Fox's new show "Glee"

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And as far as being 13 when he started, if you don't have a better sense of right/wrong, wise/foolish, etc. by that point then something more than just addiction has gone wrong already afaic.

But 13 year olds don't have that sense. Their brains are still developing. To be more exact, their prefrontal cortex is not developed yet. Sure they understand the broad strokes, but they don't have the ability to make rational decisions like us or have any impulse control.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But 13 year olds don't have that sense. Their brains are still developing. To be more exact, their prefrontal cortex is not developed yet. Sure they understand the broad strokes, but they don't have the ability to make rational decisions like us or have any impulse control.

This is bizarre given your earlier statements. I don't blame an addict once they start. If he started at 13, the level of addiction becomes surely extremely high and I think anybody, no matter the will power, will have difficultly controlling it. Once somebody goes down that path, I think it is almost impossible to stop. The idea that this guy could stop because he didn't have the willpower is nonsense. I side with everybody else here on that.

My argument is more about that at 13, you know they're bad for you. Don't do them and don't become an addict. I guess I will apologize to everyone here for actually having expectations of our youth.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by rowech

This is bizarre given your earlier statements. I don't blame an addict once they start. If he started at 13, the level of addiction becomes surely extremely high and I think anybody, no matter the will power, will have difficultly controlling it. Once somebody goes down that path, I think it is almost impossible to stop. The idea that this guy could stop because he didn't have the willpower is nonsense. I side with everybody else here on that.

My argument is more about that at 13, you know they're bad for you. Don't do them and don't become an addict. I guess I will apologize to everyone here for actually having expectations of our youth.

Highly magnanimous of you, good sir.

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But 13 year olds don't have that sense.

Maybe we're just splitting hairs here.

People are capable of making bad choices at any age, but by 13 something like this isn't on the level of an infant touching the proverbial hot stove either.

[jeff061]

I think people are underestimating 13 year olds.

[Flasch186]

at different ages there are "nos" that most (not all) people learn. At 3 my son learned not to go in the street and he stands there like a statue at the edge, at 4 he learns not to go near the community pool without us, at a certain age not to talk to strangers, and at 13 there has been enough data and info pumped into their heads that drugs are bad, dont do them.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

at different ages there are "nos" that most (not all) people learn. At 3 my son learned not to go in the street and he stands there like a statue at the edge, at 4 he learns not to go near the community pool without us, at a certain age not to talk to strangers, and at 13 there has been enough data and info pumped into their heads that drugs are bad, dont do them.

And I'm sure that stopped every single one of you in this thread to not do them when you were younger...

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

And I'm sure that stopped every single one of you in this thread to not do them when you were younger...

No we all make mistakes but I believe the premise of this part of this thread (for me anyways) was whether (personalizing) I felt sadness anymore when someone passes away from what (preliminarily) might be drug issues. I just dont feel sadness anymore (or its such a short period of time that) it is overtaken instantly by a feeling of, "You shouldnt have been doing drugs. You knwo that they simply kill ya and you have so much to live for." Thats all.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

at different ages there are "nos" that most (not all) people learn. At 3 my son learned not to go in the street and he stands there like a statue at the edge, at 4 he learns not to go near the community pool without us, at a certain age not to talk to strangers, and at 13 there has been enough data and info pumped into their heads that drugs are bad, dont do them.

I'm OK with this assumptions as long as we also assume that there was some form of good parental support in a child's life that allows them to respect their parents and what those parents teach the child. There are a lot of children in this country that aren't afforded that privilege which is the real tragedy.

[Flasch186]

I clearly must be wrong than if MBBF sees something in it. I retract everything and Im on the phone setting up an appt with a therapist.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I clearly must be wrong than if MBBF sees something in it. I retract everything and Im on the phone setting up an appt with a therapist.

I've got a good therapist if you need the number.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

And I'm sure that stopped every single one of you in this thread to not do them when you were younger...

Was more than enough to stop me. I didn't even drink until I was legal.
(Didn't even smoke til I was legal).

[Matthean]

Brother: "Hey, Matt. Why is it that you are such a could kid?"
Me: "Because I see what you do and do the opposite."

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'm OK with this assumptions as long as we also assume that there was some form of good parental support in a child's life that allows them to respect their parents and what those parents teach the child. There are a lot of children in this country that aren't afforded that privilege which is the real tragedy.

+50

It is very sad, but many kids do not have the opportunity to learn right from wrong and develop in a healthy environment. Everyone here also has above average cognitive abilities and likely developed their brains at a younger age than what is typical or than someone who is not in a healthy environment.

