Sopranos:The Final Episodes

[Ksyrup]

CNN now has an article about the song, and they referenced recent popularity of the song that I had forgotten about:


"Don't Stop Believin' " has been featured in a several television and movie scenes. It crept onto an iTunes top-10 list when, during the same week, it was on Fox's "Family Guy" and in a romantic scene on MTV's "Laguna Beach."

Sports teams have adopted it, too. After the Chicago White Sox used it in 2005, Perry sang it at the parade to celebrate the team's World Series victory.


hxxp://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/TV/06/12/tv.sopranos.thatsong.ap/index.html

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Agreed. This thread is the first time I had any idea of any connection between this song and the White Sox.

Same here.

[Ksyrup]

None of that matters, I guess, but it just didn't strike me as "out of the blue" as it probably would have without all of the times it's come up in the mainstream in the last couple of years. It may have been that the irony of the lyrics and the end of the show were too good to pass up.

[molson]

I don't think it was used as a "hip" song by any means. It had a similar feel to the use of "Jessie's Girl" during the shootout climax of Boogie Nights.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't think it was used as a "hip" song by any means. It had a similar feel to the use of "Jessie's Girl" during the shootout climax of Boogie Nights.

But that's precisely the point - in 1997, Jessie's Girl was totally unpopular and worked well. If Boogie Nights was a 2007 movie, using that song now, when it's been covered a couple of times, the song is more popular because of the 80s revival, etc., it wouldn't have come out of left field so well. That's my point about Don't Stop Believin' - it may have nothing to do with why it was chosen, but that song doesn't work as well, IMO, because it's no longer unpopular and ridiculed (as much). When you've been beaten to the punch by Family Guy, it loses its edge. That's all I'm saying.

[Ksyrup]

See, this is what I'm talking about...on another board I post at, one of the guys is going to be featured on the upcoming VH1's World Series of Pop Culture. This is his exact quote:

"Using "Don't Stop Believing" in the finale = so very lame. I mean, I love that song as much as the next guy, but Sopranos must be like the 20th show to use that song in the last couple of years."

[cthomer5000]

I just don't think I believe that's the feel they were going for. I guess we'll agree to disagree.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

But that's precisely the point - in 1997, Jessie's Girl was totally unpopular and worked well. If Boogie Nights was a 2007 movie, using that song now, when it's been covered a couple of times, the song is more popular because of the 80s revival, etc., it wouldn't have come out of left field so well. That's my point about Don't Stop Believin' - it may have nothing to do with why it was chosen, but that song doesn't work as well, IMO, because it's no longer unpopular and ridiculed (as much). When you've been beaten to the punch by Family Guy, it loses its edge. That's all I'm saying.

I'm sure that's all true, I think we're just saying that for those of us unaware of Don't Stop Believin's "revival" (as David Chase probably was), I think it had the intended effect. I'm also guessing he had that song in mind for the final scene since very early on, if not before the series even started.

[cthomer5000]

Back to my major gripe about the show... I feel like they could have written this as the ending for season 4, and it would have been every bit as effective. Seasons 4-7 for me were mostly just weak or redundant. I mean, seriously... how many times did we tackle Christopher's addiction issue? I realize it really is that big a battle for many people, but christ does it make for boring TV the 5th time around. I think seasons 1-3 were fantastic, and after that the rest just isn't worth the time you have to put in.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm sure that's all true, I think we're just saying that for those of us unaware of Don't Stop Believin's "revival" (as David Chase probably was), I think it had the intended effect. I'm also guessing he had that song in mind for the final scene since very early on, if not before the series even started.

I agree with that. Which is why I'm sure he stuck with the song even though it had gotten popular. I guess what I'm trying to say is it might have been more effective without the recent history of the song, and it seems like that did effect some viewers negatively (although I didn't watch anything other than that scene), but the song obviously had a relevance to the show for which the popularity of the song didn't matter.

On that other board, there is this post detailing the songs on the jukebox, if anyone is interested in looking for "hidden meanings:"


"
Here are the songs titles I can read (from top to bottom) on the pages of the jukebox as Tony flips through it. To my surpise, a lot of the songs are repeated throughout the jukebox, but never in the same order. So I don't think its just a simple matter of the close-ups of the jukebox being edited into the scene out of order. While songs are repeated, they page of the jukebox upon which they appear is never in the same order twice.

Page numbers were designated by me, upon best guess based upon how the scene was shot and edited. I list song titles left column first, then right column, and always top to bottom.

Page 1 - Left Hand Column
Illegible.

