The Trump Presidency – 2016

[GrantDawg]

Rumor is that the leader of the Proud Boys was arrested as he entered DC today. It would be just misdemeanor damage of property from the last protest unless he was stupid enough to be armed.

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[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I have no such line myself, and find the concept of one so much as existing to be wrong. .02

Would you associate with a Klan member?

[Brian Swartz]

Of course.

[molson]

"There's good people on both sides." That's the normalization of this stuff we're going through.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by molson

"There's good people on both sides." That's the normalization of this stuff we're going through.

You don't believe there are good people on both sides?

I assume you mean this in the context of those supporting Trump now trying to cheat a win but do you also apply that to the 47% of voters that supported Trump in the election?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Edward64

You don't believe there are good people on both sides?

I assume you mean this in the context of those supporting Trump now trying to cheat a win but do you also apply that to the 47% of voters that supported Trump in the election?

I don't believe that anybody supports Trump and his actions today, or any members of the Klan, are good people. I guess they could be redeemable. But I don't have the time or the skill to be that person that leads them down that path. If they come around and acknowledge that they were evil fucktards, then I'd be willing to associate with them. But I'm not interested in friends or dealing with any family that think the election should be overturned and that Trump should be installed as a dictator, no. All bad people.

I know others' views on this are more complicated because the have racist Trump supporter parents or whatever. I'm lucky that I don't. It's not a drastic lifestyle change for me to choose not to be around them. It's a few extended relatives I probably wouldn't talk to anyway, and people on the periphery of my life here that I also probably wouldn't be friends with anyway (I wonder about my brother, but if he has any extreme views, he keeps them to himself, so I don't have to confront that situation with him). I don't have a facebook wall full of Trump friends and family saying crazy shit. Maybe if those things are in your life more regularly they're less horrifying. Which is kind of my entire point. We should be horrified.

[RainMaker]

If you're supporting the fascist, you're probably not a good person.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Would you associate with a Klan member?

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Of course.

lol.

"hey man, wanna grab a beer and watch the game?"

"sorry, I can't tonight. I am picking up my hood from the dry cleaner then going to go lynch the black family over an Anderson Ave. Maybe next week"

[GrantDawg]

The Nazi's are just misunderstood.

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[Edward64]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't believe that anybody supports Trump and his actions today, or any members of the Klan, are good people. I guess they could be redeemable. But I don't have the time or the skill to be that person that leads them down that path. If they come around and acknowledge that they were evil fucktards, then I'd be willing to associate with them. But I'm not interested in friends or dealing with any family that think the election should be overturned and that Trump should be installed as a dictator, no. All bad people.

I know others' views on this are more complicated because the have racist Trump supporter parents or whatever. I'm lucky that I don't. It's not a drastic lifestyle change for me to choose not to be around them. It's a few extended relatives I probably wouldn't talk to anyway, and people on the periphery of my life here that I also probably wouldn't be friends with anyway (I wonder about my brother, but if he has any extreme views, he keeps them to himself, so I don't have to confront that situation with him). I don't have a facebook wall full of Trump friends and family saying crazy shit. Maybe if those things are in your life more regularly they're less horrifying. Which is kind of my entire point. We should be horrified.

Okay, we'll agree to disagree on Trump supporters being "good/bad" people. There are obviously a small subset that I would classify as bad but majority of them are okay to good IMO.

Yes, I have in-laws that support Trump and I certainly don't consider them "bad" but more short sighted, ignorant, brainwashed etc. Short of a pedo, serial killer and like, I would associate with anyone willing to have a peaceful dialog. In fact, I would seek to better understand why that person believes the way they do. This does not mean I would go out of my way to socialize.

But yeah, if the first 5 minutes is non-sensical stuff or repeat of the non-productive stuff, I'll part ways gracefully.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Of course.

Not really surprising.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Okay, we'll agree to disagree on Trump supporters being "good/bad" people. There are obviously a small subset that I would classify as bad but majority of them are okay to good IMO.

Yes, I have in-laws that support Trump and I certainly don't consider them "bad" but more short sighted, ignorant, brainwashed etc. Short of a pedo, serial killer and like, I would associate with anyone willing to have a peaceful dialog. In fact, I would seek to better understand why that person believes the way they do. This does not mean I would go out of my way to socialize.

