Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[molson]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

As far as Sheamus killing Daniel Bryan, why couldn't he have killed R-Truth or any of the other half a dozen faces on the RAW roster who ya' know, wasn't a champion?

The truth is, there are far more people they've the dropped the ball with than they've succeeded with. John Morrison, Kofi Kingston, MVP, the entire Legacy breakup angle just to throw out a couple of examples. The main issue is that since there's no long-term booking, everybody outside of Cena and Orton on RAW basically get stop/start pushing.

I don't know that "monster heel killing water-treading midcarder" is as effective as "monster heel killing red-hot midcarder". Certainly, the former has been done a million times. And when they've done the former, and Sheamus has killed Evan Bourne, for example, the complaints are the same. Might as well up the ante and instead of pushing a guy like Bourne down from lower-midcard to nowhere, push Bryan down from upper-midcard to midcard with a still upward trajectory.

Morrison, Kingston, MVP, R-ruth, and Mark Henry have all had brushes with the main event in the last year. It was only one more step for any of them to a world title and/or ppv main event. But instead, the WWE chose to take that final step with Swagger, Punk, Sheamus, and Barrett instead. You can't take it with everyone.

I guess what I'm trying to understand though, is in the WWE vision of critics, how would things be different? Are you putting the world title on MVP? And every other midcarder? Who else exactly are you elevating to the main event, and who's spot do you take away or reduce to make that happen? How do you avoid start/stop pushes and at the same time keep things fresh when, unlike in the past, you're not able to bring in top, already over guys from other promotions?

[molson]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

OK, you can say Austin or UT did relatively few jobs, but The Rock makes Cena look like Hulk Hogan in 1986 as far as clean losses go. Hell, The Rock did a job for Shane Friggin' Helms.

That was part-time Hollywood heel rock, and it sure as hell wasn't clean (it was either Goldberg or Austin who destroyed Rock before Helms could get the win). How many times did full-time face Rock lose, clean or otherwise? I guarantee he had a far better W/L record than Cena. (but like Cena, I don't think Rock cared about wins and losses, so I think he at least created that template.)

[SirFozzie]

Rock was distracted by Austin on the ramp, IIRC.

[molson]

And I'm not saying the WWE is all good - I particularly hate the scripted promos and how so many of the wrestlers look the same (I miss the foreign guys and the fat guys). But in the limited areas of potential upward mobility and free mingling/interacting between wrestlers of various card classes, I think you have more of both in the current product than the WWE had at any time since maybe when Andre the Giant was teaming with S.D. Jones.

There was no attitude-era equivalent to CM Punk rising from ROH to WWE World Champion in 2 years, or Evan Bourne wrestling in a World Title Hell in the Cell match on PPV (even with 5 other guys in it). In the attitude era, the WWE would never touch the indy guys. (I've never actually seen "Reckless Youth" wrestle, but I read about him being the greatest thing since sliced bread about 15,000 times in 1997.)

It blows my mind that people can say that guys are being "held down" in modern WWE. This isn't 1998 WCW where Jericho/Benoit/Guerrero are trying gain a foothold in a main event still dominated by Hogan/Savage/Sting. (And I'm not sure Guerrero and Benoit were even main-event caliber talent until many years later. Jericho was ready and WCW blew that.) Orton is only 30 and Cena is only 33. I think they might actually be younger than some of those upstarts in the 90s that were being held down. Orton won his first world title when he was 23, I think. And when you look at a list of WWE World champions - it looks like anybody worth anything has been on top. Probably too many people.

[Mota]

Good conversations going on guys. I really love to talk wrestling like this.

A lot of the things I've said in this thread a year ago are probably the polar opposite these days with the WWE. There's a lot of young guys on the roster. They need to develop young guys. I wish they had done it sooner when they had a veteran roster that could help put them over, it is harder for them to get over on their own. But at least we're seeing guys like Daniel Bryan, Wade Barrett, Sheamus, etc.

[molson]

It's been a while since this thread was bumped, so what the hell.

