Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)

[miked]

Actually, you should open your borders and allow free movement of people who stated their sole existence is to wipe Jews off the planet. After all, they probably won't kill everyone.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miked

Actually, you should open your borders and allow free movement of people who stated their sole existence is to wipe Jews off the planet. After all, they probably won't kill everyone.

I'd argue any population who has been oppressed this long and locked in a concentration camp would likely hold some ill feelings toward their captors. You should see the rhetoric that was thrown around the United States when people were asked to wear a mask at Target.

Regardless, one side is actually performing the genocide at the moment. It's not the Palestinians.

[GrantDawg]

Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?

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[RainMaker]

Yes, everyone has a right to exist in a free society. I do not believe Israel has a right to continue being an apartheid state that commits genocide against a population of people. I don't believe they have a right to continue to steal land and banish people through violent means.

[GrantDawg]

So they have a right to exist as long as they completely surrender to the Palestinians?

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[Edward64]

Looks like the end of the beginning ...

... the IDF is conducting a targeted operation in a defined area at Shifa hospital based on intelligence information and operational necessity

🔴 Operational Update:
IDF forces are carrying out a precise and targeted operation against Hamas in a specified area in the Shifa Hospital, based on intelligence information and an operational necessity.

The IDF is conducting a ground operation in Gaza to defeat Hamas and…

— Israel Defense Forces (@IDF) November 15, 2023

[Edward64]

Can't vouch for the translation, but if true pretty funny.

Al-Jazeera TV was asking this poor wounded old Palestinian man to give his eyewitness testimony; he said: what’s happening is criminal! Why is the resistance (Hamas) hiding among us? Why don’t they go to hell and hide there? They are not resistance!!

The journalist cut him off! pic.twitter.com/evrVfpCfj5

— Aimen Dean (@AimenDean) November 14, 2023

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

So they have a right to exist as long as they completely surrender to the Palestinians?

If ending apartheid and genocide is "surrendering", then yes. Seems like a pretty low bar to earn our support. Would you support South Afroca or Rhodesia?

[GrantDawg]

I support a two-state solution. I believe there have been many reason that hasn't happened yet from both sides. I don't believe there is genocide, and I think the miss use of that word cheapens its meaning.

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[RainMaker]

I mean I didn't define the word so your beef would be with whoever did that. Deliberately killing a group based on their ethnicity while they're penned into a concentration camp is about as close to the definition as you can get.

[GrantDawg]

Hey Edward, define "genocide".

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[Carman Bulldog]

Via The Economist, which Allsides.com assesses as having a left leaning bias...

How the term “genocide” is misused in the Israel-Hamas war
Accusations of the heinous crime abound

MANY GOVERNMENTS and citizens are appalled by the civilian casualties from Israel’s bombardment and invasion of Gaza, which is its response to Hamas’s attack on Israel. On October 10th the Palestinian envoy to the UN, Riyad Mansour, described Israel’s actions as “nothing less than genocidal”. Iran and Iraq have also accused Israel of genocide. Politically, it is clear why Israel’s enemies should invoke the heinous crime. But the allegation has also been made by countries that have usually been friendly to Israel. Colombia, Honduras and South Africa have all withdrawn their ambassadors from Israel, accusing its government of committing “genocide”.

Protesters and commentators in the West use the term too. “It is now clear that Israel is engaging in a genocide of the Palestinian people,” argued M. Muhannad Ayyash, a professor of sociology at Mount Royal University in Calgary, Canada. Craig Mokhiber, director of the New York office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, wrote on October 28th that “This is a text-book case of genocide.” Israel has both denied genocide and accused Hamas of the crime. Gilad Erdan, Israel’s permanent representative to the UN, said on October 26th that “This is not a war with the Palestinians. Israel is at war with the genocidal Hamas terrorist organisation.” What exactly is genocide, and how, if at all, is the term applicable to the current conflict?

