Trump's Immigration Reform

[thesloppy]

I know I'm just screaming into the wind in here, but I'll do it again: can anybody point me to even a tiny sliver of evidence that this supposed long ongoing crisis and/or invasion has affected their daily lives (let alone mine)?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I know I'm just screaming into the wind in here, but I'll do it again: can anybody point me to even a tiny sliver of evidence that this supposed long ongoing crisis and/or invasion has affected their daily lives (let alone mine)?

Ask the family of Laken Riley.

[thesloppy]

To be clear: you have zero personal evidence of any effect on your own life, and the only example you can cite from within your entire bubble is someone you saw on the news.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Do what should have been done long ago:

Detain upon detection
Deport with great haste.
Eliminate all forms of U.S. aid in any fashion to any nation that delays the return of their citizens.

Make 2nd offense a capital crime.
Make providing any form of aid to offenders not in custody a first time capital offense.

Might not get to absolute zero, but it'd move the needle.

That will go really well with public executions of nuns and priests.

And cutting off the money to fight the drug trade seems counterproductive.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Ask the family of Laken Riley.

Now play the same "what if?" game with reasonable gun restrictions (closing background check loopholes, extreme risk laws, required denial reporting to LE, mental health, etc.).

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It was no solution.

The only acceptable solution is zero tolerance for illegal entry.

Anything else is just a form of surrender to an invasion.

You better hope for a Trump victory and GOP winning both House & Senate.

I do agree with the sentiment but am a couple "levels/rungs" below you. There needs to be a grand bargain. That means compromise from both sides.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I know I'm just screaming into the wind in here, but I'll do it again: can anybody point me to even a tiny sliver of evidence that this supposed long ongoing crisis and/or invasion has affected their daily lives (let alone mine)?

Abortion rights doesn't affect my daily life. Mass shootings with AR-15's doesn't affect my daily life. War in Ukraine doesn't affect my daily life. Regional & Crypto banks failing doesn't affect my daily life. Opioids don't affect my daily life.

Heck, kicking out all illegal immigrants won't affect my daily life.

But all of those do impact me indirectly in varying ways, some in greater degree than others, some in positive or negative ways.

[RainMaker]

Worth noting that migrants commit violent crimes at a considerable lower rate than the average American citizen. More migrants would mean a lower crime rate. But we know this isn't about crime.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I know I'm just screaming into the wind in here, but I'll do it again: can anybody point me to even a tiny sliver of evidence that this supposed long ongoing crisis and/or invasion has affected their daily lives (let alone mine)?

It drives down the cost of products and services for consumers. It also reduces the crime rate. That's how you've been affected.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Edward64

But all of those do impact me indirectly in varying ways, some in greater degree than others, some in positive or negative ways.

Sure. What's stopping you from naming them?

[thesloppy]

Personally, I suffer from the housing crisis and the city I live in suffers from tons of homelessness and all of the associated rising costs. Illegal immigartion certainly isn't HELPING that situation, but it's also a drop in the bucket compared to the other dozens of directly contributing factors.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Sure. What's stopping you from naming them?

Nothing. I just pointed out I did not believe your criteria about "affects my daily life" was the correct criteria.

So, to be clear, the criteria is no longer "affects my daily life" but I am answering the question in the context of

indirectly impacts me in varying ways, some in greater degree than others, some in positive or negative ways.

See below wiki for economic & crime impacts. I have said that I do believe well-edited wiki is as good as anyplace to start. Neither of below links provide a compelling rationale to stop illegal immigration but providing them as possible context for future discussions.

Economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States - Wikipedia
Illegal immigration to the United States and crime - Wikipedia

So why reduce illegal immigration?

Before I answer that question (and I will), my question to you is - how much is enough? Provide a % or a criteria where you would say there's enough illegal immigrants in the US. Or is it open ended where there is no limit?


EDIT:

I'll also reference 2 prior posts in this thread on my general position.

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Biden's Immigration Reform
Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Biden's Immigration Reform

[RainMaker]

You don't really have an answer is what you're saying.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You don't really have an answer is what you're saying.

Nope, I really do. In fact, I'll was researching the Trump and this thread. I'll post my quotes.

Why don't you try answering my question:

Before I answer that question (and I will), my question to you is - how much is enough? Provide a % or a criteria where you would say there's enough illegal immigrants in the US. Or is it open ended where there is no limit?

