Big 10 Expansion Thread -Big Ten ready for a playoff .. finally?

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Dola

The other remote possibility is Temple rejoining in football and staying in the MAC for all other sports and Villanova moving up to give them their 10 football teams. It wouldn't move the meter, but...it'd shore things up a bit in terms of membership and tie up a core market for the league I guess.

Just seems remote when you can dangle an AQ (and keep it) to a riser like TCU that you wouldn't take the chance to snap them up even if it means screwing up the balance of your league a bit.

Temple is MAC in football only. They are in the Atlantic 10 in all other sports.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I would put it about 90% that the two teams will come from Villanova, TCU, and UCF.

I've heard ECU has a shot at one of the 2 spots.

I think TCU is a lock at this point. They want an invite and from a standpoint of improving Big East football it just makes sense. I'll be surprised if they're not in the Big East soon.

After that ECU and UCF make the most sense. Both have been pouring money into the athletic programs and both are getting really good fan support this season. I just don't see how Villanova compares to those two.

[Ksyrup]

Ivan Maisel:

The Big East Conference said Tuesday that it wants to add two football teams. I don’t understand the interest in TCU. Horned Frog football under Gary Patterson has been outstanding. But you don’t invite a football coach. You invite a program. TCU is a long way away. It adds nothing in the other sports. Villanova, already a Big East member, has a standing invitation to join the football league. UCF, a young, vibrant university, would give the league another outpost in Florida and create a natural rivalry with USF.

[wade moore]

There's a lot of talk about this on the CAA (the FCS conference Villanova currently belongs to) message board.

Everyone seems pretty mixed on what they think will happen. VU people really don't come on that board, so it's the rest of us talking about it.

In the end, I think if you're VU you have serious concerns about the cost of this. Their attendance for a defending champion FCS team got it's highest number last weekend - 6k. When W&M played them last year in the game to make the finals, there were almost as many W&M fans (probably about 2500) as VU fans.

You could make the "well, more people will want them to play x, y, and z" argument - but really.. how did Temple do? I'm just not sure if a selective private school with about 6,000 undergrads in the Philly area can succeed at FBS football.

[Logan]

wade, I'd put the odds at somewhere between 0.0% and 0.1%. It's hard enough to be successful at FBS on the field and monetarily when everyone associated with the program is on board, let alone Nova's situation.

[Swaggs]

I haven't heard anything concrete, but word seems to be trickling out that Villanova will not move up. I think the only reason I would want them (over several of the named candidates) would be if the conference was splitting and the football schools were going to 12-teams, so we could keep their basketball program and a team in Philadelphia.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I've heard ECU has a shot at one of the 2 spots.

I think TCU is a lock at this point. They want an invite and from a standpoint of improving Big East football it just makes sense. I'll be surprised if they're not in the Big East soon.

After that ECU and UCF make the most sense. Both have been pouring money into the athletic programs and both are getting really good fan support this season. I just don't see how Villanova compares to those two.

I think you may be right, the more I think about it. I think ECU would definitely accept a football-only invite (knowing that it has lead to full membership in the past for schools like WVU, Rutgers, and VPI). And, it might actually make more sense (travel and $$$-wise) for both TCU and the Big East, if they accepted a football-only invite right now.

I don't like the schools not becoming full members, but I think that is what the Big East is looking for first.

[MylesKnight]

Would love to see the Knights get into the Big East, but I have this feeling we are going to end up the first one left out when all is said and done. One of these days....

[Abe Sargent]

I think it's TCU and UCF at the end of the search. TCU as a marriage of convenience, and UCF for obvious reasons (best choice to move up of those available).

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Ivan Maisel:

I think Ivan misses some valid points. First of all, TCU has finished in the top 25 seven times in the 2000's and will likely have their 8th this season. That's not insignificant. Secondly, by being in a BCS conference, they lose the major reason for recruits to not go there - no automatic BCS bowl. They give the school momentum to keep it up. I think it's a good fit need wise. Now, in terms of culture of the school and geography, of course not. Everybody would know its likely to be a temporary solution to needs on both sides. TCU needs an auto bid, and we need a big name school right now with our majors losing badly this season.

[Pumpy Tudors]

By the way, I take back my snarky comments from early in the thread. The insiders were right.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

The insiders were right.

They always are. At least when what they say ends up on publically viewable message boards. (I know that's where I put all my insider information).

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Temple is MAC in football only. They are in the Atlantic 10 in all other sports.

