Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[molson]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

The Internet loved HHH in 2000 because he was having awesome matches and in great feuds (vs. Cactus, Austin, Jericho/Benoit). But, his 2002/2003 run gets nailed because he cut the legs of Booker T (beating him at Wrestlemania after basically calling him 'boy') and Kane (doing the Katie Vick angle).

So he was awesome in 2000, but then sucked two years later because he married Stephanie? Maybe it's just more fun to root for the guy who isn't on top.

And let's see, Cena was awesome in 2003, but then sucked two years later because he was booked to be a great champion.

Hmmm.

Why didn't the Booker T win "make sense?" HHH was the champion. "Cutting the legs of" = clean heel win. Even smarts don't like them, apparently. It's funny because 95% of the time, the WWE does agree with your logic. If the heel is really, really mean - the face has to win the end. The one time that didn't happen is considered one of the great booking tragedies in history.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

My biggest problem with WWE creatively the last few years has been predictability, the way shows end, the way feuds are setup. This year has been different. This will be the most wide open Royal Rumble since they went to the "winner gets a title shot" format. You really have no idea who they're going to put the belt on. It would have shocked nobody if Alberto Del Rio won the title at the last PPV. Yes, you can assume that most matches will involve some kind of shenanigans - but this is pro wrestling. If you want serious competition there's MMA. The attitude era had almost no clean finishes (unless you count brawling outside the ring for 20 minutes, guys throwing each other through announce tables, strangling each other with microphone cords "clean")

I don't think it's that open. It's going to be Cena, Orton, or HHH.

My problem is predictability. They use the same template. Heel gets built up beating up on jobbers and borderline mid-carders. Heel wins Championship controversially. Wins next few defenses by DQ or interference. Then loses cleanly to Cena or Orton.

I loved the Nexus angle because it was unpredictable for awhile. The match with him as special ref had great build-up to it. People in the locker room questioning his integrity and real uncertainty as to what he'd do. But in the end, they allowed him to keep the babyface image and not have to suffer the consequences. Basically shitting all over an angle they spent 6 months building up and fucking the fans who paid $50 for the PPV.

The WWE just needs more variety in their heels and even faces. They need a chickenshit heel like Miz. But they also need a dominant heel. I thought that was the route they'd go with Sheamus but they just wouldn't allow him to get over on Cena or Orton. So they turned him into a chickenshit heel like the rest.

I just hate this notion that the worst face can beat the best heel anytime in a clean match. It's just boring and predictable. How much do you want to bet that Miz retains at the next PPV with interference or a DQ? I mean why bother ordering the PPV.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

If they have a clean match where Miz's rival (not Cena or Orton by the way) doesn't get involved, Miz will win. I would expect to see that in the next week or two.

They had a clean match and Lawler was interference away from being the WWE Champion. The WWE Champion can't beat Jerry Lawler in a ladders match.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They had a clean match and Lawler was interference away from being the WWE Champion. The WWE Champion can't beat Jerry Lawler in a ladders match.

So you want to count that as "clean" but not Sheamus beating Cena in a table match?

[molson]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

And as I've said, I've got no problems with Cena when he's actually treating World title feuds like serious things instead of reasons for telling 15 minute long jokes.

Sounds like the Rock. Cena took that Nexus stuff very seriously. Rock would have just told 25 hermaphrodite jokes and walked away.

Is there anything you like about pro wrestling in the last 10 years? I can't remember if you're one of the people here that hated Nexus too. I know you hated Sheamus' title win and push.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I just hate this notion that the worst face can beat the best heel anytime in a clean match. It's just boring and predictable. How much do you want to bet that Miz retains at the next PPV with interference or a DQ? I mean why bother ordering the PPV.

The vast majority of pro wrestling matches between two big stars, since at least 1984 when I started watching have some cheating or attempting cheating in them.

So yes, it's predictable they will be cheating, but I don't think the outcome is nearly as predictable anymore. Give any me 2 names for the Rumble, I'll bet the "field" to win.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

So you want to count that as "clean" but not Sheamus beating Cena in a table match?

Clean in the sense that Lawler didn't have any help. It was basically 2-on-1 against Lawler all match and it still required Cole's interference to keep him from winning. That's your WWE Champion.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

The vast majority of pro wrestling matches between two big stars, since at least 1984 when I started watching have some cheating or attempting cheating in them.

