POTUS 2024 - Harris vs Trump - General Election Discussion

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Outside of some social issues, what issues is there a wide gap on? They are nearly identical in terms of economic and foreign policy.

There's a reason neither campaign is really touting policy.

Just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true. We've already covered some of the domestic policy differences, but in foreign policy the two giants are support for Ukraine and NATO. Again, this isn't about which one is correct, but you can't say that both parties support the same policies.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I saw a poll that puts Harris up by 8 in NE-2. That severely limits Trump's electoral path. It requires him (at minimum) to win one of the three rust belt states (WI, MI, PA).

There's also a poll today that puts Harris up +5 in ME-2. Trump won ME-2 in 2020 by 8 points. I don't believe Harris will win ME-2, but ME-2 is literally made up heavily of the type of people who profess to be Trump's base. It being close in any poll is a good sign for Harris.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Outside of some social issues, what issues is there a wide gap on? They are nearly identical in terms of economic and foreign policy.

FTC appointments, creation vs. (attempted) abolition of the CFPB, the Lily Leadbetter Act, etc....

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true. We've already covered some of the domestic policy differences, but in foreign policy the two giants are support for Ukraine and NATO. Again, this isn't about which one is correct, but you can't say that both parties support the same policies.

Yeah, RM, you need to stop this cycle of 1) say something, 2) be shown it's false with examples, 3) wait a bit, 4) say the same thing again.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true. We've already covered some of the domestic policy differences, but in foreign policy the two giants are support for Ukraine and NATO. Again, this isn't about which one is correct, but you can't say that both parties support the same policies.

Both parties overwhelmingly support NATO and both parties have voted to send enormous sums of money to Ukraine.

[JPhillips]

But the guys leading the party say they will cut off Ukraine and exit NATO as well as refuse to defend Taiwan if attacked.

These aren't the same policies.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

FTC appointments, creation vs. (attempted) abolition of the CFPB, the Lily Leadbetter Act, etc....

So we have a disagreement over the statute of limitations on equal pay complaints and an agency run by a McKinsey associate that doesn't do a whole lot but say "we're looking into it". I think the fact neither candidate has even brought up these issues tells you how little people give a shit about them and their differences.

As I said, "nearly identical". I'm sure there is some squabbling over what rube gets put on the FTC to have their ideas shot down by the courts, but there is broad agreement over most of our economic policy in this country.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But the guys leading the party say they will cut off Ukraine and exit NATO as well as refuse to defend Taiwan if attacked.

These aren't the same policies.

Talk is cheap. Actions matter. Trump was President for 4 years and we know what he did.

If you truly believe that Trump and the Republicans are going to cut defense and end handouts to defense contractors, I don't know what to tell you. That would be a historic reversal of everything the party has stood for for the past few decades (and what they did when he was President).

[thesloppy]

It's just nice to feel like the Dems are finally playing offense, for seemingly the first time in 50 years.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Talk is cheap. Actions matter. Trump was President for 4 years and we know what he did.

If you truly believe that Trump and the Republicans are going to cut defense and end handouts to defense contractors, I don't know what to tell you. That would be a historic reversal of everything the party has stood for for the past few decades (and what they did when he was President).

I'm pretty sure the NATO leaders and Ukraine leadership disagree with you. NATO leadership have already dealt with Trump and Ukraine can read Trump's words just as well as anyone else.

No one said anything about cutting defense, I agree that won't happen. But defense monies will be reallocated from NATO and Ukraine to something else. Maybe build some more naval ships, maybe fund more Space Force etc. I'm actually okay if we let NATO fund their own defense, Trump was right that we've been taken as suckers re: 2% of GDP. And it's not as if NATO will materially come help us/Taiwan if the worst happens so I rather move NATO money to Asia.

I'd toss in North Korea and Philippines as 2 additional different tracks that Joe vs Trump have taken. Joe is negative towards China just as Trump was, but Joe cares more about Asia security than Trump does. NK will be NK, but Philippines (which is BTW a functioning democracy) is strategic for the US in the the region.