Yeah, I remembered this last night and read about it after the fact. My bad. They're a last resort, if nothing else...but preferably to integrating an entirely new school into the league that doesn't offer anything besides a TCU or something.

With the 18-game conference schedule, adding two more schools to the basketball school would be unwieldy, but at least not impossible. It'll be interesting to see what they do

If nothing else, the Big Ten and Pac 10 proved that whatever moves people bandy about when it all settles in the end the moves don't end up being nearly as significant as they talk about over the hot stove. I've seen a lot of the Seton Hall negative talk that people discuss here due also to that school cutting some Olympic sports that'd been successful previously, but I just can't see Providence kicking out a charter member of the league even if it makes sense for the bottom line.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Everyone seems pretty mixed on what they think will happen. VU people really don't come on that board,

... or to the games. I know each situation is slightly different, but school size, alumni base, and the public/private difference* effectively dictate that UConn=UMass and Villanova=Temple. Not that UMass will, or even deserves to, get an invite, but Villanova really can't make it work at the BCS football level. It's a huge risk/gamble for a large public university to make the leap - it would be a horrible idea for any small private one (especially in the apathetic for college sports urban northeast, and a highly fractured fanbase (big 5) even among those in the city who do follow college sports.)

[timmynausea]

Just saw this on the WVU board regarding Big East expansion, and thought it was interesting.

Posted by a moderator on the Houston Scout board:

I suppose I can post this now since this is all about to come out. Truth is I had heard from my source in Providence last week that BE expansion to 12 and 20 was, to put it in his words, "A done deal" and UH was definately going to get an invite. I didn't post this from obvious reasons, because I wasn;t ready to own the rumor, and I've been around long enough to know that NOTHING is a "done deal".

The BE Commish went into the meeting with the support of 9 of 16 (with two BB only members, neither of which was Villanova) BE members to go to a 12-20 format, and all indication was that he and the FB Commish were willing to play hardball to push this thru. Key to making this happen was that the 20 team BB format would have included an auto-bid to the NCAA for each 10 team division, that is what swayed the two BB only members to go on-board. Appearently this had all been worked out.....

The reason they were doing this was because TCU had been playing hard ball and was insisting on full membership. Just before the meeting word had come in that TCU would likely entertain a FB only membership, but would prefer that the BE extend an invitation for full membership, which they will likely decline, for cost reasons. This after the BE started playing a little hard ball back saying that if TCU was going to insist that they be extended full membership that they would just go ahead and invite UCF, who has already agreed to this.

In the meeting, Nova pleaded it's case and appearently got some sympathy from the current BE members. They stated that they are NOT ready to jump now, and that it would cost them too much to jump next year. They re-affirmed their commitment to go to BCS, but they would not be ready for 2-3 years.

So the BE members decided to go ahead with expanison to 10 teams, with a plan to go to 12 when Nova is ready to jump. By then they will have worked out the details of a potenial 20 team BB confernce... and push this forward and will worry about it later. The BB only members LOVE this compromise, and the FB only members are 'satisfied'.

So will it be TCU and UCF?..... the smart money says yes. But UH does have some support form BE FB only members and they are the programs that you might expect (namely WVU and USF), and this is not a 'done deal'. They still need to consider the ramifications of any new media deal that they can negociate. Access to recuiting markets is a factor, but many BE teams look at Florida as a pretty good market as well, adding another team in Florida has some value as well as adding another team in Texas. If the BE believes that it can negociate a favorable media deal by coming into Houston, then our stock goes up. We'll just have to see, regardless the BE will be expanding to 12 teams in a couple of years and we would likely be the top target when this happens.

[Matthean]

After this season, it might be a decent time to knock on ND's door again. I think the money a conference can swing ND's way is going to become too great at some point. Heck, have NBC and the The Big East Network partner up and run with it.

[BishopMVP]

If ND ever goes to a conference (and I doubt they will unless the whole thing goes 4 16-team mega-conferences - and 63 teams are willing to play hardball) it's the Big 10. More $, more rivals, better geographic fit, a much larger presence in the market with the most ND alums/fans (Chicago) a surprisingly close to equal one in the #2 market (New York), at least when it comes to college football, and probably a greater share in Boston as well since BC left.

I wouldn't have much of a problem with playing Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, UConn (and potentially UCF/Houston) every year, but the alumni base would go crazy.

[Izulde]

Stop raiding the Mountain West of its good teams, you fuckers.

[RendeR]

Mountain what?



yeah, thats what I thought.

