FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[NobodyHere]

Minnesota jail records suggest most arrested live in the state.

Minnesota politicians have no idea what they're dealing with.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

In keeping with this, what practical changes should be made in terms of police reform? I haven't seen this discussed a lot recently. The thing I keep running into when I think about this is the fact that juries repeatedly rarely convict if they even bother indicting police on serious crimes. There's a cultural shift that I think needs to happen for the police violence issue to improve, but other than just waiting for it to happen/protesting, how do we make that happen? What policy changes do people think would help?

Originally Posted by Atocep

Stop giving them military weapons/vehicles is step 1. We can't arm those that are responsible for policing ourselves like those we send to fight the enemy.

Investigations of police officers committing crimes needs to be handled by an independent body.

We also need to come down harder on cops that stand by and watch other cops commit crimes. 3 cops could have stopped what happened in Minneapolis and chose not to.

I know I've mentioned about the de-militarization of the police force, too. I think that's a big start. Military grade stuff should be for the military only.

I've seen a few things about Citizen Review Boards as a potential partial solution.

SI

[sterlingice]

Another thought that's been rattling around in my brain for the last couple of days - it's always been there but now it's amplified. You know that line of thought that goes something like "we could never be the Nazis/Soviets/China because the military/police would never willingly fire on American civilians"? Multiple reports of peaceful protesters (most), free press, medics, children, and more all across the country.

(Yes, yes, I'm sure some people would say "hah - you're just now realizing that?")

SI

[Jukeman]

I think police should live in the area they are policing...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

In keeping with this, what practical changes should be made in terms of police reform? I haven't seen this discussed a lot recently. The thing I keep running into when I think about this is the fact that juries repeatedly rarely convict if they even bother indicting police on serious crimes. There's a cultural shift that I think needs to happen for the police violence issue to improve, but other than just waiting for it to happen/protesting, how do we make that happen? What policy changes do people think would help?

Scale back qualified immunity. Lawsuits come out of the police pension fund. Make every police complaint public. Fire cops who are caught breaking laws and arrest them.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by whomario

I can only try and point out a few things that seem inherently wrong from the outside looking in and i freely admit i might have some wrong from my at best casual familiarity with the subject:

Thanks for your thoughts.

1) Totally agree with you on the training. I think that might be the only major practical thing that could be done. It would take decades to have full effect, but the sooner one starts the better.

2) US police offers are among the highest-paid in the world. Median salary is far higher than, for example, France or the UK. I don't think that's the problem.

3) What do you replace that revenue with, and what do you replace fines with as punishment for misdemeanors? I discussed this elsewhere a few years ago after Ferguson, and really got crickets. If you use property taxes, you're tanking the local economy. Then there's the part where virtually every government agency & program you can name is incentivized in this way; it's not like it's unique to the police.

4) I'd argue that localization is not only not insane, but absolutely essential for many aspects. No remote academy can properly train someone in the challenges and needs specific to their local community as well as those who are regularly dealing with it.

Gun prevalence isn't going away either. The training one does seem the most viable and practical to me. I'm definitely on board with that.

[ISiddiqui]

I have seen that community policing tends to work much better in building trust. Police not in riot gear and more seen as part of the community. Miami seemed to handle this past weekend well by accepting legitimate concerns and actually being on one knee as the protesters came to City Hall and then had conversations.

Training needs to improved. Police needs to be less militarized (how do you build trust when you look like you are invading your neighborhood). Asset based forfeiture needs to be abolished (it just encourages bull shit pull overs to take items).

Ending mass incarceration and war on drugs is key as well (and there seems to be bipartisan support for this as well... At least in Washington).

This won't solve everything. We live in a society that is still deeply racist and law enforcement has taught racist policing for too long ('driving while black' is a result of bad training). But it's a good step. We can build on that.


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[rjolley]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I think a lot are now similarly questioning beliefs they had about the police as a force "to serve and protect". And it's also very sad that in these videos, there's often no second cop trying to stop the first or any sort of remorse. In fact, much of the time, they seem to be enjoying this cruelty.

SI

But are they? Are they making that step, or is that a step too far for most? It's far easier to say those are isolated incidents under a stressful situation and that's not what goes on normally.

I hope that people will see this is an issue that's more widespread than they thought, but given the way things have gone over the past few years, I fully expect the same situation to play out in a couple of years, especially if the same leadership is in place.

[RainMaker]

The person who shot the lady on her porch should be fired and arrested for aggravated assault. Simple shit.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The person who shot the lady on her porch should be fired and arrested for aggravated assault. Simple shit.