I kind of enjoyed Piper's Pit on RAW last night - Piper got to be a supporting player in a main event angle and he delivered. I've been trying to put my finger on what makes Piper so damn superior on the mic compared to anyone in the WWE today, and if it's possible to teach guys to be more like this and less plastic as too many guys are today. He even seems to raise the game of everyone around him here - Cena and Wade Barrett seem to dive right in and make it work also. And it's cool because it's not one of these worked shoot angles that have poisoned wrestling the last decade, this is just classic scripted pro wrestling that would have worked in WCCW or Georgia in 1985, with Piper just basically trying to talk Cena out of a heel turn.

Piper from about 3:17 to 5:40 is the highlight:

[JonInMiddleGA]

Piper works because you believe he means it. Whatever he says, he puts a serious effort into making you believe it's real. He could turn to the camera & wink but if he returned to the gimmick a moment later, he'd bring the intensity that makes it feel real.

It's a gift, not everybody has it. At the same time, Piper has spent decades working at it. Without the work and the gift, the result just isn't the same.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

That's my fault. My point about the Rock taking clean losses and him doing a job at all to Helms was two different points. But, I will point out that after said job was done, the WWE did nothing with Helms despite the fact he'd just beat the one of the three biggest stars in WWE history.

But, on W/L records, this is from another board from a guy who's a stat's nerd.

Cena
2009 - 89%
2008 - 80%
2007 - 82%

The Rock (w/ heel years of his ME run thrown in just for kicks)
1998 - 38% (Last year of full heel run)
1999 - 57% (Was heel for about 1/3 of the year)
2000 - 65% (Face the whole time)
2001 - 74% (Face the whole time to my memory)

So, even in Rock's best year, he had more losses than Cena. s

As far as what I would do different, that'd take me rewriting the last five to ten years. My problem is that there is a lot of 'slotting' in the WWE. Meltzer and Alvarez talk about it all the time in no certain terms about how certain guys are slotted where they're at no matter what they do.

Yes, guys will get random TV main events, but then they'll be back jobbing the next week. Um, also, what World Title match are you talking about?

Yes, the WWE is more open to hiring indy guys, but that's only because there's nobody left to hire. Also, remember that Punk largely got over on his own with little help from the WWE at first. His first title reign was a disaster and it was only his feud with Hardy that solidified him as a main eventer.

On the other hand though, you have Low-Ki being squashed by Tyler Reks to get on the Smackdown Bragging Rights team despite the fact that Reks hadn't been on TV in months. I'm not saying Cena or Orton shouldn't be main eventers, but I forget the exact numbers, but in the past two years, they've fought each other something like 30 times on either TV or PPV.

I will counter Rock's record with the fact that he was wrestling in a better time frame. The WWE had Stone Cold and HHH to push as well along with other people. It just feels like with Cena they don't have as many guys they can rotate around and have run with the title for a period of time. It's like trying to compare an undefeated boxer who didn't really have any classic fighter to push him during his era. Oh, and the fact that Cena is a hardcore corporate guy doesn't hurt either.

[RainMaker]

I don't think the heels are as strong as they were back in the Rock's days. Sure they have a lot of them, and you can argue they dominate portions of the shows, but they aren't really strong heels. They never give the feeling they could win a match on their own without the help of others. At some point you need to have your heel look strong.

[RainMaker]

Does anyone have thoughts on what will happen on Sunday? While I'd love to see a Cena heel turn, I don't think the WWE has the balls to do it. He's just too adored by the kids and the face of the PG company. Too many t-shirts, hats, and other merchandise at stake. While Orton has been good, I don't think he can be the babyface of the organization.

So I'm trying to think of some way they can get out of this mess on Sunday. My theory is that somehow Wade cheats, Cena doesn't see it, and calls the match for him. Lets him look like he called the match down the middle, get out of Nexus, and keep his job. That would setup an Orton/Cena feud that can slowly build up toward Wrestlemania. It would split the face crowd in half and you'd have quite an atmosphere for that match. Babyface vs anti-Hero.

The other option is Cena calls it for Orton, everyone thinks he gets fired, and something dumb happens like Vince comes back and re-hires him on Monday. Would really be a slap in the face for people who bought Survivor Series, but the writing team seems to fuck up any good storyline they create.

