Game of Thrones on HBO

[booradley]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Uh... No. I'm pretty sure in the book I read Tyrion did NOT get Greyscale. Jon Connigton got it. A character who was first introduced in Book 5.

Giving Greyscale to Mormont was much more impactful and interesting than giving it to some new character we barely know or care about.

Well, shit. I'm at the part where Tyrion is pricking himself to see if he got greyscale, and I just assumed ... You can never go wrong by assuming, I assume.

[Drake]

GRRM ends up going down in history as the most prolific writer of HBO fan fiction ever.

[Chief Rum]

I appreciate that we all have our own viewing experiences and expectations but I thank heaven I am not as picky as some of you. I'm enjoying it just fine.

I am sure that at some level being so detailed and demanding is helpful and probably also indicates a greater level of intelligence, but it sure as hell robs a lot of the fun out of life.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I am sure that at some level being so detailed and demanding is helpful and probably also indicates a greater level of intelligence

I dunno about that, I'm just guilty of nitpicking.

but it sure as hell robs a lot of the fun out of life.

I still enjoy GoT vs. a lot of shows that I stopped watching for reasons of poor personal entertainment returns (Walking Dead, Sons of Anarchy, The Strain, Outlander, Orphan Black, etc.), so I might be giving the wrong impression with all the complaints. GoT is particularly maddening for me because of it's logical inconsistencies, some times it's a well constructed show about characters playing deep, strategic, political games with each other, other moments it's a hot mess about those same characters acting like absolute morons in conflict with everything they've done up to that point, sometimes within the same show. Now the pace is flying all over the place, and it almost takes effort to slip in and out of understanding and/or disbelief with every other scene.

[molson]

I'd be such a shitty TV or movie critic because I like almost everything I watch. I wouldn't watch something if I didn't like it. I'm usually able to connect with the story the storyteller is telling, not and be bogged down by other things. I couldn't care less about the mechanics of how Euron built his ships, or how many ships he really has, because those things really aren't a part of the story. I just want to see him dramatically fuck shit up and then see where things go from there. I don't want to see some conversation about why we didn't see anyone in Dragonstone if the director thinks that's not part of the story and that the scene works better if they all arrive dramatically in silence to this empty and mysterious place. There are a lot of times in shows like this when people say they wanted some extra exposition scene here or there, but I think there's almost always a reason a writer or director or editor makes an artistic choice not to do that, for pacing or dramatic effect. When I'm reviewing an opposing legal brief I'm constantly thinking about what's not on the page and why, but with a show, I sit back and only really care about what's on the screen. So I've always been able to enjoy stuff way more dumbed-down than GOT (like pro wrestling).

[Groundhog]

I'm still enjoying it. Some characters and scenes bug me, but I don’t really blame the show runners for it so much. My enjoyment of the books really took a hit following the 3rd book, with the different PoV character chapters ranging wildly from entertaining to “Oh boy, another Arya/Drowned God/etc chapter to slog through…”. I’ve said it in the book thread, but I’m not really a Fantasy guy, and a large part of the reason why is the unbalanced ratio of plot:worldbuilding. I think GRRM did a great job of not slipping into that pit trap and exploring the history of Westeros pretty organically and within the ‘Stark/Lannister’ plotline in books 1 through 3, but he really wandered off the path starting in book 4, and the “fast forward” stuff is the show writers attempt at bringing this thing to a conclusion before the actors that play the Stark kids die of old age. I don’t mind them playing loose and fast with timelines, because we don’t need a season long wait for Varys to travel back and forth between continents – in medieval times, it took a long time to travel, assemble generals and troops, etc. My brain doesn’t have a hard time reconciling the fact that weeks or months may pass between scenes.

[stevew]

So to credit Vox or something, but if your friend had some random skin infection, wouldn't the first move be to attempt to scrape it off and apply medicine? (Assuming no doctor was nearby)

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by stevew

So to credit Vox or something, but if your friend had some random skin infection, wouldn't the first move be to attempt to scrape it off and apply medicine? (Assuming no doctor was nearby)

I think the fear is it's just too dangerous to do. The old guy even said that while it worked, the guy who performed the treatment got greyscale and died.