[thesloppy]

I don't give the slightest shit about illegal immigration and there is already a robust system in place that has been serving well my entire life as far as I can tell. As such the dividing line for me is "as soon as someone can tell me how it affects me in ANY significant way"

At this point the absolute undeniable biggest effect it has on my life (or yours until evidence to the contrary) is it's use as a wedge issue to drive panic votes to Donald Trump. The changes that need to be made to fix that have nothing to do with the border.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I don't give the slightest shit about illegal immigration and there is already a robust system in place that has been serving well my entire life as far as I can tell. As such the dividing line for me is "as soon as someone can tell me how it affects me in ANY significant way"

At this point the absolute undeniable biggest effect it has on my life (or yours until evidence to the contrary) is it's use as a wedge issue to drive panic votes to Donald Trump. The changes that need to be made to fix that have nothing to do with the border.

Okay. No metrics, not an issue until it's an issue.

As I stated earlier to RM, I know there was a similar discussion back in the Trump thread so I was researching my response then. Back then it was a discussion with primarily AENeuman, see Trump thread starting at approx. pg 212.

AENeuman was asking "what is the problem with illegal immigration". After some back and forth I said:

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think I see the confusion.

I think its sufficient to say they have broken laws in the country. With that said, I don't think the immigration laws are perfect and do believe the laws need to be reformed.

Originally Posted by Edward64

We do live in a country with laws. Sure some laws are bad or inadequate, let's change them (e.g. immigration laws) through the process.

This sets the baseline for my POV. I'll get into more details in next post on how it "indirectly impacts me in varying ways".

[Edward64]

My position is there are laws that should be followed. They definitely aren't perfect and both sides interpret & change them for their benefit. If we don't like the laws, change them through the legal process (and elections).

So, if Joe/Trump wants to use his executive powers to do something, go for it but if opposing House/Senate pushes back, I'm good with that also. Fight it out. If Joe/Trump wants to give Mexico the carrot and/or stick for "remain in Mexico" and it's legal, I'm good with that too. However, this means for all practical purposes that our piecemeal immigration "laws" will continue to be challenged in the courts by Dems/Reps until we have a more comprehensive immigration reform.

How illegal immigration impacts me indirectly (or aka why I don't like it).

1) There are a bunch of legal immigrants waiting to get processed. A 2022 Pew estimated 673K waiting to get naturalized. A 2023 Cato article said 1.8M waiting for green cards. So, let's get the approx. 2.5M "legal" folks processed first at the very least.

2) What is the solution for existing illegal immigrants? One side wants to provide a pathway to citizenship, another wants to pretty much kick them out. Both sides want what they want for future political landscape ... aka votes. If 11M illegal immigrants were provided a pathway to citizenship/voting, this will positively/negatively impact future elections.

I do not want illegal immigrants impacting elections. And before anyone calls this racist, keep in mind that I am a proponent of increased legal immigration. I've said somewhere that legal immigration is how we solve our birthrate issue and also increase/maintain our competitive advantage (e.g. obvious when we look at Silicon Valley). So as some here may accuse me of "not wanting the brown people south of the border", I'm actually saying "open it up to all the brown, black, yellow people from all over the world, based on a merit/skills system, and reduce illegal & family based immigration".

3) Continuing with immigration merit/skills thought process, there is nothing I can think of that the "economic benefits of illegal immigration brings" that would not be matched/exceeded with "economic benefits of legal immigration + increased guest workers". So yeah, my preference is legal > illegal.

1. Increased GDP, innovation, fill jobs? Check
2. More younger people to support tax base for older people? Check
3. More babies? Check
4. More diversity? Check
5. Lower crime rate with immigrants? Check (well, may be not white collar crime, but you get the idea)
6. Greater appreciation for US as the land of opportunity? Check
7. etc.

So, in summary. I have answered how illegal immigration impacts me (but not on a daily basis). I have also proposed the answer for you on how illegal immigration will impact you "in any significant way" ... if pathway to citizenship is realized, the 11M will affect you as a partisan Dem or Rep in significant ways in future elections.

[thesloppy]

There is such a massive distance between "immigration laws could be updated" and "crisis", "invasion" or even "meaningful election issue"

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

There is such a massive distance between "immigration laws could be updated" and "crisis", "invasion" or even "meaningful election issue"

Good thing we had agreed that the context to my answer is

indirectly impacts me in varying ways, some in greater degree than others, some in positive or negative ways.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

My position is there are laws that should be followed. They definitely aren't perfect and both sides interpret & change them for their benefit. If we don't like the laws, change them through the legal process (and elections).