[Swaggs]

The more that I read, the more I think that this is going to be a two-phase plan for the Big East to first move to 10 and then to 12 (when/if Villanova is ready). I think it will likely be TCU and UCF, as football only, in 2012 and then Villanova and Houston in 2014 (giving Villanova a chance to get their house in order). That gives the Big East a 12/19 conference, so the non-basketball teams may get thrown a bone with a team like St. Louis or Butler or one of the Virginia schools.

The NY Times writer that broke the original story mentioned that Villanova is leaning towards making the move up with the promise that, if they do, Temple will never be allowed back in and that ECU and Memphis are "not viewed favorably" by the Big East.

I think this could set things up pretty nicely for the Big East. They could do something like this with each team having a travel partner/geographic rival:

East:
WVU - Pitt
UConn - Syracuse
Rutgers - Villanova or Temple

West:
Cincy - Louisville
USF - UCF
Houston - TCU

I think that keeps the more traditional Big East schools together pretty well and is fairly well balanced for competition. The only bad thing is does not give the "East" schools a trip into Florida or Texas as frequently, so maybe they could split the rivals up so that each side has a Texas and Florida school.

In any case, it isn't a great situation, but I think it would be an improvement on what we have now (plus it will finally give the football schools the voting majority).

[bhlloy]

That looks like a very solid conference to me, and if they can add a Butler or a St. Louis, they stay an absolute basketball powerhouse. That's got to be close to a best case scenario for the BE.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Matthean

After this season, it might be a decent time to knock on ND's door again. I think the money a conference can swing ND's way is going to become too great at some point. Heck, have NBC and the The Big East Network partner up and run with it.

Heh.

Big East-Notre Dame football marriage makes BCS sense - Andy Staples - SI.com

[Chubby]

BE should force NDs hand. Either ND and TCU or boot ND and add TCU, UCF and Hou

[molson]

Ya, really - does non-football ND have any value to the Big East? With every expansion, they're less and less relevant.

Not that I think some kind of leverage play would make the join up full time in a million years. Might as well plan for the future. And Notre Dame is not a part of that future.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by molson

Ya, really - does non-football ND have any value to the Big East? With every expansion, they're less and less relevant.

Not that I think some kind of leverage play would make the join up full time in a million years. Might as well plan for the future. And Notre Dame is not a part of that future.

This. I wouldn't expect ND to join fullbore but as you said, their value as everything but FB is nothing and if they don't want in for FB then get out IMO.

[Lathum]

I would imagine ND adds academic value. No?

[bronconick]

How is the Big East in any sort of position to "force ND's hand"?

ND's reaction would probably be one of two

1. Laugh and push for a football/non football division in the Big East which is way overdue. The majority of the non-football schools are Catholic as well and 19-20 teams in a "conference" with an 18 game schedule is idiocy.

2. Laugh and join the Atlantic 10 for basketball and Olympic sports where a number of schools are Catholic.

[molson]

Originally Posted by bronconick

How is the Big East in any sort of position to "force ND's hand"?

ND's reaction would probably be one of two

1. Laugh and push for a football/non football division in the Big East which is way overdue. The majority of the non-football schools are Catholic as well and 19-20 teams in a "conference" with an 18 game schedule is idiocy.

2. Laugh and join the Atlantic 10 for basketball and Olympic sports where a number of schools are Catholic.

Either would be fine. It's not like they're contributing anything.

It's really not about the "forcing anyone's hands" thing, it's more about planning for the future and knowing which programs are actually going to be around.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by bronconick

How is the Big East in any sort of position to "force ND's hand"?

ND's reaction would probably be one of two

1. Laugh and push for a football/non football division in the Big East which is way overdue. The majority of the non-football schools are Catholic as well and 19-20 teams in a "conference" with an 18 game schedule is idiocy.

2. Laugh and join the Atlantic 10 for basketball and Olympic sports where a number of schools are Catholic.

If ND is out, the voting power rests with the football schools.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I would imagine ND adds academic value. No?

In theory they could, but I don't know how much of a consideration this is for the conference. The Big East schools don't have academic relationships like the Big 10 does. After the original basketball program association, it's kind of random mix-match of eastern based schools that didn't have anywhere else to go. It's not strong conference at all, academically. Notre Dame would help that obviously, but I've never seen any evidence that that's anything they care about.

[Abe Sargent]

If only the Big East hadn't voted to reject Penn State's application...

[molson]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

If only the Big East hadn't voted to reject Penn State's application...

That was before Big East football even existed.

[Matthean]

I think the big thing is how much leverage does ND have if they continue to struggle? I still think the Big East could sit down with ND and NBC and see if they can hammer out something. Let NBC show ND home games and then create a Big East channel that can show ND away games as well along with other Big East games.