In December 1948, in the aftermath of the second world war, the UN adopted the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. The convention defines a genocide as acts intended “to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”. Contrary to the common understanding of the term, the UN says not only killing counts. “Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction” does too, as does inflicting “serious bodily or mental harm”, “measures intended to prevent births”, and “forcibly transferring children of the group to another group”. Categorising atrocities as genocide has legal implications. The International Criminal Court is able to indict someone for the crime, for example.

Interpretations of the convention differ because it is so broadly framed. So which atrocities constitute genocide? The systematic murder of 6m Jews by the Nazis was genocide. The organised butchery of perhaps 500,000 ethnic Tutsis by Hutu militias in Rwanda in 1994 was too. In both cases the intent, to destroy a people, was clear. Yet the case of Darfur, in Sudan, where about 300,000 people died in the years after fighting broke out there in 2003, is less clear. America called this a genocide. But in 2005 a UN commission concluded that Sudan’s government had “not pursued a policy of genocide” (although some individuals may have acted with “genocidal intent”). Donald Trump’s administration called the Chinese government’s treatment of the Uyghurs in Xinjiang a genocide but others disagreed. This newspaper concluded that China’s persecution of the Uyghurs was “horrific”, but not genocidal.

By the UN definition, Hamas is a genocidal organisation. Its founding charter, published in 1988, explicitly commits it to obliterating Israel. Article 7 states that “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them”. Article 13 rejects any compromise, or peace, until Israel is destroyed. Hamas fighters who burst into Israel on October 7th and killed more than 1,400 Israelis (and other nationalities) were carrying out the letter of their genocidal law.

Israel, by contrast, does not meet the test of genocide. There is little evidence that Israel, like Hamas, “intends” to destroy an ethnic group—the Palestinians. Israel does want to destroy Hamas, a militant group, and is prepared to kill civilians in doing so. And while some Israeli extremists might want to eradicate the Palestinians, that is not a government policy.

Neither do the Israelis display any obvious intent to prevent Palestinian births. But those who accuse it of genocide point to the large number of civilians killed, at least 10,000 so far, and claim its blockade of the strip meets the “conditions-of-life” criterion. The Israelis have clearly inflicted “serious bodily or mental harm” on the Palestinians. They have also displaced people from the north of the strip. If those people are not allowed to return, this could be considered a partial destruction of their territory or, as Jan Egeland, a former UN head of humanitarian and relief efforts, has warned, a forcible population transfer.

Even if an army’s actions do not pass the threshold of genocide, they can still be wrong. As the UN concluded during its report into Darfur, “crimes against humanity and war crimes that have been committed…may be no less serious and heinous than genocide”.

[GrantDawg]

"crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part."
That's the UN definition. Since a part of the legal qualifications is "intent", and Israeli intent is to destroy a government/terrorist body in Hamas, this would not be considered genocide. When every conflict is labeled a "genocide" it cheapens the meaning.
Now when Hamas calls for the death of all Jews, that is calling for genocide.

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[GrantDawg]

Or what Carman posted.

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[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Hey Edward, define "genocide".

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Oh, now you think definitions are important.

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

Via The Economist, which Allsides.com assesses as having a left leaning bias...

I'll also toss in Vox's article below

Why Israel has been accused of committing genocide in Gaza - Vox

As bloody as the war in Gaza has been so far, it may not fit the popular conception many have of genocide from the 20th century, when the death tolls were far larger and, in retrospect, the intent by perpetrators to wipe out an entire people was undeniable. But there are different ways to define genocide — from the colloquial to the scholarly and political to the strict legal sense. And it is the legal definition, which includes a narrow set of criteria, that ultimately determines formal accountability.

On that score, most experts, with a couple of prominent exceptions, say that it is not possible to prove Israel’s actions meet that legal threshold right now. “I don’t think it’s genocidal yet. I think it can easily be,” said Ernesto Verdeja, an associate professor of political science and peace studies at the University of Notre Dame. “At this point, it’s a little hard to put all the pieces together.”

[GrantDawg]

I thought you would enjoy that.

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[Edward64]

Redditors are reporting X stuff that says fighting is happening inside the Al-Shifa compound now (multiple buildings etc.).

Damn, I didn't know Doctors & Nurses had access to weapons and could fight so well. They've done a great job in holding back the IDF for about 3-4 days now.