[Vegas Vic]

This is the heart of Trumpism and MAGA. Making fun of a 17 year old special needs kid who is proud of his father.

Talk about weird ...https://t.co/V0Ov4csFht

— Ann Coulter (@AnnCoulter) August 22, 2024

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

This is the heart of Trumpism and MAGA. Making fun of a 17 year old special needs kid who is proud of his father.

Love the responses. Wonder how she will respond, if at all.

[thesloppy]

Tweet is gone already. How brave.

[albionmoonlight]

Saw this quote. Definitely worth remembering for those of us who live in this thread:

"People who follow politics closely constantly impute to others their own level of political knowledge. In reality, if you follow politics closely, you're a massive outlier. It's hard for you to even begin to fathom the level of political indifference of the median American adult."

[thesloppy]

We have talked in here about how hard it is for more members of more traditional cults to break out of the cycle until something bad effects them personally, and it sure seems like the MAGA leaders are doing their best to make unforced, personal attacks against significant parts of their base.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

We have talked in here about how hard it is for more members of more traditional cults to break out of the cycle until something bad effects them personally, and it sure seems like the MAGA leaders are doing their best to make unforced, personal attacks against significant parts of their base.

I think that when you spend all of your time in the online MAGA world and you get all of your negative and positive feedback from them, it really does change you.

Like I suspect that Ann Coulter spends most of her time in places where "HA! Look at that special needs kid! What a stupid loser!" gets you lots of likes and kudos. And when she ventures into the real world, it's like a shock.

The real question is whether any of this is penetrating to the ultra-low-information voters who will decide our fate.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

"People who follow politics closely constantly impute to others their own level of political knowledge. In reality, if you follow politics closely, you're a massive outlier. It's hard for you to even begin to fathom the level of political indifference of the median American adult."

This tracks. That being said, these days feel unique, because it seems like there is a lot of folks with little political knowledge, but lots of political passion. Bearing that out to some degree, the 2020 presidential election had the highest percentage of turnout in the last 50 years.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

This is the heart of Trumpism and MAGA. Making fun of a 17 year old special needs kid who is proud of his father.

Talk about weird ...https://t.co/V0Ov4csFht

— Ann Coulter (@AnnCoulter) August 22, 2024

She deleted it but man, she is a horrible human as are those defending her.

Ann, you’re a fucking monster. pic.twitter.com/8xJZZwj3PD

— Ben Wexler (@mrbenwexler) August 22, 2024

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

This is the heart of Trumpism and MAGA. Making fun of a 17 year old special needs kid who is proud of his father.

Talk about weird ...Tim Walz's 17-year-old son breaks down in tears at father's DNC speech - Politics - News - Daily Express US
— Ann Coulter (@AnnCoulter) August 22, 2024

I don't know how reliable this news site is but they are reporting that Ukraine was able to hack into Russian State TV and show a video of what Putin has done to Ukraine and vice versa. Also reported that Putin had a heart attack on Sunday morning.

[Vegas Vic]

Whoever is in charge of scheduling at the DNC had better make damned sure that Kamala gets on stage at the designated time in prime time tonight. If they start running behind schedule *again*, then yank some of the “B” list politicians and/or entertainers. You sure as hell don’t want her speaking at close to midnight EDT like Walz did last night.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Whoever is in charge of scheduling at the DNC had better make damned sure that Kamala gets on stage at the designated time in prime time tonight. If they start running behind schedule *again*, then yank some of the “B” list politicians and/or entertainers. You sure as hell don’t want her speaking at close to midnight EDT like Walz did last night.

Yeah, she needs to be on 10 sharp

[Ksyrup]

In the age of 24 hour news cycles and 30 second clips, does that even matter anymore?

I didn't, and haven't, seen 1 second of either convention, but the fact that the speakers went on later than a west coast NBA game absolutely would not stop me from watching the whole thing, or the parts someone culled that were the best/most important, at my leisure.

