Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[sterlingice]

Some Bush speech writer ripped it completely apart on MSNBC.

SI

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Ill take that as an SFL in agreement that McCain's speech wasn't very good...at least in comparison to Palin's.

Jeffrey Toobin on CNN says it was the worst speech by a nominee since Carter which I didnt hear obviously.

Well, it was definitely dull. At least it wasn't a bad culture war-ish speech

[Mac Howard]

It wasn't that bad, guys. He's certainly no Henry Vth but there's an element of sincerity there entirely missing from Palin's speech that was little more than rabble rousing once she got beyond her bio. As for Giuliani

I had to smile at one point when he delivered a punch line and the floor cheered loudly. The smile of an embarrassed little boy thinking "I did it, I did it!" passed over his face. I think he's well aware of his total lack of eloquence

Whether he's recovered the support from the centre that Palin antagonised remains to be seen. It remains an interesting campaign.

[EagleFan]

Leadership ability and public speaking ability are not one in the same. McCain has the leadership ability which Obama clearly lacks.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Leadership ability and public speaking ability are not one in the same. McCain has the leadership ability which Obama clearly lacks.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Leadership ability and public speaking ability are not one in the same. McCain has the leadership ability which Obama clearly lacks.

What are you on, and where can we go to get it declared a controlled substance?

[Groundhog]

I sorta hope McCain does get in now. I'd rather hear more about the wacky adventures of Palin over the next 4 years than the moaning about Obama and his wife!

[Jon]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Leadership ability and public speaking ability are not one in the same. McCain has the leadership ability which Obama clearly lacks.

But, the ability to inspire is a part of leadership. I have seen nothing in John McCain now that suggests he has any greater leadership ability than Barack Obama. McCain has sold his soul to get the nomination. He has renounced his previous positions to adopt the positions of the right wing of the Republican Party. He has hired former Bush people to run is campaign and his campaign is using the same disgusting tactics that he cried out against in 2000. He can claim as much as he wants that he is still the maverick from eight years ago, but he's not. He now believes in drilling, he now believes that abortion should be banned, he accuses his opponents of being traitors if they disagree with him, and his Vice-Presidential pick was someone who was a repeat offender on his pork barrel spending list (and apparently not vetted). What little detail in terms of policy in his speech was a regurgitation of Republican tactics. And his strategy of saying elect a Republican to fix problems that Republicans caused makes no sense.
Just because you were a prisoner of war does not mean he should be president. It doesn't make him a leader. Just because you're willing to restore brinkmanship as an American foreign policy does not make a person a leader. I question his judgment, his temperment, and, now, his integrity. His investigation into Abramoff was incomplete (he didn't go after everybody and they later turned around to help him) and his past is not really one of a reformer.

And, I felt bad for him tonite. His speech was bad. I mean painfully bad. You had the green screen, you had the crowd chanting USA when he talked about a guy who didn't have a job, he talked about standing on your side (my g/f mentioned that her physical therapist does it and maybe that's his health care plan), he said something about Palin working with her hands and her nose. He looked old and uncomfortable at times. Even Cindy McCain looked cross at times. And the kid yawning was priceless.

[ISiddiqui]

the ability to inspire is a part of leadership

It doesn't always have to be. I'd take one Eisenhower over a million John Kennedys.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by ace1914

And then we had those idiots in the crowd. Protesting is cool, but that was completely uncalled for.

Code Pinko. I thought McCain handled it with good humor.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Jon

But, the ability to inspire is a part of leadership. I have seen nothing in John McCain now that suggests he has any greater leadership ability than Barack Obama.

Voting "present" 123 times as a state legislator and spending over half of his 140 working days in the U.S. Senate campaigning for the presidency is an example of Obama's great leadership?

[Cork]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Leadership ability and public speaking ability are not one in the same. McCain has the leadership ability which Obama clearly lacks.

What exactly has McCain ever led? He has been part of the Washington establishment for a quarter century? That is not leadership. That is being part of the problem.

I served in the military, and it's great that he likes to continually remind us that he was a POW, but after hearing it for the millionth time, it really loses it's effectiveness. I would hope that it takes more than just being a former POW to make a good president. Remove McCain's military past and he is no different than the other two bit politicians in Washington.