[RainMaker]

I didn't know Doctors without Borders and the Red Cross were Hamas but here we are. 11,000 dead including 4600 children. 4600 children and it's not even close to being over.

All of you will pretend to have not supported this in 20 years. Just like the folks who supported South Africa and Rhodesia.

[Edward64]

I am assuming many Palestinians share the same question.

From Hamas telegram:

“Violent shooting at the gate of Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza now The army is firing heavily towards Al-Shifa Hospital. The Minister of Health, I do not know what they are doing and who are shooting at sick people or at premature babies who are days old. What are they shooting at defenseless citizens??!!!”

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I am assuming many Palestinians share the same question.

And apparently, the BBC. See :10 and :25

IDF "We are coordinating with medical staff and Arabic speakers"@BBCWorld "The IDF says they are targeting medical staff and Arabic speakers."

BBC, just quit now.pic.twitter.com/fXfya2RViD

— The Mossad: Satirical, Yet Awesome (@TheMossadIL) November 15, 2023

And just in case it needs explaining...

Spoiler

Part of the tweet-before-verifying, lower reporting standards nowadays (on both sides) ...

Finally the BBC apologize! pic.twitter.com/iHk1iPIno2

— Libby Alon ליבי אלון (@libby_alon) November 15, 2023

[Edward64]

So much good stuff. If you have time, just listen to all of it.




From 3+ weeks ago. I stumbled across this, don't remember seeing them on western press but found it on Times of India.

No wonder Israel is losing the social media war. They really suck at it. It's like writing a novel with "Show, not Tell". No one wants to hear your Lt. Col media person "telling" us, you need to "show" people.

[RainMaker]

lol

The IDF just released their first photos/videos from the Shifa Hospital after last night's raid. I count 10 guns. The IDF has claimed that the "beating heart" of Hamas' operations is beneath Shifa.
Presumably they'll release more photos/videos?https://t.co/gZjhI4WW1X pic.twitter.com/NtWcZorZMI

— Aric Toler (@AricToler) November 15, 2023

[Carman Bulldog]

Basically any amount of guns - and assuming this is it, at least of what remains - corroborates Hamas using medical establishments in a manner that is a violation of international humanitarian law and in a fashion harmful to the enemy. So I'm not really seeing the "lol" of all of this.

[RainMaker]

Half of Republican voters in this country have a bigger arsenal than that. You killed a bunch of people and destroyed a hospital for 8 guns.

[Flasch186]

You?


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[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

You?


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He meant "you people."

[GrantDawg]

I will be surprised if they don't find tunnels, since I have been told all day that the tunnels/bunkers were there but actually built by Israel in 1983. It is always confusing when one piece of propaganda contradicts another piece of propaganda but then I guess like Trumpers you just claim both are true to whoever wants to believe it.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Half of Republican voters in this country have a bigger arsenal than that. You killed a bunch of people and destroyed a hospital for 8 guns.

In terms of what was left behind, I count 11 guns and three grenades, along with some tactical vests or body armor of some sort. Obviously it's not a massive cache, although I'm not sure if that's what they were expecting to find. Even if it was being used by Hamas for that purpose, it would seem prudent on their part to get as much out of there as possible as soon as the IDF was moving in. If the number isn't zero, then I'm also not sure what the cut-off is supposed to be in terms of guns and grenades inside what is supposed to be a military free zone under international law.

In any event, it does seem to corroborate what both the IDF and the USDOD were saying about Hamas using hospitals to carry out some sort of military operations, be that housing hostages or something else. It also gives more credence to the alleged armory in the basement of the children's hospital.

Finally, it's yet another example of information coming from Hamas or the Hamas-run Health Ministry which is later debunked, including:

• Israel airstrike on the al-Ahli Hospital kills 500 people
• Hamas does not use people as human shields
• Hamas does not use hospitals for military operations

You'll have to forgive me when I'm skeptical about anything Hamas or the Health Ministry claims (likewise, I appreciate this goes both ways in terms of some of the claims coming out of Israel).