So, if Joe/Trump wants to use his executive powers to do something, go for it but if opposing House/Senate pushes back, I'm good with that also. Fight it out. If Joe/Trump wants to give Mexico the carrot and/or stick for "remain in Mexico" and it's legal, I'm good with that too. However, this means for all practical purposes that our piecemeal immigration "laws" will continue to be challenged in the courts by Dems/Reps until we have a more comprehensive immigration reform.

How illegal immigration impacts me indirectly (or aka why I don't like it).

1) There are a bunch of legal immigrants waiting to get processed. A 2022 Pew estimated 673K waiting to get naturalized. A 2023 Cato article said 1.8M waiting for green cards. So, let's get the approx. 2.5M "legal" folks processed first at the very least.

2) What is the solution for existing illegal immigrants? One side wants to provide a pathway to citizenship, another wants to pretty much kick them out. Both sides want what they want for future political landscape ... aka votes. If 11M illegal immigrants were provided a pathway to citizenship/voting, this will positively/negatively impact future elections.

I do not want illegal immigrants impacting elections. And before anyone calls this racist, keep in mind that I am a proponent of increased legal immigration. I've said somewhere that legal immigration is how we solve our birthrate issue and also increase/maintain our competitive advantage (e.g. obvious when we look at Silicon Valley). So as some here may accuse me of "not wanting the brown people south of the border", I'm actually saying "open it up to all the brown, black, yellow people from all over the world, based on a merit/skills system, and reduce illegal & family based immigration".

3) Continuing with immigration merit/skills thought process, there is nothing I can think of that the "economic benefits of illegal immigration brings" that would not be matched/exceeded with "economic benefits of legal immigration + increased guest workers". So yeah, my preference is legal > illegal.

1. Increased GDP, innovation, fill jobs? Check
2. More younger people to support tax base for older people? Check
3. More babies? Check
4. More diversity? Check
5. Lower crime rate with immigrants? Check (well, may be not white collar crime, but you get the idea)
6. Greater appreciation for US as the land of opportunity? Check
7. etc.

So, in summary. I have answered how illegal immigration impacts me (but not on a daily basis). I have also proposed the answer for you on how illegal immigration will impact you "in any significant way" ... if pathway to citizenship is realized, the 11M will affect you as a partisan Dem or Rep in significant ways in future elections.

Still not catching how this affects you outside of vibes. You call for immigration to increase birthrates but then contend it's bad because they'll be able to vote when they become citizens.

[RainMaker]

One of the funniest aspects of the immigration bill is how he put a loophole in for unaccompanied minors so Christian fundamentalists and Mormons can continue to adopt white babies from Ukraine. A bone tossed to the right. Then the right just trashes him for the loophole as a reason they won't vote for it.

Biden has to have some weird humiliation fetish between this, asking for Trump to save his shitty bill, and letting Netanyahu dogwalk him and make the country look comically weak.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

You better hope for a Trump victory and GOP winning both House & Senate.

Like I have another choice at this point?

And I don't trust him to not sell out anything good at the drop of a hat either.

I remain a only-option-available supporter, not a MAGA true believer. Hell, I'm debating whether to go vote my conscience (DeSantis) in the primary, go vote Trump in order to try to beat Haley as badly as possible, or just sit out until November.

edit to add: Remember, I've said consistently through the process that I believe Trump = Hilary at this point and that he cannot win this go 'round. That's not whistling past the graveyard, that's me having expectations that are different from my most fervent hopes.

[RainMaker]

I think Trump has a very good chance of winning. He will probably take Arizona and Nevada due to some demographic shifts. Georgia is looking like its swinging his way based on polls. And I think Biden is cooked in Michigan due to the high Muslim population and upset voters.

A lot can change between now and election day but I think he has to be the favorite right now. Still think Trump says some dumb shit that fucks him over but Democrats don't seem too interested in winning either.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Edward64

So, in summary. I have answered how illegal immigration impacts me (but not on a daily basis). I have also proposed the answer for you on how illegal immigration will impact you "in any significant way" ... if pathway to citizenship is realized, the 11M will affect you as a partisan Dem or Rep in significant ways in future elections.

To be clear, you can't provide a single reference for how this affects you, me or anybody you know, directly, or indirectly, but you do think it will affect you in the future. As convincing as I find the literally zero evidence anyone can come up with that illegal immigration is a serious issue, I remain unmoved.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

To be clear, you can't provide a single reference for how this affects you, me or anybody you know, directly, or indirectly, but you do think it will affect you in the future. As convincing as I find the literally zero evidence anyone can come up with that illegal immigration is a serious issue, I remain unmoved.

Regarding my #2.

I certainly think being able to heavily weigh Dem/Rep over Rep/Dem in future elections is significant. And yes, that definitely affects me indirectly.