So yes, it's predictable they will be cheating, but I don't think the outcome is nearly as predictable anymore. Give any me 2 names for the Rumble, I'll bet the "field" to win.

It's going to be Cena, Orton, or HHH. I'll bump this after one of them wins.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Clean in the sense that Lawler didn't have any help. It was basically 2-on-1 against Lawler all match and it still required Cole's interference to keep him from winning. That's your WWE Champion.

Sheamus didn't have any help either.

Your point on Lawler is valid but if your'e not consistent, you just seem predisposed to hate everything.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's going to be Cena, Orton, or HHH. I'll bump this after one of them wins.

I would definitely take the field there.

I'm most worried up about HHH "returning" there and winning, and if they do that storyline again I agree that's incredibly lame. But I'd bet on history (those guys don't win every year as it is), and the WWE's current over-obsession with pushing new guys way early.

[RainMaker]

Who do you see in the field as headlining Wrestlemania? I just don't see it happening.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Sheamus didn't have any help either.

Your point on Lawler is valid but if your'e not consistent, you just seem predisposed to hate everything.

No, Sheamus' win is as clean as they'll allow against Cena/Orton. I thought they were going to book Sheamus as a legitimate guy after that. But they turned him into a chickenshit champ afterwards and still to this day.

[Atocep]

I'm a big fan of Sheamus and I'm disappointed in how they've booked him recently.

He has the potential to be hated/loved like Flair in his day but they've turned him into nothing more than a guy to get whichever face they're pushing over. He'll get his title runs and such because they have to let the heels win something, but watching John Morrison come out and beat the hell out of him in the ring while he was doing his King Sheamus bit sums up the way he'll always be used.

I also can't stand John Morrison. Or Edge. Which makes watching the shows damn near impossible for me right now.

[RainMaker]

I used to like Edge when he was a heel. He's just not a good babyface. Should either be a heel or an antihero face. Sort of like Orton.

[Maple Leafs]

The good news is this thread just set a record for most consecutive posts without news of somebody dying.

[TexasT]

I hate to jump in the middle of this, but what happened to HHH?

[Flasch186]

he died.

zing

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

Like I said, if you want to book your company around Miz, that's fine, but then you can't build your company also around your 5 other midcard favorites and the current established guys who are proven draws. And then if he's the center of your company - he's Cena and you'll be back here whining about him.

Think UFC. They don't use Brock Lesnar on every PPV and they're still successful. They've managed to build a large roster of talent that has many fighters who are able to sell PPV's. The WWE could do this as well but they choose not to.

In the WWE they have a guy like Evan Bourne who starts getting popular with the fans and instead of developing this and trying to turn him into a star, they feed him to their 400 lb monsters and job him out in 2 minutes and remind all the fans trying to get emotionally invested in his character that they're wasting their time.

Look at Kofi Kingston a year ago, he was starting to get really popular against Randy Orton, they let him talk and he was actually doing pretty good and then they made him disappear. Now in Smackdown they've turned him into a cartoon, does his stupid boom boom moves, wrestles the exact same match every time and doesn't say a word. And guess what, nobody pays to see him.

How about Nexus? They get a lot of airtime but are booked as complete jobbers, so that's how the crowd views them. The only one there that was getting a decent push is Wade Barrett but I'm not sure when we'll see him next, they're trying to unbury him from about 400 chairs that Cena dropped on him to let everybody on the planet know he's not on the same level as Cena.

It's about Cena and only Cena these days. That's why Smackdown house shows don't draw fans. Nobody cares about the wrestling since they have repeatedly told us that the wrestling portion of the show doesn't matter. And then they wonder why the PPV buyrates are dropping.

Who is the "next" guy to be a big star on the roster? Are they developing anybody? Their "next breakout stars" are exposed on NXT every week and treated as jokes. Then look at Jon Jones in the UFC. He's possibly a future star for them. 6-1 in the UFC in and he's been there for 2 years. He's slowly being moved up the card as he defeats guys, given harder challenges every time to try and turn him into a draw. Now people are starting to take the guy seriously and as a reason to purchase a PPV. He's not there yet but you can tell that they're positioning him to be a top contender soon. And the UFC is nurturing this. In the WWE they would have had Jones in a soda drinking competition, doing obstacle races, and then they'd feed him to the top contender immediately to show everybody that he's not ready for prime time and that you shouldn't cheer for him. That's what happened to Kaval, he won NXT season 2 and is already released.