Page 1 - Right Hand Column
1) Somewhere In The Night;
2) My Baby Drives a Buick;
3) Those Were The Days;
4) Turn Turn Turn;
5) Only The Strong Survive;
6) Victim of Love;
7) I've Gotta Be Me;

Page 2 - Left Hand Column

All songs from Page 1 - Right Hand Column, but in reverse order.

Page 2 - Right Hand Column
1) I've Gotta Be Me
2) A Lonely Place;
3) This Magic Moment;
4) Since I Don't Have You;
5) Crystal Blue Persuasion;
6) I'm Alive;

Page 3 - Left Hand Column

Not shown onscreen.

Page 3 -Right Hand Column

1) I'll Take You (Heartache and All);
2) Somewhere In The Night (third appearance);
3) My Baby Drives a Buick (third appearance);
4) Who Will You Run To;
5) Magic Man (Live);
6) A Lonely Place (Second Appearance);
7) This Magic Moment (Second Appearance);
8) Since I Don't Have You (Second Appearance);
9) Crystal Blue Persuasion (Second Appearance);

Page 4 - Left Hand Column

Not shown onscreen.

Page 4 - Right Hand Column

1) Magic Man (Live) (Second Appearance);
2) Don't Stop Believing;
3) Anyway You Want It;
4) I'll Never Be In Love Again;
5) Rock It Billy;
6) I've Gotta Be Me (Second Appearance);
7) A Lonely Place (Second Appearance).

- - -

Obviously, a lot of the song titles clearly resonate with themes throughout the show. I'm curious as to why "My Baby Drives a Buick" was included prominently three separate times. Any remarkable appearances of a Buick in the show? Places I'm going to look for are Junior or Johnny's car in flashbacks, Livia's car (esp. when she ran over her friend); or the car used in the various countryside driving dreams when Tony was in the backseat.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Back to my major gripe about the show... I feel like they could have written this as the ending for season 4, and it would have been every bit as effective. Seasons 4-7 for me were mostly just weak or redundant. I mean, seriously... how many times did we tackle Christopher's addiction issue? I realize it really is that big a battle for many people, but christ does it make for boring TV the 5th time around. I think seasons 1-3 were fantastic, and after that the rest just isn't worth the time you have to put in.

Good thing for me then that I only watched Seasons 1-3 and then the final two episodes. I lost track of the show after Season 3, when I moved out of the country, and never started watching it again until two weeks ago.

[Anthony]

since when was "Don't Stop Believing" uncool? in NYC, it's a staple at the bars i go to.

The Macarena is uncool. Don't Stop Believing is a classic rock song. it's one of my top 50 favorite songs. i even used that song to end this video montage i made of a Halloween party i was a part of. it's a keeper.

[Passacaglia]

I live in Chicago, and don't remember Don't Stop Believin' being played in reference to the Sox. But then again, I probably just wasn't paying attention.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

since when was "Don't Stop Believing" uncool? in NYC, it's a staple at the bars i go to.

The Macarena is uncool. Don't Stop Believing is a classic rock song. it's one of my top 50 favorite songs. i even used that song to end this video montage i made of a Halloween party i was a part of. it's a keeper.

Lol...slight generation gap, I guess?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

since when was "Don't Stop Believing" uncool? in NYC, it's a staple at the bars i go to.

The Macarena is uncool. Don't Stop Believing is a classic rock song. it's one of my top 50 favorite songs. i even used that song to end this video montage i made of a Halloween party i was a part of. it's a keeper.

I've observed the love for the song at bars, but I always assumed it was an ironic enthusiasm. On the other hand, nobody would be even ironically fired up about the Macarena. So I think there's a certain kind of uncool that makes something cool again.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by molson

I've observed the love for the song at bars, but I always assumed it was an ironic enthusiasm. On the other hand, nobody would be even ironically fired up about the Macarena. So I think there's a certain kind of uncool that makes something cool again.

bingo

[OldGiants]

There's no ambiguity at all. Tony was shot and died. As has been mentioned by several, the place was full of folks who wanted Tony dead.

I considered the 'fade to black' to be his death. My sister agreed and pointed out that:

" In one of the early episodes of the sopranos, tonys talking with bobby
about what it must feel like to die. Bobby says "at the end, you probably dont hear anything, everything just goes black"

She pointed out a few episodes back Tony remembered this conversation as he was falling asleep.

It was well setup, if you were paying attention.

