Unofficial Official 2012-13 College Basketball Thread

[digamma]

A couple days late--family time yesterday, but the Harvard game turned out as I feared. Fell behind early on poor shooting and probably being a little too amped up and couldn't get it back together against a more athletic team.

Nevertheless, it was a great season. Next year's team will be better on paper. Just have to get them to play together. I hope it is Amaker who has to do that, but I think we'll see his name floated for a few places in the next few days/weeks.

[mckerney]

Tubby Smith out at Minnesota - CBSSports.com

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

People who brag about their brackets baffle me. If you've been at this long enough, I would think you realize A) it's a crapshoot so B) the secretary always wins so C) there's nothing to gain from bragging unless you've actually won.

SI

Next year, my 11 year old daughter is picking mine.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Tubby Smith out at Minnesota - CBSSports.com

If they get Smart this will be a good move, but it seems much more likely that they will go down rather than up.

[Butter]

I hear Dan Monson is available.

[dawgfan]

Some good articles today on Howland's fall. This is a free one from SI detailing his recruiting missteps:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/-co...2_a3&eref=sihp

BRO also has a good piece ($) covering some of the same ground. Bottom line - Howland changed his approach after the three Final 4's in a row, and that change got him away from what made him successful. And in the process, he burned bridges in SoCal recruiting circles.

It's bad news for me as a Husky fan, because chances are the new UCLA coach will make it harder for Romar to poach high level SoCal recruits (if he isn't actually hired by UCLA, which is a possibility).

[Lathum]

Part of me almost hopes they hire Romar just to stick it to all the idiot fans that want him gone.

[sovereignstar v2]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

If they get Smart this will be a good move, but it seems much more likely that they will go down rather than up.

Smart does seem like a long shot, but I guess you never know. I'm just glad we have an AD that loves basketball and dares to dream instead of settling for 46-62 in the Big Ten.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Part of me almost hopes they hire Romar just to stick it to all the idiot fans that want him gone.

You'll never be able to cure the idiots.

[MrBug708]

I would laugh if UCLA hired a coach who missed the tournament last year. We might as well give up basketball

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

Smart does seem like a long shot, but I guess you never know. I'm just glad we have an AD that loves basketball and dares to dream instead of settling for 46-62 in the Big Ten.

By all means, more power to Minnesota and their fans. Just be prepared for some static from various press circles over this. Trust me. If I'm wrong, count yourself lucky and I'll complain about the double-standard that exists for NC State and their fans over Sendek leaving for ASU when State fans were pretty much crucified for wanting to see their program do somewhere near as well as they did historically and had to wait ten years (not six like in Tubby's case) to find out that it wasn't going to happen. (No, I'm not bitter over all that stuff, really. I've moved on.... I mean it. I really have.... )

[HeavyReign]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

It's bad news for me as a Husky fan, because chances are the new UCLA coach will make it harder for Romar to poach high level SoCal recruits (if he isn't actually hired by UCLA, which is a possibility).

It seems to me like Washington has really only had light success recruiting California since they got Pondexter and Adrian Oliver. In recent years they've had:

Desmond Simmons
Darnell Gant
Justin Holiday
Tyreese Breshers

I think Breshers had committed to Miami maybe but I don't recall a lot of high level competition overall for the players they've signed. On the other hand they have finished second to UCLA for a number of California players. Not landing enough talent out of California is probably one of the things that has kept them from taking the next step. I wonder of the fact that they are being more active with transfer players has anything to do with the amount of success Oregon has had there.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

By all means, more power to Minnesota and their fans. Just be prepared for some static from various press circles over this. Trust me. If I'm wrong, count yourself lucky and I'll complain about the double-standard that exists for NC State and their fans over Sendek leaving for ASU when State fans were pretty much crucified for wanting to see their program do somewhere near as well as they did historically and had to wait ten years (not six like in Tubby's case) to find out that it wasn't going to happen. (No, I'm not bitter over all that stuff, really. I've moved on.... I mean it. I really have.... )

Gophers fans arent realistic. Havent been good in football or basketball since 1962 however 2 of the 3 coaches that brought them marginal success along the way were shoved right out the door. This is very similar to the Glen Mason firing who everyone wanted gone as well for some goofy reason. Gopher fans really think they can compete with the Ohio States in football and Michigan St/Indians in basketball for some strange reason. Apparently they are younger than I am or have forgotten that the gophers dont win much and making a NCAA tourny is a good season for them.