But yeah, if the first 5 minutes is non-sensical stuff or repeat of the non-productive stuff, I'll part ways gracefully.

I do have a hard time with Trump supporters as a whole. I haven't been confronted with that reality in a friendship or family matter that matters. But I'm comfortable drawing that no-go line for me specifically at supporting his efforts to overthrow the election. If they voted for him in 2016 because they hated Hillary and are now embarrassed about him, then it's a different thing. We're probably not going to be chummy and talk politics, but, I can deal with them a little more.

[Brian Swartz]

"Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" - Matthew 9:11

I'm not posting this to start a religious debate, this isn't the thread for that. The point is, this is hardly a new or revolutionary idea.

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

"Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" - Matthew 9:11

I'm not posting this to start a religious debate, this isn't the thread for that. The point is, this is hardly a new or revolutionary idea.

Is Trump the Christ figure now..?

You are a deluded person...

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

Is Trump the Christ figure now..?

You are a deluded person...

That's quite a leap.

[Brian Swartz]

Huh? I wasn't in any way implying Trump is Christ. Surely anybody remotely familiar with my posting history knows I don't even support Trump at all.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Huh? I wasn't in any way implying Trump is Christ. Surely anybody remotely familiar with my posting history knows I don't even support Trump at all.

That's an even bigger leap in this forum

Good thing you moved the conversation from the non-political Wuhan thread. It would have been a real mess!

[molson]

I think Brian was actually comparing himself to Jesus there, not Trump.

Jesus might love the Trump racist, but I'd bet even he wouldn't go bowling with him, or insist that his perspective was valid. He kind of approached it from a different level.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't believe that anybody supports Trump and his actions today, or any members of the Klan, are good people. I guess they could be redeemable. But I don't have the time or the skill to be that person that leads them down that path. If they come around and acknowledge that they were evil fucktards, then I'd be willing to associate with them. But I'm not interested in friends or dealing with any family that think the election should be overturned and that Trump should be installed as a dictator, no. All bad people.

+1

[molson]

Sidenote, in the context of all this, I am SO happy that my mother is currently posting on facebook about how much she loved watching Jimmy Carter, Rock and Roll President. And for protecting me from my racist grandfather, and not believing that all such views are valid and should be listened to. I'll have to thank her next time I talk to her. It's easier for me to talk tough about cutting Trumpers off when my parents and friends are so awesome and I don't have to really deal with it anyway.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Lathum

lol.

"hey man, wanna grab a beer and watch the game?"

"sorry, I can't tonight. I am picking up my hood from the dry cleaner then going to go lynch the black family over an Anderson Ave. Maybe next week"

I'm pretty sure we've mused about how, in 50 years, finding a MAGA hat at Grandpa's will be like finding a Klan hood.

(At least in most timelines. In the darkest ones, well, it's more of a badge than a scarlet letter)

SI

[GrantDawg]

The Proud Boys leader was arrested with two high capacity magazines on him. He also faces multiple damage of property charges and possible hate crime charges as well. Oops.

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[Edward64]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I'm pretty sure we've mused about how, in 50 years, finding a MAGA hat at Grandpa's will be like finding a Klan hood.

Thanks actually pretty funny.

I wonder what my grandkids will think of my novelty Andrew Yang for President t-shirt.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

The Proud Boys leader was arrested with two high capacity magazines on him. He also faces multiple damage of property charges and possible hate crime charges as well. Oops.

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And right before his rally in DC too. Shame.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by molson

I think Brian was actually comparing himself to Jesus there, not Trump.

Jesus might love the Trump racist, but I'd bet even he wouldn't go bowling with him, or insist that his perspective was valid. He kind of approached it from a different level.

Not comparing myself to Jesus at all - I surely hope I'm never guilty of that blasphemy.

I am comparing the Trump racist, as you put it, to the tax collectors and sinners mentioned. And I think we can be very confident that Jesus would have had no problem bowling with them, since eating with such people in that culture was a much more affirming act than going bowling with someone is in ours. Not only did Jesus do that, but he recruited one of them to be among the twelve disciples. He made a habit of hanging out with such people.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I am comparing the Trump racist, as you put it, to the tax collectors and sinners mentioned.