All the police firing on journalists holding up their press cards should be, too. A number of those videos are reporters for local news who calmly showed credentials and still were either shot at, pushed down, assaulted or whatever.

And what went into the medic tent in Minneapolis actually falls into war crime territory.

SI

[sterlingice]

Dumb question that I probably just haven't seen the answer to: why where there 4 officers at the scene for a guy who supposedly passed a counterfeit $20 bill?

SI

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I am going to need you to stop rolling around in my head, grabbing all of my thoughts and putting it in a written form. My father called me yesterday and asked me how I was doing, My response has not changed all week. I am so fucking exhausted.

I feel ya, man. If you need to vent, let me know.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Thanks for your thoughts.

1) Totally agree with you on the training. I think that might be the only major practical thing that could be done. It would take decades to have full effect, but the sooner one starts the better.

2) US police offers are among the highest-paid in the world. Median salary is far higher than, for example, France or the UK. I don't think that's the problem.

3) What do you replace that revenue with, and what do you replace fines with as punishment for misdemeanors? I discussed this elsewhere a few years ago after Ferguson, and really got crickets. If you use property taxes, you're tanking the local economy. Then there's the part where virtually every government agency & program you can name is incentivized in this way; it's not like it's unique to the police.

4) I'd argue that localization is not only not insane, but absolutely essential for many aspects. No remote academy can properly train someone in the challenges and needs specific to their local community as well as those who are regularly dealing with it.

Gun prevalence isn't going away either. The training one does seem the most viable and practical to me. I'm definitely on board with that.

2) Compared to cost of living as well (adjusted) ? I know most jobs in the US are paid more than in Europe, but there is a whole litany of costs that factor in to a much higher degree as well. My salary makes me well off here, would be way less so getting that same number in the US. But i am not an expert on this, either.

3) For starters, do those fines go directly in the budget or are they routed centrally ? I mean, of course there are fines in Europe. But more fines don't equal a bigger police budget, less fines don't lead to a smaller one per se. Of course they make up a portion of the municipal/state budget (i mean, of course you use that money). In general, i can only say it works here to a higher degree (i mean, we have issues if course, too) without making it such a priority.

4) When you train for 2 or 3 years, you can do both. That is why you take that time. You train everybody in the basics that ought to apply everywhere, period. You also look at local differences there, but don't get pidgeonholed. Starting with the theory in a variety of fields from criminal law to social science with practical training in general running alongside it (stuff you need everywhere) as well as a 16 week apprenticeship at a local precinct at the halfway point.
In Germany and many other countries it is actually more like this: A police department does not just hire someone and train them, they hire from a pool of candidates that all finished that 2,5/3 year study/training/programme. Everybody they hire has been trained for 3 years.
Then they start training them locally and 'on the job'.

Just think about policing as a trade or a degree, not as a job. A trade or degree that gets you hired by an employee who then teaches you what you need specifically at that place of work, which you can only learn there.

I am going to add the german Wikipedia page on the german training programmes (there are 2, one for 'lower tier' jobs, one for higher 'ranks') which Google does a passable job translating:

Polizeiausbildung in Deutschland – Wikipedia

Google Translate

(if that link wont work i think your Browser should have that option starting directly from the Wikipedia link)

[NobodyHere]

So how much property damage has BLM caused after this is all said and done?

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

So how much property damage has BLM caused after this is all said and done?

The framing of your question is problematic. There are enough outside groups causing damage that there is no way to pin damage caused by one group or another.

[RainMaker]

Government just set up a trillion dollar slush find for billionaires and you're worried about an Arby's burning down.

All of a sudden people care about looting.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

The framing of your question is problematic. There are enough outside groups causing damage that there is no way to pin damage caused by one group or another.

What outside groups are causing damage? Most arrests are indicating that the thugs are local.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

What outside groups are causing damage? Most arrests are indicating that the thugs are local.

According to the MN Lt Gov, there are white supremacists and anarchists causing damage. How many people causing damage are members of a BLM group?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

What outside groups are causing damage? Most arrests are indicating that the thugs are local.

I think "outside" as in non-BLM core. So the thugs may be local but they aren't "true BLM believers".

I do the BLM has a messaging challenge. There is a need to express outrage but the rioting, whether or not cause by true BLM believers, will be associated to BLM by many.

I would start with asking Obama or Michele to lead BLM or an alternative. I'm actually surprised we haven't seen or heard more from them.