[Groundhog]

The maester also made some sort of comment about both age of the patient and the stage of the disease too, if I remember correctly. Sounds like it's just incredibly risky, especially with all that cheesy gunk squirting out... and on a related note, I wonder if the grossout segue is here to stay for all of season 7.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I appreciate that we all have our own viewing experiences and expectations but I thank heaven I am not as picky as some of you. I'm enjoying it just fine.

I greatly enjoy the show on the whole. There are just some things that don't work for me. In this most recent episode it just so happens that the major action of the episode didn't work for me. That's too bad. It didn't ruin my day, week, or even hour. I'm still enjoying the show and quite looking forward to next week.


EDIT: removed some stuff that might be pretty inflammatory, no matter how justified. I'll just use ignore instead. Don't mind me.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I'm still enjoying it. Some characters and scenes bug me, but I don’t really blame the show runners for it so much. My enjoyment of the books really took a hit following the 3rd book, with the different PoV character chapters ranging wildly from entertaining to “Oh boy, another Arya/Drowned God/etc chapter to slog through…”. I’ve said it in the book thread, but I’m not really a Fantasy guy, and a large part of the reason why is the unbalanced ratio of plot:worldbuilding. I think GRRM did a great job of not slipping into that pit trap and exploring the history of Westeros pretty organically and within the ‘Stark/Lannister’ plotline in books 1 through 3, but he really wandered off the path starting in book 4, and the “fast forward” stuff is the show writers attempt at bringing this thing to a conclusion before the actors that play the Stark kids die of old age. I don’t mind them playing loose and fast with timelines, because we don’t need a season long wait for Varys to travel back and forth between continents – in medieval times, it took a long time to travel, assemble generals and troops, etc. My brain doesn’t have a hard time reconciling the fact that weeks or months may pass between scenes.

Yeah, it appears that people are teleporting from continent to continent from one episode to another. But if you look at Bran and Rickon and how much they've changed from season to season, it is safe to assume that months could pass between episodes. That's what I use to make it more believable for me, at least.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by molson

I'd be such a shitty TV or movie critic because I like almost everything I watch. I wouldn't watch something if I didn't like it. I'm usually able to connect with the story the storyteller is telling, not and be bogged down by other things. I couldn't care less about the mechanics of how Euron built his ships, or how many ships he really has, because those things really aren't a part of the story. I just want to see him dramatically fuck shit up and then see where things go from there. I don't want to see some conversation about why we didn't see anyone in Dragonstone if the director thinks that's not part of the story and that the scene works better if they all arrive dramatically in silence to this empty and mysterious place. There are a lot of times in shows like this when people say they wanted some extra exposition scene here or there, but I think there's almost always a reason a writer or director or editor makes an artistic choice not to do that, for pacing or dramatic effect. When I'm reviewing an opposing legal brief I'm constantly thinking about what's not on the page and why, but with a show, I sit back and only really care about what's on the screen. So I've always been able to enjoy stuff way more dumbed-down than GOT (like pro wrestling).

I get this, and I still enjoy theatre and film, but my job is performance and performance analysis so I'm naturally going to parse a story. I've had the good fortune to work with one of the best new play directors in America, and I learned a lot about story construction from him. It's very hard for me to watch anything without falling back on some of the basics he taught me. That doesn't mean I'm elitist in what stories I like, for example I'm a sucker for end of the world stories of all kinds, but I have a very difficult time interacting with a performance without studying it as well.

[Edward64]

Sure there are things that I think are "off" but all-in-all I am enjoying the show.

I did enjoy this week's episode. Lots of good progression & stuff happening

[Chief Rum]

I remember I used to get into long debates with cthomer here about either movies or TV shows (I can't remember which) about the viewing experience. And it really did come down to that I could shut my brain off and just accept a story as it unfolds and enjoy it, without letting inconsistencies or having to suspend disbelief get in the way, while he couldn't.

Molson put it better than I did. I think he and I watch these shows on a similar level. JPhillips (just looking up as a recent example) is more like cthomer. Neither way is right or wrong, just different ways we all process an entertainment experience. And as I stated above, I'm happy my brain has settled into the mode that it does because it feels like the orher way makes things less entertaining and harder to enjoy.