A) He usually asked them to stop sinning (and they either did/attempted to do or realized they couldn't stop and didn't hang out with him)
B) Trumpers (well at least the well off ones) are probably more like the Pharisees who Jesus liked to chastise in their faces.

Maybe the Trump voter comparison is too easy. What about the NAMBLA member?

[GrantDawg]

I am sure there are fine people in NAMBLA.....please recognize that as sarcasm.

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[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I am sure there are fine people in NAMBLA.....please recognize that as sarcasm.

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I don't think this was directed at me but since I've participated in the discussion ...

FWIW there is a line I draw on who I talk to. A person that supports Trump's views (e.g. the 47%) isn't that line, it's a higher bar for me.

Short of a pedo, serial killer and like, I would associate with anyone willing to have a peaceful dialog

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't believe that anybody supports Trump and his actions today, or any members of the Klan, are good people. I guess they could be redeemable. But I don't have the time or the skill to be that person that leads them down that path. If they come around and acknowledge that they were evil fucktards, then I'd be willing to associate with them. But I'm not interested in friends or dealing with any family that think the election should be overturned and that Trump should be installed as a dictator, no. All bad people.

I know others' views on this are more complicated because the have racist Trump supporter parents or whatever. I'm lucky that I don't. It's not a drastic lifestyle change for me to choose not to be around them. It's a few extended relatives I probably wouldn't talk to anyway, and people on the periphery of my life here that I also probably wouldn't be friends with anyway (I wonder about my brother, but if he has any extreme views, he keeps them to himself, so I don't have to confront that situation with him). I don't have a facebook wall full of Trump friends and family saying crazy shit. Maybe if those things are in your life more regularly they're less horrifying. Which is kind of my entire point. We should be horrified.

Here is the issue though. They TRULY in their heart of hearts feel like the election was stolen. My dad is 90 and supports Trump. He has been totally brainwashed by The Mark Levine show. My mother in law is the same way. They are 2 of the nicest people you have ever met, would literally do anything for you. My dad owned a pharmacy in town. Was the first to hire black people, carry black hair products, etc...doesn't have a racist bone in his body. Funny side note, he won an award a couple years ago. I went to the dinner with him and it turns out was an award from a foundation for black scholarships and he was given a humanitarian award. We stood out but had a great time.

Anyway. The think the dems stole the election, so in their minds everything trump does is justified because he was wronged. All he is doing i fixing things and fighting for what was taken from him. They think a Biden win is the death of democracy because it was stolen. they believe the "evidence" because they trust their source. I think a main reason so many older people support him is because they get their "news" from places like fox and in their days you could trust the news. They also lack the technological know how to fact check. My mother in law has told me she feels sorry for us and someday we will realize how wrong we have been. There really isn't anywhere to go with that. It is a lot more complex than "Trump supporters are bad people"

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Here is the issue though. They TRULY in their heart of hearts feel like the election was stolen. My dad is 90 and supports Trump. He has been totally brainwashed by The Mark Levine show. My mother in law is the same way. They are 2 of the nicest people you have ever met, would literally do anything for you. My dad owned a pharmacy in town. Was the first to hire black people, carry black hair products, etc...doesn't have a racist bone in his body. Funny side note, he won an award a couple years ago. I went to the dinner with him and it turns out was an award from a foundation for black scholarships and he was given a humanitarian award. We stood out but had a great time.

Anyway. The think the dems stole the election, so in their minds everything trump does is justified because he was wronged. All he is doing i fixing things and fighting for what was taken from him. They think a Biden win is the death of democracy because it was stolen. they believe the "evidence" because they trust their source. I think a main reason so many older people support him is because they get their "news" from places like fox and in their days you could trust the news. They also lack the technological know how to fact check. My mother in law has told me she feels sorry for us and someday we will realize how wrong we have been. There really isn't anywhere to go with that. It is a lot more complex than "Trump supporters are bad people"

There were many Nazis who in their heart believed the Jews were responsible for all the ills in the world. There are pedophiles who believe in their heart that sex with a child is natural and acceptable. Family annihilators believe their children are better off being dead than living in a world without them.