McCain made his bed with the abomination that is the Bush Presidency, and it will cost him his final shot at the White House.

-Cork

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Voting "present" 123 times as a state legislator and spending over half of his 140 working days in the U.S. Senate campaigning for the presidency is an example of Obama's great leadership?

Talking point, much?

SI

[Jon]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Voting "present" 123 times as a state legislator and spending over half of his 140 working days in the U.S. Senate campaigning for the presidency is an example of Obama's great leadership?

Most of those present votes were done to provide leadership for the Democratic caucus in the Illinois State legislature.

As for McCain, he has missed ever major vote in the United States Senate since he began running for the White House, including FISA, funding the troops, the health care bill that even Teddy Kennedy came back to vote on. Voting record is not something McCain can really push.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Voting "present" 123 times as a state legislator and spending over half of his 140 working days in the U.S. Senate campaigning for the presidency is an example of Obama's great leadership?

To be fair, he did plan some really good community cookouts.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Jon

But, the ability to inspire is a part of leadership. I have seen nothing in John McCain now that suggests he has any greater leadership ability than Barack Obama. McCain has sold his soul to get the nomination. He has renounced his previous positions to adopt the positions of the right wing of the Republican Party. He has hired former Bush people to run is campaign and his campaign is using the same disgusting tactics that he cried out against in 2000. He can claim as much as he wants that he is still the maverick from eight years ago, but he's not. He now believes in drilling, he now believes that abortion should be banned, he accuses his opponents of being traitors if they disagree with him, and his Vice-Presidential pick was someone who was a repeat offender on his pork barrel spending list (and apparently not vetted). What little detail in terms of policy in his speech was a regurgitation of Republican tactics. And his strategy of saying elect a Republican to fix problems that Republicans caused makes no sense.
Just because you were a prisoner of war does not mean he should be president. It doesn't make him a leader. Just because you're willing to restore brinkmanship as an American foreign policy does not make a person a leader. I question his judgment, his temperment, and, now, his integrity. His investigation into Abramoff was incomplete (he didn't go after everybody and they later turned around to help him) and his past is not really one of a reformer.

And, I felt bad for him tonite. His speech was bad. I mean painfully bad. You had the green screen, you had the crowd chanting USA when he talked about a guy who didn't have a job, he talked about standing on your side (my g/f mentioned that her physical therapist does it and maybe that's his health care plan), he said something about Palin working with her hands and her nose. He looked old and uncomfortable at times. Even Cindy McCain looked cross at times. And the kid yawning was priceless.

Not to nit-pick, but Obama has changed his positions as well. Politics is about doing what gets you elected. Real leadership requires more then charisma. It requires vision (actual ideas, strategies, and goals) and substance. It requires a leader to think quickly and take swift action. It requires one to stand his ground and stand behind what he believes in, not catering to what is popular. To me, neither candidate has a lot of these qualities. It sucks that we are down to the two candidates we have. Of course, it's typical politics, no matter how they dress themselves.

I just wish the Libertarian party was a lot stronger.

[larrymcg421]

We can have all this fun trading of talking points (I could go to DailyKos and pick up a few), but the point that was being made is that McCain gave a terrible speech. That seems to really bother the same conservatives that were masturbating over Palin's speech and has them rather defensive.


Point: This was not a good night for McCain.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I started to make reference to that but I figured the difference would be obvious: McCain is running against Obama 08, not Bush 04.

Besides, what other choice for strategy does McCain really have? Even most of the people who are planning to vote for him aren't very happy about it. There's nothing he can do to significantly change that without alienating the voters he already has. If he doesn't run "against Obama", he's toast. If he does, I genuinely believe he's got a very good chance of winning in spite of himself. And if he doesn't then we'll get exactly what we deserve.

No, I don't disagree with you - if you noted, I agreed that this is a referendum on Obama. I guess I think of Americans as fundamentally optimistic - they'd rather vote for someone (make that effort) as opposed to voting against someone.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

We can have all this fun trading of talking points (I could go to DailyKos and pick up a few), but the point that was being made is that McCain gave a terrible speech. That seems to really bother the same conservatives that were masturbating over Palin's speech and has them rather defensive.


Point: This was not a good night for McCain.

