2014 FIFA World Cup

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Good suggestion, but let's say I'm probably not going to read 464 pages in the next week or two. Is there more of an answer or does "it's complicated" pretty much encapsulate it, as you said.

Sorry, didn't mean to be flip, but I was pressed for time.

To add to what Marc said I would say that with a few exceptions the overall changes in style-of-play/tactics probably isn't quite as marked as in an American sport because of, again, the fact you're dealing with multiple leagues and countries.

For instance, in the 70s the Dutch pioneered the concept of "Total Football" (very broadly the idea that each player could do anything required of them and all were virtually interchangeable). In the 80s, as Marc pointed out, the Italians put together Catenaccio, which is generally considered the most defense of systems in the modern era.

More recently Josep Guardiola at Barcelona in the late 00s created tiki-taka which is characterized by valuing possession over all else, and also very aggressive pressing and a high defensive line in order to get that possession back at all costs. This has now started to morph into teams that still value possession, but will also drive forward aggressively when the opportunity presents (the German national team is doing well at this currently).

Note that another thing that differentiates soccer from, say, baseball, is that a weaker team in soccer often will play much differently when faced with a stronger team, than they would with a similar team. This even applies to the best teams. For instance, when Barcelona were nigh-unbeatable, Real Madrid (consistently considered one of the top sides in the world) changed their style, when playing Barca, to a form of counter-attack, which is generally used by teams that expect to be dominated by the opposition (though this theory, again, is changing).


Anyway, I hope that helps, at least as a start. It's a complex but fascinating history.

[flere-imsaho]

On another topic, you'd think a tactical breakdown of Germany/Brazil would be pretty simple, but Michael Cox at zonalmarking.net once again puts together a fascinating and thorough analysis of what went right and wrong: Germany 7-1 Brazil: Germany record a historic thrashing, winning the game in 30 minutes | Zonal Marking

Cox also writes for The Guardian (and ESPN on occasion) and between him and Jonathan Wilson (also writing for The Guardian), there's a lot of great fascinating reads on teams and tactics. I also recommend anything Brian Phillps writes (he's usually at Grantland), and of course if you play FM, you must read his (IMO) masterpiece on the subject: Pro Vercelli - The Run of Play

[Katon]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Baseball has had multiple live ball and dead ball eras. Has such a thing existed in soccer with more and less offense throughout history?

SI

Early football was much higher-scoring as teams played with only a couple of defenders, little concept of forwards tracking back, and no real pressing. More defensive formations phased in over time, with the 4-4-2 and catenaccio arriving during the 60s (Helenio Herrera's Inter were the poster team for catenaccio well before the 80s) and knocking offense down as they came. The other permanent shift was around the 70s when fitness training reached a level that let teams press for a significant portion of a match, which again was a boost to defense.

Since then it's been more of a cyclical thing depending on the tactical trends du jour and which minor rule tweaks FIFA have made recently, as other people have already covered.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by bbgunn

I'm calling it now... Argentina 2-0.

Surely it all depends on which team takes the most bribes?

[Bobble]

This is soccer's history as I remember it: At first, there weren't any players at all. Just a line of text and you couldn't tell why anything was happening. Then, the players were little colored circles that would wibble and wobble about the pitch. Now, finally in the modern era, the players are tiny pixellated entities that refuse to do what I command them to do and delight in passing directly to the other team all the while asking for a king's ransom in weekly payment.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Critch

Surely it all depends on which team takes the most bribes?

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

To add to what Marc said I would say that with a few exceptions the overall changes in style-of-play/tactics probably isn't quite as marked as in an American sport because of, again, the fact you're dealing with multiple leagues and countries.

Yeah its worth considering that different leagues have a different flavor of play - down to the culture, weather conditions and leniency of referees.

For instance within England the weather is very changeable and teams often play in rain on muddy pitches etc. - this lead to a less technical style of play traditionally than in warmer countries with more consistent weather ... we also traditionally (its changing now) had very lenient refs and more physical play than on the European continent.

Even within a country specific teams might have different cultures and very different styles of play - for instance before Wenger came onto the scene Arsenal for a decade under George Graham had been grinding out 1-0 victories with a formidable defense, Spurs are traditionally considered a 'stylish' team and their supporters tend to rebel if one of their managers tries to play too defensively etc.

PS - If you're interested in the tactical side of the game Zonal Marking is an awesome site; I read it myself

[flere-imsaho]

One thing that's also interesting from a historical perspective (at least to me) is the decline in nation/league-specific styles, in Europe especially. About 20 years ago you could summarize the predominant style of each league, but with the growth of cross-European competition, and the freer flow of players and managers, it's more homogeneous. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Just interesting.


European League Play Circa 1995:

England: Run like hell for 90 minutes. Fitter team wins.

Germany: Play cautiously until you score, then take off a striker. If you're scored upon, just play more cautiously.

Spain: Everyone's an attacker. Numerous solo runs into clumps of "defenders". Frequent amazing goal action.

France: Like Spain until you score, then like Germany.