The best argument I have seen for firing him was he didnt bring much energy to the program which I agree with but as far as getting a coach close to his level it is dreamland time.

[tarcone]

Isnt Shaka Smart going to Minny? Ties to the Assoc. AD.

[sovereignstar v2]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Gophers fans arent realistic. Havent been good in football or basketball since 1962 however 2 of the 3 coaches that brought them marginal success along the way were shoved right out the door. This is very similar to the Glen Mason firing who everyone wanted gone as well for some goofy reason. Gopher fans really think they can compete with the Ohio States in football and Michigan St/Indians in basketball for some strange reason. Apparently they are younger than I am or have forgotten that the gophers dont win much and making a NCAA tourny is a good season for them.

The best argument I have seen for firing him was he didnt bring much energy to the program which I agree with but as far as getting a coach close to his level it is dreamland time.

Ah yes. The ol' "you've never been good" argument. I have never heard that one before.. Competing with Ohio State/Mich St/Indiana? What a load of shit. I've been following the Gophers for many years and I've never heard a fan that delusional. However, I don't see why we shouldn't be able to compete with the next tier. Wisconsin football and basketball were nothing special, then Barry Alvarez and Bo Ryan came along.

Why do we have to pay millions to someone like Tubby, who has proven he can't do any better than average? What's so wrong with looking for the next up and comer? Why are people so offended by that?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

Ah yes. The ol' "you've never been good" argument. I have never heard that one before.. Competing with Ohio State/Mich St/Indiana? What a load of shit. I've been following the Gophers for many years and I've never heard a fan that delusional. However, I don't see why we shouldn't be able to compete with the next tier. Wisconsin football and basketball were nothing special, then Barry Alvarez and Bo Ryan came along.

Why do we have to pay millions to someone like Tubby, who has proven he can't do any better than average? What's so wrong with looking for the next up and comer? Why are people so offended by that?

The guys to compete with the Iowas and Wisconsins of the world are now gone.(Mason and Tubby) Guys like you didnt have the patience to win 8/20 games a year until that magical team came around which is basically the best chance the gophers have of reaching them lofty goals. Lets just say starting back over just starts the same damn cycle over they have been trying for years. Remember Wacker, Munson, Gutikunz? They have tried many things for years and sadly this is as good as it gets.

How has Tubby proved to be average? Was the 5th fastest coach to win 365 games. Only 3 seasons in his career did he fail to win 20 games. Hes not coaching at Kentucky, this is Minnesota where 20 wins is a good season if the past is any indication.

3 NCAA tournys in 6 years for Tubby, 1 from Munson, and Clem Haskins who many think of as being wonderful only made 6 NCAA tournys in 13 years. And 4 of them are actually gone from the record books.

Minnesota needs to build some momentum before the recruits will come. You cant build momemtum when you continue to start over.

[corbes]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Sorry, but I don't buy this. Wouldn't the better career trajectory be Krysewski at Duke? Why follow in people's footsteps when you can create your own legacy and build a program to immortal status?

FWIW I've been thinking about this comment and have been persuaded that jumping at a top-5 opening (UCLA or otherwise) isn't necessarily a no-brainer move for an up and coming coach.