All that said, most have responded to say they still very much enjoy watching these shows, even if they can't ignore these issues mid-watch, do maybe it's just that I am overestimating the critique and how much it reflects their enjoyment of the show.

[thesloppy]

I enjoy picking shit apart to some extent, and I suppose sometimes it very well might dull the enjoyment of something, but I like to think that if that's the case then it might also serve to heighten the enjoyment of something well done (or very poorly done, for that matter). I consistently watch a lot of trash cinema (currently weird 70s japanese stuff like Female Prisoner Scorpion and Hanzo the Razor) so I don't think I'm hung up on quality, so much as I am consistency, and it is true that sometimes criticism can be half the fun of watching something for me.

It's probably also worth something that negative criticism makes for more (if not always better) conversation, especially on the internet, as "that was another good episode" and "I liked XXXX scene" have limits of expression, whereas "what the hell was up with XXXX?!?" has seemingly endless possibilities!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I enjoy picking shit apart to some extent, and I suppose sometimes it very well might dull the enjoyment of something, but I like to think that if that's the case then it might also serve to heighten the enjoyment of something well done (or very poorly done, for that matter).

You just described how we watch wrestling here.

I totally get it.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think the fear is it's just too dangerous to do. The old guy even said that while it worked, the guy who performed the treatment got greyscale and died.

Agreed. Also, I'm sure it's more than just "medicine." I am sure it's a pretty rare, special mixture that the Maesters kept for themselves, because they didn't want random people trying it due to the fact that trying to do so was very likely to lead to further infections.

[thesloppy]

..and I totally used to watch a lot of wrestling, (though I don't have enough patience for it these days) for whatever that's worth.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Agreed. Also, I'm sure it's more than just "medicine." I am sure it's a pretty rare, special mixture that the Maesters kept for themselves, because they didn't want random people trying it due to the fact that trying to do so was very likely to lead to further infections.

I'm putting my money on excrement & porridge.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Agreed. Also, I'm sure it's more than just "medicine." I am sure it's a pretty rare, special mixture that the Maesters kept for themselves, because they didn't want random people trying it due to the fact that trying to do so was very likely to lead to further infections.

I think that's probably right as well, but, just like Euron potentially having some magic on his side, the show needs to explain that or it will end up feeling a bit weird, like... "wait the cure for grayscale is just to cut it off?" They implied that age was a factor in the risk, but also how advanced the disease had progressed was a big part of it too, in which case... why doesn't everyone just know that if you get grayscale you scrape that shit off right away, and the whole thing feels just a bit off. The maester did imply that immediate amputation is a known fix, but that's not what I'm referring to of course.

Whatever power Euron has I feel like needed to be established before his giant fleet sneaks up on Yara and Theon. With the grayscale stuff, its still an ongoing thing and right now I just have questions, but they could still be answered quite satisfactorily.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Yeah, I can't imagine they will explore Euron's character much; there just isn't enough time. I'd imagine the supernatural things surrounding Euron are going to be either completely nonexistent or the horn.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by molson

I'd be such a shitty TV or movie critic because I like almost everything I watch. I wouldn't watch something if I didn't like it. I'm usually able to connect with the story the storyteller is telling, not and be bogged down by other things. I couldn't care less about the mechanics of how Euron built his ships, or how many ships he really has, because those things really aren't a part of the story. I just want to see him dramatically fuck shit up and then see where things go from there.

I find myself placing expectations on shows and adjusting to them. Breaking Bad, or Better Call Saul, or a few other greats, I am happy to meticulously break down every little detail and if any part of the story feels even slightly out of place its worth discussing. I don't care if you don't do that and just sit down and enjoy. But these shows are great enough and consistent enough that I get to do that and it greatly enhances my enjoyment of the truly great shows.

