Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Atocep

It's meant to be a street fighter-like game in the WWE universe. The target audience really isn't going to be people on this board. More for kids like my son.

Then why waste the money and go after the old timers that young kids may not recognize? Doesn't make sense to me.

[molson]

Miz retains, and Alberto Del Rio wins the Rumble.

Edit: Though they may have missed a chance to do the true underdog-winner Rumble angle that's never been done - Santino was the runner-up after doing the hide-under-the-ring spot, and the crowd popped for it.

And Kevin Nash and Booker T appear, but I figure both were one-shot deals since neither accomplished much (though Nash was hugely over)

[RainMaker]

Usually not a good sign when the biggest pops of the night are for a 51 and 45 year old guy who haven't wrestled for your organization in years.

[Toddzilla]

Other than the opener, what a snoozefest.

Also, Booker T and Nash have signed deals longer than just one night - Booker may have hooked up for a year or so.

This really dumps TNA's plans for a Main Event Mafia reunion tonight right in the shitter, don't it?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

This really dumps TNA's plans for a Main Event Mafia reunion tonight right in the shitter, don't it?

Which seems likely to have been as much the point as anything (although Nash into the HoF might also be a factor).

That said, Vince may have done TNA a favor, it's not as though the ratings were noticeably better for the older guys & the money & airtime is probably better spent elsewhere. Plus, Booker in particular was reportedly someone the TNA locker room got pretty tired of because of his attitude.

[Neon_Chaos]

The best thing about the entire PPV was CM Punk.

I wish they had stuck him in the final four, instead of having John Cena go apeshit on the entire Nexus.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Usually not a good sign when the biggest pops of the night are for a 51 and 45 year old guy who haven't wrestled for your organization in years.

They got the predictable surprise/nostalgia pops (not unlike what Roddy Piper always gets), but Cena was the most over.

[RainMaker]

Of course Cena is over, he's pretty much the only main eventer on the roster other than Orton.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Of course Cena is over, he's pretty much the only main eventer on the roster other than Orton.

You're still on this?

You don't watch the shows. And you whiffed on your Royal Rumble guaranteed winner.

Maybe the issue is in the definition of "main eventer." I watch the shows, I see at least a dozen guys who are credible world title holders/ppv main eventers (and there's at least a dozen guys who have actually done both in the last year or two - some caught on, some didn't, but almost everyone with a pulse gets a chance.)

Cena's the top guy, I think Miz has surpassed Orton at the moment for #2, and Miz/Cena appears to the be Mania main event. (I'm sure by this time next year people will be whining in this thread about Miz.)

Can you point to a year/promotion that had what you feel is "appropriate number of main eventers"? No time in WWE history is remotely close to the current one in terms of number of main eventers/mingling amongst the card. The NWO WCW years had a lot of credible main eventers running around, but only Goldberg was a "new star", everyone else was just a high-priced import. ECW shuffled the main event some, but that was really caused by people jumping ship.

Edit: You had a problem with Nash/Booker T getting the biggest pops (when you thought that's what happened), but then when you heard Cena actually got the biggest reaction - you had a problem with that too. So who should be getting the big pops if not the biggest star and/or the former main evetners making a surprise return? Trent Barretta?

[RainMaker]

Miz isn't a main eventer. You aren't buying a PPV to see him. He's a great performer and I think has the potential to be a main eventer if booked right, but sorry, he's losing matches to Jerry Lawler. No one is taking him serious and you aren't selling PPVs with a guy like that in the main event. Just because you throw someone in the main event and/or put a title on them doesn't make them a main eventer.

As to pointing to a time when you had an appropriate number of main eventers, you can probably say a couple years ago. You had Cena, Orton, HBK, HHH, Jericho, Undertaker, and Edge. Over half those guys are gone now and they haven't replaced them with anyone.

Everyone saw this coming as their stars were aging and they refused to build up anyone new. Now they are stuck with Del Rio and Miz in their two main event matches at Wrestlemania. It's safe to say this will have a historically low buyrate.

[RainMaker]

As for last night's PPV, I liked both title matches. I thought Edge/Ziggler was exceptional and the crowd seemed to really be into it. Vicky is such a good heel manager.