FWIW, four of the five analysts on CNN gave him high marks for tonight, so I wouldn't really say that it's a fact that he gave a terrible speech.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by VPI97

FWIW, four of the five analysts on CNN gave him high marks for tonight, so I wouldn't really say that it's a fact that he gave a terrible speech.

I wouldn't say it is a fact, because it's not something that can really be a fact. However, I think the reactions of the conservatives in this thread are pretty telling. Not one of them defended McCain by saying he gave a good speech. Instead, they went into attack mode.

[Butter]

McCain didn't need to give a good speech. Palin got the base fired up.

McCain just needs to not blow it during the debates and he still has a chance. A small, shrinking chance.

[ISiddiqui]

Attack mode?

When someone says that great speaking = great leadership to try to put down McCain, I only think its fair to go after the great speaking opponent, don't you? And let us not get into the attacks of the Obamaniacs ever since McCain won the primaries.

[JPhillips]

It surprised me how poorly written the speech was. I didn't expect him to deliver it well, but he didn't have much to wok with. The ending wasn't bad, but there wasn't much flow to the speech.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Pretty funny to hear some of the comments about McCain's speech being boring or lacking excitement. Anyone who follows politics or has read even portions of this thread knows that McCain's weakest point in the campaign would likely be last night at his acceptance speech. I think the first 60-70% of the speech was mostly just a listing of policies that he would implement without any real barn-burning lines. It was relatively boring, but did lay out some of his ideas going forward. I thought the last 15-20 minutes were much better. That was when he started talking about his military experiences, the current military, and how he would deal with foreign aggression (countries or terrorists). It appeared that he was much more interested in telling those stories and making those points. Much better than the earlier part of the speech.

Overall, it was nothing particularly special and was likely the weakest of the 4 Prez/VP speeches from a presentation standpoint. With that said, most McCain supporters (and voters in general for that matter) knew that in advance and they also know that he's much better in less formal settings. He also did very well in presenting his leadership credentials. The CBSNews poll from late last night after McCain's speech shows a dead heat in overall national polls. If those early poll results are accurate and he pulled even after what most voters would agree was his weakest portion of the campaign, that bodes well for the Republican ticket.

[JPhillips]

The CBSNews poll from late last night after McCain's speech shows a dead heat in overall national polls. If those early poll results are accurate and he pulled even after what most voters would agree was his weakest portion of the campaign, that bodes well for the Republican ticket.

Fail.

Those poll numbers were released before the speech. Even if they had been released after the speech there's no way a poll can be conducted in an hour or two.

So, now you'll say that's even better news for the Republicans. Maybe, but let's look at the internals of the CBS poll. Between the last poll where Obama was +8 and this poll where they're tied the sample changed dramatically. This second poll had nearly six percent more Republicans than the previous poll. Every polling outfit struggles with putting together a realistic model of voters, so this isn't bias, the second sample may turn out to closer model voters for all we know. However, when the sample changes this much from one poll to the next it's impossible to validate a large change in the outcome.

McCain will likely get some bounce starting with today's numbers, but you need to look more closely at polls, especially the ones that tell you what you want to hear.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

McCain will likely get some bounce starting with today's numbers, but you need to look more closely at polls, especially the ones that tell you what you want to hear.

Hence the reason I specifically noted 'if those early polls are accurate'?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Interesting story being floated over at the Drudge Report. Oprah is balking at having Sarah Palin on her show, despite overwhelming audience requests to have her on the show. Oprah and the show's executive producer are big Obama backers, both from a voting and financial standpoint............

DILEMMA: OPRAH BALKS AT HOSTING SARAH PALIN; STAFF DIVIDED
Fri Sep 05 2008 08:55:46 ET

Oprah Winfrey may have introduced Democrat Barack Obama to the women of America -- but the talkshow queen is not rushing to embrace the first woman on a Republican presidential ticket, sources tell the DRUDGE REPORT.

Oprah's staff is sharply divided on the merits of booking Sarah Palin, insiders reveal.

"Half of her staff really want Sarah Palin her on, Oprah's website is getting tons of requests to put her on, but Oprah and a couple of her top people are adamantly against it because of Obama," a source explains.

One executive close to Winfrey is warning any Palin ban could ignite a dramatic backlash!

It is not clear if Oprah has softened her position after watching Palin's historic convention speech.