EDIT: Biden should promise something of that sort with Obama or Michelle leading it.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

According to the MN Lt Gov, there are white supremacists and anarchists causing damage. How many people causing damage are members of a BLM group?

The Lt Gov is spouting bullshit. The arrest records don't match

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Rainmaker

Government just set up a trillion dollar slush find for billionaires and you're worried about an Arby's burning down.

All of a sudden people care about looting.

It goes a little further than that. Grocery delivery services have suspended operations indefinitely in Minneapolis for example due to safety concerns. That makes it more dangerous for vulnerable populations to get needed essentials. There are all manner of reasons and aspects of society that depend on order. The human cost of the riots is unquestionably already much higher than the killing of George Lloyd which provoked them, and it will continue to rise. That should bother everybody.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

In keeping with this, what practical changes should be made in terms of police reform? I haven't seen this discussed a lot recently. The thing I keep running into when I think about this is the fact that juries repeatedly rarely convict if they even bother indicting police on serious crimes. There's a cultural shift that I think needs to happen for the police violence issue to improve, but other than just waiting for it to happen/protesting, how do we make that happen? What policy changes do people think would help?

I think outside prosecutors should handle all police prosecutions. Prosecutors need to work with their local law enforcement and thus are reluctant to do anything that could damage a relationship they need to win other cases. With outside prosecutors, maybe we'll have fewer instances of DA's acting like the officer's defense attorney.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

The Lt Gov is spouting bullshit. The arrest records don't match

Did they arrest all the people causing damage?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

Did they arrest all the people causing damage?

Of course not, but the majority they have arrested are locals.

The Lt Gov is spouting bullshit.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

What outside groups are causing damage? Most arrests are indicating that the thugs are local.

I'm just going to leave this right here:
hxxps://twitter.com/RacismDog/status/1266262821207040000

SI

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I'm just going to leave this right here:
hxxps://twitter.com/RacismDog/status/1266262821207040000

SI

I assumed that was bait and his continued use of it confirmed it for me.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

Did they arrest all the people causing damage?

Nah, they were too busy arresting reporters and medics

SI

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I'm just going to leave this right here:
hxxps://twitter.com/RacismDog/status/1266262821207040000

SI

So basically you have nothing to add?

[tucker rocky]

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Of course not, but the majority they have arrested are locals.

The Lt Gov is spouting bullshit.

The MN officials corrected their claim that most of the people arrested were not from MN.

Government officials on many levels have stated that there is evidence that some of the agitators and instigators are from far right and far left groups. Not everyone in the protest are there to protest. Some are there to move along whatever narrative they support not related to police brutality.

[rjolley]

Saw this a few minutes ago and thought it was a more positive video: Wojciech Pawelczyk on Twitter: "This is one of the most powerful videos I've seen in a long time… "

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by rjolley

The MN officials corrected their claim that most of the people arrested were not from MN.

Government officials on many levels have stated that there is evidence that some of the agitators and instigators are from far right and far left groups. Not everyone in the protest are there to protest. Some are there to move along whatever narrative they support not related to police brutality.

Still it was completely irresponsible to say that the agitators were from out of state when there was no evidence to support their claims.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

It goes a little further than that. Grocery delivery services have suspended operations indefinitely in Minneapolis for example due to safety concerns. That makes it more dangerous for vulnerable populations to get needed essentials. There are all manner of reasons and aspects of society that depend on order. The human cost of the riots is unquestionably already much higher than the killing of George Lloyd which provoked them, and it will continue to rise. That should bother everybody.

What's the total human cost of the total killing of black people by the police with impunity? Grocery delivery will likely come back very soon, I'd imagine. And this sort of concern strikes me as pearl clutching. Not that property damage isn't bad, but this sort of thing is just kinda silly. I mean peaceful protests cause issues as well - bus strikes can lead to closing bus routes that vulnerable people need for example.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

What outside groups are causing damage? Most arrests are indicating that the thugs are local.

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think "outside" as in non-BLM core. So the thugs may be local but they aren't "true BLM believers".

Just use the word you want to use.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

What's the total human cost of the total killing of black people by the police with impunity? Grocery delivery will likely come back very soon, I'd imagine. And this sort of concern strikes me as pearl clutching.

Would someone please think of the real victims in all this, people who use Instacart.

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Still it was completely irresponsible to say that the agitators were from out of state when there was no evidence to support their claims.

Yes, they rushed to get news out to try and help with the situation based on the information they were provided. Unfortunately, that information was wrong. Not sure what else to say...they made a mistake. Let's not use that to discount the likelihood that outside forces are involved in what's going on.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

So basically you have nothing to add?