As an aside, I will say that for an "open air prison," the MRI centre in Gaza City looks more modern and in better condition than the last place I went to for an MRI, although that may be more of an indictment on Canadian health care than it is on the conditions in Gaza.

[RainMaker]

Well I think Hamas and IDF lie a lot. It would be good to have reporters on the ground but they keep dying from explosions.

[RainMaker]

Trump was right. Their PR team sucks now. Never would have seen this kind of incompetence in propaganda 20 years ago.

The photo of the weapons being laid out in an IDF press release has the filename of "WhatsApp_Image_2023-11-15_at_17.53.35.jpeg", so we know the weapons were laid out before the Fox News crew arrived. https://t.co/5SGDI5UimT

— Aric Toler (@AricToler) November 16, 2023

at 3:31 in the IDF youtube video posted at shifa hospital, ltc Conricus' watch reads 13:18. this is after he tours the dark MRI room in the video pic.twitter.com/b7GjDqB3p8

— aj (@ajquery) November 16, 2023

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Trump was right. Their PR team sucks now. Never would have seen this kind of incompetence in propaganda 20 years ago.

I don't know what the conspiracy issues is?

What's the issue with IDF laying out/arranging/tossing weapons into a pile etc. before FoxNews came into the room?

If the real question is did IDF get these weapons from outside Al-Shifa compound and plant them inside this specific room in Al-Shifa, this is a valid question.

But whether weapons were collected and put together for FoxNews isn't relevant.

[Edward64]

But yeah, like the Jihadi said, there is incompetence in propaganda here. Who couldn't anticipate suspicion with "hey we found weapons" and done a better job of trying to convince (at least) western audiences. It just seems IDF wants the Lt. Col media person to control the narrative (understandable) but they are supporting the narrative with weak evidence.

What IDF needs to do better:

1) 1-2 days ago, IDF is saying they are shooting at baddies inside the Al-Shifa compound. Why aren't there any videos of those engagements?

We know some soldiers have body/helmet cams etc. If there are any videos (and there should be), they should be sharing that widely with media outlets (after blocking faces) saying "see that flash, that's from this building from the Al-Shifa compound, we shot back"


2) Similarly, IDF attacked/stormed 1-2 buildings of Al-Shifa (not the entire compound). Did they kill anyone shooting at them? If they did, they should be sharing those videos of combat inside the Al-Shifa compound.

And if they did kill some baddies in the hallways, they should absolutely be showing those bodies with the weapons beside them. So far, I haven't seen any.


3) 1-2 days ago, IDF showed drone shot of a terrorist with a RPG walking to the hospital front. They spliced the film to a black-and-white supposedly showing the RPG was shot from the baddie but I couldn't see the baddie actually doing the shooting.

At best, they can say a baddie with a RPG walked to the front steps of the hospital. So what? Better if they continued the drone shot to actually show the shot. See below.





4) 2-3 days ago, IDF produced a clip that said this is a tunnel that leads into/near hospital (not the Al-Shifa one). They showed the IDF guy outside the tunnel (fine), in the basement (fine), showed some stuff (fine), showed a schedule on who was watching hostages (fine) and that was it.

They needed to show entry-basement-exit into (or near) hospital grounds. By not showing the exit, it made everything meaningless. Of course, Hamas has tunnels and bunkers. The question is are they using them inside or near hospital grounds?




In summary, the IDF is fighting the media war from the 2000's. Above #3 and #4 are just stupid, self-inflicted shit. Just like I question stupid Hamas propaganda like the JDAM attack, I also question the IDF stuff.

Both sides, always important.

[RainMaker]

The "bleeding heart of Hamas" turned out to be the gun safe of your average Texan.

[RainMaker]

Biden vouched for you ffs. They owe it to spend an afternoon making that shit look realistic. Going to need way more guns in the room for starters. Have a bunch of laptops too running a Matrix screensaver or something cool.

Or just hire the guy who made Fauda to help. This should not be hard. We're giving you billions.

[Edward64]

As like the JDAM, way too soon to tell. IDF does not control and has not searched the entire compound yet.

Let's see what they come up with after they control & search the entire compound, including underneath.