I know TV cares about ratings, but this isn't the Grammy's. There's a different purpose for the people putting on the "show" and I don't think they much care how or when someone sees it, as long as they do. If you want to see it, you can.

[Atocep]

Mike Lindell shaved his mustache and is going around "incognito" wearing sunglasses and arguing with people at the DNC.

[Ksyrup]

Everybody is trying to be a right-wing Jordan Klepper.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Mike Lindell shaved his mustache and is going around "incognito" wearing sunglasses and arguing with people at the DNC.

From what I saw he immediately made a beeline towards a 12-year old Black kid with a microphone, attempted to bully him & failed spectacularly.

[Jas_lov]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Whoever is in charge of scheduling at the DNC had better make damned sure that Kamala gets on stage at the designated time in prime time tonight. If they start running behind schedule *again*, then yank some of the “B” list politicians and/or entertainers. You sure as hell don’t want her speaking at close to midnight EDT like Walz did last night.

Supposedly there's a secret surprise guest. I wonder if it's Beyonce or Taylor.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

Supposedly there's a secret surprise guest. I wonder if it's Beyonce or Taylor.

either one will break the GOPs brain. Especially Taylor.

Can you imagine Kamala coming out to her singing Shake it Off? Will break the internet.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

From what I saw he immediately made a beeline towards a 12-year old Black kid with a microphone, attempted to bully him & failed spectacularly.

Oh man, you have a link to that?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I think that when you spend all of your time in the online MAGA world and you get all of your negative and positive feedback from them, it really does change you.

Like I suspect that Ann Coulter spends most of her time in places where "HA! Look at that special needs kid! What a stupid loser!" gets you lots of likes and kudos. And when she ventures into the real world, it's like a shock.

The real question is whether any of this is penetrating to the ultra-low-information voters who will decide our fate.

Eh, pretty much Ann Coulter’s entire brand is “person who says shocking, heartless, and mean things.” I mean, she told Vivek to his face that she’d never vote for him because he’s Indian. My guess is that she saw the picture and thought “yeah, everyone says leave the kids out of it, so taking a shot at Walz’s kid is TOTALLY on brand for me!” And I’m further guessing she didn’t bother to gather enough basic info to have a clue he has special needs. Still makes her horrid and I’ll be surprised if she apologizes—would be bad for her brand—but I do think she’s smart enough to know that’s a bridge too far even for many of the monsters who otherwise love her.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

Supposedly there's a secret surprise guest. I wonder if it's Beyonce or Taylor.

Raygun!

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

In the age of 24 hour news cycles and 30 second clips, does that even matter anymore?

I didn't, and haven't, seen 1 second of either convention, but the fact that the speakers went on later than a west coast NBA game absolutely would not stop me from watching the whole thing, or the parts someone culled that were the best/most important, at my leisure.

I know TV cares about ratings, but this isn't the Grammy's. There's a different purpose for the people putting on the "show" and I don't think they much care how or when someone sees it, as long as they do. If you want to see it, you can.

I think you underestimate the amount of people who still watch live tv and get their into from the 10:00 news. Especially older folks who Kamala needs.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Oh man, you have a link to that?

Mustache-Less Mike Lindell Is Roaming the DNC Arguing With Dems

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Raygun!

I didn't see it but was it as bad as I heard it was?

Dixie Chicks are supposed to make an appearance

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

And I’m further guessing she didn’t bother to gather enough basic info to have a clue he has special needs.

Most likely

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

In the age of 24 hour news cycles and 30 second clips, does that even matter anymore?

I didn't, and haven't, seen 1 second of either convention, but the fact that the speakers went on later than a west coast NBA game absolutely would not stop me from watching the whole thing, or the parts someone culled that were the best/most important, at my leisure.

I know TV cares about ratings, but this isn't the Grammy's. There's a different purpose for the people putting on the "show" and I don't think they much care how or when someone sees it, as long as they do. If you want to see it, you can.