[sovereignstar v2]

You're right, Smith was a good coach. Now he's a coach that goes from #8 in the country to 9th in the Big Ten. How's that for momentum?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

By all means, more power to Minnesota and their fans. Just be prepared for some static from various press circles over this. Trust me. If I'm wrong, count yourself lucky and I'll complain about the double-standard that exists for NC State and their fans over Sendek leaving for ASU when State fans were pretty much crucified for wanting to see their program do somewhere near as well as they did historically and had to wait ten years (not six like in Tubby's case) to find out that it wasn't going to happen. (No, I'm not bitter over all that stuff, really. I've moved on.... I mean it. I really have.... )

Did people really think Sidney Lowe was going to have Jim Valvano success?

I guess I can understand the appeal of wanting to take a risk and find the next great young coach who everything will click for but it seems like the rate of success for doing that when you're outside the very most elite programs is pretty minuscule. The pattern repeats all the time, have a little success, but then the fans get accustomed to it, so the program blows things up and goes back in the toilet for a while. Then, everyone gets excited about glimmers of hope of a new coach, but soon they get accustomed to that, it's not enough, time to blow it up again. So many discarded coaches had so much promise and excitement surrounding them at the beginning. That can be intoxicating I guess, but the results are never going to be able to keep up with that initial excitement for very long. And at the end of the day, you run into a math problem. There's only 4 teams that can get to a final four every year, and the the number of programs who could conceivably get there seems to grow every year. The elite powers usually have a stranglehold on a couple of those spots, so there's maybe 1 or 2 for everyone else. You can do everything great as a program, have great coaching, but the odds are still heavily against you. If that's what programs measure success by, most will be disappointed pretty much all the time.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Isnt Shaka Smart going to Minny? Ties to the Assoc. AD.

Does this give him more job security?

[molson]

Smart has had options, I think like Peterson at Boise St. it really has to be the right spot to make a jump. It's about 80% likely they'll get vilified and fired in 5-6 years at the new job at the bigger programs. They probably can only cash in off their success once. Maybe the money makes that risk worth it, but those guys are making more money every year.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

You're right, Smith was a good coach. Now he's a coach that goes from #8 in the country to 9th in the Big Ten. How's that for momentum?

They built momentum from making the tourny and winning a game in the NCAA tourny.

Baby steps. Wisconsin didnt just suddenly go from crap to tier one in football. They slowly improved, until they made a rose bowl when the pieces fell into place, they used that to improve their recruiting to where they could stay towards the top of the Big 10 until the pieces fell into place for another Rose Bowl. They didnt become great and always on top the Big Ten until Alvarez retired.

Gopher fans dont have time for baby steps. Gopher football actually had its year in 2003 however they blew a 28 point lead at home to Michigan. Gophers hold on and win that game who knows there they would be today.

Im willing to live with a coach that can put us in position to get a lucky break to take to that next level over one that will probably sink us back to the Munson days.

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by molson

Did people really think Sidney Lowe was going to have Jim Valvano success?

I'm not sure, but given how everyone in the press said that State could never compete with Duke and UNC ever again in basketball and that they should just accept being a mediocre basketball program for now and always, it really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Sendek was hired to return State to what it was under Valvano and earlier in 1996, which was only five years removed from Jimmy V's last year. Duke had only two national championships in the early 1990s and Carolina had three, so that mountain wasn't particularly far to climb since State had two themselves (note: not saying he had to win a national title to keep his job, but the historical difference between State, Duke, and UNC wasn't so great when he first started as when he left--he never found a way to keep up, or at least stay within shouting distance). However, as Duke and UNC took off, State got stuck in neutral under Sendek who took five years just to get to the NCAAs and then meandered through the next five without much progress before deciding Arizona State was a better job. By the time he left, Duke and UNC had racked up more national titles and everyone decided that State fans were being deusional for running Sendek off because they were asking him to return to some unattainable level when it was wasn't that unattainable when he first started out there.