Didn't really like the addition of 10 people to the Rumble though. It shortened the number of near-eliminations and didn't allow for enough big spots. It felt kind of rushed, especially near the end. They should either go back to 30 or extend the 40-man Rumble by a half hour to get everything good into it.

[molson]

So if not Miz and Del Rio, who should be pushed now as main eventers? And "a couple of years ago" (I don't remember 2008 being a spectacular year for the WWE, but I'll just go with this), which undercard guys on the roster should have been pushed more to deal with the eventual departure of HBK and the Undertaker? And which of those "big 7" that you mentioned should have been fired/de-pushed to build up those newer guys?

[RainMaker]

There isn't anyone to replace Miz and Del Rio. That's the problem. There are no legitimate heels out there right now, especially on the main event side.

As for guys who should have been pushed.

Wade Barrett - The Nexus-Cena feud was a perfect opportunity to put him over on a main eventer and thrust him into the top of the company as one of their biggest heels. It was also an opportunity to build some strong mid-carders from the group. They did neither. They had Barrett lose just about every match he was in and turned the rest of the group into jobbers.

Sheamus - They booked him strong at first and then buried him. They should have put him over on HHH at Wrestlemania last year.

Miz - I'm fine with him being the chickenshit heel of the group, but don't job him out to Jerry Lawler.

John Morrison - They sort of never get him into a good feud. He would have been perfect to fill that HBK role of putting on that 20 minute match at every PPV that blew people away. The Rumble would have been a perfect opportunity to have him feud with Miz and put on a great match. He wouldn't need to win, but it would have given him credibility. But God forbid a PPV title match not involve Cena or Orton.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

As for last night's PPV, I liked both title matches. I thought Edge/Ziggler was exceptional and the crowd seemed to really be into it. Vicky is such a good heel manager.

Interesting, as that differs from pretty much everything I read last night, summed up by one recap that mentioned how it had to be worrisome that the most over person involved in the match was a middle-aged woman who doesn't wrestle.

Not saying you're wrong, just noting how the recaps don't always match personal impressions.

[Maple Leafs]

Ordered the Rumble with friends, making it my first WWE PPV in years. A few random observations about the actual rumble:

- The spot with Morrison was unbelievable. I was putting one of the kids to bed and heard the room explode. When I got downstairs everyone was insisting that I rewind and rewatch it. Not sure how this guy isn't more over.

- Was shocked at the complete lack of reaction to the pair of Cena/Orton teases. Talk about a disconnect with your audience -- it's like they were expecting a Hogan/Warrior moment, and they got crickets.

- What was the deal with Riley getting eliminated. Seemed like a lot of confusion... was he supposed to be stay in and they had to improv the interference spot later on?

- The Punk/Nexus stuff was fun and probably the only way to make the first half watchable. Why go to 40 guys? Who convinced them that adding 10 jobbers to the match would sell better?

- I thought the tease with Santino at the end was brilliant, and it actually had me believing they were going to give him the win -- right up until they had Cole start yelling like it was already over, which is always a giveaway that it's not. Easily my biggest wrestling pet peeve. Do they really think that having the announcer yell "We have a new champion" like an idiot will make anyone think it's going to happen?

[RainMaker]

The Cena/Orton teases were funny. It only works if these guys haven't feuded for the past 5 years.

I think Riley's elimination was a botch. It happened in the background and it looked like he slipped off the apron. Cena sort of looked at him confused when it happened. The announcers also didn't realize that he was out until like 5 minutes later when they started asking where he was and then went silent.

That brings up another minor pet peeve with announcers. I understand the Cole heel role and like it, but he's overdoing it. To the point that it overshadows the match. They barely mentioned Nash being eliminated because they were talking about other stuff. And it soured an otherwise great WWE Championship match. JR was perfect and knew when to be quiet and when to talk. Cole sort of just overdoes his act too much, he needs to tone it down.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

- I thought the tease with Santino at the end was brilliant, and it actually had me believing they were going to give him the win -- right up until they had Cole start yelling like it was already over, which is always a giveaway that it's not. Easily my biggest wrestling pet peeve. Do they really think that having the announcer yell "We have a new champion" like an idiot will make anyone think it's going to happen?

This bothers me as well. Vince McMahon was horrible with this as well. When they oversell something they must realize that people figure out what the result will be.