[Anthony]

i haven't seen the ending yet but got tired of skipping all the talk so i read how it ends. i agree the ending is consistent with how Chase has handled the series. set up very nicely.

however, and i've said it before, the storyteller - not the artist, mind you - has a duty to tell the story. the artist leaves room for interpretation. the storyteller gives you the beginning, middle and the end. you don't tell us about Hansel & Gretle and fade to black right when Hansel gives the witch a chicken bone. i honestly believe endings like this are cop-outs, they are the failure of the storyteller to provide a definitive closure to a story out of fears it won't hold up over time. this is a failure on Chase's part. he was not up to the task of killing off one of tv's treasured characters, so he leaves us off with a black screen. "here", he says, "you pull the trigger". again, i agree the ending was done well, but a climax is not an ending. Chase took the easy way out and leaves the rest up to the viewer, whose job isn't to finish the story. if i have to finish Chase's story for him then pay me some of his salary and i'll do it.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by OldGiants

There's no ambiguity at all. Tony was shot and died. As has been mentioned by several, the place was full of folks who wanted Tony dead.

I considered the 'fade to black' to be his death. My sister agreed and pointed out that:

" In one of the early episodes of the sopranos, tonys talking with bobby
about what it must feel like to die. Bobby says "at the end, you probably dont hear anything, everything just goes black"

She pointed out a few episodes back Tony remembered this conversation as he was falling asleep.

It was well setup, if you were paying attention.

This is all asuumption. There is no way to know for sure. It was set up so that any number of things could happen on purpose.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by OldGiants

There's no ambiguity at all. Tony was shot and died. As has been mentioned by several, the place was full of folks who wanted Tony dead....

It was well setup, if you were paying attention.

You might want to read this article about and interview with Chase (especially the last paragraph on page 4):

"Not from Chase, but I feel the need to debunk the e-mail that's making the rounds about all the Holsten's patrons being characters from earlier in the series. The actor playing Members Only guy had never been on the show; Tony killed at least one, if not both, of his carjackers; and there are about 17 other things wrong with this popular but incorrect theory."

The reason I'm still not buying the Tony is dead theory is that wouldn't the last thing we saw be Meadow instead of Tony? If we were watching Tony's last moments, wouldn't we see his daughter charging in? It just makes more sense from a director's perspective since that whole scene was really from Tony's view. Why then do we just he his face at the end?

The Tony is dead theory is plausible, but still inclined to believe that things are intentionally ambiguous.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by John Galt

You might want to read this article about and interview with Chase (especially the last paragraph on page 4):

"Not from Chase, but I feel the need to debunk the e-mail that's making the rounds about all the Holsten's patrons being characters from earlier in the series. The actor playing Members Only guy had never been on the show; Tony killed at least one, if not both, of his carjackers; and there are about 17 other things wrong with this popular but incorrect theory."

The reason I'm still not buying the Tony is dead theory is that wouldn't the last thing we saw be Meadow instead of Tony? If we were watching Tony's last moments, wouldn't we see his daughter charging in? It just makes more sense from a director's perspective since that whole scene was really from Tony's view. Why then do we just he his face at the end?

The Tony is dead theory is plausible, but still inclined to believe that things are intentionally ambiguous.

We see Meadow running into the place. At the moment where she would be opening the door to come in, it switches to Tony and we hear the bell ring as if someone has opened the door, Tony looks up for half a second, then black.

[molson]

Originally Posted by OldGiants

There's no ambiguity at all. Tony was shot and died.

The more I think about it, the more obvious this seems. I don't believe that the restaraunt was "full of people" who wanted him dead. The simplest explanation is that the one guy went to bathroom so he could take out Tony at an angle where he wouldn't see him coming (and where he could do it at close enough range as to avoid hitting the family). I have heard no other explanation as to why things would cut off when they did.

I'm trying to imagine how showing the final hit (if that's what it was), would have come across on the screen. That kind of ending would have surprised me. It would have felt very non-Sopranos.

[molson]

Originally Posted by John Galt

The reason I'm still not buying the Tony is dead theory is that wouldn't the last thing we saw be Meadow instead of Tony? If we were watching Tony's last moments, wouldn't we see his daughter charging in? It just makes more sense from a director's perspective since that whole scene was really from Tony's view. Why then do we just he his face at the end?

The show has never been from Tony’s POV in a literal sense. I think it could have just been an artistic interpretation of death.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

We see Meadow running into the place. At the moment where she would be opening the door to come in, it switches to Tony and we hear the bell ring as if someone has opened the door, Tony looks up for half a second, then black.

I know what we see. My point is that it would make more sense to not show Tony's face last if you really want to see the truncation as the end of his life. Things would "fade to black" only if you were looking through Tony's eyes. My argument doesn't automatically discount the Tony is dead theory - it is just a point about the direction that makes me think the theory less sound.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by molson

The show has never been from Tony’s POV in a literal sense. I think it could have just been an artistic interpretation of death.