[TroyF]

After reading this thread for a couple of days, I have to ask this question:

If we are going to use a percentage of blame on the life of this actor, what is it?

0% since he got addicted to drugs at 13 and he never could chase the demons away?
100% because he had the money, time and resources to get better but still let addiction take him?

Obviously, those are the extremes and I don't think either one is necessarily right, but what is your opinion?

Let's say you assign a 30% blame on him. Then you will obviously feel less bothered by their death than the death of someone that is murdered or dies in a freak accident. I think it is natural for us to cope like this and I think most everyone would agree they do this on some level.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Was more than enough to stop me. I didn't even drink until I was legal.
(Didn't even smoke til I was legal).

Same here. I've never touched a drug in my life.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by TroyF

After reading this thread for a couple of days, I have to ask this question:

If we are going to use a percentage of blame on the life of this actor, what is it?

0% since he got addicted to drugs at 13 and he never could chase the demons away?
100% because he had the money, time and resources to get better but still let addiction take him?

Obviously, those are the extremes and I don't think either one is necessarily right, but what is your opinion?

Let's say you assign a 30% blame on him. Then you will obviously feel less bothered by their death than the death of someone that is murdered or dies in a freak accident. I think it is natural for us to cope like this and I think most everyone would agree they do this on some level.

I'm sure there has to be an insurance guy somewhere here that does this for a living...

[larrymcg421]

Wondering where all this discussion of blame and responsibility was in the James Gandolfini thread? His eating/drinking habits certainly led to his death, but I see none of the same comments there. I guess it's easier to look down on drug addicts than on people who eat and drink the same way many of us do.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I guess it's easier to look down on drug addicts than on people who eat and drink the same way many of us do.

Those eating habits, generally speaking, aren't criminal behavior.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Same here. I've never touched a drug in my life.

Other than caffeine, and occasionally alcohol (after i turned 21) neither have I. So what?

My childhood wasn't perfect, but my parents loved me, provided for my basic needs and tried their best to teach me right from wrong (even if I don't always see eye to eye with them now). I also am intelligent and had a brain that developed quicker than is typical, including parts that control reason, impulse control, etc...

Unfortunately many others aren't so lucky. Some spend their early years in such a crazy and unhealthy environment that drugs are seen as normal, right, an escape of even a way to create the chaos their biology is used to .

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Those eating habits, generally speaking, aren't criminal behavior.

Generally speaking being your key word.... but what about the person that ODs on a legal prescription medication? I'm not sure if there is a legal boundary crossed when the person takes more than they are prescribed? Or shady doctors that prescribe the stuff in the first place? A lot of this opiate addiction does start off as a legal prescription and not somebody with a sore back going down the local heroin dealer.

[Danny]

And those early life experiences significantly impact brain development and the ability to develop a sense of right from wrong, correlation between action and consequence and healthy perceptions of the world

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Danny

Other than caffeine, and occasionally alcohol (after i turned 21) neither have I. So what?

My childhood wasn't perfect, but my parents loved me, provided for my basic needs and tried their best to teach me right from wrong (even if I don't always see eye to eye with them now). I also am intelligent and had a brain that developed quicker than is typical, including parts that control reason, impulse control, etc...

Unfortunately many others aren't so lucky. Some spend their early years in such a crazy and unhealthy environment that drugs are seen as normal, right, an escape of even a way to create the chaos their biology is used to .

Hence the point I was trying to make, if you follow my original comment.

[Danny]

I also don't feel that thinking someone is personally responsible for what happens to them and feeling sympathy or sadness for them need to be mutually exclusive

[Danny]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Hence the point I was trying to make, if you follow my original comment.

Ah, my bad. I was meow trying to make a general point than I direct t towards you, but your quote button was right there

[panerd]

Not sure where this thread took a turn for all the bickering. Flasch said something along the lines of his sympathy level goes down because drugs were involved.

Young and cancer: Shocking, terrible
Older and cancer: Terrible
Cancer due to smoking: Less of the above
Young and car wreck: Shocking, terrible
Older and car wreck: terrible
Car wreck due to DWI: Less of the above
AIDS blood transfusion: shocking, terrible
AIDS youthful stupidity: terrible
AIDS Freddie Mercury lifestyle: Less of the above

Didn't realize this line of thinking was controversial.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by panerd

Not sure where this thread took a turn for all the bickering. Flasch said something along the lines of his sympathy level goes down because drugs were involved.

