The Biden Presidency - 2020

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by miked

I went to McDonalds right off the highway near my house a few weeks ago, it was late at night (like 9pm) and I just wanted to get my daughter a milkshake I had promised earlier. After waiting in the drive through line for like 5 minutes and realized it was going nowhere, I parked an went inside. There were 2 people working there (plus a manager) and one person had just started. People were screaming and getting all up in arms, like what do you expect from some 17 year old with no training with nobody to help. The manager said they were not allowed to pay over a certain wage and everyone who starts just quits after a week.

Side note, I should have just gone to CFA but it was one exit away and I had just played an hour of grueling soccer. But yeah, people were being total dicks to a bunch of kids over not getting their shit burgers fast enough.

I was reading about franchises and how about the only thing they can control cost-wise is wages. All of the inventory is mandated by the parent company, so there's no way to reduce costs other than by keeping wages low.

[thesloppy]

I have a hard time mustering up sympathy for fast food franchisees, I think they all clearly knew they were buying into an established system that exploits and oppresses minimum wage workers in order to sell a predetermined menu of some of the lowest-grade food available.

[cuervo72]

Younger Child has been working in the kennel portion of a vets for a while, and between summer and taking a year off from school they're working more hours. Unfortunately, people keep on quitting, which puts more pressure on the current staff, which leads to more staff quitting...

Someone else gave 2 weeks today. After that, YC will be the only one able to work downstairs during morning hours, because all the other downstairs staff will be high schoolers. The plan seems to be to cut back on boarding (i.e. losing business). Which...even if you only have 3-5 dogs there, you still need someone every day to take care of them in the morning. From the outset, YC told them they could only work so many days. So...yeah. Not sure what the answer is.

(Add to that fact that pay-wise, they could probably get a job at Taco Bell and be making $2-$3 more per hour. We'll see how long this lasts. Only catch: YC still does not have anything more than a driver's permit. Vet is basically around the corner.)

[RainMaker]

Also, the parent company could easily help with the costs. Kind of tells you all you need to know about what they think of their franchisees.

Whatever Chick-Fil-A does seems to work. Never see them shorthanded and probably the best service I've ever seen from a fast-food restaurant.

[Atocep]

I would normally put this in the random thoughts thread, but the incident made me think of this thread.

I went to Jersey Mike's today to order a sandwich for lunch. As I walked in an incident was just starting. Apparently a guy ordered 2 sandwiches with every single meat on them plus Mike's way. He then paid for his sandwiches and waited. The lady behind him ordered a small and simple sandwich. The 3 people behind the counter were able to finish the simple order first, then moved her to the front to also pay so she could get her sandwich and leave. His sandwiches were being worked on the entire time, but the guy ABSOLUTELY LOSES HIS MIND. He got so mad he couldn't talk, was fuming and stumbling through answering questions, and then finally composes himself enough to start berating the employees because "they should help people in the order they came in" and kept asking "if that's too difficult". The only thing the employees could do is apologize and ask if he wanted a refund.

Why the hell would anyone take abuse like that for doing their job efficiently? The customer is always right mentality has created generations of people that are entitled and treat service and retail people like shit.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Where are these high-paying jobs that just can't be filled? Like what industry are we talking about?

This is certainly not the only thing causing some of this. But I've watched IT play this game a lot, posting ridiculous qualifications like 10+ years of experience for a technology that's only been around 5. That's all for the purposes of being able to say "see... we didn't find anyone now hand us our H1B visa so we can pay someone from overseas half the going rate and half what we're paying everyone else at this company". In theory, you're not supposed to be able to legally do that (H1Bs are supposed to be paid the same wage as everyone else), but damned if I haven't seen it happen personally. Oh, and the company loves to abuse those folks, too, working them 70+ hours because if you make noise, they can yank your visa.

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Right now nursing jobs are rather hard to fill...

I'm going to count that as having a bit of extenuating circumstances right now, what with a ranging pandemic and all.