[TexasT]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

he died.

zing

Thanks. That was helpful.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

I loved Nexus. Until they fucked it up at Summerslam.

I agree. They had the potential to be pretty good. There was Barrett who is potentially a big time player. Otunga as the schemer. Justin Gabriel as the high flyer. Skip Sheffield was the monster. If they developed each guy it could have been great. But they've pushed them as "Barrett and his cannon fodder". If it's not 5 on 1 they always lose.

I wish they had booked it more like Evolution where the bottom guys actually benefitted from being in the alliance instead of how it turned out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

And guess what, nobody pays to see him.

Guess what, nobody was ever going to pay to see him anyway. He was an mildly amusing novelty but that's about it.

And as for Evan Bourne, are we really talking about the WWE making a headliner out of a guy who couldn't even make it to top guy status in ROH? Seriously? Even a guy who has IWC tendencies like me knows that isn't a exactly the best idea going.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by TexasT

Thanks. That was helpful.

If you were looking for a more serious answer, best I can tell he's worked one match back in October since suffering a torn bicep back at the beginning of 2010. He recently got an actual office at WWE HQ to go with his title as "Senior Advisor" to VKM. Basically he's still one of the key people to give Vince input on the wrestling end of the business but the move to give him an office & formal title has been viewed as one meant to make his backstage role more official. Whether it's permanent is still unclear.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If you were looking for a more serious answer, best I can tell he's worked one match back in October since suffering a torn bicep back at the beginning of 2010. He recently got an actual office at WWE HQ to go with his title as "Senior Advisor" to VKM. Basically he's still one of the key people to give Vince input on the wrestling end of the business but the move to give him an office & formal title has been viewed as one meant to make his backstage role more official. Whether it's permanent is still unclear.

Basically JIMGA has it. He is about to embark on the Undertaker portion of his career where he will be active for different stretches of the year and then take a month or two if not more off. He'll be back at the RR and feud with Sheamus to set up a match at WM.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mota

I agree. They had the potential to be pretty good. There was Barrett who is potentially a big time player. Otunga as the schemer. Justin Gabriel as the high flyer. Skip Sheffield was the monster. If they developed each guy it could have been great. But they've pushed them as "Barrett and his cannon fodder". If it's not 5 on 1 they always lose.

I wish they had booked it more like Evolution where the bottom guys actually benefitted from being in the alliance instead of how it turned out.

They should have done the CM Punk move back at SummerSlam (or someone like Punk). Basically having a WWE guy turn and join Nexus. It would have given them a legit name at the top of the stable and allowed the others to develop. Eventually leading to Wade and Punk struggling for control of the group. Instead they wasted 6 months of feuding with the top star and got nothing out of it. Barrett is a joke and the rest are a bunch of jobbers.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Guess what, nobody was ever going to pay to see him anyway. He was an mildly amusing novelty but that's about it.

And as for Evan Bourne, are we really talking about the WWE making a headliner out of a guy who couldn't even make it to top guy status in ROH? Seriously? Even a guy who has IWC tendencies like me knows that isn't a exactly the best idea going.

I think that's the thinking that has caused so much trouble for WWE. That one star has to sell all the tickets and be the draw. Why not have 5-10 solid guys on the roster that people sort of want to see?

Right now it's Cena or bust. They are a serious injury away to him from falling off a cliff. Even right now they have to focus everything on him to avoid having buyrates bottom out. Can you imagine the ratings and buyrates if he isn't in the main event? Who is going to pay to see Orton/Miz or Kane/Edge?

I still contend that the complete removal of the mid-carders from the show has hurt them. The IC/US and Tag Titles were great stepping stones for guys when they actually meant something. It worked for Hart, Rock, Michaels, Austin, HHH, etc. Now that you don't have lower tier belts anymore, you basically just get these pushes out of nowhere for guys like Morrison and Bourne that no one buys. If the IC belt had meant something, and Morrison had been given a nice 6-9 month run while engaging in some heated feuds, he'd have some credibility right now in the main event scene. WWE needs to get away from putting 95% of their energy on promoting who John Cena fights at a PPV and more on the entire card. I mean the last PPV had half its matches decided the week of. I think they even changed the WHC match 2 days before and didn't make much of a deal out of it.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And as for Evan Bourne, are we really talking about the WWE making a headliner out of a guy who couldn't even make it to top guy status in ROH? Seriously? Even a guy who has IWC tendencies like me knows that isn't a exactly the best idea going.

