fact none of them watched wrestling during that time period.

ECW was amazing, and I'll never forget being like 13 and staying up until 2 AM to watch it on WADL and then ordering all the PPV's and buying the tapes. I spent a ton of cash on ECW and never regretted it.

But I think Adam Ryland when making TEW came up with why ECW and The Attitude era were so great which is the Perfect Show theory. It basically means the best shows have a hot opening match/angle, then the show in the center is there to keep the crowd entertained but not burn them out. Then the last part of the show goes for the jugular.

If you watch old ECW tapes from 95-96, they were jam packed with action, and while amazing, you can sense people being burnt out on it. Dave Scherer has started posting his old Lariat Newsletters on PWI and he was at all those shows and he says there were times he was literally spent before the last hour of the show.

Then around 97 and on, you could sense that booking trend of starting hot, bringing it down a notch, and finishing scorching becoming the new trend in all three promotions.

Even in WCW when Nitro was three hours, the first hour was all the workrate guys, then it was squash city, then it was the big angles and main events.

In WWF, their Main Events always delivered but look at some of their undercards, it's terrible.

Wrestling now has become everyone trying to make every segment some huge event and it hurts the overall product.

I'd kill to see a squash match on every Raw. Nothing is more effective at building a new talent. Instead you sacrifice guys like Bourne and MVP to put over other guys.

I am all over the map but so be it.

/rant

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

I hope TNA does pare back from the 12-14 PPV per year schedule. Doing 6-8 with a couple of CotC type events could encourage them to draw out more storylines. None of that will matter though until the proven failures (Rizzo/Bischoff/Dreamer) are banished permanently from booking the promotion.

As you point out, until they have people in charge with the skill to do it, it probably wouldn't end well. I mean, can you imagine the short attention span crowd trying to write long storylines? They can't even be compelling with short ones, I shudder to think how they'd screw that up.

It shouldn't be hard to build a solid promotion around Styles, Joe, Daniels, MCMG, Angle, LAX, Beer Money, Wolfe, Morgan, Kong, Kim, TBP etc.

It shouldn't be in theory, but I fear that it might be tougher than we think, at least if "solid" equates to "significant national relevance". I mean, let's be honest, they weren't setting the woods on fire in terms of viewers or ticket sales when they had the most focus on the non-WWE/WCW talent either.
I don't like that reality, but it's true.

Plus, a chunk of the people you mention here are either gone already (Kong, Kim, Daniels) or might as well be (Homicide, who I believe has mentally left the bldg already).

I'll concede that there's a viable role for some of the old-timers, but few of them seem willing to play that part. I've found it interesting that one of the guys I would have suspected to be least open to that has been one of the more outspoken about it since his arrival. Angle has commented more than once, pretty bluntly, that the role for the older guys is to put the younger talent over & that none of them should be putting the older guys over. I believe Sting would also play that part willingly, maybe even the Dudleys to some extent but beyond that, they're pretty hard to find.

[molson]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

The squash match thing isn't bad. It doesn't even have to be a true squash. For the life of me I don't get why WWE/TNA don't bring in top Indy guys a little more often, and let them use their real gimmicks, to lose matches. TNA should use a team like the Young Bucks once every 6-8 weeks or so to put over an established team during the build up of an angle. If the enhancement talent starts to get over then give them a deal if you have room for them and add them to the mix.

The WWE used to do this on their B-shows. The indy guys didn't really get to showcase their gimmicks, but they got to use their indy ring names and the matches were fairly competitive - CM Punk and Samoa Joe made some of these appearances 5-6 years ago.

I agree that it's a perfect solution to the squash issue - have a mix of promising indy guys, washed up but entertaining old guys (like Iron Mike Sharpe in the 80s), and even cartoony entertaining jobbers with silly gimmicks. The presence of guys like that immediately elevates guys like Evan Bourne.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

It shouldn't be hard to build a solid promotion around Styles, Joe, Daniels, MCMG, Angle, LAX, Beer Money, Wolfe, Morgan, Kong, Kim, TBP etc. Aim to always be good and ride the wave every time you catch lightning in a bottle and get hot.

At the end of the day TNA, IMO, is not in a position where these guys can ever be household names. They do not have the resources necessary to make AJ Styles or Beer Money National stars. They need to be on a show viewed by several million, not just a million or so. TNA will always attract their core audience, and slowly build on it if they stay their course, but for TNA to ever truly make it, it'll take a guy like Randy Orton or Edge to leave WWE and sign with TNA.