[Swaggs]

Kicking Notre Dame out would actually hurt the conference in a couple of different ways. One, the Big East would certainly not have had access to the Gator or Sun Bowls (the past few years) or the Champs Sports Bowl (currently), which both serve/served as their top non-BCS bowl without Notre Dame. Second, Notre Dame has a seat at the BCS table and has been a voice in favor of keeping the Big East there. They have also agreed to play a handful of Big East conference teams per year.

In addition, they have a very strong all-around athletic department.

As long as they are an independent in football and the Big East has non-football playing teams in the conference, there is no good reason to kick them out.

It is easy to blame all of the Big East's problems on them (and folks do, from time to time), but the conference's biggest problem is that the teams, for the most part, are more urban and not state flagships (aside from Rutgers, WVU, and UConn) and do not have the huge, ravenous fan bases that most of the other conferences have. So, while the markets are generally very good, the saturation within them is not and the fan bases have a lot more options for their entertainment dollars, so they are not as loyal during down times.

If the Big East were to give Notre Dame an ultimatum, Notre Dame would probably take it and would probably find a similar home, the next day, in the ACC or Big Twelve.

[Swaggs]

The Big East has offered to let Notre Dame keep its contract with Notre Dame (for all home games to be televised) and, reportedly, has offered to let them play fewer conference games, but Notre Dame wants to keep its independence.

Again, I'm sure if NBC let the deal lapse, Fox or ESPN (or someone else) would make a similar offer. It isn't fair, but it is what it is.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I would imagine ND adds academic value. No?

They're also Catholic, spend money on (and have success in) Olympic sports (plus lacrosse), and have actually improved into a very good basketball program the past few years (especially if you factor in women's.)

People have a complex about ND and trying to take away their independence when it comes to football because they hate the implied superiority/arrogance it represents, but the rest of the university is still quite a catch - the only thing missing is a large local media market, but the national fanbase makes up for it.

As far as an additional Catholic/non-football school goes, why go St. Louis, or particularly Butler? Cincinnati might have a problem with Xavier, but Dayton still seems to make more sense than Butler.

[Swaggs]

ESPN has published a copy of the Big East's invitation to its new schools:

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

The Texas AD, errrrrr, Chip at Orangebloods.com is reporting that ESPN offered UT $12M for rights to a Longhorn TV network.

Orangebloods.com - Texas' Longhorn Network to cash in thanks to ESPN

[MrBug708]

Your bitterness is not very thinly veiled

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Your bitterness is not very thinly veiled

Why would there be bitterness? Obviously, Chip's a running joke with his direct line to Dodds. That's pretty clear. It's just funny at this point.

In regards to the Texas deal, it could end up being a big positive for the conference both for existing members and recruiting new members. The other conferences are forcing their members to join the conference network with no option for individual networks. If the Big 12 gets a big deal as is expected in April with the option still available for member institutions to pursue their own deals, it opens the door for a school like Notre Dame to join the conference AND keep their NBC deal intact. Let's be honest, this is all about money. Giving members this option opens up huge revenue streams not previously available in most conferences.

Now, with that said, I don't believe that this kind of deal is good for college sports. I still am quite sure that these initial money grabs will lead to the mega-conferences in the near future. Schools will do anything to avoid being left out.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Why would there be bitterness? Obviously, Chip's a running joke with his direct line to Dodds. That's pretty clear. It's just funny at this point.

Its pretty clear that Chip is just a mouthpiece for Dodds, but I'm not sure why that makes him a running joke. Realize where the slant is coming from, but clearly Chip had/has the best possible source during these backroom wheelings and dealings.

[Ksyrup]

Sources: Three teams to join WAC

Denver University, Texas-San Antonio and Texas State will join the WAC in 2012-13 to offset the departures of Boise State, Fresno State and Nevada to the Mountain West, multiple sources told ESPN.com.

UTSA, which still needs official approval from the board of regents, and Texas State will join in all sports. Denver will join for all sports except for football, since the Pioneers don't play at the FBS level.

The WAC will have eight football members, nine for men's and women's basketball. The WAC would have had six members in 2012-13 if nothing had been done with Hawaii, Louisiana Tech, Idaho, New Mexico State, Utah State and San Jose State.

An announcement is expected from the WAC on Thursday.

Montana could also join the WAC in all sports, especially if the Grizzlies decide to bump up from FCS to FBS in football. Montana, a FCS power, is expected to make a decision in the next few weeks. If the Grizzlies decide against the move then Seattle would likely step in with all sports except football.