A show like Game of Thrones is good, often very good, occasionally great - by my own completely subjective judgment (and I don't begrudge anyone else at all feeling that its just great all the time, that's cool), and my expectations are adjusted accordingly. I personally don't care about the fact that armies seem to traverse the world without ever being spotted by a single scout. I have no expectation of that level of detail in this show, so I'm happy to ignore it. But I do think the show has shown me that its consistently good enough that most things should make sense most of the time - see my previous post about grayscale and the Sam/Jorah scene from last week. Or Jon and Sansa disagreeing in front of everyone and making major decisions on the fly in front of everyone when the show is often willing to show us the backroom discussions that would have taken in private instead of the slightly off "in front of the entire north" drama. These things don't make me dislike the show, but, I think the show *usually* gets things like this right, so when it feels a bit off, its worth a mention.

I do also, it should be noted, have shows like Grey's Anatomy, where the show is freaking trash, and I just don't care at all. Turn brain off, soak up the ridiculously absurd drama, and enjoy every second of it.

[Groundhog]

If the gift to Cersei wasn't going to be the horn (which it seems it won't be given the spoils of that "battle"), I don't think we'll see it. I imagine the ballista is the horn replacement.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

If the gift to Cersei wasn't going to be the horn (which it seems it won't be given the spoils of that "battle"), I don't think we'll see it. I imagine the ballista is the horn replacement.

This is probably true, but Euron's not an idiot. He wouldn't play his ace on the opening hand.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Radii

I find myself placing expectations on shows and adjusting to them. Breaking Bad, or Better Call Saul, or a few other greats, I am happy to meticulously break down every little detail and if any part of the story feels even slightly out of place its worth discussing. I don't care if you don't do that and just sit down and enjoy. But these shows are great enough and consistent enough that I get to do that and it greatly enhances my enjoyment of the truly great shows.

A show like Game of Thrones is good, often very good, occasionally great - by my own completely subjective judgment (and I don't begrudge anyone else at all feeling that its just great all the time, that's cool), and my expectations are adjusted accordingly. I personally don't care about the fact that armies seem to traverse the world without ever being spotted by a single scout. I have no expectation of that level of detail in this show, so I'm happy to ignore it. But I do think the show has shown me that its consistently good enough that most things should make sense most of the time - see my previous post about grayscale and the Sam/Jorah scene from last week. Or Jon and Sansa disagreeing in front of everyone and making major decisions on the fly in front of everyone when the show is often willing to show us the backroom discussions that would have taken in private instead of the slightly off "in front of the entire north" drama. These things don't make me dislike the show, but, I think the show *usually* gets things like this right, so when it feels a bit off, its worth a mention.

I do also, it should be noted, have shows like Grey's Anatomy, where the show is freaking trash, and I just don't care at all. Turn brain off, soak up the ridiculously absurd drama, and enjoy every second of it.

You're certainly not wrong about any of that. I see an awful lot of weird and odd stuff done in shows after watching, while reviewing them with my rational mind, or pointed out by others, like in this thread, where I'll think about that and realize that a rather ridiculous turn of events or raises somr serious disbelief issues. For me, I think the difference is that when I am watching a show for entertainment purposes, I don't have my rational mind "on," really. It's there, but I am in a much more surface level, sensory mode, where I don't look deep but instead enjoy the visceral experience of watching the show.

And even when my rational mind afterwards tears it up, I am still likely to enjoy my memory of the experience and look upon it somewhat more favorably, even if I know it was pretty much shit (or flawed, at the least).

Interestingly enough, there are rare instances when I am taken out of my emotive watching mode, usually by characters I find personally disgusting. For instance, Inwas rarely taken out of my viewing pleasure by the first appaearance of the Sand Snakes in Sunday's episode. They were their ever annoying selves in that scene. I am not sorry to see two and maybe all three of them have been killed off.

Two other recent instances. One, I was listening to the audio book version of The Girl On The Train. I got maybe one third of the way through it (over almost two weeks) when I simply had to stop. Everyone in that stupid book is exceedingly awful. They are all terrible human beings. I had no one to roor for. I wanted to turn to a page where real people decided to unleash an atomic bomb on the center of the area of events and wipe them all out.