SI

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

This is certainly not the only thing causing some of this. But I've watched IT play this game a lot, posting ridiculous qualifications like 10+ years of experience for a technology that's only been around 5. That's all for the purposes of being able to say "see... we didn't find anyone now hand us our H1B visa so we can pay someone from overseas half the going rate and half what we're paying everyone else at this company". In theory, you're not supposed to be able to legally do that (H1Bs are supposed to be paid the same wage as everyone else), but damned if I haven't seen it happen personally. Oh, and the company loves to abuse those folks, too, working them 70+ hours because if you make noise, they can yank your visa.

SI

IT job requirements are the most ridiculous shit there is. You have situations like you describe and then you have people that have no idea how IT works creating requirements that don't match the job they're asking someone to do because of ignorance. They think if they have a basic IT job and post high requirements they're going to get a great tech, when in reality they're going to end up getting someone that cheated on their certs and don't have the actual knowledge to land a job anywhere else.

[GrantDawg]

I am for the vaccine. I am for businesses having the freedom to mandate the vaccines. I am not so much for the Federal government forcing companies to mandate the vaccine.

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[Flasch186]

@atocep by paying a wage that makes it worthwhile for the abuse

Same as a referee of a kids sport wherein the abuse is rampant. No umpires to show? Pay more


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[JPhillips]

I'm not thrilled with the OSHA vaccine mandate, but Trump voters complaining about executive overreach can just fuck right off.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I'm going to count that as having a bit of extenuating circumstances right now, what with a ranging pandemic and all.

SI

I mean yes, that's why the ellipses mostly. Pretty sure there was a shortage before, but yes the pandemic is exacerbating it.

[Swaggs]

Interesting read that seems relevant to the thread: https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects...urant-workers/

Since restaurants have reopened as the pandemic has eased, diners might have noticed some changes: fewer servers to refill water, fewer hosts to say hello and slimmer menus due to smaller kitchen staff. It’s a common sight in the Bay Area and across the country — a labor shortage that’s had a major impact on how the hospitality industry returns.

Some restaurateurs and politicians claimed that workers were sitting at home, collecting unemployment benefits. But many workers who chose to stay away cited issues such as safety concerns and confrontational customers. Pandemic-related federal unemployment benefits came to an end on Sept. 6, and businesses may be in for a rude awakening in the next few months: Many hospitality workers might not be coming back at all. In a recent survey by job hunting site Joblist, more than 50% of workers who were offered incentives to come back — like higher pay and benefits — preferred to enter a different industry.

The Chronicle spoke with multiple former Bay Area hospitality workers to hear why they decided to leave the industry. Some had worked in restaurants for more than a decade, motivated by the world’s energy and creativity. But one could no longer contend with what she termed a toxic environment. Another wanted to pursue his passion for art. A former manager realized a pre-pandemic car accident meant his body couldn’t handle the physical work anymore.

Here are the stories of six former restaurant workers, told in their own words. Their reasons for leaving ranged, but all shared one trait: a desire to better their lives.

[GrantDawg]

Andrew Yang leaving the Democratic party to form a new political party.

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[sovereignstar v2]

The Buy My New Book Party?

[molson]

People are being huge dicks at the grocery stores from what I hear.

Getting mad about staff shortages at the people who are actually working there is....special.

Though I also think/hope we're very gradually moving away from the "customer is always right" philosophy. I'm hearing more and more about managers defending their employees and telling these people to fuck off and not come back. I know the Whole Foods my girlfriend is a manager at has banned some people.

And Whole Foods starts at $15/hour and most employed there are way higher than that, in a town where service jobs traditionally were minimum wage, and they can't fill shifts either. I know of some people going into work when they really shouldn't illness-wise, but, they feel like they have no choice because the store will close otherwise.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

People are being huge dicks at the grocery stores from what I hear.

Getting mad about staff shortages at the people who are actually working there is....special.

Though I also think/hope we're very gradually moving away from the "customer is always right" philosophy. I'm hearing more and more about managers defending their employees and telling these people to fuck off and not come back. I know the Whole Foods my girlfriend is a manager at has banned some people.

And Whole Foods starts at $15/hour and most employed there are way higher than that, in a town where service jobs traditionally were minimum wage, and they can't fill shifts either. I know of some people going into work when they really shouldn't illness-wise, but, they feel like they have no choice because the store will close otherwise.

I've called out a couple of people at stores this year while shopping. People target employees because they know they can't fight back. So if you do see it, you should say something.