All of this. The media whined that Trump went too long in his speech, and now they’re whining that the Dems are going too long. Meanwhile I don’t watch a single minute of either one live, and have been able to see everything I want to see, sans commercials, with as much or as little contextual commentary from either side of the aisle as I want, exactly when I want to, in snippets as long or as short as I want. I’ve spoken about the importance of swaying a few hundred voters here or there, but come on, in this day, if someone’s tired from a long day at work, they’re just gonna say, “eh, I’ll just catch her on YouTube in the morning” and go to bed.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

From what I saw he immediately made a beeline towards a 12-year old Black kid with a microphone, attempted to bully him & failed spectacularly.

I saw people questioning why he was debating a 12 year old and someone replied "skill based matchmaking" and I died.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think you underestimate the amount of people who still watch live tv and get their into from the 10:00 news. Especially older folks who Kamala needs.

They keep Biden's hours. They aren't up past 11 to watch. At best, they try and fall asleep 5 minutes in.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I'm pretty sure the NATO leaders and Ukraine leadership disagree with you. NATO leadership have already dealt with Trump and Ukraine can read Trump's words just as well as anyone else.

No one said anything about cutting defense, I agree that won't happen. But defense monies will be reallocated from NATO and Ukraine to something else. Maybe build some more naval ships, maybe fund more Space Force etc. I'm actually okay if we let NATO fund their own defense, Trump was right that we've been taken as suckers re: 2% of GDP. And it's not as if NATO will materially come help us/Taiwan if the worst happens so I rather move NATO money to Asia.

I'd toss in North Korea and Philippines as 2 additional different tracks that Joe vs Trump have taken. Joe is negative towards China just as Trump was, but Joe cares more about Asia security than Trump does. NK will be NK, but Philippines (which is BTW a functioning democracy) is strategic for the US in the the region.

NATO spending was up considerably under Trump. He encouraged other countries to spend even more. And he sold tons of weapons to NATO allies. Like I said, actions speak louder than words.

And yes, defense money will be re-allocated just like it always is. Biden got us out of Afghanistan but shifted that money toward Ukraine and Israel. Who gets it isn't a big concern to either party, it's that welfare for the defense industry continues.

And calling the Philippines a democracy is quite a stretch. I know NGOs have to do it to keep their funding but you don't have to play that game unless you are being compensated too.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think you:
underestimate the amount of people who still watch live tv and get their into from the 10:00 news. Especially older folks who Kamala needs.

Older folks tend to be…

1. More likely to vote. They ain’t staying home because Kamala stood up at 11:15 rather than 10:00.
2. Ummm…kinda intractable. I’m having a hard time imagining that the undecided/may-or-may-not-vote group is loaded with 75-year-olds.
3. Not all luddites. My 72yo sister is a freaking YouTube addict. “Wait…this means I don’t have to pay for DVR any more???”

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And calling the Philippines a democracy is quite a stretch. I know NGOs have to do it to keep their funding but you don't have to play that game unless you are being compensated too.

Please post a non-Tiktok or Twitter source discussing why Philippines is not a democracy? Always best for discussions instead of just personal (and likely misguided) opinions.

I posted a wiki (?) article a while back refuting your claim.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Whoever is in charge of scheduling at the DNC had better make damned sure that Kamala gets on stage at the designated time in prime time tonight. If they start running behind schedule *again*, then yank some of the “B” list politicians and/or entertainers. You sure as hell don’t want her speaking at close to midnight EDT like Walz did last night.

I suspect they'll be sure to make sure she's on in primetime. With Joe, I felt like it was intentional to have him go on so late. Wildly unpopular politician who is dealing with dementia. A gaffe at midnight is not as bad as a gaffe at 10pm when everyone is watching.

And I do think time does matter (although a little overblown). The ratings are huge in primetime for these conventions and it can be the difference in a few million viewers depending on when the speech is made. Plus with Kamala, she's not as well known to the country so I think it's important that as many people as possible see her speak.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

NATO spending was up considerably under Trump. He encouraged other countries to spend even more. And he sold tons of weapons to NATO allies. Like I said, actions speak louder than words.