I believe Jon may have said this before, but maybe not. Anyway, WWE has shown the ability to make stars when they want. Wade Barrett went from being an FCW Announcer to Main Eventing WWE's second biggest PPV in six months.

Michael Tarver, a guy who is easily one of the worst workers on either WWE or TNA's roster, has been turned into a bigger star then everyone in TNA who didn't at some point work for Vince.

TNA doesn't have that star making power so they need to get legit stars. Building their current roster is great, but until those guys can go over a guy who just WWE fans can look at and say "wow, who are these guys? they're pretty damn good", they'll be stuck where they are.

They have Jeff Hardy, which is a start, but the booking of him has been pretty terrible imo. Until they add an Orton, Edge, Jericho or Punk type, they will be where they are which is fine until Spike says "okay, we need some real improvement".

I don't know if that day ever comes since TNA is big for Spike, but you never know.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

I'd kill to see a squash match on every Raw. Nothing is more effective at building a new talent. Instead you sacrifice guys like Bourne and MVP to put over other guys.

That brings us to the bloated roster issue.

Check out the size of the rosters through the years at http://www.solie.org/

1986 WWE was in the 50's, primary NWA regulars was around 30
1992 WWE was in the 40's, WCW was 30-40
1995 Both were around 50
1998 WCW had 102, WCW was 70+, ECW was 35-40

Now I realize that the number of hours of programming increased & that meant bigger rosters but 102 guys? That's fucking ridiculous, but it was a product of the "sign everybody with a pulse so the other guys can't have them" mentality.

We still see the remnant of that today I think, even with smaller rosters. In the rush to try to find the next 12 big things, there's little room for true jobbers in the traditional sense. Effectively, MVP & Bourne are the jobbers, simply by virtue of them being the people you've decided are good to get some TV time but that you aren't ready/willing to push.

The skill set of the midcard-and-below guys is better today than it was in the 70's in many ways (although a number of the old guys knew how to sell a squash) so you end up with workers who have the ring skill to deserve a better fate but really few opportunities to be elevated because the people above them have their own set of positives.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by molson

The WWE used to do this on their B-shows. The indy guys didn't really get to showcase their gimmicks, but they got to use their indy ring names and the matches were fairly competitive - CM Punk and Samoa Joe made some of these appearances 5-6 years ago.

I agree that it's a perfect solution to the squash issue - have a mix of promising indy guys, washed up but entertaining old guys (like Iron Mike Sharpe in the 80s), and even cartoony entertaining jobbers with silly gimmicks. The presence of guys like that immediately elevates guys like Matt Bourne.

I don't know if I am ready for Doink to go over big.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That brings us to the bloated roster issue.

Check out the size of the rosters through the years at http://www.solie.org/

1986 WWE was in the 50's, primary NWA regulars was around 30
1992 WWE was in the 40's, WCW was 30-40
1995 Both were around 50
1998 WCW had 102, WCW was 70+, ECW was 35-40

Now I realize that the number of hours of programming increased & that meant bigger rosters but 102 guys? That's fucking ridiculous, but it was a product of the "sign everybody with a pulse so the other guys can't have them" mentality.

We still see the remnant of that today I think, even with smaller rosters. In the rush to try to find the next 12 big things, there's little room for true jobbers in the traditional sense. Effectively, MVP & Bourne are the jobbers, simply by virtue of them being the people you've decided are good to get some TV time but that you aren't ready/willing to push.

The skill set of the midcard-and-below guys is better today than it was in the 70's in many ways (although a number of the old guys knew how to sell a squash) so you end up with workers who have the ring skill to deserve a better fate but really few opportunities to be elevated because the people above them have their own set of positives.

Yep.

I think the solution to this is every month or two, bring up a few deserving FCW guys. Don't give them huge gimmicks, but guys who have earned a chance to appear on Raw. Let them get some experience working on Raw/SD and do jobs to the guys who need to be put over. Then you send them down so they don't get stuck in the role as a jobber and bring up the next guy or two.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

I don't know if I am ready for Doink to go over big.

Ooops - though Matt Bourne would actually work as either the washed up old guy jobber OR the cartoony gimmick jobber - bring him in WWE!