[JPhillips]

Every time I hear about Cheney ordering the PA flight shot down I want someone to ask why he was giving orders when the President was alive. Some day we'll grapple with the seeming fact that the President was cut out of much of the decision making process.

[SirFozzie]

Hell, my brother is coaching JV soccer this year, and their school system has problem because the bus companies can't find drivers even at $19-$26 an hour

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Where are these high-paying jobs that just can't be filled? Like what industry are we talking about?

A lot of them are in the so-called 'skilled trades', which leads back to the same education discussion that I don't think it would be productive to have again since we've been there multiple times before. Nurses have been brought up and there's a long-term shortage (average RN wage is $75k, twice the US median wage of $37-38k). Truck drivers. Various IT fields, though I bow to what others have said regarding some of that being preventable. The construction industry in general. There are parts of the country where plumbers make six figures and there still aren't enough.

@ bronconick;

This was a useful link; appreciate it. Saddening as well. Then on the other side of it you have construction firms reporting wanting to hire and train people and a lot of their applicants can't so much as read a tape measure, follow basic instructions, etc. There was a ton of info in that report, but what I couldn't find that would have been more interesting and helpful IMO is specifics about particular industries, because the needs are so much different, some industries are fine with staffing while others aren't, approaches aren't the same, and so on.

[RainMaker]

Nursing is unique in that it is largely caused by changing demographics. It doesn't help that you have to put out maybe $100k for the privelege of even entering a high stress field with a ceiling on your potential earnings.

There is no IT shortage. It's companies who don't want to pay higher salaries and are desperately trying to flood the market with cheaper options. The tech industry went so far as to break the law to drive down prices years ago.

Trucker pay has taken a nosedive over the past 30 years. So if you're wondering why less people want to be truckers, maybe that's a good start. Regardless, our own government did a study on the issue a couple years ago and found there was no shortage.

Look at the sources that spout the propaganda about the labor market. It is trade organizations and lobbyists looking to loosen or eliminate regulations or flood the country with cheap labor. And to do it they push a bogus narrative of young people being too lazy to work despite being more educated and having substantially more debt than previous generations.

[QuikSand]

There is very, very rarely a worker shortage. There can often be a shortage of workers willing to take an offered wage. The market has a means to remedy this.

[henry296]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Nursing is unique in that it is largely caused by changing demographics. It doesn't help that you have to put out maybe $100k for the privelege of even entering a high stress field with a ceiling on your potential earnings.

RN degree programs can be accomplished in just 2 years, so 100k is on the high side. Once you get hired most employers will cover most if not all of the cost to get BSN or masters through tuition reimbursement programs to improve your earnings.

Like many of these jobs the working conditions can be difficult for some with significant case loads combined with long shifts in a hospital setting where the need is the greatest and I'm not talking about critical care with COVID patients.

[JPhillips]

Two year depends on the state. NY, for example, requires a four-year degree.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by henry296

Like many of these jobs the working conditions can be difficult for some with significant case loads combined with long shifts in a hospital setting where the need is the greatest and I'm not talking about critical care with COVID patients.

I don't dispute at all that the working conditions can be difficult, but, and I don't mean to be insensitive to anyone, but should we not expect that? Should we expect a job paying $75k a year to be a breeze? What's the realistic expectation here - I'm talking about the discussion as a whole mind, not your helpful comment specifically.

I.e., I don't want to get bogged down in specifics about this or that job/industry. I'll stipulate being 100% wrong on the nursing and trucking examples. But this isn't just a case of trade association propaganda. We have, even prior to the pandemic, a situation where a long-term trendline of about 4 million unfilled jobs jumped to 6 million, pre-pandemic (2015, roughly). Can't get wage data for them from government data in any way I know, but the few analyses I've come across indicate many of the jobs are north of $50k. We're talking about a timeframe in which real wages/purchasing power were not declining overall - they were in some industries like the restaurant business, as I saw firsthand and I agree with those who say if you're running your company that way, you deserve what you get. To repeat what I've said, I'm not trying to be an apologist for businesses here, but I don't see how to look at those facts and not see a big problem.

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Capitalism fixes it all if the government doesn't come to their rescue when capitalism forces them to adjust.