If this was 50 years in the future, sure I can see it's way out there and not as relevant. But this is coming up in recent immigration reforms (e.g. Dignity Act) with providing a pathway to citizenship. It will likely happen to some degree in the next 10-20 years.

Question - if 11M illegals becoming citizens is not a significant issue, are you okay with immigration reform not providing pathway to citizenship but just legalizing the illegals with some sort of increased guest worker program? Essentially, work legally but not vote?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Still not catching how this affects you outside of vibes. You call for immigration to increase birthrates but then contend it's bad because they'll be able to vote when they become citizens.

As I've contended previously in my discussion with another member, one needs to make a distinction between legal and illegals. This often gets lost in the mix from how many in MSM evolved from using words like "illegals" to "undocumented" and now, many articles just use the word "migrants".

So, to be clear in response to your comment, I am all for increased babies from legal immigrants. I am not for increased babies from illegal immigrants.

Regarding how this impacts me indirectly, see my response above to thesloppy.

Same questions to you that I've asked him.

Question - if 11M illegals becoming citizens is not a significant issue, are you okay with immigration reform not providing pathway to citizenship but just legalizing the illegals with some sort of increased guest worker program? Essentially, work legally but not vote?

Before I answer that question (and I will), my question to you is - how much is enough? Provide a % or a criteria where you would say there's enough illegal immigrants in the US. Or is it open ended where there is no limit?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Like I have another choice at this point?

And I don't trust him to not sell out anything good at the drop of a hat either.

I remain a only-option-available supporter, not a MAGA true believer. Hell, I'm debating whether to go vote my conscience (DeSantis) in the primary, go vote Trump in order to try to beat Haley as badly as possible, or just sit out until November.

edit to add: Remember, I've said consistently through the process that I believe Trump = Hilary at this point and that he cannot win this go 'round. That's not whistling past the graveyard, that's me having expectations that are different from my most fervent hopes.

Hah. I think you should vote for DeSantis. That will help Joe.

(Same end result for some progressives that want to sit-out-the-vote. That will help Trump)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Hah. I think you should vote for DeSantis. That will help Joe.

No it doesn't, I mean not in an already decided primary. Not here. You'd be hard pressed for Trump to lose the Georgia primary among (R) voters if it came
with a binding stipulation that he'd be king for life.

Nobody actually gives a rat's ass about the talking point percentage crap in either primary. It's only relevant to those who have a financial need to generate "content" for the mindless masses (also present on both sides)

[/i]Nobody[/i] gets elected without votes from a certain number of rather complete idiots, it's mathematically impossible now.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Nobody actually gives a rat's ass about the talking point percentage crap in either primary. It's only relevant to those who have a financial need to generate "content" for the mindless masses (also present on both sides)

On this point we agree. All the internet "ink" spilled on doom talk about Biden losing 13% of the MI Dem primary vote to Uncommitted; meanwhile, Obama as a well-liked incumbent lost 10% to Uncommitted in MI in 2012 with no discernible person or movement against him.

[miami_fan]

Tommy Tuberville is not making a distinction between legal and illegal. His distinction is knowing God or not knowing God. My assumption is he is talking about them knowing his God as opposed to their own.

“The biggest thing right now I will tell you is what’s going on at our southern border. When you’ve got a country without borders, you don’t have a country. And it goes back to one thing: God is not in this building. We’ve got to get God back in this building and we’re gonna get God back in our country. We’ve got to get the God back in the nuclear family. We have to get moral values back into our country. And you can’t do that when you have a million people every couple of months come into this country that know nothing about God, that know nothing about our laws and constitution.”

I am going to get ahead of what I know is coming by allowing for the slight possibility that TT was only talking about illegal immigration and not talking about all immigration. About illegal immigrants of all kinds and not just THOSE illegal immigrants . It would be nice if he would spelled those things out so as not to blur the lines if that is what he meant.

It has been a while so I apologize for jumping around a bit. I don't want to quote every post.

I wish I saw NobodyHere's post from December 18th earlier. I especially appreciate this question.

What penalties should people who knowingly employ illegal immigrants face?

The reluctance to really go after employers especially huge companies is telling.

I missed the context of these questions so I just need some clarification.

Question - if 11M illegals becoming citizens is not a significant issue, are you okay with immigration reform not providing pathway to citizenship but just legalizing the illegals with some sort of increased guest worker program? Essentially, work legally but not vote?

To clarify, do you mean make them green card holders and give them the rights associated with that status but with no chance at U.S. citizenship ever no matter how long they stay in the country? Are they paying taxes like green card holders do?