Whether it's ignorance or being brainwashed, it's not an acceptable excuse for adults.

[GrantDawg]

I was listening to a podcast talking about the way this cult like faith in conspiracy have just taken over a large portion of the Right. He said that it is nearly impossible to "deprogram" people once they have fully embraced these views. It is just so sad.

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[ISiddiqui]

Heck, I was just hearing about the former Governor of Georgia, Lester Maddox, a virulent segregationist who was described as being very kind and friendly to ordinary people, including random black people he'd meet. No one really believes that individual cordiality and kindness makes Governor Axe Handle not a bad person.

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[Brian Swartz]

I think separating people into 'good' and 'bad' is a pointless exercise.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Here is the issue though. They TRULY in their heart of hearts feel like the election was stolen. My dad is 90 and supports Trump. He has been totally brainwashed by The Mark Levine show. My mother in law is the same way. They are 2 of the nicest people you have ever met, would literally do anything for you. My dad owned a pharmacy in town. Was the first to hire black people, carry black hair products, etc...doesn't have a racist bone in his body. Funny side note, he won an award a couple years ago. I went to the dinner with him and it turns out was an award from a foundation for black scholarships and he was given a humanitarian award. We stood out but had a great time.

Anyway. The think the dems stole the election, so in their minds everything trump does is justified because he was wronged. All he is doing i fixing things and fighting for what was taken from him. They think a Biden win is the death of democracy because it was stolen. they believe the "evidence" because they trust their source. I think a main reason so many older people support him is because they get their "news" from places like fox and in their days you could trust the news. They also lack the technological know how to fact check. My mother in law has told me she feels sorry for us and someday we will realize how wrong we have been. There really isn't anywhere to go with that. It is a lot more complex than "Trump supporters are bad people"

Very well said.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I think separating people into 'good' and 'bad' is a pointless exercise.

Not if you believe in Purgatory (but you will have to add good, bad and grey).

Seriously, you have to add (or maybe repeat) the context here. I can't think of any reason why those classifications are pointless. I get there is grey but there is good and bad also.

[molson]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Heck, I was just hearing about the former Governor of Georgia, Lester Maddox, a virulent segregationist who was described as being very kind and friendly to ordinary people, including random black people he'd meet. No one really believes that individual cordiality and kindness makes Governor Axe Handle not a bad person.

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Hitler was nice to his dogs. (And that's a very big value for me!) But I personally don't want either to be a part of my own life. Same with Trumpers and racists who got to that point from delusion or ignorance. I can't know know their soul or what happened to them. I'm sure my grandfather's racism was explainable in some way. But I don't have to have them in my life. I have my hands full caring about regular good people I respect.

Edit: And, if people who hold these views just have something wrong with them, why should we treat the views as valid and worth listening to?

[Brian Swartz]

You have to define what good and bad mean for it to have any utility. The example ISiddiqui used is useful, as is the classic tale of the Farmer and his Horse.

If that governor had just been an everyday citizen and a segregationist, therefore not able to enforce any of those beliefs, would that make him a good person? Does him being outspoken about them make him a worse person for trying to advocate bad ideas, or a good person for being a public servant and being straightforward about who he authentically is in the world? What if he had better beliefs politically but was a jerk to everyone he met? Does that make him better or worse? Is it better to advocate an honest but destructive belief, or to say you believe something you really don't think to satisfy others?

There are a bazillion philosophical questions like these, and they are much more difficult to untangle than much more straightforward ones we can't come to an understanding of on this board. And that's without getting into all the more fundamental worldview issues such as what your source of morality is, something that a number of the worldviews represented here can never see eye to eye on.

Even with your purgatory example, I don't believe in that but I do believe in heaven and hell - but I don't think 'goodness' or 'badness' is the determining factor, but grace since if it was up to our goodness we'd all end up in the same place. I know much of the board will find that absurd. So yeah.

[RainMaker]

I think in this context we are calling fascism and racism bad. People can have debates on whether those things are bad but that is where myself and I'm guessing others stand.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There were many Nazis who in their heart believed the Jews were responsible for all the ills in the world. There are pedophiles who believe in their heart that sex with a child is natural and acceptable. Family annihilators believe their children are better off being dead than living in a world without them.