[rjolley]

Hated that ending.

And can we get a heel turn from Cena?

[SirFozzie]

For someone who is accused of holding down others, Cena made others look like a billion bucks in that rumble match.

[Comey]

People on another board are praising the ending.

I, having only read the matches, can see a Cena heel turn coming at EC. It would be an amazing time to do it...but I think it may be just wishful thinking than anything else (I actually like Cena quite a bit, but I don't watch wrestling because I have no cable and forget about justin.tv, and I do think he's done what he can as a face right now).

[RainMaker]

They aren't turning Cena heel. The company is desperately short of faces and they won't push a mid-carder.

Although I do think he needs a change of character and would have loved to have seen him turn heel during the Nexus feud.

[rjolley]

The Nexus feud would've been a great time to do it.

[Atocep]

What the hell is up with the Jerry Lawler push?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Atocep

What the hell is up with the Jerry Lawler push?

It would have been a fun angle 15 years ago. "Old veteran lucking into one last run". It seems a little late and out of left field with Lawler in his 60s though.

I guess it's something different though. And they avoid burning out another real challenger/matchup for Miz before Mania.

In addition to building new stars (which as I've said, I think the WWE has been doing pretty well), I'd like to see them use more one-off challengers for the titles to keep potential matchups as fresh as possible. It's always been against the WWE's philosophy to do one-shot deals or short-term contracts, but I think it would help a lot to bring in Booker T, Sting, indy sensation of the moment, etc. to do short programs with the World Title holders. Otherwise, a guy like Miz will burn out all of his available matchups within a year or two (especially at the rate people in this thread want new guys constantly elevated up to that level). You end up with a glut of guys that you've cycled through, and some will inevitable get overshadowed in the numbers game. But by then, you've already blown your load with them and it's no longer "special" for them to be challenging at the top level (Sheamus, Swagger)

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by molson

It would have been a fun angle 15 years ago. "Old veteran lucking into one last run". It seems a little late and out of left field with Lawler in his 60s though.

I guess it's something different though. And they avoid burning out another real challenger/matchup for Miz before Mania.

In addition to building new stars (which as I've said, I think the WWE has been doing pretty well), I'd like to see them use more one-off challengers for the titles to keep potential matchups as fresh as possible. It's always been against the WWE's philosophy to do one-shot deals or short-term contracts, but I think it would help a lot to bring in Booker T, Sting, indy sensation of the moment, etc. to do short programs with the World Title holders. Otherwise, a guy like Miz will burn out all of his available matchups within a year or two (especially at the rate people in this thread want new guys constantly elevated up to that level).

I agree. I'm just having a hard time buying Jerry Lawler in the role he's being portrayed after listening to him call matches for so long.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

So if not Miz and Del Rio, who should be pushed now as main eventers? And "a couple of years ago" (I don't remember 2008 being a spectacular year for the WWE, but I'll just go with this), which undercard guys on the roster should have been pushed more to deal with the eventual departure of HBK and the Undertaker? And which of those "big 7" that you mentioned should have been fired/de-pushed to build up those newer guys?

Do you really need to depush someone to make someone else look credible though? It's just a matter of pushing the idea that there's 9-10 guys that could be in the main event at any given time, and another 10 guys that could easily fill in occasionally on a lower PPV. I think the way they push certain wrestlers as idiots (like Daniel Bryan or Jack Swagger and the eagle) is a conscious choice to put a huge separation between the midcard and the main events.

If the management doesn't take a wrestler seriously and insists on pushing this down our throats constantly, they shouldn't put them on TV at all.

[RainMaker]

I read that this is the first Raw PPV Championship match to not feature Orton, Cena, or HHH in like 4 years.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

Do you really need to depush someone to make someone else look credible though?

I'd say pretty much so, or at least "depushed" is how it's going to be perceived by the IWC. I mean, somebody has to lose & at some point they're going to lose more than one in a row. That's a form of depushing.

"To be the man ..." applies here I think, and if you're one of those guys at the top rung, losing a couple of high profile matches to someone who isn't basically turns him into that guy while you're diminished. There are a few people who reach a point where they aren't damaged by loses (HBK can lose more than most ppl IMO, so could Taker, just for a couple of examples).