They don't have to make him a main eventer, just take an exciting wrestler and don't castrate him. Let him win about 50% of his matches and when he loses it's a close match. And just as importantly, let him win without it seeming to be a fluke. Give him moments where you'll care about him, because people wanted to care about him initially until they were taught by WWE not to.

That's what some of the talk about having a real mid-card on this thread is all about. If you make your talent come across as believable and not miles and miles away from the main eventers, you can cherry pick guys to come in and out of the main event and it seem legit instead of what you see now when the fans don't buy into it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think that's the thinking that has caused so much trouble for WWE. That one star has to sell all the tickets and be the draw. Why not have 5-10 solid guys on the roster that people sort of want to see?

Actually, I didn't say anywhere that you're wrong about that part. I was just addressing those two guys in particular

I still contend that the complete removal of the mid-carders from the show has hurt them. The IC/US and Tag Titles were great stepping stones for guys when they actually meant something.

Heck, I didn't entirely disagree with you there, although I think the reality of available time + the size of their roster + the number of names on said roster handcuffs them quite a bit.

[Flasch186]

i enjoy reading this thread more than watching any of the shows now...that says something.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mota

They don't have to make him a main eventer, just take an exciting wrestler and don't castrate him. Let him win about 50% of his matches

You're not going to be able to have 15 guys win half of their matches unless they only wrestle every few weeks and only wrestle jobbets

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think that's the thinking that has caused so much trouble for WWE. That one star has to sell all the tickets and be the draw. Why not have 5-10 solid guys on the roster that people sort of want to see?

Right now it's Cena or bust. They are a serious injury away to him from falling off a cliff.

Cena has been injured in the past, and he's taken time off to do movies. Other guys have stepped up. Take a look at the list of prior champions and ppv main eventers. But while he's available, he's the top option. The most over guy. If you're not a fan, there's smackdown, and there's 80% of raw that involves other people.

Evan bourne is not the answer. If he could ever stay healthy doing the www schedule, he'd get more time.

[Comey]

Originally Posted by molson

Cena has been injured in the past, and he's taken time off to do movies. Other guys have stepped up. Take a look at the list of prior champions and ppv main eventers. But while he's available, he's the top option. The most over guy. If you're not a fan, there's smackdown, and there's 80% of raw that involves other people.

Evan bourne is not the answer. If he could ever stay healthy doing the www schedule, he'd get more time.

I don't recall the WWE offering refunds to anyone who didn't get to see Kane at a house show recently? Or Rey Mysterio? How about Jack Swagger or Randy Orton? How about Austin or Rock years ago?

They offered them anyone who got tickets to see Cena and didn't because of his injury. That says an awful lot to me.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Comey

I don't recall the WWE offering refunds to anyone who didn't get to see Kane at a house show recently? Or Rey Mysterio? How about Jack Swagger or Randy Orton? How about Austin or Rock years ago?

They offered them anyone who got tickets to see Cena and didn't because of his injury. That says an awful lot to me.

He's a huge star (bigger than evan bourne even.) That's a good thing, not a liability.

[TexasT]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If you were looking for a more serious answer, best I can tell he's worked one match back in October since suffering a torn bicep back at the beginning of 2010. He recently got an actual office at WWE HQ to go with his title as "Senior Advisor" to VKM. Basically he's still one of the key people to give Vince input on the wrestling end of the business but the move to give him an office & formal title has been viewed as one meant to make his backstage role more official. Whether it's permanent is still unclear.

Yes, I was. Thanks for the info. He 's one of my favorites.

[Comey]

Originally Posted by molson

He's a huge star (bigger than evan bourne even.) That's a good thing, not a liability.

That's not the point (I don't watch anymore, haven't seen Bourne in action). The point is that it's Cena, and then everyone else. I would consider myself a fan of Cena, as I liked him when I watched. But if it's at the point where they have to offer refunds because he's not available, something I really don't recall happening before...that, to me, is an issue of not having enough stars at the top.

[Mota]

Ideally you'll see a constant stream of wrestlers being built up, to replace the wrestlers who are on their way down or leaving. For years this didn't happen. They have a youth movement now, not by choice. The issue is that these young guys did not have the chance to be put over and made into stars before the big names left so now you have the perception that it's John Cena and a bunch of jobbers, and the WWE isn't trying very hard to dispute this.