Before I answer that question (and I will), my question to you is - how much is enough? Provide a % or a criteria where you would say there's enough illegal immigrants in the US. Or is it open ended where there is no limit?

I have no idea what you are asking. According to the Pew Research Center in 2021, 3% of the U.S. population were what they described as "unauthorized immigrants". Of course this does not include an presumed increases since then but that is the most recent data. Are you looking for someone to say 3%-5% is cool but 8%-10% is borderline and above 10% is too much?

What we know about unauthorized immigrants living in the U.S. | Pew Research Center

There is some really good information in that study. I am curious whether Mexico is seeing an increase of nationals from El Salvador, India, Guatemala, Honduras, Venezuela, or Brazil staying in Mexico or are they just passing through.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Question - if 11M illegals becoming citizens is not a significant issue, are you okay with immigration reform not providing pathway to citizenship but just legalizing the illegals with some sort of increased guest worker program? Essentially, work legally but not vote?

Sure.


As I said before this is being used as a wedge issue to drive millions of votes towards putting a proven election interferer, fraudster, crucial nuclear security risk and rapist on charge of the country as we speak. Worries about how a three percentage point increase to our voting population could potentially effect future hypothetical elections seems like dropping the cart right on top of the horse.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

On this point we agree. All the internet "ink" spilled on doom talk about Biden losing 13% of the MI Dem primary vote to Uncommitted; meanwhile, Obama as a well-liked incumbent lost 10% to Uncommitted in MI in 2012 with no discernible person or movement against him.

A lot of people are going to be surprised in November at what's happening in Michigan. I think the Biden team knows which is why they've sent so many people there and he even lied about a ceasefire before the primary. But everyone else who thinks that state belongs to him is in for a real surprise.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Question - if 11M illegals becoming citizens is not a significant issue, are you okay with immigration reform not providing pathway to citizenship but just legalizing the illegals with some sort of increased guest worker program? Essentially, work legally but not vote?

Could even count them as 3/5ths a person on the census.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I am going to get ahead of what I know is coming by allowing for the slight possibility that TT was only talking about illegal immigration and not talking about all immigration.

Without the source link and reading the context, I would assume he did mean illegal immigration. In your quote, he said southern border so assume he did mean mostly "those illegals".

The reluctance to really go after employers especially huge companies is telling.

I'm all for it. Make eVerify complusory. And if eVerify is only 80% good, figure out how to make it 99% good.

I don't know if it's fair to specifically call out huge companies. I think small companies also share in the blame. But don't know the % split. e.g. I've always assume plenty of houses in my subdivision were built by illegal immigrants. The developer wasn't one of those national chains.

To clarify, do you mean make them green card holders and give them the rights associated with that status but with no chance at U.S. citizenship ever no matter how long they stay in the country? Are they paying taxes like green card holders do?

I don't know specifically about green card holders. As it stands now, green card holders do have a path to citizenship legally. I suspect that would be a legal mess to modify that. But guest workers are also not quite there either (e.g. owning property like a condo). So, somewhere inbetween. Paying taxes is TBD. Assuming the illegals will never reap the benefits of taxes, then no. But if they do get some benefits from taxes, then yes.

I have no idea what you are asking. According to the Pew Research Center in 2021, 3% of the U.S. population were what they described as "unauthorized immigrants". Of course this does not include an presumed increases since then but that is the most recent data. Are you looking for someone to say 3%-5% is cool but 8%-10% is borderline and above 10% is too much?

No, I am not saying that. I am saying any % of illegals is too much. Yes, there will always be some % of illegals for all practical purposes, but we aren't doing much about the 11M already here ... other than accepting it (and allowing more in).

The purpose of that question is - to understand from proponents of "illegal immigration doesn't matter, it doesn't hurt anyone, more the merrier", if there is a practical limit when there is too many.

So let me ask you the same questions - we have approx 11M illegals right now ...

how much is enough? Provide a % or a criteria where you would say there's enough illegal immigrants in the US. Or is it open ended where there is no limit?

Question - if 11M illegals becoming citizens is not a significant issue, are you okay with immigration reform not providing pathway to citizenship but just legalizing the illegals with some sort of increased guest worker program? Essentially, work legally but not vote?

There is some really good information in that study. I am curious whether Mexico is seeing an increase of nationals from El Salvador, India, Guatemala, Honduras, Venezuela, or Brazil staying in Mexico or are they just passing through.

I've read the # of illegals from Mexico has decreased but # of illegals south of Mexico (and China?) have increased. Haven't read about India, that's interesting.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Sure.