The other one was a stupid Lifetime movie called either "Monolith" or "Trapped Child"--even the Internet was unclear what this movie was named. The "star" (young, beautiful blonde whom I had never heard of) was making stupid after stupid, catty, whiny decisions and somehow ended up outside of her super safe futuristic hyper secure SUV in the middle of a CA desert, with her child trapped inside it. It was terrible. She was terrible. I almost wanted the child to die as some sort of weird payment for her utter vapid stupidity. Theb my own horror kicked in at that and I then hoped she would be eaten by coyotes while the child wad magically saved.

So, yea, I can be taken "out" of a movie. It just takes a ton more stupidity.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

If the gift to Cersei wasn't going to be the horn (which it seems it won't be given the spoils of that "battle"), I don't think we'll see it. I imagine the ballista is the horn replacement.

I dont think we'll be seeing the horn.

Obviously the gift will be the woman who poisoned her daughter.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I still enjoy GoT vs. a lot of shows that I stopped watching for reasons of poor personal entertainment returns (Walking Dead, Sons of Anarchy, The Strain, Outlander, Orphan Black, etc.), so I might be giving the wrong impression with all the complaints. GoT is particularly maddening for me because of it's logical inconsistencies, some times it's a well constructed show about characters playing deep, strategic, political games with each other, other moments it's a hot mess about those same characters acting like absolute morons in conflict with everything they've done up to that point, sometimes within the same show. Now the pace is flying all over the place, and it almost takes effort to slip in and out of understanding and/or disbelief with every other scene.

Agree with this and one of the biggest reasons its so disappointing is because it wasn't always this way. Seasons 1-3/4 were very well done artistically as well as purely for entertainment. It wasn't necessarily at the heights of some of the greatest shows on this era of Peak TV (The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, etc) but it wasn't that far from it either. It was fun but also seemed far more thought out and thought through (now granted, they switched from adapting a very highly detailed book series to basically writing the plot themselves from broad outlines, so something is bound to suffer in translation). A lot of disappointment is because of what the show used to be and how it's changed. Some of it I blame on the showrunners seeing the reaction to the Red Wedding and Purple Wedding and deciding to go more in that shock direction - though what made those events so good was that they were earned through good storytelling. I'm not sure that's the case anymore.

It's still entertaining, but I was entertained by glee (and aside from Season 1 it was a tirefire of a series). The show was more than simply entertaining and calls to 'turn your brain off and watch' not that long ago.

It doesn't help that they are adapting my favorite book series... oh well...

[Arles]

Question for book readers - So, when I was watching Theon's freakout and jump into the ocean, I noticed Euron's crew was cutting off the tongue of some of the Dornish/Greyjoy fighters. I wondered what this was about and stumbled across a thread talking about how Euron's crew was completely mute and he was the only one who could talk on the ship. Is this right? So, was this some kind of homage to book readers? Either way, that would have been an interesting sidestory to allude to at some point (maybe even when Euron was addressing Cersei). Especially if they were planning on using it in a later episode.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Arles

Question for book readers - So, when I was watching Theon's freakout and jump into the ocean, I noticed Euron's crew was cutting off the tongue of some of the Dornish/Greyjoy fighters. I wondered what this was about and stumbled across a thread talking about how Euron's crew was completely mute and he was the only one who could talk on the ship. Is this right? So, was this some kind of homage to book readers? Either way, that would have been an interesting sidestory to allude to at some point (maybe even when Euron was addressing Cersei). Especially if they were planning on using it in a later episode.

Yup, that's why Euron's ship is called "The Silence". It was a practice designed to prevent captured prisoners from rallying together and rising up against Euron.

So ya, a nod to the books. And even if someone doesn't read the books, I kind of like little traits like that, or anything that gives the sense that the world and what happens in it is much bigger than the glimpse we're seeing on screen. But considering Euron has replaced Ramsey (and before him, Joffery), as the focused-on crazy bad guy, I'm thinking we'll see this trait come up again.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

But considering Euron has replaced Ramsey (and before him, Joffery), as the focused-on crazy bad guy, I'm thinking we'll see this trait come up again.

I have heard this, but I also wonder what Euron has done to gain those comparisons? Yeah, he's a bit nutty, but he hasn't even been half as cruel as Joff or Ramsey.

[molson]

It's pretty early, and I'm guessing he's not going to be super-kind to his new captives.