Young and cancer: Shocking, terrible
Older and cancer: Terrible
Cancer due to smoking: Less of the above
Young and car wreck: Shocking, terrible
Older and car wreck: terrible
Car wreck due to DWI: Less of the above
AIDS blood transfusion: shocking, terrible
AIDS youthful stupidity: terrible
AIDS Freddie Mercury lifestyle: Less of the above

Didn't realize this line of thinking was controversial.

Well if you go back and read what Flasch said, he started of saying "less and less saddened" and moved on to saying he wasn't sad at all and immediately started blaming. Then the thread turned into a list of ways to blame Monteith for how he died instead of showing any sympathy whatsoever. And it's in stark contrast to other threads where someone has died, even when their actions led to their death. Using your own criteria, "Heart Attack, James Gandolfini lifestyle" led to none of the some attacks and was instead filled with people feeling sad for his death.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Wondering where all this discussion of blame and responsibility was in the James Gandolfini thread? His eating/drinking habits certainly led to his death, but I see none of the same comments there. I guess it's easier to look down on drug addicts than on people who eat and drink the same way many of us do.

Hey, I'll bite. . . While I felt horrible for him and by all accounts he was a hell of a guy, the thought did flash through my mind of "he brought some of this on himself with his lifestyle choices"

As Jon said, the main difference is it isn't illegal to eat 20,000 calories a day and balloon up to 700 pounds. . . unless he was in NY and ordering 64oz sodas from a speak easy.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Well if you go back and read what Flasch said, he started of saying "less and less saddened" and moved on to saying he wasn't sad at all and immediately started blaming. Then the thread turned into a list of ways to blame Monteith for how he died instead of showing any sympathy whatsoever. And it's in stark contrast to other threads where someone has died, even when their actions led to their death. Using your own criteria, "Heart Attack, James Gandolfini lifestyle" led to none of the some attacks and was instead filled with people feeling sad for his death.

To your point absolutely. James Gandolfini would be middle age/mitigating circumstances/heart attack on my scale and would be most similar to older/athletic/heart attack or younger/somewhat out of shape/smoker/heart attack.

But some of the responses were complete shock like they might not be able to attend work or talk to Flasch ever again.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lungs

Generally speaking being your key word.... but what about the person that ODs on a legal prescription medication?

Hey, if Rush had od'ed on oxycontin, I'd have felt some degree of loss for whatever good he might have done going forward but I wouldn't have been grief stricken either. Grown man, personal responsibility, etc etc.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Danny

And those early life experiences significantly impact brain development and the ability to develop a sense of right from wrong, correlation between action and consequence and healthy perceptions of the world

And absent those characteristics (as you describe above, especially the underlined one), I'm not sure how great a loss to the planet their absence really is. Hence, perhaps, some of the lack of grief in this case for some. We grieve for losses.

Hell, I can be sad for the general story in a case like this without feeling a strong sense of grief, the two things aren't exactly the same. I'm sad that there's a whole bunch of stuff (including categories of people) in the world, I'm sad that various & sundry circumstances exist, doesn't mean I'm particularly troubled by the absence of some of those folks.

Maybe that's a finer hair that most people can/will split, seems like a valid one since we're beating this particular horse today though.

[RainMaker]

It looks like Heroin and alcohol was the deadly combo.

Cory Monteith Cause of Death -- HEROIN AND ALCOHOL | TMZ.com

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Danny

I also don't feel that thinking someone is personally responsible for what happens to them and feeling sympathy or sadness for them need to be mutually exclusive

I also think there are levels of sadness whether we like it or not. If someone dies at 98, it's sad, but to an extent. If an 8 year old dies, that sadness is much bigger. External factors will always play a role in our emotional response to the death of someone.

[ISiddiqui]

Sad stuff. I have read that heroin is a particularly nasty drug. Basically it ends up creating extra serotonin receptors in the brain. You end up being stuck not feeling very much pleasure from ordinary things because they produce less serotonin than your brain has become accustomed. This also makes the threat of going back much greater because ordinary life becomes basically pleasureless due to that.

[Autumn]

Not to mention that people often have imbalanced brain chemistry to begin with, from genetics or their childhood experiences. They often turn to drugs or alcohol in an attempt to feel like the rest of us.

[Matthean]

Glee Star Becca Tobin's Boyfriend Matt Bendik Found Dead: Report - Us Weekly

Bah. Somehow thought he was part of the cast. Still kind of odd the show is getting tagged with this stuff.