Again, I totally agree with this. The way they are adjusting right now in most cases is to produce fewer products, presumably because they don't think they can hire enough people for a tenable amount. I don't see how this isn't a really big problem. For everyone, not just the businesses.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Hell, my brother is coaching JV soccer this year, and their school system has problem because the bus companies can't find drivers even at $19-$26 an hour

This is of course anecdotal, but this is the kind of thing that is a huge problem. This pay range is well above median pay in this country, and it's a job with fairly low requirements (no, it's not full-time, but still).

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I'd say that $40,000/yr feels like a "I can have kids on this and not worry about them going hungry, or us missing rent, or getting the power cut off" floor.

This was a very reasonable post, thanks. I also want to point out the link KSyrup posted, which does appear to be based on family of four but regardless the range was $41-63k. And I just say think about what we're saying here, even if we stop at $40k. Are we saying that one full-time job should be plenty for a family of four everywhere? Remember that we're talking here about what the minimum full-time job should pay, not what one with any significant level of experience, marketable skills, education, job hazards/inconveniences, etc. should pay. Just the one that you walk into with barely two brain cells to rub together and has rock-bottom requirements for the employee, a pure time-for-money exchange. This is better-paying than over half of the jobs in our current economy. At no point in our history has an entry-level job remotely approached that.

A whole lot of industries would just go away, to be replaced with ... what? The upheaval to the economy would be catastrophic. That level of shift could not possibly be otherwhise. And then it would also just be a bandaid, because while health care costs are increasing slower over the past decade than they were, they are still increasing faster than inflation. Housing costs are increasing much faster than inflation. Energy costs are not, but are likely to in the future. Part of the issue is we aren't asking for the same thing we used to. Typical houses are more than twice the size they used to be with more requirements. Procedures we consider basic now like MRIs didn't even exist in the late 70s. At some point, we have to stop continually asking for more at the rate of increase we have been, or it just doesn't work. . Etc. I just don't know how to see this whole expectation of what a entry-level full-time job should provide as anything other than absolutely insanely unrealistic. You could ban all stock buybacks and whatever else you want and not come within several orders of magnitude of absorbing that kind of blow. There are so many jobs - not employees, jobs - that simply can't produce enough profit/product to sustain that.

I think the scariest part to me is the level of pandemic fear that still apparently exists because that's not going away. If that's going to put us at a stage where we're going to be aggressively hostile to workers in 'essential' businesses as has been described here - thankfully where I live I haven't seen much of it - and make them leave even those jobs despite substantial pay increases, I don't see a path back to sanity, forget about normalcy. The pandemic isn't going away no matter what happens on the vaccine side.

I know I'm generally way out of touch with how this board sees things, but this whole mentality to me is way scarier than Covid, which has been bad enough.

[henry296]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I don't dispute at all that the working conditions can be difficult, but, and I don't mean to be insensitive to anyone, but should we not expect that? Should we expect a job paying $75k a year to be a breeze? What's the realistic expectation here - I'm talking about the discussion as a whole mind, not your helpful comment specifically.

I wanted to speak specifically about nursing because I have some personal experience with it. I wanted to provide some context on why that role has a large need right now and it isn't necessarily cost of entry.

As it was said it is a stressful job and having too many patients to take care of can add to that stress. Some states have specific requirements to limit that similar to class sizes for teachers and those areas have less of an issue. Therefore, the job does have higher turnover than other professions which leads to job openings all the time.

Benefits and working conditions are things besides just salary that determine what industries people want to work in which has been said. Companies need to determine that right balance. However, there is also plenty of research that shows that Associate Satisfaction = Customer Satisfaction = Revenue Growth.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by henry296

RN degree programs can be accomplished in just 2 years, so 100k is on the high side. Once you get hired most employers will cover most if not all of the cost to get BSN or masters through tuition reimbursement programs to improve your earnings.

Like many of these jobs the working conditions can be difficult for some with significant case loads combined with long shifts in a hospital setting where the need is the greatest and I'm not talking about critical care with COVID patients.

57% have a BSN and the goal is to get it to 80%. States like New York, along with many hospital groups make a 4--year a requirement. Plus they pay more.

I don't really get what you're arguing anymore. Is it just some lazy millennial rant at this point?