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by molson

Ooops - though Matt Bourne would actually work as either the washed up old guy jobber OR the cartoony gimmick jobber - bring him in WWE!

He's working the indy's as Rebourne. He got into a shoot with Jim Duggan at some indy show that ended with Hacksaw kicking him square in the face lol.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Michael Tarver, a guy who is easily one of the worst workers on either WWE or TNA's roster, has been turned into a bigger star then everyone in TNA who didn't at some point work for Vince.

Eh, I'd probably argue that Joe & AJ are better known than Tarver but your main point is valid afaic.

Until they add an Orton, Edge, Jericho or Punk type, they will be where they are which is fine until Spike says "okay, we need some real improvement".

That brings a couple of points to mind, first, whether Spike has anyone who actually understands what would constitute "real improvement" beyond the raw ratings data. I mean, every bit of inside info that's been out there since they went to Spike has indicated that the network is the one pushing for additions like Sting, Foley, Hogan, etc. And how's that been working out for them?

Your mention of Punk also highlights the gap in the ability of the promotions to elevate workers. He could have easily been a TNA guy, an IWC darling that could have ended up close to what AJ is for them. And the only way the Orton/Edge/Jericho move happens is when they're as washed up as the ones we complain about now, the sheer difference in salary effectively secures that.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Eh, I'd probably argue that Joe & AJ are better known than Tarver but your main point is valid afaic.



That brings a couple of points to mind, first, whether Spike has anyone who actually understands what would constitute "real improvement" beyond the raw ratings data. I mean, every bit of inside info that's been out there since they went to Spike has indicated that the network is the one pushing for additions like Sting, Foley, Hogan, etc. And how's that been working out for them?

Your mention of Punk also highlights the gap in the ability of the promotions to elevate workers. He could have easily been a TNA guy, an IWC darling that could have ended up close to what AJ is for them. And the only way the Orton/Edge/Jericho move happens is when they're as washed up as the ones we complain about now, the sheer difference in salary effectively secures that.

Well he was a TNA guy, then the Feinstein incident occurred and TNA said they were pulling all talents from ROH shows which is reasonable. Punk however said there was no way he was going to ditch ROH and picked them over TNA.

Boy how that came back to bite them, but given the circumstances over that whole situation I can't blame them for that.

Also, you are right in that if they get any of the guys I mentioned it'll be if they are washed up. Though the rumor is Jericho will take another hiatus in October or November when his WWE deal is up. He won't ever sign there with Bischoff around but if Bischoff left I could see Jericho possible heading there which would be a huge coup for TNA since he can obviously still go and has some mainstream (see Hollywood) appeal.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Another point here somewhere is how much time TNA spends (because of Spike) trying to attract M18-34 but it's rarely talked about how the biggest segment of their audience has consistently been 40+. And that was even more the case when they were pushing the younger guys without the WWE/WCW castoffs.

That audience isn't the one they want ... but it's the one that seems most readily available to them & the most willing to give them a chance.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Credit where it's due, Guns vs Beer Money are burning down the fucking house right now. I wasn't sold on all the spoiler hype, but this really is AMW vs Styles/Daniels caliber work right here, and that's about the highest praise tag team wrestling gets in my house.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I was literally waiting for this page to load so I could type "THIS IS AWESOME" ... and the geniuses in production decided to put a commercial right in the middle of the 3rd & final fall.

That's one of the most absurd production decisions I've ever seen, and that's considering I've watched a lot of Monday Nitro's.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Credit where it's due, Guns vs Beer Money are burning down the fucking house right now. I wasn't sold on all the spoiler hype, but this really is AMW vs Styles/Daniels caliber work right here, and that's about the highest praise tag team wrestling gets in my house.

I just turned this on about 15 minutes ago and wow. I don't follow TNA much and don't really know either team, but that was better than any match WWE has put on in years.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I just turned this on about 15 minutes ago and wow. I don't follow TNA much and don't really know either team, but that was better than any match WWE has put on in years.

They did so much right in that match, I don't know how much was scripted & how much was being called in the ring but the pacing & psychology was extraordinary at times. A great job of avoiding obvious falls really built the anticipation and I say that in spite of knowing from the spoilers how it would end. They were appropriately blown up which added to the drama, there was a great shot of Sabin slapping his own face for a second trying to revive himself, just a tiny thing but it actually served a purpose.