Whether it's ignorance or being brainwashed, it's not an acceptable excuse for adults.

Bingo and to draw it full circle back to "would you knowingly associate with a white supremacist?"

To answer the question as "yes" when you full well know the belief structure of the individual is a form of social acceptance. You are willing to give them the benefits they get from society despite their abhorrent beliefs. You feel that you can judge them beyond that belief, and that they are still worthy in terms of social credit.

That behavior empowers, reinforces, and does not punish or correct those beliefs that do not fit into what society has decided is acceptable. An individual that is wholly corrected by society, either through isolation, or even outright opposition is more likely to be ostracized from the group (peer pressure is a bitch). You're not taking a voice away from the individual. He is free to continue to believe and act how he wants within the framework of the law, but here, as the group decides that his worth is not worth the damage he causes then he is forced to survive on his own, outside the group. Continuing to treat him as if it's ok that he's part of the group is quite literally a form of support. That is exactly how societies and social psychology works.

{I know that's a bit wordy, but it's late and today was a long day, and I'm tired.}

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Bingo and to draw it full circle back to "would you knowingly associate with a white supremacist?"

To answer the question as "yes" when you full well know the belief structure of the individual is a form of social acceptance. You are willing to give them the benefits they get from society despite their abhorrent beliefs. You feel that you can judge them beyond that belief, and that they are still worthy in terms of social credit.

That behavior empowers, reinforces, and does not punish or correct those beliefs that do not fit into what society has decided is acceptable. An individual that is wholly corrected by society, either through isolation, or even outright opposition is more likely to be ostracized from the group (peer pressure is a bitch). You're not taking a voice away from the individual. He is free to continue to believe and act how he wants within the framework of the law, but here, as the group decides that his worth is not worth the damage he causes then he is forced to survive on his own, outside the group. Continuing to treat him as if it's ok that he's part of the group is quite literally a form of support. That is exactly how societies and social psychology works.

{I know that's a bit wordy, but it's late and today was a long day, and I'm tired.}

Forget about Trump in this discussion. It's a distraction because a racist person probably believes what he/she believes in before Trump. Or is this only specific to Trump supporters that are racist? (If it is, I would like to understand the rationale).

Forget about "white" supremacist. Does it matter what color a racist person is? (If it does to you, l would like to understand the rationale). Let's just say any racist person.

So if you had a parent(s) that you was racist (probably majority of us), you would not have discussions or socialize with them? Discussions like talking about why they believe what they believe.

Or would you socialize but not discuss their racist beliefs e.g. like having a simple lunch?

I am trying to understand what "knowingly associate" means here.

[GrantDawg]

If you get a chance, take listen to today's The Daily. They have an excellent example of how a seemingly reasonable person can be conditioned into believe the Trump fraud.

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[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Forget about Trump in this discussion. It's a distraction because a racist person probably believes what he/she believes in before Trump. Or is this only specific to Trump supporters that are racist? (If it is, I would like to understand the rationale).

Forget about "white" supremacist. Does it matter what color a racist person is? (If it does to you, l would like to understand the rationale). Let's just say any racist person.

So if you had a parent(s) that you was racist (probably majority of us), you would not have discussions or socialize with them? Discussions like talking about why they believe what they believe.

Or would you socialize but not discuss their racist beliefs e.g. like having a simple lunch?

I am trying to understand what "knowingly associate" means here.

This was in response to a longer conversation where Brian was asked if he would associate with a White Supremacist (proper noun, skinhead, proud boys, gonna lynch some n***** kind of person or group). trump doesn't factor into the conversation. It's about someone you know, who is openly a white supremacist. That is different from your garden variety grandfather who has some racism (yes, my grandfather who I loved, retired to Stone Mountain GA, and admitted to having some racist tendencies, and even as a teen I confronted him about it then). Unless we live somewhere else, that has been decided by the majority of our society as a bad thing. Not an all sides thing, a bad thing. They are listed as the main threat to domestic terrorism in the country. Not talking about other groups, but I'm sure there are. But they are not represented in nearly the same way. So my point was that passive acceptance, vis a vis, being friends, hanging out, "knowingly associate", even if you disagree with their choices, is reinforcing their beliefs and giving them social credit in society. There is no social punishment for them to change their ways, and they are reinforced that it's ok to be that person. That's what I'm talking about. If you're the sort of person who is ok with that, I'd recommend a bit deeper personal reflection. Because laws are for the legal system, but social mores and laws have their own set and define how we interact and what is ok and what is not. It's much more to do with how the brain works and how that each of us fits into society than just should they go to jail or not or should that be legal or not.