[stevew]

Arya becoming little finger could be a way to so some cool stuff as well as keeping both of the actors on the show

[Edward64]

Great episode tonight, I think one of the better ones.

Jorah is good to go. Danerys seems to be rocked and will need some help from Jon (who got his stones). Sansa in charge. Unsullied at Casterly Rock but possibly trapped. Cersei not giving a damn anymore on what people may think ...

Ending was sweet.

[Coffee Warlord]

Probably the best one of this season.

[ISiddiqui]

It strikes me that Cersei is completely out maneuvering Tyrion. Her father's daughter indeed. And Iron Bank gold to come. Dany is going to need to unleash the dragons to win (though as Jon points out, it's for a potential Throne of Ash).

Very good episode.

(edit: the only issue I had was Euron's magically teleporting fleet, which ok...)

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Probably the best one of this season.

easily. Loved it.

[claphamsa]

I love it...but im good at ignoring timelines

[JPhillips]

I thought the character motivations were much better written in this episode. The fleet stuff makes no sense, but whatever.

The Casterly rock battle reminded my of season 2 of Rome.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The Casterly rock battle reminded my of season 2 of Rome.

Don't remember specifically season 2 but Rome was one of my favorites!

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

(edit: the only issue I had was Euron's magically teleporting fleet, which ok...)

The thing that stuck out to me, to nit pick at something, is that if the Greyjoys were sailing from Dragonstone to Dorne and the Unsullied were sailing from Dragonstone to Casterly Rock, the two fleets would have been heading in the same direction, so they should have been combined until they got to Dorne. So...

but anyway, whatever.

Overall great episode and good to see they sent off Olenna with a great scene.

[RainMaker]

I guess the one thing that bugs me is that Euron somehow built a ridiculously powerful navy in a few months that has wiped out two big armies.

[Neon_Chaos]

So Tyrion is currently batting 0 for 2.

If Dany wants to be queen of anything, she should just rain fire and blood. Hopefully that's where we are headed before the war with the dead for all of season 8.

[Groundhog]

Agree with much of the above - best episode of the season by far.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I guess the one thing that bugs me is that Euron somehow built a ridiculously powerful navy in a few months that has wiped out two big armies.

Euron's rise to power has been the biggest plot hole, really (and I mean gaping, huge, Wall sized plot hole). How he built a bajillion ships, and somehow has managed to magically arrive and obliterate two fleets in short order rather ridiculous.

The fast travel in general never bugged me. Euron being anywhere and everywhere with his doom fleet annoys me.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Euron had a fleet of ships prior to the Kingsmoot, and it's not surprising that Yara wouldn't be able to steal ALL of the Iron Fleet back after Euron won it. Also, the only super badass ship he has is the Silence, as far as I've been able to see. He IS the most fearsome pirate in the world, so this isn't exactly a huge suspension of disbelief.

As for fast travel, the only actual plot hole here is that the entire Targaryen fleet would have been sailing together until Dorne, because it is totally on the way to Lannisport / Casterly Rock. His catching up to Grey Worm is only a problem because he stopped back at King's Landing, and even that can almost be explained by the time it would have taken for them to capture the Rock anyway. In my head the isolating/capturing the Greyjoy part of the fleet is far more egregious a breach of the plausible suspension of disbelief.

[ISiddiqui]

Well in the books he did seem to have a shitload of magic items. Maybe a Horn of Teleportation was hidden among them .

[MrBug708]

Was Jaime more upset about Joffrey's death or Tyrion's perceived guilt? My guess was Tyrion

[Arles]

Great episode. I'm thinking that the caravan moving the Gold from Highgarden to Kings Landing may run into a dragon or two

It's really setting up for Dany and Jon to join forces and turn the tide on Cersei - but she had a banner week for her cause.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Was Jaime more upset about Joffrey's death or Tyrion's perceived guilt? My guess was Tyrion

Tyrion's guilt? Did I miss something?

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by stevew

Tyrion's guilt? Did I miss something?

You missed the whole Joffrey dying, tyrion trial for it? Jaime believed Tyrion but nobody knows who do actually did it until now