As I said before this is being used as a wedge issue to drive millions of votes towards putting a proven election interferer, fraudster, crucial nuclear security risk and rapist on charge of the country as we speak. Worries about how three tenths of a single percentage point increase to our voting population could potentially effect future hypothetical elections seems like dropping the cart right on top of the horse.

Fantastic. Then we agree on a great compromise solution that I see would be acceptable to possibly both GOP and a little less so for Dems.

But I want to research that more. Will update when I've got something.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Could even count them as 3/5ths a person on the census.

Nah, that would be racist. And we aren't talking about racism right now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As I said before this is being used as a wedge issue to drive millions of votes towards the only even remotely halfway decent President the nation has had in almost two decades

Fixed that for you.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Without the source link and reading the context, I would assume he did mean illegal immigration. In your quote, he said southern border so assume he did mean mostly "those illegals".

This is why I said what I said.

I'm all for it. Make eVerify complusory. And if eVerify is only 80% good, figure out how to make it 99% good.

I don't know if it's fair to specifically call out huge companies. I think small companies also share in the blame. But don't know the % split. e.g. I've always assume plenty of houses in my subdivision were built by illegal immigrants. The developer wasn't one of those national chains.

On the rare occasions I have seen the government prosecute these cases, I have seen it put small business owners and employees of huge companies in jail. The huge companies? Not so much.

I don't know specifically about green card holders. As it stands now, green card holders do have a path to citizenship legally. I suspect that would be a legal mess to modify that. But guest workers are also not quite there either (e.g. owning property like a condo). So, somewhere inbetween. Paying taxes is TBD. Assuming the illegals will never reap the benefits of taxes, then no. But if they do get some benefits from taxes, then yes

THIS is where we need to make some distinctions. I get the impression we are creating a monolithic image of the undocumented worker.

According to the Migration Policy Institute's most recent data:

62% of all illegal immigrants have been in the US for 10 years or more, 22% have been here for 20 years or more.

54% male, 46% female

53% are over 35 years old.

54% have at least a high school diploma while 18% have at least a bachelor's.

43% have a family income at or above 200% of the poverty line or around $60,000 annually.

28% of illegal immigrants are homeowners.

Oh, and there are also studies that suggest that undocumented workers paid over $492 billion dollars in total taxes (federal, state, municipal, and sales) in 2019 alone. All the while not being eligible for Social Security benefits or the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC).

how much is enough? Provide a % or a criteria where you would say there's enough illegal immigrants in the US. Or is it open ended where there is no limit?

Since it has already been acknowledged that there will always be illegal immigration, I am going to say 3%-4% of the US population seems fine to me. Don't ask me how I came up with that number. Just know that I am leaning heavily on allowing students to stay past their visa expiration date in order to find jobs if they don't have one lined up before the visa expires, people who have lived here 20+ years with their immigration status being the only blemish on their record or allowing farm workers and construction workers to stay while the government figures out what it wants to do so those industries won't collapse when we deport everyone. That last one is especially important since I know that U.S. employers would just find a way to bring them back illegally because that is what they always do and what they do without fear of sanction.

Question - if 11M illegals becoming citizens is not a significant issue, are you okay with immigration reform not providing pathway to citizenship but just legalizing the illegals with some sort of increased guest worker program? Essentially, work legally but not vote?

No. I don't see the sense of trying to punish someone in the situations that I leaned on for my 3%-4% above 20+ years after the fact especially if they have led an otherwise positive, law abiding life. Nothing should be taken off the table. Timeframes, pathways can and should be adjusted similar to what we do for folks who get married two days before the visa expires, folks that are fleeing a communist island 90 miles away by boat, or defecting from Putin's KGB.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Tommy Tuberville is not making a distinction between legal and illegal. His distinction is knowing God or not knowing God. My assumption is he is talking about them knowing his God as opposed to their own.

This is hilarious. Has he never been to Central or South America? They're like 100 times more Christian than anyone in this country.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

THIS is where we need to make some distinctions. I get the impression we are creating a monolithic image of the undocumented worker.

We do need to make distinctions and allowances for sure. A good example is, I lean for DACA kids to getting pathway to citizenship. Another example is any illegals with a felony, prioritize them for removal. And etc.

Oh, and there are also studies that suggest that undocumented workers paid over $492 billion dollars in total taxes (federal, state, municipal, and sales) in 2019 alone. All the while not being eligible for Social Security benefits or the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC).

I can easily believe this. But taxes pay for more than just social security and EIC. It pays for other services such as schools, roads, healthcare etc. But yes, I suspect illegals pay more than they get benefits for.