[jbergey22]

I think there is going to be a heel turn creating an Undertaker vs Cena Wrestlemania Main Event. UT comes back from the dead and it is somehow blamed on Cena due to his involvement in Nexus.

[bulletsponge]

i would love to see a cena turn, but theres no way they have the balls, also theres no way there doing it with christmas around the corner, gotta sell those crappy cenation merchandise

[Mota]

Jim Ross makes everything feel better.

Of course, he actually tries to hype things, and bring out the positive aspects of wrestlers instead of Michael Cole who points out the defects in everything.

Who would you rather have as your top salesperson?

And doesn't the WWE realize that if Cole constantly tells you that Daniel Bryan is a nerd, NXT is the worst show ever, etc., maybe at some point the viewers may ask themselves why they bother watching a program when even the company can't get behind their own product?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Atlanta indy wrestler Chris Long aka Solid killed last night while working as a club bouncer. Apparently shot by three men he had escorted from the bar earlier in the night. He was best known as the sidekick to Marco Corleone (aka Mark Jindrak) in Lucha Libre USA on MTV2.

Pro wrestler shot, killed at DeKalb nightclub *| ajc.com

[SirFozzie]

No doubt, Barrett lost heat for losing against Orton last night. However, without saying word freaking one... he gained it all back, and tons more. Again, without a single word spoken.

[Atocep]

I like the Miz. Really happy to see him win tonight.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Two words: Juan Cena

I wonder if he'll be busting out the lucha moveset?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I like the Miz. Really happy to see him win tonight.

Same here.

And the glass ceiling shatters yet again.

[Toddzilla]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEESOME!

[Terps]

Also in a Kane/Paul Bearer/Edge storyline spoiler:

Spoiler

After the show, a segment was filmed outside Veteran's Memorial Arena that involved Paul Bearer attempting to escape Edge's capture by rolling away in his wheelchair. Edge got into a vehicle (a gold Lexus) and "ran down" the wheelchair, potentially killing off the Paul Bearer character.

I don't believe the scene was shown to the crowd inside the arena, as it took place after most people had already filed out, and it may have even been filmed for a show to be aired at some point after the one taped earlier in the evening.

Stupid.

[Comey]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

No doubt, Barrett lost heat for losing against Orton last night. However, without saying word freaking one... he gained it all back, and tons more. Again, without a single word spoken.

How? I'm curious.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by molson

And the glass ceiling shatters yet again.

There's another MTV Real World cast member, IIRC, who got elected this past November. Just kind of weird to think about. I can at least buy a reality star winning a wrestling belt, but being elected?

[JonInMiddleGA]

CARTHAGE - Jeff Hardy, a professional wrestler from Cameron who was arrested last year on drug charges, plans to plead guilty in court next month, according to the Moore County district attorney.

Moore County deputies raided Hardy's home in September 2009 after Fayetteville police received a tip about drug use there.

Lawmen found about 262 doses of Vicodin, a prescription painkiller, 180 Soma prescription pills, 55 milliliters of anabolic steroids, a residual amount of powder cocaine and drug paraphernalia. He faces several drug charges.

Hardy, 33, is the current world champion of Total Nonstop Action Wrestling on the Spike TV cable channel.


Moore DA: Pro wrestler to plead guilty - CharlotteObserver.com

[molson]

It's kind of sad that when I read an article that starts with something like, "Jeff Hardy, a professional wrestler from Cameron", I assume he's dead.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by molson

It's kind of sad that when I read an article that starts with something like, "Jeff Hardy, a professional wrestler from Cameron", I assume he's dead.

thats what i first thought too

[Maple Leafs]

I like the way we continually find out that guys like Hardy and Rey Mysteiro are using steroids, but Bautista and Cena are supposed to be clean.

[RainMaker]

I haven't been watching lately. I did see Miz win. But otherwise, can I assume Cena still beats everyone all the time?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I like the way we continually find out that guys like Hardy and Rey Mysteiro are using steroids, but Bautista and Cena are supposed to be clean.

Bautista has been caught. From reports of other wrestlers Cena is a workout warrior.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I haven't been watching lately. I did see Miz win. But otherwise, can I assume Cena still beats everyone all the time?