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mota

Do you really need to depush someone to make someone else look credible though? It's just a matter of pushing the idea that there's 9-10 guys that could be in the main event at any given time, and another 10 guys that could easily fill in occasionally on a lower PPV. I think the way they push certain wrestlers as idiots (like Daniel Bryan or Jack Swagger and the eagle) is a conscious choice to put a huge separation between the midcard and the main events.

If the management doesn't take a wrestler seriously and insists on pushing this down our throats constantly, they shouldn't put them on TV at all.

Yes, you do need to depush someone to push others. You can try to mitigate the damage and keep the lower guys more credible, absolutely, but by definition, the more guys you try to push at the same time, the more watered down all those pushes are going to be, and the less credible all those main eventers are going to be. It's a zero sum game.

Take Sheamus, dominant run, leading to a WWE championship in his first year in the company. Either he stays a dominant long term champion (which means he, and not Miz, or any other new guy) is the #1 heel on the brand. Or, he loses. In which case people complain that he's "buried" (And during that burial period, they tried to keep him strong by, for example - destroying Daniel Bryan in about 5 seconds - which of course caused the internet to go apeshit), and also winning the King of The Ring tournament. I know people would like it if he killed Cena, HHH, and Orton clean, but then what? Now you're back to having 1 dominant star.

The more guys you try to push, the more guys are going to have to lose matches and look bad on occasion. The only way to have 10 guys on a 2 hours show all be dominant is to keep them away from each other, and bring back the 1980s Saturday morning style jobber matches. (I don't think it's a terrible idea to bring those back to some degree). They're kind of doing a version of that by pushing Lawler short-term.

There are people who hate when Cena/Orton have ANY success, and there's just no pleasing those people, because Cena/Orton aren't going to become full-time jobbers (nor should they). These guys are assets to the company and they're in the prime of the careers. And unlike every other main event WWE/WWF face in history - they don't truly dominate the main event angles. They don't even appear on half of the WWE's programing (Smackdown). They both dabble in the midcard to elevate guys. This isn't 2002 where HHH starts every show with a 30 minute promo and then wrestles in a 30 minute main event, on both RAW and Smackdown, every week. (I would have loved for even one other guy, ala Orton, to help balance out HHH - it was just HHH then. Now we have HHH/Cena/Orton, and a bunch of young guys who were pushed very suddenly that get the better of them on occasion, spend plenty of time in the main event storylines and that's only 1/2 of WWE's programming).

The Lawler push would have been better 15 years ago, but it wouldn't have happened 15 years ago. Do you think there's any way in hell Austin, Hart, HBK, or the Undertaker would agree to work an angle like that? Austin was only allowed to interact with 1 or 2 other main eventers. Cena has random feuds with Miz last year when he was nothing, teams with R-Truth for no particular reason, works entire summer-long angles with a bunch of rookies. This is all new ground.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Cena has random feuds with Miz last year when he was nothing, teams with R-Truth for no particular reason, works entire summer-long angles with a bunch of rookies. This is all new ground.

And manages to do it without getting arrested, without any scuttlebutt about how badly he treats guys backstage (or puppies, underage girls, or grandmothers), without any negative p.r., without damaging his pop nor his merchandise sales.

Tell me again why there's something wrong with building a business around him?

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And manages to do it without getting arrested, without any scuttlebutt about how badly he treats guys backstage (or puppies, underage girls, or grandmothers), without any negative p.r., without damaging his pop nor his merchandise sales.

Tell me again why there's something wrong with building a business around him?

I think the general reaction to that is, "nothing wrong with building the company around him, he just needs to lose cleanly to Sheamus and Miz, and not main event PPVs as much." (i.e., push him like they're pushing R-Truth now, I guess, which I believe would count as a major de-push.)

But ya, you can't under-estimate having a solid, stable guy in that spot too. I think that's going into Miz's push as well.

[SirFozzie]

if you're going to push Cena and R-Truth the same, you're nuts.

[Flasch186]

someone let me know when I should come back and watch and what exactly...

[Terps]

So the videos for 2/21/11 that aired last night, any guesses?

It's got to be Sting, or the return of the Undertaker.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So Booker T is the newest member of the Smackdown announce team, replacing Matt Striker.