In the past, Oprah has refused to have other high-profile Republicans on her top-rated show. Last year, Winfrey blocked an appearance by Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, timed to a promotional tour of his autobiography.

Oprah and executive producer Shari Salata, who has contributed thousands of dollars to Obama's campaign, refused requests for comment.

[SFL Cat]

FWIW...e-mail from a friend of mine in Arkansas who is a self-described libertarian. He unsuccessfully ran for Congress as an independent.

*e-mail*
This is not an endorsement. Just FYI.
I found it interesting.
Dale


----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Spalten



Subject: Who is Sarah Palin by an Alaskan Brush Pilot and Guide



One of our good friends, Eddie Spalten from San Antonio , fishes at the Wildman Lodge on the Alaskan Peninsula . The lodge is owned by Butch and Kathy Wildman. The Wildmans spend their winters in Texas and their summers in Alaska . Kathy’s father and former husband served in the Alaskan legislature for around 30 years so Butch and Kathy know Alaska politics.

Eddie emailed Butch and asks Butch what the Wildmans think of Gov. Sarah Palin. Butch’s unedited email is attached below. Please read it and forward it to your friends. This is what the citizens of Alaska think of Sarah Palin!

Thanks, Gene Powell
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



.
-----Original Message-----
From: Wildman Lake & Cinder River Lodges [mailto:[email protected] ]
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 12:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Who is Sarah

Hi Eddie:

Fishing is good here at Wildman and I rarely have time for politics, but many of our friends are asking us “Who is Sarah Palin?” Of course, as Alaskans, Kathy and I are extremely proud of her. We just want to let you know that Sarah “Barracuda” Palin is a straight shooting, hard charging, get it done gal. She knows when to listen, how to analyze the facts and how to make a decision, then implement the plan. She doesn’t do a poll before jumping in with both feet like too many of the Washington types. She has little legislative experience because she has always held the EXECUTIVE position; in private life, as mayor of Anchorage ’s largest bedroom community or more recently as Governor of our State. She is a smart, attractive home grown Alaska girl with excellent moral and family values. She can see what needs to be done and does not hesitate to get it done.

One of our State’s major problems is that its Capital is in Juneau, 500 miles from the nearest road and 800 air miles from the population base which is Anchorage, Wasilla and Fairbanks. Our legislature and most of the State government is in Juneau and they ALL behave like a bunch of freshmen in a college town. It has been this way since Statehood in 1959. When Sarah moved to Juneau , so did accountability and responsibility When the oil revenue started flown and a barrel of North Slope Crude hit $23.00, these people began spending money like drunken sailors. You can only imagine what was happenings when oil hit $100.00 a barrel, about the time Sarah took command. My wife Kathy has first-hand experience with this fiasco, as her father and also her ex-husband were Alaska Legislators who served in Juneau as Senators, Senate President, or members of the State House for a combined period spanning nearly three decades.

About the time Sarah took the HELM as Governor of Alaska, about half of the State legislature was in the pocket of big oil companies or contractors doing big projects for Native Corporations around Alaska, all funded by State oil revenue. Alaska government was nothing but a good old boys club riding the perpetual wave of prosperity. This filtered down from the legislature, through the Department of Natural Resources, Department of Labor and even spilled in to the Public Safety who are supposed to “preserve and protect”.

When Sarah walked into the Governor’s Mansion, she promptly dismissed the State Trooper detachment assigned to Governor and had her and her husband’s gun case brought in from Wasilla. Then, she got rid of the former Governor’s STATE Jet and told legislators that there were no more free rides, they would have to fly Alaska Airlines, just like her and her family if they wanted to travel. Next came the nut cutting (the Barracuda part) the heads that rolled were too numerous to name, but when Sarah finished cleaning house, a number of our legislators ended up in jail for on corruption charges, or tendered their resignations along with numerous department heads and those who have been riding the gravy train for way too long, AND THEN SHE HAD LUNCH. By the end of the day, Sarah Palin had saved the people of Alaska millions and has not yet slowed down.