Yeah, I've been too busy to post much today.

But, hey, feel free to air drop in a "thugs" and try to deflect this all on BLM.

It's definitely not a multi-faceted problem with many peaceful protests that are joined by some criminal elements, particularly, at night, ranging from white supremacists to anarchists to people who just want to loot.

On top of that, if only there were a post in this thread documenting literally dozens of times across the country where police escalated otherwise peaceful protests.

SI

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Government just set up a trillion dollar slush find for billionaires and you're worried about an Arby's burning down.

All of a sudden people care about looting.

Well it prevents people from doing the hard work to deal with a racist society in order to end oppression of black people. If it's only peaceful, easy to ignore the next day (thoughts and prayers). If it's violent, focus on the violence and forget the police brutality. Either way allows people to avoid doing anything.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Just use the word you want to use.

I think thugs is appropriate, don't you?

I typically say what I'm thinking so not sure what word you thought I was thinking about using. What don't you spell it out for me so I can see if there has been any exaggerations.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Just use the word you want to use.

What word is that? Oh wise one?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Yeah, I've been too busy to post much today.

But, hey, feel free to air drop in a "thugs" and try to deflect this all on BLM.

It's definitely not a multi-faceted problem with many peaceful protests that are joined by some criminal elements, particularly, at night, ranging from white supremacists to anarchists to people who just want to loot.

On top of that, if only there were a post in this thread documenting literally dozens of times across the country where police escalated otherwise peaceful protests.

SI

I'll call anyone using violence thugs. Do you disagree?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

What word is that? Oh wise one?

I may be mistaken but I think he believes we think peaceful protesting BLM = thugs and so has taken the SJW act on us. Whereas you were thinking (and I jumped in) people/groups causing the damage = thugs.

[tarcone]

We need to Amazing Grace and Chuck this whole thing.

Imagine

[Jukeman]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I may be mistaken but I think he believes we think peaceful protesting BLM = thugs and so has taken the SJW act on us. Whereas you were thinking (and I jumped in) people/groups causing the damage = thugs.

Lol really? His first post literally points out BLM...

Someone responded that outside groups (non BLM) have been causing damage

Then his second posts questions the guy’s statement...Even started the conversation about it being people that aren’t local cause no one even mentioned that before he did. His post smells like agenda.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Dumb question that I probably just haven't seen the answer to: why where there 4 officers at the scene for a guy who supposedly passed a counterfeit $20 bill?

SI

I suspect this is one of those questions that we have just moved right on past. Let's go with the assumption that he must have done something to deserve what he got. And now he is playing the victim card. That one has worked in the past.

[ISiddiqui]

What evidence is there that the rioters were BLM? It seems to me that BLM plans the peaceful, walk to the city hall to listen to speakers sort of protest. At worst they shout during political rallies.

It seems.... Suspect to me to link people that seem to be working for non violent protests and calling them the rioters who show up after the BLM program is concluded.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

Lol really? His first post literally points out BLM...

Where BLM goes, riots follow.

Am I wrong?

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

What's the total human cost of the total killing of black people by the police with impunity?

Quite small in the grand scheme of things (and lower than the amount of whites killed that way), but still way, way too high. As I've posted, I am concerned about the general issue of police violence. And you're definitely correct that peaceful protests can cause issues as well. But there needs to be some sense of proportion. Are you saying the protests would have happened without Lloyd being killed? If not, then they are primarily about Floyd's death. That's the proper comparison point. I mean otherwhise, we can add in to the riot damage all other riots in response to all such things going back to Rodney King (or further if you like). Which also were far worse than what they were protesting.

I am however, not completely devoid of brain cells despite what some people may think. I observe the difference in reaction on this board to the shutdown protests and the public health concerns there to the reaction to these protests. All of a sudden very few are concerned about spreading the virus more. Isn't that just convenient.

I want to learn (and already have on at least the training issue). I'm not trying to play gotcha and whataboutism, but I'm not going to turn my brain off and pretend these elephants in the room aren't there. I won't blow these unacceptable killings by police out of proportion just because it's fashionable, but I still want them minimized and I favor all reasonable actions to get there.

[Jukeman]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Where BLM goes, riots follow.

Am I wrong?

Funny thing is, everyone who were spray painting BLM and holding up signs weren’t even “black” so yea I agree if BLM is key word for instigators then you are 100% correct.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

Lol really? His first post literally points out BLM...

I checked and you are right. His other post does specifically allude to damage when referencing "thugs". Won't speak for him but I only think those causing damage are thugs.