As for the Lowe hire, that was a by-product of a badly-handled coaching search. There were a fair number of possible candidates who considered and rejected State before Lowe was pretty much taken in desperation. State fans tried to console themselves with the "he's one of us, he'll be fine" thought process, but given his unspectacular record in the NBA, there were certainly misgivings. He seemed to assuage that by reaching the ACC championship that first year despite starting out at a #10 seed in the tournament, but he never capitalized on it and the team continued to get worse until there was nothing left to do but fire him.

To this day, however, there are still very bitter feelings about Sendek's tenure at State. Some fans can barely contain their glee that Sendek hasn't been able to improve things at Arizona State, which justifies their feelings about him and allows them to shout "Up yours!" at all the media who got on them for "pushing him out" by his taking the ASU job. Others (and I'm in this camp) are just sick of talking about it anymore, but every time anyone cares to say that, they're usually accused of being happy with the way things were under Sendek and so another flame war erupts and on it goes.

(And yes, I fully expect "tl;dr" from this, but unfortunately, this is a complex issue that doesn't condense well).

[Glengoyne]

I finally looked at my Bracket after a busy weekend. It looks like I put the Midwest and West brackets together Sunday evening , and then I threw darts at the East and South.

I only missed three games in the Western brackets, and I think I only got about four or five right on the other two. All in all about par for the course, or even a bit better than the past few years for my brackets...nine of my sweet sixteen teams are in the running. I used to be good at this, too much work and too much play have really cut back my college basketball habit.

Before the seeds were even announced I'd decided that Georgetown was going to be out in one. Then I saw the pairings, and didn't even know what FGCU was. I still may not...That is it right? Doh!

[corbes]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

return State to what it was under Valvano and earlier in 1996, which was only five years removed from Jimmy V's last year

A UNC alum here who sincerely hopes that State is able to do just that. I LOVED looking forward to those games in the late 80s. I see no reason why they can't get back to that position with the right personnel in the Athletic Dep't.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

You're right, Smith was a good coach. Now he's a coach that goes from #8 in the country to 9th in the Big Ten. How's that for momentum?

I think this pretty much sums it up.

Minny would have been nuts to continue to pay Tubby to be middling and to cast a we're-heading-in-the-wrong-direction vibe around the program.

He won a title at Kentucky with Pitino's players and that was 15 years ago. He hasn't been back to a Final Four since. And it's been 20 years since he took Tulsa to S16's. I just don't see anything that justified keeping him on.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by corbes

A UNC alum here who sincerely hopes that State is able to do just that. I LOVED looking forward to those games in the late 80s. I see no reason why they can't get back to that position with the right personnel in the Athletic Dep't.

And it's nice when State's able to knock off Duke every so often, too...

[spleen1015]

They can win all of the games they want in January. I'll take still being alive for a title on 3/26.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I think this pretty much sums it up.

Minny would have been nuts to continue to pay Tubby to be middling and to cast a we're-heading-in-the-wrong-direction vibe around the program.

He won a title at Kentucky with Pitino's players and that was 15 years ago. He hasn't been back to a Final Four since. And it's been 20 years since he took Tulsa to S16's. I just don't see anything that justified keeping him on.

+1

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I think this pretty much sums it up.

Minny would have been nuts to continue to pay Tubby to be middling and to cast a we're-heading-in-the-wrong-direction vibe around the program.

He won a title at Kentucky with Pitino's players and that was 15 years ago. He hasn't been back to a Final Four since. And it's been 20 years since he took Tulsa to S16's. I just don't see anything that justified keeping him on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneso...9;s_basketball

This is why. Check out that illustrious history. Really been a non factor in college basketball after WW2 except if you want to count the tainted final four year. So of course I am quite worried about falling back to never being ranked and never being in th NCAA tourny again like they are the majority of the time.

3 of their 12 NCAA tourny appearances were under tubby(8 if you dont count forfeited years)

4 out of their 14 20 win seasons were under Tubbys watch(10 if you choose to not count the forfieted seasons)

Its not that Tubby is the greatest coach around but he is better than anything the Gophers will get now and all things considered he did a fine job. They won 9 games the year before he took over. He made 3 NCAA tournys and won 20 games 4 of the 6 years he was around.