Nope, Otherwise he would still be the champ. He wins most of his matches but you kind of need to book a guy like Cena to win a lot.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I like the way we continually find out that guys like Hardy and Rey Mysteiro are using steroids, but Bautista and Cena are supposed to be clean.

Of those 4, Mysterio is the most obvious steroid abuser. He's toned it down a little now, but during that first main event push, he had that Chris Benoit, "WAY too much muscle for his body type" thing going on.

[thesloppy]

I met Batista randomly at an airport years ago, and he was remarkably wide, not fat of course, just like 5 people wide. Also: short. I just looked to see he's listed as 6' 6" and I swear he was shorter than me, and I'm barely six feet tall....'course that could just be an overly-creative memory.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Bautista has been caught. From reports of other wrestlers Cena is a workout warrior.

Maybe he's legit, but I would doubt it. It's just so hard to pull that off naturally. Especially for someone who is on the road all year.

[thesloppy]

The 'workout warrior' tag seem neither here nor there. Steroids don't particularly deter you from working out.

I'm glad to hear my memory of Batista's height was somewhat within reality, I shall alter the superior imaginary airport beatdown I gave him accordingly.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

From reports of other wrestlers Cena is a workout warrior.

Oh, OK. Former bodybuilder turned pro-wrestler who's twice the size of 90% of the roster even though they're all roiding like crazy. But he just lifts a lot of weights in hotel gyms on the road. Got it.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Oh, OK. Former bodybuilder turned pro-wrestler who's twice the size of 90% of the roster even though they're all roiding like crazy. But he just lifts a lot of weights in hotel gyms on the road. Got it.

With their drug policy in effect and how Cena is probably under the microscope more than most being he is their most popular wrestler Id guess hes probably legit. I cant say Ive heard any rumors or articles about Cena juicing. Its always easy to assume the worst but in this case there is no evidence that he is a juicer.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

With their drug policy in effect and how Cena is probably under the microscope more than most being he is their most popular wrestler Id guess hes probably legit. I cant say Ive heard any rumors or articles about Cena juicing. Its always easy to assume the worst but in this case there is no evidence that he is a juicer.

And the WWE's testing is known to be a complete joke. They allow a 10 to 1 testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio. Normal people are 1 to 1 and Olympic testing is 4 to 1. The WWE also allows its wrestlers to use steroids if they're prescribed by a doctor.

Benoit was a known user and never tested positive.

[molson]

Wrestling isn't a competitive sport so I don't think you have the same concerns about steroid use you would in MLB.

Obviously it's 90% PR, and 10% or so trying to weed out people who are going to drop dead soon (which is of course, bad for business). I think they're pretty serious about the latter too - some types/degrees of drug abuse are more dangerous than others. They didn't want to take a risk on Kurt Angle, who they basically considered to be on death watch, for example, or even Bobby Lashley.

I'm sure everybody in the company uses stuff that would show up on banned substance lists in other, competitive, sports, but I don't see any problem with that. Drug tests help them distance themselves from the true junkies like Jeff Hardy.

Cena or HHH dropping dead would be really bad for business. I'm sure those guys have their own strict workout/drug regime they believe in, but I also bet that both of those guys are a hell of a lot healthier than Eddie Guerrero. I think a big part of Cena's push is how "safe" he is. He doesn't get in trouble, he loves the spotlight and kids and everything that comes with being a main event face in the WWE, and however he keeps up his physique (which is FAR from ridiculous considering his body type and how he used to look in his bodybuilding days), he's reasonable and safe in his training regiment and probably free from addiction.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Really? Dave never got busted but I know he juiced just from personal conversations. There are certain guys who make so much money for them that they'll get their test results swept under the rug unless public behavior becomes erratic enough to force their hand.

Dave was busted twice however. His first one did get thrown under the rug when the policy was first enforced. Dave got busted the same time Umaga did.

[RainMaker]

It's just so hard to maintain that physique with that schedule. I mean he's not just on tour all year round, but he's their main media guy and is doing movies/TV shows all the time.