Yeah, but so much of the last scene was. And the truncated scene with a fade to black just makes more sense if we are looking through Tony's eyes. There is no reason if you are shooting third person to end so abruptly. Shooting first person, on the other hand, makes perfect sense for a cut ending.

[molson]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I know what we see. My point is that it would make more sense to not show Tony's face last if you really want to see the truncation as the end of his life. Things would "fade to black" only if you were looking through Tony's eyes. My argument doesn't automatically discount the Tony is dead theory - it is just a point about the direction that makes me think the theory less sound.

Showing Meadow (From Tony's point of view) with the last scene would make it super-obvious what Chase was going for, and it would probably come off as a little cheesy.

[gottimd]

Question, if Tony was about to be shot, assuming at close range, Meadow was running up straight at him.....wouldn't her facial expression change if presumably someone was a foot away from Tony with a gun pointed at his head most likely in her clear view?

[molson]

Originally Posted by gottimd

Question, if Tony was about to be shot, assuming at close range, Meadow was running up straight at him.....wouldn't her facial expression change if presumably someone was a foot away from Tony with a gun pointed at his head most likely in her clear view?

The time between the door opening and the end of the show is less then a second. Maybe enough time for Meadow to have a reaction, but not enough for Tony to have a reaction to Meadow.

If they did a Tony POV of Meadow looking shocked, it would have felt very amateur film schoolish.

[NoMyths]

We need to clear something up: what occurred at the end was not a fade to black -- there was no fading. The shot cut to black from Tony.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

We need to clear something up: what occurred at the end was not a fade to black -- there was no fading. The shot cut to black from Tony.

That's true. I'll stop saying "fade to black."

[bosshogg23]

The finale shown wasn't the complete ending that was shot apparently. The entire ending that was shot includes Meadow sitting down at the table and the Members Only jacket guy approaching the table then the cut to black. This is according to the guy who played the FBI Agent.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/06122007...iss.htm?page=2

[Radii]

I'm with JG here. There is definite ambiguity. I'm really leaning towards the more subtle explanation that the stress that every viewer had waiting for something terrible to happen is just the way life will go on for the Soprano family, however long it goes on for. We see every person as a threat, every time the door opens we assume the worst, every time someone glances over we expect the hit to be coming. We expected something terrible to happen while Meadow was trying to park her car, while she was running across the street, when the Members Only Jacket guy walks to the bathroom, and that's all there is. That *is* Tony Soprano's life, that feeling that was instilled in every viewer during the last 5 minutes is the feeling that Tony has every second of every day. We don't know when, or how it will end, but we know that it will, and that every moment Tony has is spent fearing the worst in everyone.

I'm sure all of the above has already been said by people here, but after reading reactions all over the place, that seems to be where I'm settling. And it doesn't mean that Tony didn't get killed by one of those people 5 minutes later, just that it didn't necessarily happen then, and it doesn't really matter when or how it happens.

[Logan]

Just another vote to say that, as HA pointed out, "Don't Stop Believin" has been a monster bar song in NY/NJ for awhile. And yes, it kicks ass.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Radii

I'm with JG here. There is definite ambiguity. I'm really leaning towards the more subtle explanation that the stress that every viewer had waiting for something terrible to happen is just the way life will go on for the Soprano family, however long it goes on for. We see every person as a threat, every time the door opens we assume the worst, every time someone glances over we expect the hit to be coming. We expected something terrible to happen while Meadow was trying to park her car, while she was running across the street, when the Members Only Jacket guy walks to the bathroom, and that's all there is. That *is* Tony Soprano's life, that feeling that was instilled in every viewer during the last 5 minutes is the feeling that Tony has every second of every day. We don't know when, or how it will end, but we know that it will, and that moment Tony has is spent fearing the worst in everyone.

I'm sure all of the above has already been said by people here, but after reading reactions all over the place, that seems to be where I'm settling. And it doesn't mean that Tony didn't get killed by one of those people 5 minutes later, just that it didn't necessarily happen then, and it doesn't really matter when or how it happens.

This is how I see it as well.

[Radii]

I'm kinda suprised no one has mentioned the fact that Tony, while fingering through the music selections, goes over a couple songs by Tony Bennett including “I’ve Gotta Be Me” before choosing Journey. I'm not the type that's good at pulling meaning out of small events like that, but it was something I noticed and expected to read a lot about.