It's simple shit. This is a market economy. If no one wants to work your job then you find a way to make it more enticing. There isn't some big conspiracy.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by henry296

RN degree programs can be accomplished in just 2 years, so 100k is on the high side. Once you get hired most employers will cover most if not all of the cost to get BSN or masters through tuition reimbursement programs to improve your earnings.

Like many of these jobs the working conditions can be difficult for some with significant case loads combined with long shifts in a hospital setting where the need is the greatest and I'm not talking about critical care with COVID patients.

Two members of my extended family got their RN by going through a hospital's RN/nursing program. 2 years. Not sure what they paid but it was a deal where after graduation, they could work it off at the hospital. So yeah, $100k is on the high side.

Not sure about BSN costs. I do have SIL that got her BSN through college so assume that costs more. But an RN is enough to get you employment on an average+ salary.

There's been a nursing shortage since at least the early 90's.

[Edward64]

Joe, arguably you are late to the game but glad you did it, and love the "have at it".

President Joe Biden challenged Republicans to test his new vaccine requirements in court Friday as he stressed his administration's commitment to keeping students safe as he visited a Washington, DC, middle school on Friday.

In a visit highlighting one part of his six-pronged plan to combat the pandemic, Biden addressed criticism from Republicans, including several governors, who say his new plan amounts to government overreach and that they plan to challenge it in court. The Republican National Committee has said it plans to sue the administration over the stringent new measures.

"Have at it. Look, I am so disappointed that, particularly some of the Republican governors have been so cavalier with the health of these kids, so cavalier with the health of their communities," Biden said.

The President continued: "We're playing for real here, this isn't a game, and I don't know of any scientist out there in this field that doesn't think it makes considerable sense to do the six things I've suggested."

[albionmoonlight]

Biden would rather people be talking about the vaccine than Afghanistan.

Lucky for him, there are a lot of GOP governors and Congressional back-benchers who would also rather be talking about the vaccine than Afghanistan.

[GrantDawg]

I do wonder how much the "gig" jobs are hurting more traditional businesses. How many people that would have taken that pretty crappy but decent paying job is instead choosing to work for Instacart or Uber so they can set their own hours and work as they want to. I did it for awhile. If the money was better I would do it full time.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I do wonder how much the "gig" jobs are hurting more traditional businesses. How many people that would have taken that pretty crappy but decent paying job is instead choosing to work for Instacart or Uber so they can set their own hours and work as they want to. I did it for awhile. If the money was better I would do it full time.

I remember reading a while ago how for a lot of people, things like just-in-time scheduling was way more of an issue than pay. Makes sense to me. $10/hr is bad. But $10/hr when you are constantly on call is way worse.

I think that for middle-class and above jobs, we understand that people make decisions on things other than money--work environment, fulfillment of work, flexible hours, shorter commute, etc. But we (or at least I) still have to remember that everyone has those same desires. It isn't just about the paycheck.

[sterlingice]

I dunno where to put this but I guess this is where 9/11 stuff goes

Remarks by President George W. Bush at the Flight 93 National Memorial in Shanksville, Pennsylvania | Bush Center

Bush is saying a lot of the right things. He's saying them out of both sides of his mouth in a lot of ways, but he's trying to do the right thing-ish. But this passage got to me:

When it comes to the unity of America, those days seems distant from our own. A malign force seems at work in our common life that turns every disagreement into an argument, and every argument into a clash of cultures. So much of our politics has become a naked appeal to anger, fear, and resentment. That leaves us worried about our nation and our future together.

Look, you dumb shit, you're a huge part of the reason we're in this place. If you (and maybe you're just an ignorant fucking clown, but I don't buy that you're not 100% ignorant of this), your VP, your secretary of defense, the rest of the Pax American crew, and all of their associated cretins didn't have a hard-on for bombing places on the other side of the globe to get rich off military contractors, it wouldn't be this shitty right now. If your communications arm wasn't led by one of the most vile people to ever propagandize and doesn't spend his time ginning up racist support to go fight these wars or continue Saint Reagan's crusade against "welfare queens", or just erode support in any institution that might help someone who doesn't look quite like you, et al*, maybe it's not as bad. Maybe we don't spend the last 20 years radicalizing the right to the point where it's hard to distinguish the "real GOP" from "white nationalists" - let's be honest, neo-Nazis. Donald Trump can't reap the harvest if you don't sew the seeds. And if you don't use that support to push the Patriot Act, crushing individual rights in this country, maybe the future doesn't look so dystopian.