She has truly brought CHANGE to Juneau . I personally know several persons in the private sector in Alaska , that hold her in high esteem. She surrounds herself with smart people, many from my hometown of Anchorage , she listens to thembut makes her own decisions. Sarah Palin is a no B.S. politician. It is refreshing that there is such a thing anymore. You want to talk about CHANGE? You should see a before and after picture of the State government in Alaska . That’s CHANGE! Sarah will bring a number of things to the election. I am sure she will appeal many voters who my otherwise could have gone the other direction on election day. The conservative block will not be for Barack. We have their vote. We need what Sarah will bring, first to the election and second, what she will bring to Washington D.C. McCain has been advised well, Let’s just hope the American people can get the straight scoop on her in the weeks ahead. This is just the opinion of one Alaska Bush Pilot and Guide, who pays attention to national politics, watches the news and is deathly afraid of the direction our nation is headed. I guarantee that if Sarah gets a chance to dig her spurs into the flanks of the liberal Washington types, they will know that she is in the saddle.

Butch King

Pilot/Guide

Butch & Kathy King

Proprietors

Wildman Lake Lodge

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Ill take that as an SFL in agreement that McCain's speech wasn't very good...at least in comparison to Palin's.

Jeffrey Toobin on CNN says it was the worst speech by a nominee since Carter which I didnt hear obviously.

McCain's oratory has never done much for me. Not a knock on his leadership skills, its just that I don't find him very telegenic.

Of course, based on accounts I've read, I'm thinking Abe Lincoln might have had problems making a go of it in our TV age too.

[DaddyTorgo]

calling wasilla "anchorage's largest bedroom community" is stretching it - for one it's 43 miles away from anchorage (hardly a bedroom community), and for 2, calling it large is laughable. It's like saying I'm the smartest person in my office without saying that I'm the only person in my office.

also just a quick google - according to wikipedia the city of wasilla has 7025 people versus like 6920 for the next largest city (which is equidistant from anchorage). That's an extra 105 people. I took the train to work today and there were probably 100 people in my train-car.

Look at how many people live in your town, or god-forbid, your city. 7025 people is NOTHING. I mean seriously, there were 10,500 athletes staying in the Olympic Village in Beijing! It's a joke!

[Young Drachma]

Oprah isn't running a charity. She owns her show and can do what she wants and I presume she will. Sarah Barracuda isn't gonna be the death of the Oprah brand.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

FWIW...e-mail from a friend of mine in Arkansas who is a self-described libertarian. He unsuccessfully ran for Congress as an independent.

I have a real interesting email I will send along to you. It is from the assistant of a deceased leader of a tiny African nation, and she said she has large sums of money she needs someone to hold on to for her while she tries to locate the heir to the thrown.

Word is the heir is a brush pilot in Alaska somewhere.....

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Oprah isn't running a charity. She owns her show and can do what she wants and I presume she will. Sarah Barracuda isn't gonna be the death of the Oprah brand.

While that's certainly true, I would think that Oprah would want Palin on the show simply because she has a compelling story and is new to the national political scene.

I think Oprah is only shortchanging her audience if she doesn't ask Palin on since, it seems, many in her audience would like to see Palin on the show.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Interesting story being floated over at the Drudge Report. Oprah is balking at having Sarah Palin on her show, despite overwhelming audience requests to have her on the show. Oprah and the show's executive producer are big Obama backers, both from a voting and financial standpoint............

I call bullshit. The only quote is attributed to "a source", and according to McCain's own staff Palin isn't going to be doing interviews or press conferences.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Cringer

I have a real interesting email I will send along to you. It is from the assistant of a deceased leader of a tiny African nation, and she said she has large sums of money she needs someone to hold on to for her while she tries to locate the heir to the thrown.

Word is the heir is a brush pilot in Alaska somewhere.....

Thanks, but I've already gotten rich off that one!

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

calling wasilla "anchorage's largest bedroom community" is stretching it - for one it's 43 miles away from anchorage (hardly a bedroom community), and for 2, calling it large is laughable. It's like saying I'm the smartest person in my office without saying that I'm the only person in my office.

also just a quick google - according to wikipedia the city of wasilla has 7025 people versus like 6920 for the next largest city (which is equidistant from anchorage). That's an extra 105 people. I took the train to work today and there were probably 100 people in my train-car.

Look at how many people live in your town, or god-forbid, your city. 7025 people is NOTHING. I mean seriously, there were 10,500 athletes staying in the Olympic Village in Beijing! It's a joke!