Holland: A hedonistic pursuit of pure, flowing and artistic football. Scoring is a happy accident, but placing any importance on it is somewhat, you know, vulgar.

Italy: One guy gets to do whatever the hell he wants, while the other 10 rigidly follow "the system", and if you don't want to follow "the system" remember it's the #1 league in the world and I've got 20 guys who want your spot. Because of this, the real action in Serie A is in paying off the referees (with Pierluigi Collina being the exception to the rule).

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Yeah its worth considering that different leagues have a different flavor of play - down to the culture, weather conditions and leniency of referees.

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

One thing that's also interesting from a historical perspective (at least to me) is the decline in nation/league-specific styles, in Europe especially.

Oh sure, make me look bad. Jerk.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I have only seen Messi in games at this World Cup; maybe a few other times that I can't remember at the moment, but he seems like one of the more likeable players out there.

I have seen many times where he seems to be more concerned with trying to keep the play going than diving to try to get a call. In a sport where it seems that it is almost a requirement to fall to the ground when someone even looks your direction that is very refreshing to watch.

Same here. I will also say that one of the reasons I really like Messi is that he doesn't fit the standard profile of a superstar athlete. He's not some Lebron James-like freak of nature. It's very easy to root for a guy who's 5 foot 7 and dominates a game with pure skill.

[ISiddiqui]

Btw, this Sunday's final features teams that represent the homeland of the last two Popes. Pope Benedict XIV from Germany, and Pope Francis from Argentina.

Keep that in mind when you determine your rooting interest .

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Btw, this Sunday's final features teams that represent the homeland of the last two Popes. Pope Benedict XIV from Germany, and Pope Francis from Argentina.

Keep that in mind when you determine your rooting interest .

Whose side is God on?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Bobble

This is soccer's history as I remember it: At first, there weren't any players at all. Just a line of text and you couldn't tell why anything was happening. Then, the players were little colored circles that would wibble and wobble about the pitch. Now, finally in the modern era, the players are tiny pixellated entities that refuse to do what I command them to do and delight in passing directly to the other team all the while asking for a king's ransom in weekly payment.

Gold.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Btw, this Sunday's final features teams that represent the homeland of the last two Popes. Pope Benedict XIV from Germany, and Pope Francis from Argentina.

Keep that in mind when you determine your rooting interest .

So you're saying the US needs to hope to get a pope in the next 4 years.

[ISiddiqui]

Wouldn't hurt.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Bobble

This is soccer's history as I remember it: At first, there weren't any players at all. Just a line of text and you couldn't tell why anything was happening. Then, the players were little colored circles that would wibble and wobble about the pitch. Now, finally in the modern era, the players are tiny pixellated entities that refuse to do what I command them to do and delight in passing directly to the other team all the while asking for a king's ransom in weekly payment.

This. Yes This.

I loved the dot era.

[bhlloy]

I still play in the dot era, FWIW

[flere-imsaho]

Between Bobble, ISiddiqui, miami_fan and Easy_Mac this is without doubt the best page of the thread so far.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Between Bobble, ISiddiqui, miami_fan and Easy_Mac this is without doubt the best page of the thread so far.

Well then stop making posts on it so the page will last longer.

[bbgunn]

Originally Posted by Critch

Surely it all depends on which team takes the most bribes?

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Are you guys 11 or 12 years old? Because you sound like it. You sound like the kids in my English classes at the high school I teach at.

I was going to keep my mouth shut about all of this, but you brought it back, so here goes.

Listen... I'm man enough to admit that I made a flawed argument without thinking it through. I was wrong, and I said that you all win. But did I do something I should be "ashamed" of? Was I a "douchebag"? Hell no. What the hell should I be ashamed of? Since when has making a comment based on how one feels when seeing an event as shocking as Brazil losing 7-1 become something to be "ashamed" of? Since when is one a "douchebag" for debating a point?

I'm not going to be afraid to speak my mind, and I'm not going to be afraid to admit I was wrong.

flere-imsaho constructed a great reply to my assertion that the game was rigged. He brought some evidence and ripped my assertion to shreds. He won the debate - no doubt about it. And he did it WITHOUT calling me names.

I have a lot of respect for flere-imsaho. I, however, don't have a lot of respect for you two, Critch and Blackadar, and nobody else at FOFC should have any respect for you two, either.

Like I said, my assertion was wrong. But you two went waaaay over the line.

[whomario]

Interesting tidbit: first game for both teams after the cup ist against each other in early sebtember

[bbgunn]

Originally Posted by whomario

Interesting tidbit: first game for both teams after the cup ist against each ihrer in early sebtember

Hehe, in Dusseldorf. No matter the outcome of the Cup final, we can all agree that that game will be anything but a friendly.

[cartman]

After Nigeria got eliminated from the World Cup, the head of the national football federation offered to refund the travel expenses of the Nigerian fans that attended. He said he just needed their banking details in order to process the refunds.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by bbgunn

Are you guys 11 or 12 years old? Because you sound like it. You sound like the kids in my English classes at the high school I teach at.