So, look, you may say you want unity now. And I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt as I think you might actually feel that way, especially more than a lot of other people I've mentioned so far. But you helped burn the goddamned house down so you don't get to pretend it just happened or was an unavoidable perfect storm, not when you're holding the gas can. Some (but not all of us) have forgotten what a fuck up you were and how you took this national tragedy, enriched yourself and your cronies, and splintered America. Maybe mix in a mea culpa or two, you ass. We can draw a direct line from that to where we are today and you don't get to weasel your way out of your part in it.

*At least Bush tried to do comprehensive immigration reform, even if the Buchanan-ish wing of his party killed it. He wasn't trying to build a wall, even if it was for the craven political purpose of not having 90%+ of a particular demographic vote against them for at least a generation

SI

[sovereignstar v2]

.

[NobodyHere]

I miss the Bush years. And say what you will about W., that guy could really dodge a shoe.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I remember reading a while ago how for a lot of people, things like just-in-time scheduling was way more of an issue than pay. Makes sense to me. $10/hr is bad. But $10/hr when you are constantly on call is way worse.

I think that for middle-class and above jobs, we understand that people make decisions on things other than money--work environment, fulfillment of work, flexible hours, shorter commute, etc. But we (or at least I) still have to remember that everyone has those same desires. It isn't just about the paycheck.

I am probably middle-middle class, and I could be upper middle if I were willing to never be home. I would have more money, but that has never been my strongest motivator.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I dunno where to put this but I guess this is where 9/11 stuff goes

Remarks by President George W. Bush at the Flight 93 National Memorial in Shanksville, Pennsylvania | Bush Center

Bush is saying a lot of the right things. He's saying them out of both sides of his mouth in a lot of ways, but he's trying to do the right thing-ish. But this passage got to me:



Look, you dumb shit, you're a huge part of the reason we're in this place. If you (and maybe you're just an ignorant fucking clown, but I don't buy that you're not 100% ignorant of this), your VP, your secretary of defense, the rest of the Pax American crew, and all of their associated cretins didn't have a hard-on for bombing places on the other side of the globe to get rich off military contractors, it wouldn't be this shitty right now. If your communications arm wasn't led by one of the most vile people to ever propagandize and doesn't spend his time ginning up racist support to go fight these wars or continue Saint Reagan's crusade against "welfare queens", or just erode support in any institution that might help someone who doesn't look quite like you, et al*, maybe it's not as bad. Maybe we don't spend the last 20 years radicalizing the right to the point where it's hard to distinguish the "real GOP" from "white nationalists" - let's be honest, neo-Nazis. Donald Trump can't reap the harvest if you don't sew the seeds. And if you don't use that support to push the Patriot Act, crushing individual rights in this country, maybe the future doesn't look so dystopian.

So, look, you may say you want unity now. And I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt as I think you might actually feel that way, especially more than a lot of other people I've mentioned so far. But you helped burn the goddamned house down so you don't get to pretend it just happened or was an unavoidable perfect storm, not when you're holding the gas can. Some (but not all of us) have forgotten what a fuck up you were and how you took this national tragedy, enriched yourself and your cronies, and splintered America. Maybe mix in a mea culpa or two, you ass. We can draw a direct line from that to where we are today and you don't get to weasel your way out of your part in it.

*At least Bush tried to do comprehensive immigration reform, even if the Buchanan-ish wing of his party killed it. He wasn't trying to build a wall, even if it was for the craven political purpose of not having 90%+ of a particular demographic vote against them for at least a generation

SI

This seemed notable as well:

And we have seen growing evidence that the dangers to our country can come not only across borders, but from violence that gathers within. There is little cultural overlap between violent extremists abroad and violent extremists at home. But in their disdain for pluralism, in their disregard for human life, in their determination to defile national symbols, they are children of the same foul spirit. And it is our continuing duty to confront them.