Well, it is all about perspective. 7,000 is probably a lot of people for a town in Alaska.

And every city is different... metro Boston kind of ends past Marlborough, after which it seems like there is nothing out there. On the other hand, Metro NYC sprawls for miles and miles... some people even commute into the city from Western PA.

[ace1914]

Plain and simple, McCain's speech was terrible. The worst part is he's now trying to piggy-back on Obama's message of "change."

It seems like McCain is trying to say, "Vote for me. I'm not really a Republican."

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Sarah Barracuda isn't gonna be the death of the Oprah brand.

Nope, but if she manages to sincerely piss off even, say, 25% of the women in the country then she's a different property to her affiliates.

Oprah is a big deal because she posts big numbers which are quite profitable to the stations, something that bites into that puts her in a different position in the future (although as much money as she's made maybe she doesn't care about that).

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Look at how many people live in your town, or god-forbid, your city. 7025 people is NOTHING. I mean seriously, there were 10,500 athletes staying in the Olympic Village in Beijing! It's a joke!

It's a fair point in terms of her experience but the Democrats also have to remember that small towns ARE America, Republicans dominate there, and its why they win national elections.

2004 County-By-County Map



Obviously, Democrats get a lot of votes out of those more densley populated blue areas, but I think maps like this help explain why Obama can't pull away with this election even though it FEELS like he's way more popular than McCain. The media portrays the views of those cities.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Thanks, but I've already gotten rich off that one!

I have to ask this because, well I just need to know for sure....

Do you really believe that email is real?

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by molson

It's a fair point in terms of her experience but the Democrats also have to remember that small towns ARE America, Republicans dominate there, and its why they win national elections.

2004 County-By-County Map



Obviously, Democrats get a lot of votes out of those more densley populated blue areas, but I think maps like this help explain why Obama can't pull away with this election even though it FEELS like he's way more popular than McCain. The media portrays the views of those cities.

What does this map show? Presidential selections by county? There's no legend. Photoshop is a great tool, Molson.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Nope, but if she manages to sincerely piss off even, say, 25% of the women in the country then she's a different property to her affiliates.

Oprah is a big deal because she posts big numbers which are quite profitable to the stations, something that bites into that puts her in a different position in the future (although as much money as she's made maybe she doesn't care about that).

Oprah is damn near more well known than the president. Having or not having Palin on there will not matter with next year's TV ratings, no matter who is elected.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ace1914

Oprah is damn near more well known than the president. Having or not having Palin on there will not matter with next year's TV ratings, no matter who is elected.

Once again, more slowly this time.

I'm not talking about whether Palin is on the show. I'm talking about whether avoiding Palin could piss off enough current viewers to affect her ratings. Two completely different things.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by JAG

That's crazy talk, why...wait, what's that?

Yup, they got my money in that 10 million.

[molson]

Originally Posted by ace1914

What does this map show? Presidential selections by county? There's no legend. Photoshop is a great tool, Molson.

A great tool I'm not competent to use.

Yes, 2004 Presidential election results by county.

[SFL Cat]

Hillary must be having a cow right about now.

Palin Power: Fresh Face Now More Popular Than Obama, McCain

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Once again, more slowly this time.

I'm not talking about whether Palin is on the show. I'm talking about whether avoiding Palin could piss off enough current viewers to affect her ratings. Two completely different things.

And I'm saying "avoiding Palin" has no long term effects on Oprah. Hell, it has no short term effects on Oprah. Avoiding Palin is not going to effect Oprah's viewership.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Cringer

I have to ask this because, well I just need to know for sure....

Do you really believe that email is real?

Don't ask, don't tell....

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Yup, they got my money in that 10 million.

To be fair, it wasn't like people just jumped up and donated money after seeing Palin speak. The Obama campaign sent out a letter requesting donations to their supporters. That provoked the outpouring of donations, not the Palin speech though they'd certainly like people to think that was the reason.

[ace1914]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

To be fair, it wasn't like people just jumped up and donated money after seeing Palin speak. The Obama campaign sent out a letter requesting donations to their supporters. That provoked the outpouring of donations, not the Palin speech though they'd certainly like people to think that was the reason.

They send out emails everyday asking for donations.