And it doesn't have to be some hardcore steroid. Could just be something HGH or something mild to help him through things. But guys with that kind of build usually need to be religuous with workouts and focused on their body many hours a day. Just don't know how he can do that with all the travel and gigs.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's just so hard to maintain that physique with that schedule. I mean he's not just on tour all year round, but he's their main media guy and is doing movies/TV shows all the time.

And it doesn't have to be some hardcore steroid. Could just be something HGH or something mild to help him through things. But guys with that kind of build usually need to be religuous with workouts and focused on their body many hours a day. Just don't know how he can do that with all the travel and gigs.

Just call him the Albert Pujols of the wrestling business As far as I know their isnt a lot of jealousy towards him in the lockerroom and Im sure a lot of it has to do with his work ethic. I've read a lot of different articles about he is all about the WWE and will basically do everything they ask. He might just be one of them rare personalities we find in athletes/entertainers these days where he is still willing to work despite being on top.

I think its a reason the Cena hate from internet forums has dropped in the past 2-3 years as well. It went from I hate Cena and his Golberg push to well hes still not great but maybe he deserves what he gets.

[RainMaker]

Yeah, I've always liked Cena as a person. Seems like a real good guy who works hard and does the extras. His charity work is remarkable and I root for his success career wise.

I think the hate is mainly from the way he is booked which is pretty crappy.

[Terps]

Reported by the Torch:

The Main event was a steel cage match between John Cena and Wade Barrett. A back and forth match with Wade Barrett trying to get out and Cena stopping him. After about 20 minutes, Wade gets Cena in the Wasteland and puts Cena on the mat. Everything seemed to stop. The trainers came to the ring and were talking to both Wade and John. All the sudden John throws a Lebell Lock type of hold (it was not the STF) and Wade tapped out. Wade left the ring rather quickly.

The announcer came out and brought the mic to John. John said “I got a little beat up tonight and if I need to take some time off I will but I will not be carried from the ring.” The injury appeared to be to one of his legs. He wasn’t putting any weight on it. We couldn’t tell if was a hip injury, or something to do with his leg.

Can't say I'd be sad to see him off of my TV for an extended amount of time... but that just fucks up the angle with him/Punk/Nexus if it's anything serious.

[Mota]

I agree. Too bad that he's injured but he should be nowhere near TV after that angle. MAYBE making his first run-in now.

I wouldn't doubt if CM Punk gets a lot of the cheers from the crowd, when he beat up on Cena on Raw this week there was a good CM Punk chant going on.

[Toddzilla]

How do you injure a leg on a Wasteland?

[Neon_Chaos]

Would it be wrong for me to hope for a Cena-free Wrestlemania?

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Would it be wrong for me to hope for a Cena-free Wrestlemania?

As much as I'd love it, I don't know what WWE is going to do for WM. Outside of Brock miraculously be able to partake in WM, there is nothing out there that screams WM Headliner besides Taker/Cena.

[molson]

They're building towards Cena/Punk at Mania, and it's up in the air whether 'Taker is ready by then.

Punk will get a ton of cheers against Cena, but that's fine and the WWE won't alter booking to avoid that. One of Cena's best runs came when he was booked as a face but the fans treated him as a heel.

I can kind of get why fans still living in 1997 don't like Cena as the main star of a company, but I'm not sure who would be better in that role right now. And I know I've beat it to death here - he is not being booked as a dominant champion and everyone and their mother has has had a world title run at this point. When was the last time Cena even won a 1-on-1 PPV match - Wrestlemania? (I think it was a couple of wins v. Batista, who was leaving the company).

I'm very curious who people think should be given a main event run, but haven't got it because they're being "held down". The knock used to be that Vince only likes "hosses", and "guys he created", and now the belt and the PPV main events have been given to clear non-hosses, and even indy-darlings Vince didn't create. And they're still booking Bryan Danielson, who gets zero crowd reaction, as a strong U.S. Champion/submission machine. (Right, they don't cheer Danielson because Sheamus beat him up once 3 months ago, I forgot that)

OK, that concludes my semi-monthly rant. The product is looking for a younger audience these days and that definitely isn't for everyone, but the cliched paint-by-numbers criticisms don't work anymore, come up with something else.