I thought Striker was generally considered to be doing a good job & was fairly popular in his commentator role?

edit to add: Oh, and here's Jim Ross' blog take on the Sting situation FWIW
Sting To WWE: "Amazing that some fans actually swear that there is going to be an Undertaker vs. Sting match this year at Wrestlemania 27 in Atlanta. I would be shocked if that occurred but at the same time everyone has the right to fantasize about dream matches that they personally want to see. I still say that there would likely be a large part of the WWE TV audience that only watches WWE that would have to become familiar with the Stinger's body of work. Not that it couldn't be done, it could, but that matter would have to be addressed."

"Cutting to the chase, I don't see Sting in WWE any time soon and especially not in the ring vs. the Undertaker in the Georgia Dome. I do think that Sting would be well served to explore potential marketing opportunities with WWE especially considering that all his 'greatest hits' which were in WCW are now owned by WWE."

[molson]

I don't think Sting's coming to the WWE, but I do enjoy the fake PPV promo posters people come up with.

[Maple Leafs]

I look forward to the WWE's completely horrible ripoff of this moment...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Okay, that was definitely worth the time it took to watch. While that apparently happened in CZW, I'm not sure the gimmick could have come from anywhere except Chikara, regular home of the Osirian Portal (aka the hypno dudes in the bit).

[Terps]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't think Sting's coming to the WWE, but I do enjoy the fake PPV promo posters people come up with.

Yeah, I watched it again, it's for the Undertaker. Which is lame.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

edit to add: Oh, and here's Jim Ross' blog take on the Sting situation FWIW
Sting To WWE: "Amazing that some fans actually swear that there is going to be an Undertaker vs. Sting match this year at Wrestlemania 27 in Atlanta. I would be shocked if that occurred but at the same time everyone has the right to fantasize about dream matches that they personally want to see. I still say that there would likely be a large part of the WWE TV audience that only watches WWE that would have to become familiar with the Stinger's body of work. Not that it couldn't be done, it could, but that matter would have to be addressed."

"Cutting to the chase, I don't see Sting in WWE any time soon and especially not in the ring vs. the Undertaker in the Georgia Dome. I do think that Sting would be well served to explore potential marketing opportunities with WWE especially considering that all his 'greatest hits' which were in WCW are now owned by WWE."

I wouldn't be surprised if that's just JR helping out WWE and throwing people for a swerve. I can't imagine that video is for the Undertaker and Vince does need something big for WM. And I don't know why Sting in the WWE for even just one night would be such a big stretch.

If it's for the Undertaker, that's pretty pathetic.

[Maple Leafs]

HOW ARE WE NOT HYPNOTIZED?

[CU Tiger]

That was great...all except for "superman"

[PilotMan]

This fits in perfectly here.

The 9 Most Unintentionally Depressing Pro Wrestling Gimmicks


hxxp://www.cracked.com/article_18918_the-9-most-unintentionally-depressing-pro-wrestling-gimmicks.html

[JonInMiddleGA]

snip from the IWC

TNA president Dixie Carter has teased that there could be a TNA Hall of Fame coming down the line

Giggle. Snort.

Somebody please put us out of this pathetic jock-sniffing bitch's misery.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

snip from the IWC



Giggle. Snort.

Somebody please put us out of this pathetic jock-sniffing bitch's misery.

TNA really blew a great opportunity with all their young talent and the addition of guys like Hardy and Van Dam......I still wish she would have brought Heyman in, no matter the cost and stayed the hell out of the way.

[DeToxRox]

Pretty excited as Jericho's new book just came in the mail. I pre-ordered it a while ago, not sure why I got it already when I thought it came out in like two weeks, but regardless I cannot wait to read it.

[DeToxRox]

Rock on Raw and he is fucking bringing it.

[miami_fan]

That was the best 10 mins I have seen in pro wrestling in years.

[Comey]

I watched most of tonight, knowing he was coming. And I still marked hard. Such a great time. It also showed how great the Michael Cole character has become; I thought Cole stole a great moment when the email alert went off, and the TV cut to him laughing so smugly. That made me laugh a lot, too. It was the perfect reaction.

[Neon_Chaos]

The Rock is the fucking man. I marked out as well.

Edit:

The build up before he came out was ridiculously intense, and the pop was something I hadn't heard in a long time.