[hoopsguy]

At least one report says that Smart will be sticking with VCU.
VCU gets Smart, retains coach with long-term extension - Yahoo! Sports

[Wolfpack]

A rumor running rampant right now on State websites is that Gottfried has picked up support from UCLA boosters and that he'd come if called.

Source: UCLA Boosters Want Mark Gottfried | ZagsBlog.com

I've got no idea of the trustworthiness of this source, though. I think the majority of both fanbases involved would be filled with some dread at this because UCLA fans probably think this is an underwhelming choice while State fans will just see this as a continuation of NC State $#!+, particularly because it's expected that CJ Leslie is gone, Zo Brown is possibly gone, Howell is gone, Wood is gone, and a coaching change pretty much jeopardizes our recruiting class that's supposed to be pretty good, all that off a disappointing season where it looked like State was finally back to being a perennial top program in the ACC.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

A rumor running rampant right now on State websites is that Gottfried has picked up support from UCLA boosters and that he'd come if called.

Source: UCLA Boosters Want Mark Gottfried | ZagsBlog.com

I've got no idea of the trustworthiness of this source, though. I think the majority of both fanbases involved would be filled with some dread at this because UCLA fans probably think this is an underwhelming choice while State fans will just see this as a continuation of NC State $#!+, particularly because it's expected that CJ Leslie is gone, Zo Brown is possibly gone, Howell is gone, Wood is gone, and a coaching change pretty much jeopardizes our recruiting class that's supposed to be pretty good, all that off a disappointing season where it looked like State was finally back to being a perennial top program in the ACC.

Don't put stock into this. Most media that isn't tied directly into the UCLA AD and related individuals have no idea what is going on.

Gottfried is on a long list, but he is pretty far down it.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

A rumor running rampant right now on State websites is that Gottfried has picked up support from UCLA boosters and that he'd come if called.

Source: UCLA Boosters Want Mark Gottfried | ZagsBlog.com

I've got no idea of the trustworthiness of this source, though. I think the majority of both fanbases involved would be filled with some dread at this because UCLA fans probably think this is an underwhelming choice while State fans will just see this as a continuation of NC State $#!+, particularly because it's expected that CJ Leslie is gone, Zo Brown is possibly gone, Howell is gone, Wood is gone, and a coaching change pretty much jeopardizes our recruiting class that's supposed to be pretty good, all that off a disappointing season where it looked like State was finally back to being a perennial top program in the ACC.

I don't think anyone seriously believes that Casey Wasserman is talking with Adam Zagoria.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

At least one report says that Smart will be sticking with VCU.
VCU gets Smart, retains coach with long-term extension - Yahoo! Sports

I bet the biggest change would be the size of the buyout

[spleen1015]

Chris Collins is the new coach at Northwestern!

They're going to take over the B1G!!!!!!!!!

[Butter]

Another Coach K disciple... I always hated him as a player. Very cocky, but he was on some of the worst Duke teams of the Coach K era.

[dawgfan]

The more I think about it, the more I think Minnesota ought to take a hard look at Howland. Assuming Howland is making the necessary self-examinations of what went wrong for him at UCLA and willing to get back to what made him successful initially, I think Minnesota could be a great spot for him to start over.

[tarcone]

Iowa beats Virginia. Ont he road. Huge win for the program. We have only won 2 road games this season.
Team is really looking good. It was a struggle as Virginia played great defense for About 20 minutes in the middle of the game. We hung tough and got the win.
Terrible officiating. And by terrible, I mean Horrendous.

[Kodos]

VCU's Shaka Smart turns down UCLA, signs contract extension - March Madness 2013 - Pete Thamel - SI.com

Has this been covered yet?

Edit: I guess so. Wasn't sure if the earlier reports were official or conjecture.