The WAC's perfect scenario, according to multiple sources, is to get to nine football schools, including Montana and 10 basketball schools.

UTSA will start its football program as an FCS Independent in 2011. UTSA won't be in the Southland Conference in football that season. UTSA is then expected to make the jump to FBS football in 2012. UTSA will play in the Alamo Dome, home to the Alamo Bowl.

Texas State and UTSA will leave the Southland Conference and pay an estimated $250,000 per school exit fee. Denver, which has been in the Sun Belt since 1999-2000, won't have a penalty for leaving, according to sources.

The WAC's automatic berth to the NCAA tournament wasn't in jeopardy since the league had until 2014 to get to seven members.

The WAC was prepared to add BYU to its membership for all sports but football in late August before the MWC invited Fresno State and Nevada to block the move. BYU went independent in football but then chose to put the rest of its sports in the WCC.

Fresno State and Nevada wanted to leave the WAC for next season but struck a deal to stay until June 30, 2012, in exchange for paying a lower exit fee of $900,000 per school.

[Young Drachma]

Very good move for DU, as the Sun Belt was always a bad fit for them.

[Abe Sargent]

No Montana:

Montana Grizzlies will remain in FCS, Big Sky Conference - ESPN

[Buccaneer]

In high school, I remember the WAC consisted of Arizona State, Arizona, BYU and most of the current MWC. Now they are going to have teams I don't think a lot of people have heard of.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

No Montana:

Montana Grizzlies will remain in FCS, Big Sky Conference - ESPN

Not too surprised. No way the WAC wanted Montana State too and I guess the idea of being a doormat the highest level in football, rather than staying in an established league and remaining a power ended up being the difference maker.

I can't say I blame them, because unless they'd be the next Boise State, it seems like the upside wasn't there. I did want to see them go up because it'd have been a potential future rival for Wyoming football, but..these days they'd probably beat us anyway.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

In high school, I remember the WAC consisted of Arizona State, Arizona, BYU and most of the current MWC. Now they are going to have teams I don't think a lot of people have heard of.

But on the flip side, they've put themselves into bigger markets with Denver -- where the conference headquarters are -- San Antonio and more than likely with Montana saying no, Seattle.

It's not going to make the league a draw, but...I think they've made smart moves with who they got in the end. UTSA was always angling to go to FBS, which if you're going to be an upstart program in a market that was hosting a few NFL games a few years and hire a coach with a national championship, seems like the smartest idea to just head for the big leagues even if you're not going to be very good.

Texas State is going along for the ride and this move for DU was well overdue for a sports program that's still going to be ignored locally save for hockey, but...at least now if they continue to improve and make a tournament or something one of these years, it'll move the meter in a way that the Sun Belt never did. I'd never have gone to a DU game when they were playing Sun Belt teams, but would certainly consider it with the WAC, because the teams are at least regionally more relevant.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Not too surprised. No way the WAC wanted Montana State too and I guess the idea of being a doormat the highest level in football, rather than staying in an established league and remaining a power ended up being the difference maker.

I don't think that was it - would they really be a doormat compared to the new WAC teams? I think it was the departure of the better teams to the MWC. It may still be the WAC, but it became a lot less nationally relevant at least for the next decade. (I also posted a very long-winded letter from the Montana AD prior to this decision in the FCS thread.)

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I don't think that was it - would they really be a doormat compared to the new WAC teams? I think it was the departure of the better teams to the MWC. It may still be the WAC, but it became a lot less nationally relevant at least for the next decade. (I also posted a very long-winded letter from the Montana AD prior to this decision in the FCS thread.)

No, they'd have been a coup compared to the new ones. But true that the exodus of the top half of the league probably influenced their decision rather than joining a league with Boise State. Fair enough, but surely money played a part too. Better to keep selling out games and contending for national titles where you are, versus the money grab of the FBS with no long term guarantees.

I feel like Villanova will ultimately make a similar choice in the end, too.

(What did your letter say?)

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

No, they'd have been a coup compared to the new ones. But true that the exodus of the top half of the league probably influenced their decision rather than joining a league with Boise State. Fair enough, but surely money played a part too. Better to keep selling out games and contending for national titles where you are, versus the money grab of the FBS with no long term guarantees.

I feel like Villanova will ultimately make a similar choice in the end, too.

(What did your letter say?)

Laid out their revenue streams and everything else - Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - 2010 FCS (I-AA) Football Thread