[molson]

Originally Posted by bosshogg23

The finale shown wasn't the complete ending that was shot apparently. The entire ending that was shot includes Meadow sitting down at the table and the Members Only jacket guy approaching the table then the cut to black. This is according to the guy who played the FBI Agent.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/06122007...iss.htm?page=2

The rest of his comments are pretty interesting -

"[Tony's daughter] Meadow got into the diner, sat down . . . The menacing 'Members Only' jacket-wearing man at the counter was a little bit more in play, and I think she's sitting there with the family kind of all together . . . and all of a sudden, the menacing man gets up, starts walking toward their booth. End of show," Servitto said.

"The scene cut as the [menacing] guy was advancing toward [Tony], as if he was about to shoot Tony. It was, I think, less ambiguous that Tony was going to get shot."

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Radii

it doesn't really matter when or how it happens.

Yes.

And, if Tony somehow manages to avoid a hit for the next five minutes or the next 30 years, all he really has to look forward to is that stress filled life and probably dying alone of dementia.

(All of which makes you wonder if getting killed would be the worst thing for Tony.)

[path12]

Originally Posted by Radii

I'm with JG here. There is definite ambiguity. I'm really leaning towards the more subtle explanation that the stress that every viewer had waiting for something terrible to happen is just the way life will go on for the Soprano family, however long it goes on for. We see every person as a threat, every time the door opens we assume the worst, every time someone glances over we expect the hit to be coming. We expected something terrible to happen while Meadow was trying to park her car, while she was running across the street, when the Members Only Jacket guy walks to the bathroom, and that's all there is. That *is* Tony Soprano's life, that feeling that was instilled in every viewer during the last 5 minutes is the feeling that Tony has every second of every day. We don't know when, or how it will end, but we know that it will, and that every moment Tony has is spent fearing the worst in everyone.

I'm sure all of the above has already been said by people here, but after reading reactions all over the place, that seems to be where I'm settling. And it doesn't mean that Tony didn't get killed by one of those people 5 minutes later, just that it didn't necessarily happen then, and it doesn't really matter when or how it happens.

This is the explanation I'm settling on also. I don't think he got shot. Right then anyway.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Radii

I'm kinda suprised no one has mentioned the fact that Tony, while fingering through the music selections, goes over a couple songs by Tony Bennett including “I’ve Gotta Be Me” before choosing Journey. I'm not the type that's good at pulling meaning out of small events like that, but it was something I noticed and expected to read a lot about.

I posted what someone recorded as the songs he flipped through up above. I didn't watch the show, so I don't know what meaning, if any, the song titles might have to the show.

[Bad-example]

Tim Goodman addresses the finale and makes a pretty convincing argument that the cut to black leaves Tony alive and kicking. As usual, he is worth a read: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/...entry_id=17571

[Karlifornia]

Battlestar Galactica finale..as directed by David Chase

[Karlifornia]

Citizen Kane..as directed by David Chase

[Karlifornia]

The Godfather..as directed by David Chase

[Qwikshot]

http://www.slate.com/id/2168397/

Harry Potter as ended by David Chase...

[Anthony]

[insert any movie/show here] as directed by Chase.

we get the point now.

[JasonC23]

what better









(jbmagic by David Chase)

[Surtt]

Being cynical...
I think Tony Died,
but it was purposely left the ambiguous so he could be resurrected if a movie is ever made.

[molson]

Most detailed analysis of the final 5 minutes that I've seen.

I totally missed that Tony was eating an orange earlier in the episode - that basically clinches the "Tony's whacked" theory (though I'd agree Chase didn't go all the way, in part, in the off chance that there's a movie).

http://www.bobharris.com/content/view/1406/1/

[SunDevil]

Originally Posted by molson

Most detailed analysis of the final 5 minutes that I've seen.

I totally missed that Tony was eating an orange earlier in the episode - that basically clinches the "Tony's whacked" theory (though I'd agree Chase didn't go all the way, in part, in the off chance that there's a movie).

http://www.bobharris.com/content/view/1406/1/

I find it interesting the reading into hints or things in the last scene. Whether actually true or not, it was still nonetheless entertaining.

[ISiddiqui]

Just saw it on DVR...

I thought it was a great finale episode. The ambiguity at the end was brilliant. I think he ends up getting shot. The series is told through Tony's eyes and after he's been popped, it just ends... no music, no visuals... nothing. Because he got killed in the blink of an eye, in the middle of dinner.

Though I can also see that life goes on, but Tony is always, always looking over his shoulder at every possibly threat, forever. Though the cut to black
and seconds of silent black screen indicate to me that Tony's dead.

Though definately an ending that'll be talked about for a loooong time.