So, using a very simple, illustrative example. Illegals pay 10. They get benefits of 7. They lose out on 3.

Since it has already been acknowledged that there will always be illegal immigration, I am going to say 3%-4% of the US population seems fine to me. Don't ask me how I came up with that number. Just know that I am leaning heavily on allowing students to stay past their visa expiration date in order to find jobs if they don't have one lined up before the visa expires, people who have lived here 20+ years with their immigration status being the only blemish on their record or allowing farm workers and construction workers to stay while the government figures out what it wants to do so those industries won't collapse when we deport everyone. That last one is especially important since I know that U.S. employers would just find a way to bring them back illegally because that is what they always do and what they do without fear of sanction.

Okay. Needless to say that I disagree with you on the 3-4% threshold, but I appreciate you providing a criteria.

In 2021, about 332M so 4% is approx 13.2M. Pew says it was 10.5M illegals in 2021. I'll try to monitor and provide updates whenever. At the rate Joe is letting them in, and if he gets a 2nd term ... I'll swag and say sometime in 2027 (but no, don't hold me to it).

No. I don't see the sense of trying to punish someone in the situations that I leaned on for my 3%-4% above 20+ years after the fact especially if they have led an otherwise positive, law abiding life. Nothing should be taken off the table. Timeframes, pathways can and should be adjusted similar to what we do for folks who get married two days before the visa expires, folks that are fleeing a communist island 90 miles away by boat, or defecting from Putin's KGB.

And this the rub. thesloppy's original question was (paraphrased) how does illegal immigration impact your "daily life". After some back and forth, I answered his question with the below agreed context.

indirectly impacts me in varying ways, some in greater degree than others, some in positive or negative ways.

I provided 3 answers for how it affects "me". Specifically, #2 addressed

Originally Posted by Edward64

2) What is the solution for existing illegal immigrants? One side wants to provide a pathway to citizenship, another wants to pretty much kick them out. Both sides want what they want for future political landscape ... aka votes. If 11M illegal immigrants were provided a pathway to citizenship/voting, this will positively/negatively impact future elections.

I do not want illegal immigrants impacting elections.

Thesloppy is okay with legalization but no voting rights, and I'm great with that. I suspect GOP will love a deal that did not have pathway to citizenship. But I also suspect a majority of Dems would insist on pathway to citizenship. I said I would do some additional research to provide sources to back up this hypothesis (or not).

[Lathum]

Can we get a GOP speaker of the house type rule where if Edward starts to take over a thread it only requires one vote for him to take it to his thread of private bloviation?

[Lathum]

dola-

I vote yae

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Can we get a GOP speaker of the house type rule where if Edward starts to take over a thread it only requires one vote for him to take it to his thread of private bloviation?

Back to sarcasm attacks? Oh well, didn't last long. Nice while it lasted

[GrantDawg]

This was Ed's thread to begin with. There shouldn't be any shock he is going to be passionate about the subject.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Back to sarcasm attacks? Oh well, didn't last long. Nice while it lasted

I'm not being in the least bit sarcastic...

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I'm not being in the least bit sarcastic...

All the better. I respond to sarcasm with sarcasm. I respond to personal attacks with personal attacks.

Let's see how recharged you are after your self-imposed hiatus.

I don't attack first. So I'll let you go first ... or just ignore me like you've done for the past 2-3 months.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

This was Ed's thread to begin with. There shouldn't be any shock he is going to be passionate about the subject.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

Hey, thanks. Appreciate the acknowledgement.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I can easily believe this. But taxes pay for more than just social security and EIC. It pays for other services such as schools, roads, healthcare etc. But yes, I suspect illegals pay more than they get benefits for.

So, using a very simple, illustrative example. Illegals pay 10. They get benefits of 7. They lose out on 3.

And you, me, other U.S citizens and permanent residents, and other illegals that the government has provided special loopholes for get our benefits subsidized by them. So from a totally self interest point of view, why would we give that up? To adhere to immigration law? When have we ever done that?

Okay. Needless to say that I disagree with you on the 3-4% threshold, but I appreciate you providing a criteria.

In 2021, about 332M so 4% is approx 13.2M. Pew says it was 10.5M illegals in 2021. I'll try to monitor and provide updates whenever. At the rate Joe is letting them in, and if he gets a 2nd term ... I'll swag and say sometime in 2027 (but no, don't hold me to it).

So what is your threshold? We have already acknowledged that it can't be zero not just for practical reasons but at least in part for the resources they provide our economy. Keeping with my stated position on how the U.S. views immigration in general, if we could thrive without the contributions of undocumented workers, we would already be doing so.