And Molson, I know you're picking on Evan Bourne here saying he's not the solution and I agree with you. Didn't want him to be used as the savior of the company. He's an exciting wrestler that the fans are into, and he could be used way better than he currently is. I think he could easily be an upper midcarder though and have a decent US title run or Intercontinental.

I wish the WWE listened to the fans more instead of trying to dictate who we should like and shouldn't like. Look at Drew McIntyre, they pushed him down our throats for a whole year and the fans never gave a crap. Finally they gave up on him.

There is a possibility though these days, Daniel Bryan is a guy that they did NOT want to push and because of fan reactions they have been pushing him recently. Let's see how that turns out.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mota

Ideally you'll see a constant stream of wrestlers being built up, to replace the wrestlers who are on their way down or leaving. For years this didn't happen. They have a youth movement now, not by choice.

Agreed, they did run into that a few years ago, and their main response was the brand split. Give twice as many guys the chance to be in main angles, twice as many guys a chance to contend for and hold world titles. It's watered down the product (I can't believe they've had 2 world champions for so long), but it's definitely served it's purpose to build new stars over the last 7-8 years or however long its been now. Orton and Cena are still a part of that youth movement, they're not the guys "on their way down and leaving". They got on top years before they otherwise would have, because of the brand split. 7-8 years ago there was a big main event problem - there was only 2-3 guys that could contend for the world title. Today, there's about a dozen, maybe more. (between the two titles) I still think that's too many.

That's that hard part, I think, knowing when to pull the main even trigger on a guy, because people seem have a very short shelf life on top these days. People want to pull that trigger on everyone on the undercard that has a pulse and that's just not smart long-term booking.

[JonInMiddleGA]

USA Network Orders “WWE Tough Enough� For Monday, 8pm Slot

[Suicane75]

If I could do a pushup i'd so enter.

[Terps]

This version of Tough Enough is going to be nothing more than another NXT. I heard they're using guys from FCW as the 'contestants', instead of people who have no experience.

[Suicane75]

That might make for a much better show than the original Tough Enough or NXT.

[Terps]

Well, most of the NXT guys were from FCW too I think.

[RainMaker]

This opening match between Miz and Morrison was stellar. Wish they'd drop Cole though, he ruins these things.

[molson]

I know not a lot of people watch Smackdown, but (airing tonight), yet another new guy has risen to the status of #1 Contender for the world title. That doesn't guarantee a lifelong career of PPV main events or anything, but it's yet another new guy who will at least get his first exposure in an top-level angle/storyline/match (and from what I've read, it's a pretty good show tonight all-around).

[Mota]

Man, that Smackdown brand has fallen this past year though. Not too long ago it was "the place" if you wanted to watch wrestling. But wow, how many combinations of MVP / Jack Swagger / Kofi Kingston have we seen these past few months? The roster seems tiny, it's the same matchups week after week after week.

I really think they'd be better off cutting the number of matches in half on each show and promoting each one more, giving them more time. That way when there are matches they'll seem fresher, and also more important since you're not doing 1 minute matches anymore so both wrestlers will have a chance to showcase what they're all about. With a one minute match the loser always seems like they're being squashed, or that they must have 0 stamina if they get pinned after 3 moves.

[SirFozzie]

I'll say this... If they give us Alberto Del Rio - Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania, (and guarantee it a decent amount of time).. I will buy it right now. Right. Damn. Now.

[Neon_Chaos]

Guess who finally shows up in the WWE again...



Hell has frozen over... again?

[Comey]

I was actually interested in this game until I saw the ridiculousness of the moves...nevermind now.

[molson]

I can kill a lot of time watching random wrestling videos on youtube. This one though, I had to share. Lanny Poffo. In Memphis.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Comey

I was actually interested in this game until I saw the ridiculousness of the moves...nevermind now.

seriously...wtf is with the comic book physics...why the hell wouldnt they use the same game engine that Smackdown vs. Raw uses instead of the reject from the Matrix

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by saldana

seriously...wtf is with the comic book physics...why the hell wouldnt they use the same game engine that Smackdown vs. Raw uses instead of the reject from the Matrix

It's meant to be a street fighter-like game in the WWE universe. The target audience really isn't going to be people on this board. More for kids like my son.