I presume any increase in spending was because Trump told them to pay their "fair share" e.g. target 2% of GDP. If not, provide a source

So he sold a ton of weapons to NATO allies, much better than him not doing it and continuing to subsidize their collective defense with US troops in Europe especially (then) during peace time.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Please post a non-Tiktok or Twitter source discussing why Philippines is not a democracy? Always best for discussions instead of just personal (and likely misguided) opinions.

I posted a wiki (?) article a while back refuting your claim.

You can't be a democracy if you have no free press and opposition politicians are jailed, tortured, and/or killed.

Just do a cursory Google search on red-tagging in the Philippines and you can find all the sources you need although I doubt that matters much to you.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You can't be a democracy if you have no free press and opposition politicians are jailed, tortured, and/or killed.

Just do a cursory Google search on red-tagging in the Philippines and you can find all the sources you need although I doubt that matters much to you.

Again, post your source. Otherwise, I'll just chalk this up to your tiktok, twitter, JDAM-can-tell-by-acoustics, its-a-NINJA-chopper opinion.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Again, post your source. Otherwise, I'll just chalk this up to your tiktok, twitter, JDAM-can-tell-by-acoustics, its-a-NINJA-chopper opinion.

I understand that you aren't particularly well read, but Google is not difficult.

Red-tagging in the Philippines - Wikipedia

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I presume any increase in spending was because Trump told them to pay their "fair share" e.g. target 2% of GDP. If not, provide a source

So he sold a ton of weapons to NATO allies, much better than him not doing it and continuing to subsidize their collective defense with US troops in Europe especially (then) during peace time.

Trump Hectors NATO But Boosts Both Money And Troops : NPR

During the first three years of that effort, originally known as the European Reassurance Initiative, the Obama administration dedicated about $5.2 billion to building up the American military presence in Europe.

The Trump administrationhas more than tripled what its predecessor spent on the EDI: A total of $17.2 billion has been requested for the initiative in the three annual budgets the current White Househas sent to Congress, which in turn has approved those funding levels.

And yes, other countries paid more after he pushed for it.

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2...020-104-en.pdf

For a guy who hates NATO and wants to end it, it's an odd strategy to give it more money and push other countries to contribute even more money.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I understand that you aren't particularly well read, but Google is not difficult.

Red-tagging in the Philippines - Wikipedia

Neither is reading the entire article. Nowhere does it refute that Philippines is a democracy. Prove me wrong, provide a quote from your link.

And since we like quoting wiki as it's a good start for misunderstandings ...

Politics of the Philippines - Wikipedia

Politics in the Philippines are governed by a three-branch system of government. The country is a democracy, with a president who is directly elected by the people and serves as both the head of state and the head of government.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Mustache-Less Mike Lindell Is Roaming the DNC Arguing With Dems

Doesn't really help the "weird" label

[Lathum]

This is amazing if it isn't a photoshop

Tim Walz coming for Ann Coulter.

�� Don't mess with Gus. pic.twitter.com/PNUDuTHuBK

— AskAubry �� (@ask_aubry) August 22, 2024

[albionmoonlight]

If GWB endorses Kamala on the "Trump's a unique threat to America" theory, do we think that moves the needle at all?

[Thomkal]

wow nice one Walz

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

If GWB endorses Kamala on the "Trump's a unique threat to America" theory, do we think that moves the needle at all?

I don't think so.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Neither is reading the entire article. Nowhere does it refute that Philippines is a democracy. Prove me wrong, provide a quote from your link.

And since we like quoting wiki as it's a good start for misunderstandings ...

Politics of the Philippines - Wikipedia

There is no arbiter on what is and isn't a democracy. If you believe that jailing, torturing, and killing political opponents makes you a democracy, so be it. If you believe that no free press makes a country a democracy, great. There's really no convincing you otherwise and by that definition, countries like Russia would qualify.

I just don't agree that you can be a democracy with that structure. Not that being a democracy matters to the United States anyway.