2) What is the solution for existing illegal immigrants? One side wants to provide a pathway to citizenship, another wants to pretty much kick them out. Both sides want what they want for future political landscape ... aka votes. If 11M illegal immigrants were provided a pathway to citizenship/voting, this will positively/negatively impact future elections.

I do not want illegal immigrants impacting elections.

Again, what does this mean?

Despite all of the scare tactics, we can say with 99.999999% clarity that illegal immigrants do not vote. Outside of being one side's boogeyman to scare its base, they are not impacting elections in one way or another. Can we please stop with the foolishness?

Beyond that if the current 11M illegal immigrants were provided an pathway to citizenship, it would be no different than what the government has done in the past e.g. The Cuban Exodus even though others were waiting in the green card queue. If/When they became citizens, they would then be exercising their right to vote just like any other citizen. These citizens would impact elections in the exact same way as any other citizen does.

When you say that you don't want them to impact elections, is the fear that the current 11M are all going to lean for the Democrats or all for the Republicans? Is it demographics based? I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusions.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

All the better. I respond to sarcasm with sarcasm. I respond to personal attacks with personal attacks.

Let's see how recharged you are after your self-imposed hiatus.

I don't attack first. So I'll let you go first ... or just ignore me like you've done for the past 2-3 months.

Not an attack, just a suggestion.

I mean, you are the only person here with their own private thread to go to because you regularly cause threads to devolve into absolute nonsense.

Should tell you something.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

And you, me, other U.S citizens and permanent residents, and other illegals that the government has provided special loopholes for get our benefits subsidized by them. So from a totally self interest point of view, why would we give that up? To adhere to immigration law? When have we ever done that?

We've "given up" illegal labor and made them legal back in 1986. So there is precedence.

Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 - Wikipedia.

The Immigration Reform and Control Act altered U.S. immigration law by making it illegal to hire illegal immigrants knowingly and establishing financial and other penalties for companies that employed illegal immigrants. The act also legalized most undocumented immigrants who had arrived in the country prior to January 1, 1982.

So what is your threshold? We have already acknowledged that it can't be zero not just for practical reasons but at least in part for the resources they provide our economy.

I've answered what my threshold is below. The reality is since I do not control INS, Border Security etc, and because I believe compromise is necessary to get a bill through, I accept there will be some "leakage". I am willing to accept this leakage for something like the Dignity Act which contains stuff I support and other stuff that is questionable.

But my default position is get rid of all illegals either by kicking them out and/or converting (most of) them into non-voting, guest-worker-like visa.

I am saying any % of illegals is too much. Yes, there will always be some % of illegals for all practical purposes, but we aren't doing much about the 11M already here ... other than accepting it (and allowing more in).

Keeping with my stated position on how the U.S. views immigration in general, if we could thrive without the contributions of undocumented workers, we would already be doing so.

We don't need illegals. We do need legal alternatives with a holistic immigration reform bill. I stated below as my previous bullet #3. But you are right, without alternatives to current illegal labor (e.g. holistic immigration reform bill), it'll be a big frackup.

3) Continuing with immigration merit/skills thought process, there is nothing I can think of that the "economic benefits of illegal immigration brings" that would not be matched/exceeded with "economic benefits of legal immigration + increased guest workers". So yeah, my preference is legal > illegal.

Again, what does this mean?

Despite all of the scare tactics, we can say with 99.999999% clarity that illegal immigrants do not vote. Outside of being one side's boogeyman to scare its base, they are not impacting elections in one way or another. Can we please stop with the foolishness?

I am not saying the illegals are voting now. If you think I did say this, please quote me and I'll apologize.

I am saying if illegals are provided a pathway to citizenship, the 11M can greatly influence elections. There are approx 2M Cuban-Americans in Florida and they exert political pressure.

Beyond that if the current 11M illegal immigrants were provided an pathway to citizenship, it would be no different than what the government has done in the past e.g. The Cuban Exodus even though others were waiting in the green card queue. If/When they became citizens, they would then be exercising their right to vote just like any other citizen. These citizens would impact elections in the exact same way as any other citizen does.

That's right. And depending on what party you belong to, you either like or dislike how the Cuban-American population significantly impact FL elections.

When you say that you don't want them to impact elections, is the fear that the current 11M are all going to lean for the Democrats or all for the Republicans? Is it demographics based? I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusions.

Good question. In my previous comments, I did not commit to either "lean Dems or Reps". It really depends if Dems/Reps change/adapt and cater to the new reality (e.g. what can they concede to the 11M illegals to get their votes).