I was going to keep my mouth shut about all of this, but you brought it back, so here goes.

Listen... I'm man enough to admit that I made a flawed argument without thinking it through. I was wrong, and I said that you all win. But did I do something I should be "ashamed" of? Was I a "douchebag"? Hell no. What the hell should I be ashamed of? Since when has making a comment based on how one feels when seeing an event as shocking as Brazil losing 7-1 become something to be "ashamed" of? Since when is one a "douchebag" for debating a point?

I'm not going to be afraid to speak my mind, and I'm not going to be afraid to admit I was wrong.

flere-imsaho constructed a great reply to my assertion that the game was rigged. He brought some evidence and ripped my assertion to shreds. He won the debate - no doubt about it. And he did it WITHOUT calling me names.

I have a lot of respect for flere-imsaho. I, however, don't have a lot of respect for you two, Critch and Blackadar, and nobody else at FOFC should have any respect for you two, either.

Like I said, my assertion was wrong. But you two went waaaay over the line.

Your speech embiggens the smallest man

[ISiddiqui]

Waaay over the line? That is not a very far line then... I mean I'd go over that line while asleep, dreaming of WC players taking bribes... oh crap...

[cartman]

Vlaar's PK almost rolled into the goal after the save.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by bbgunn

blah blah blah

Like I said, my assertion was wrong. But you two went waaaay over the line.

To summarise, you made some really stupid argument, a lot of people called you out on the stupid argument, you said "ok, you guys win" then slunk off, I made a joke about said stupid argument, then you threw this hissy fit about how wronged you'd been and lines being crossed, and respect and all that other crap.

Not sure what line I crossed, I didnt do any namecalling. Even if I thought you were an idiot I would never lower myself to namecalling on FOFC.

One thing you did get right though is that Flere did a good job of addressing your idiotic argument. Well done Flere.

[bbgunn]

Originally Posted by Critch

Not sure what line I crossed, I didnt do any namecalling. Even if I thought you were an idiot I would never lower myself to namecalling on FOFC.

You know what, you're right. I went back and looked, and you didn't do any namecalling, just some teasing. I'm sorry about that, man. I apologize. Are we cool now?

And yes, I did slink off and say you guys won. I never denied that. It was proven that I was wrong, and I knew I was wrong, and I wanted this thread to get back to talking about the World Cup, so I dropped it.

And I'll say it for you: Everybody, I was an idiot. I was an idiot. I was an idiot. Put it on record. And feel free to make fun of me and bribes anytime.

Now, let's get back to talking about the World Cup.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by cartman

Vlaar's PK almost rolled into the goal after the save.

I wonder if the ref was watching that at the end of the video or would have missed it. Can you imagine that controversy in a WC semi final? I also wonder if the goal-line technology would have caught it in time.

[BishopMVP]

Does Vlaar hit that with his head or shoulder there? I can't really tell with that video quality.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cartman

After Nigeria got eliminated from the World Cup, the head of the national football federation offered to refund the travel expenses of the Nigerian fans that attended. He said he just needed their banking details in order to process the refunds.

I'm so glad I caught this before it scrolled up the thread too far.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Does Vlaar hit that with his head or shoulder there? I can't really tell with that video quality.

He ducks under it I believe .. quite clever of him to do so as I presume he was anticipating the slim chance of it going in, its happened before.

Penalty spins in after save

[MIJB#19]

Just pulled on my orange t-shirt for one more game. Let's win this game of losers!

[Abe Sargent]

Wow PK and a false yellow (shlouda been a red)

[PilotMan]

Should've been a red. Unreal.

[Easy Mac]

Well that was easy

[MIJB#19]

It's only right that a half-decent referee gets the third place match.

[bhlloy]

That's a "sorry you got beat 7-1 in your home country" hallmark card. Absolute gift that they aren't down to 10. And it was outside the box

[Easy Mac]

Way, robben got a yellow for that, but a scoring foul in the box isn't a red?

[MIJB#19]

I stand corrected, half-decent was too kind.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Way, robben got a yellow for that, but a scoring foul in the box isn't a red?

Crazy. To equate them as equal transgressions is just stupid.

[Abe Sargent]

And Brazil are falling again...

[MIJB#19]

Deja vu?

[Easy Mac]

This has turned pathetic again

[bulletsponge]

when a Blind man can score on you, you know your stinkin. never in all my life have i even seen the US get humiliated at this lvl

[bhlloy]

There are going to be instructional videos on how not to defend coming out of these two games

[MIJB#19]

It would have been nice to have the assistant referees from the Netherlands - Costa Rica game. They proved to be able to get the offside calls right.

[MIJB#19]

Oscar living up to his name.

[Easy Mac]

Despite being up two nil it still feels like the dutch are playing for a nil nil draw.

[bhlloy]

You would have to say that in terms of technical ability, the Brazilians are probably in the bottom half of teams at this tournament. Outside of Neymar and maybe Oscar, just not much quality. So many terrible touches around midfield and balls given away in terrible areas have killed them the last two games.