I can't recall seeing any Republican (and actually very few Democrats) acknowledge that the 1/6 terrorists and the 9/11 terrorists "are children of the same foul spirit."

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Interesting read that seems relevant to the thread: https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects...urant-workers/

Thanks for this. Really interesting read.

[miami_fan]

The pandemic drove women out of the workforce. Will they come back? - POLITICO

Another article re: where did all the workers go?

[Edward64]

Major challenge to Biden's negotiation skills. Not sure how he's going to get this done.

Democratic Sen. Joe Manchin said Sunday he will not support the $3.5 trillion price tag for the economic bill that would expand the nation's social safety net and that "there's no way" Congress can meet the timeline set by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to pass it.

"(Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer) will not have my vote on $3.5 (trillion) and Chuck knows that, and we've talked about this," the West Virginia senator told CNN's Dana Bash on "State of the Union."

Manchin's stance underscores the challenge facing Democratic leadership as they work to advance the sprawling spending bill proposed by President Joe Biden and his allies in the narrowly divided Congress. And he's not the only Democrat expressing reservations, potentially imperiling the bill, which leadership hopes to pass with just Democratic votes.

Democratic Sen. Mark Warner of Virginia said in a statement Sunday evening that he believes the spending bill "falls short" because there is not enough funding for housing assistance.

"We have an obligation to use this historic investment to address longstanding inequities of power and opportunity that have left Black families with an average net worth one-tenth the size of their white counterparts," Warner said.

Democrats need every vote in their caucus to get the bill through the Senate along straight party lines, and multiple moderates have raised red flags, with Manchin and Sen. Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona indicating they do not support spending $3.5 trillion.

[Brian Swartz]

I'm still where I was before, which is I don't think he will. Hope to be proven wrong, but unless they can get either Manchin & Sinema or the progressives to fold, both bills go up in flames.

[JPhillips]

This is why I hate moderates. There's no specific program they want cut, it's just too much.

But I still think it passes at a slightly lower number. The 3.5 number is fake anyway, so play around with things and just make it 3 or something.

[Flasch186]

I find it fantastic how the gop so eloquently spends like a drunken sailor en masse and in line when they hold the strings but they also can implant into the architecture that they’re the fiscal conservatives who give a shit about budgets and our children’s financial futures while also some how leveraging the moderates along the way to torpedo the democratic agenda. This also discounts the fact that while in office they paint the left as obstructionist but do the exact same thing, better, when in the minority. Their ability to dust off the old playbook is incredible. Hopefully either it fails in the next elections to resonate so that hypocrisy begins its slow tail spin or truth prevails and they just run on their honest platforms of limiting voting rights, spending the same just on their pet projects, busting the deficit to line the pockets of the wealthy under the guise of job creation, limiting women’s choice of whether to take an early term pregnancy to term while also screaming about their choice on whether or not to vaccinate, etc etc


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[Lathum]

Looks like Newsome is gonna roll.

[bronconick]

Wasserman called it 20 minutes in and went to bed.

[Galaril]

Could he run for president 2024 as the D nominee?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Looks like Newsome is gonna roll.

Can someone explain the republican strategy on this? None of their talking points were popular in California and Elder ran on the Trump playbook, which lost him the state by nearly 30 points.

[miami_fan]

I feel like California was a sacrificial lamb for a greater GOP strategy. Goes something like this. The "power of the people" forced the recall election to happen. The establishment rigged the election to not follow the will of the "people" and keep the wrong people in power. If they can do it in California, they can do it in your state. Fix the election laws in your state so this does not happen there.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by bronconick

Wasserman called it 20 minutes in and went to bed.

So much for that taking days to count and get a result

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Can someone explain the republican strategy on this? None of their talking points were popular in California and Elder ran on the Trump playbook, which lost him the state by nearly 30 points.

Elder didn't need to win the state. He needed enough people to be mad at Newsom. The bet was they could get 50%+ of the people to want to boot Newsom, and Elder (or someone like him) could roll into the Governor's mansion with 25% of the people voting for him. They were exploiting a terrible recall system more than anything. Heck, and a month ago they were winning. In a weird way the Delta variant getting worse helped scare people enough that they stopped being as mad at the restrictions. If Newsom had lost, it would been about Covid fatigue.