[Wolfpack]

Gottfried just tweeted a little bit ago that he's staying at State, so it looks like that's that.

However, though not unexpected (albeit surprisingly quick after the season was over), Lorenzo Brown has declared for the draft. I haven't read anything whether it's irreversible because he signed with an agent, but I'd say he's gone regardless. Draft stock is probably as good as it's going to get and it's not exactly going to be a great draft.

Now it's down to CJ Leslie, though he's almost certain to go because of the same draft considerations.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Kodos

VCU's Shaka Smart turns down UCLA, signs contract extension - March Madness 2013 - Pete Thamel - SI.com

Has this been covered yet?

Edit: I guess so. Wasn't sure if the earlier reports were official or conjecture.

In other news, I turned down Kate Upton for sex

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

In other news, I turned down Kate Upton for sex

Just to make sure the info is out there, I have not turned this down.

[MrBug708]

Local news is reporting Brad Stevens is on UCLAs campus. I'm a skeptic tho

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I finally looked at my Bracket after a busy weekend. It looks like I put the Midwest and West brackets together Sunday evening , and then I threw darts at the East and South.

I only missed three games in the Western brackets, and I think I only got about four or five right on the other two. All in all about par for the course, or even a bit better than the past few years for my brackets...nine of my sweet sixteen teams are in the running. I used to be good at this, too much work and too much play have really cut back my college basketball habit.

Before the seeds were even announced I'd decided that Georgetown was going to be out in one. Then I saw the pairings, and didn't even know what FGCU was. I still may not...That is it right? Doh!

You only missed 3 games in the West? I thought for a second "ha. he only missed 3 in one of the chalkier brackets" like the East or Midwest. However, the West is the one that went all to crap. I tip my cap to you, good sir.

SI

[sterlingice]

I'm kindof surprised about Smart not giving UCLA more of a kick of the old tires. Again, as we talked about, this is a sleeping giant program. Then again, being a gigantic fish in a small pond can be appealing. Just ask Mark Few.

Also, I love all the Minnesota discussion. Something new and not about the same old teams.

SI

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I'm kindof surprised about Smart not giving UCLA more of a kick of the old tires. Again, as we talked about, this is a sleeping giant program. Then again, being a gigantic fish in a small pond can be appealing. Just ask Mark Few.

Also, I love all the Minnesota discussion. Something new and not about the same old teams.

SI

This is how the story should have been reported.

Shaka Smart to sign extension to remain at VCU - Yahoo! Sports

Instead, it makes it seem like UCLA offered the job to Smart and he turned it down. It just doesn't pass the smell test. Shaka smart, in 4 years of head coaching experience would turn down UCLA, a 300 percent raise to stay at mid major VCU. Not buying it, sorry.

Now, UCLA should have kept Smart warm while they pursue other jobs but instead Smart gets the feeling he isn't the top choice and decides to stick around. UCLA looks terrible, not that the media isn't killing us right now anyways

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Local news is reporting Brad Stevens is on UCLAs campus. I'm a skeptic tho

I hear he's looking at Bob Knight's house.

[molson]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Shaka smart, in 4 years of head coaching experience would turn down UCLA, a 300 percent raise to stay at mid major VCU.

He's up to $1.5 million at VCU, would UCLA really pay him $4.5 million? (Without even taking account of cost of living).

FWIW, SI is reporting he turned down UCLA. I don't think it's that crazy a proposition considering the job security at these programs, if you're not close to retirement anyway. There's a handful of other guys in football and basketball making decent money at mid-majors, by choice. Even ignoring quality of life, it probably makes sense to make the decent money when you're younger, build up your reputation, and make your one big splash at some desperate program willing to break the bank - where they give you so much money it doesn't even matter if they fire you in 5 or 6 years (and vilify you on the way out).

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I hear he's looking at Bob Knight's house.

I'm surprised you didn't say he was scheduled to throw out the first pitch at opening day for the Dodgers.