It is part of the larger discussion of how can you have a two-party democratic system when one party doesn't agree to the terms of that system? Do they have a voice? Sure, but if you both can't agree that the basis for your political system is what it is, then what do you have? So to, if you have people whose belief systems don't fit in with the social structure that everyone is trying to achieve, how can they be valid within the system? They can't. Which is why elevating those groups, either passively or actively is dangerous.

[Butter]

This whole far right resurgence has been a result of growing social acceptance of it. A whole bunch of people who didn't realize that it was still widely accepted by a large portion of this country were given permission not only to let their voices be heard, but to act out violently about it.

This needs to be stuffed back in the bottle and eradicated. By any means necessary. A little social shunning should be the least of their fucking concern.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Butter

This whole far right resurgence has been a result of growing social acceptance of it. A whole bunch of people who didn't realize that it was still widely accepted by a large portion of this country were given permission not only to let their voices be heard, but to act out violently about it.

YES, this.

[Brian Swartz]

There are things about every one of us that are emphatically not ok. Associating with people is not passive acceptance of their beliefs, and it doesn't give their beliefs 'social credit' or any other such thing. It acknowledges them as flawed human beings, which we all are, and does not endorse any of those particular flaws but rather their basic dignity and humanity. That's it, and that's all.

I understand the perspective that we need to shut all this stuff down, but that simply weakens society. A strong society isn't one that blocks out perspectives it finds too repugnant. It is one that exposes itself to all perspectives and withstands the ones that are harmful, very similar to how you have to subject metal to a certain amount of intense heat to weed out the impurities and make it strong. Without that treatment, it remains brittle. If we are at the point where we don't believe we are capable of doing that, than the point is made; it's time to move to a different form of society because we aren't capable of being a functioning democracy.

[Flasch186]

US described it very well in their movie. They've been able to come out and by holding hands have found support and empowerment for their most base feelings and opinions. They won't go back away quickly I assure you.

[molson]

It's easier to fall into these traps of hate if there's no real consequences to doing so. Enabling them just strengthens their illness.

My parents would have to choose a relationship with me or with their hate community if it came to that. I wouldn't pretend that's OK.

If they kept it to themselves, I wouldn't know about it, so that would work too. But if I know about it, it's because they're trying to poison me, my siblings, their kids, ect.

[BYU 14]

Agree with Molson, let them express their rubbish, but hold them accountable.

[kingfc22]

Looking forward to the conspiracy theories when the votes for Loeffler/Purdue aren't a 1:1 ratio and how they differ from their vote tallies in November.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

There are things about every one of us that are emphatically not ok. Associating with people is not passive acceptance of their beliefs, and it doesn't give their beliefs 'social credit' or any other such thing. It acknowledges them as flawed human beings, which we all are, and does not endorse any of those particular flaws but rather their basic dignity and humanity. That's it, and that's all.

I understand the perspective that we need to shut all this stuff down, but that simply weakens society. A strong society isn't one that blocks out perspectives it finds too repugnant. It is one that exposes itself to all perspectives and withstands the ones that are harmful, very similar to how you have to subject metal to a certain amount of intense heat to weed out the impurities and make it strong. Without that treatment, it remains brittle. If we are at the point where we don't believe we are capable of doing that, than the point is made; it's time to move to a different form of society because we aren't capable of being a functioning democracy.

I agree to a point, but when the principal beliefs or perspectives are way beyond legality, which the likes of the Klan and Proud Boys are IMO, i think associating with them does tacitly show a degree of acceptance of that belief.

If someone is a member of a group like that, you know what they are: you don’t join the Klan because they have a good baseball program