I think Tenay was channeling Schiavone with his "best series ever" comment at the end, I still think Benoit v Booker was better in terms of a series, but as a match in a series it's a definite contender.

As a side note, I thought my son said something interesting during the match, telling really: "This is really ROH quality work we're getting", how sad is it that no one with authority would truly understand what he meant by that nor how that's not the image that you want to concede to a smaller promotion that really shouldn't be able to touch you in terms of roster or work rate.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Shitty editing there, since we're getting a Flair entrance after he was heard on mic earlier screaming "MY company".

Spoilers described that short segment as possibly the bloodiest beatdown in the history of wrestling, and perhaps the longest at somewhere between 20-25 minutes long.

[Toddzilla]

Probably edidted out of necessity, were it as brutal as the reports say it was. I like that they are positioning a group to "defend" TNA from the ECW guys - choosing Fortune to do it makes me thing TNA want's to give them the "cool-heel" rub ala Stone Cold had.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

I like that they are positioning a group to "defend" TNA from the ECW guys - choosing Fortune to do it makes me thing TNA want's to give them the "cool-heel" rub ala Stone Cold had.

Only to inevitably play them off as NWO B-Team chumps to the real heels behind it all.

[Sun Tzu]

+1 on the quality of the Beer Money/Guns match tonight. I've been looking forward to this match for a week. It lived up to the hype 100%.

I was very surprised to see the ECW guys come back out. I just kind of assumed it would be a one off thing. Am I dreaming thinking that Shane Douglas will eventually get back in the ring?

[DeToxRox]

Former WWE wrestler Lance Cade passed away sometime within the last 24 hours according to PWI. He was only 29. He was fired initially for a drug induced seizure on a plane, and had gone to rehab. It's hard not to speculate but at 29 it seems likely the death wasn't of natural causes.

[molson]

Geez.

I guess it says something for the wellness policy that the WWE does seem to be getting good at getting rid of guys who are near the end and don't want to get better (Cade, Umaga, Test just in the last year or two.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

I guess it says something for the wellness policy that the WWE does seem to be getting good at getting rid of guys who are near the end and don't want to get better (Cade, Umaga, Test just in the last year or two.)

In fairness (I guess), Cade claimed that his second release (he was cut, rehired, then cut again a year later) was because he asked for help with sleeping pill addiction that began while he was going through withdrawal from his original painkiller addiction.

Not much credence given to that accusation as far as I can tell but it was out there & seemed worth noting.

[TLK]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

ECW was amazing, and I'll never forget being like 13 and staying up until 2 AM to watch it on WADL and then ordering all the PPV's and buying the tapes. I spent a ton of cash on ECW and never regretted it.

Exact same story here, except I remember watching it on PASS. I think that was before WADL days. I had to have a job at 15 to support my ECW tape habit.

[DeToxRox]

WWE issued the following:

World Wrestling Entertainment was informed Friday morning by Lance McNaught’s father that he has passed away of apparent heart failure.

WWE extends its deepest condolences to the McNaught family.

Mr. McNaught was under contract from March 2003 to October 2008 and performed under the name "Lance Cade." He returned to FCW, WWE’s developmental territory, in September 2009, and was released in April 2010.

[Mota]

They say that you'll always love the music you first got laid to.

I believe the same thing applies to wrestling to a certain degree. When you're coming of age, you'll associate with the hot new wrestler that's coming up. For the kids today it's John Cena. But in TNA who is it? As they keep on adding 40+ guys to their roster, the teenage crowd does not associate with them as they are their dad's wrestlers. This is exactly why they should be taking new talents, protecting them and develop them by making them work with the greats, and eventually defeating them. Putting Sting, Jeff Jarrett, Hulk Hogan and Kevin Nash in one angle is a waste as none of them have any upside and their popularity will never change. So basically it is just a time filler.

I applaud the WWE for making this step recently, although it was kinda forced on them by the mass exodus in their roster. I wish they weren't so afraid to push new talent, the policy of holding them back for several years doesn't help them to develop new talent.

[SirFozzie]

BTW, the apparent reason for the RVD injury angle and the vacating of the TNA world championship is: TNA had already used RVD for nearly all the appearances that he had signed for..

[Terps]

They did the same thing with Foley, wasted all of his appearances right away, not he only has a few left.