I believe it's that middle trapezoid.

[Edward64]

Some updates:

1) 2 hostages found dead. But found "near/adjacent" Al-Shifa so does not factor into the Al-Shifa command center narrative.

2) Supposedly negotiations on cease fire for hostages. It seemed imminent but seems to have cooled off for whatever reason

3) Haven't seen any reports of fighting in the Al-Shifa complex. Assume it's been "secured" by now and IDF is searching through it.

4) Al-Shifa said they had dug up mass grave (understandable) before IDF arrived. Supposedly, IDF will be digging it up to see if there are any hostages in there.

5) Tunnel & more arms found at Al-Shifa. Haven't seen any reports of what is inside the tunnel yet. No longer "gun safe for average Texan", maybe more of a Texas militia (but RPGs would be hard to come by)

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

Yes, because Palestinians are in favour of a two-state solution while the citizens of Israel are not. Or not.

Just to add another poll to the list on Palestinian in favor of 2-state. From Nov 14, done by Arab World for Research and Development.

https://www.awrad.org/files/server/p...%20Results.pdf

See Table 33. Gaza & West Bank total 75% against either 1 or 2-state solution.

Table 33: Do you support the solution of establishing one state or two states in the following formats: (Disaggregated
by region)

I think we can conclusively say the vast majority of Palestinians are against a 2-state solution.

Or to say it differently, 75% of Palestinians are in favor of "river to sea" e.g. without Israelis.

[RainMaker]

lol whoopsie, the hospital actually wasn't the headquarters for Hamas and there isn't a 10 story fortress underneath. I'd say another intelligence miss but I think it was just thrown out there as fodder for the dumbest people.

Break: Ehud Olmert tells me Hamas command center is in Khan Younis - not #Shifa hospital.
“Khan Younis, which is in the southern part of Gaza Strip, is the real headquarters of Hamas.”

— Shona Murray (@ShonaMurray_) November 17, 2023

Guess we are off to the REAL headquarters this time. Sorry about the hospital.

[GrantDawg]

The stuff these guys do is so fantastic and brave:

Positioning our @WCKitchen trucks near Gaza. So we can join the humanitarian envoys.Wbring pellets for cooking, Cookstoves, water, Grains. Meats etc..we have big warehouse outside Cairo to make sure we will not stop supplying Gaza partners @AneraOrg as well as our own kitchens! pic.twitter.com/Byrrwfz0TP

— José Andrés ������������ (@chefjoseandres) November 17, 2023

[RainMaker]

It's about Hamas, not genocide they say.

As the Israeli military destroys the roads in Jenin, sealing off the people from medical care, food & water, we are reminded that Israel isn’t waging a “retaliatory war against Hamas”, but engaged in process of eliminating the native population. pic.twitter.com/pjaNrmbvdA

— Good Shepherd Collective (@Shepherds4Good) November 16, 2023

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's about Hamas, not genocide they say.

Hard to tell, not much to go by in your video. But below article (I think) is related.

Israel kills Hamas militants in Jenin raid as violence surges in West Bank | Israel-Hamas war | The Guardian

Israeli security forces have mounted a major raid in the city of Jenin, destroying roads and killing between three and five Hamas militants in the latest instance of surging violence across the occupied West Bank.

Hamas said three of its fighters died in the overnight raid, which began late on Thursday night and lasted about eight hours. Israeli military officials said their forces had killed at least five.

Hamas’s al-Quds Brigades in Jenin said in a statement on Friday they had engaged Israeli forces for several hours, unleashing a “torrent of fire” and laying ambushes with explosives.

Last week, Israeli forces raided Jenin and fought for hours with gunmen in a battle in which 14 people were killed, one of the heaviest clashes in the occupied West Bank in months.

[RainMaker]

They tore up roads and raided a hospital in Jenin, an area where Hamas has little to no power. Maybe the super secret Hamas fortress was there and not in the other hospital they told us it was in for weeks.

[RainMaker]

It probably has nothing to do with Israel wanting to take full control of Jenin with settlers and cleanse it of Palestinian refugees. Something they've been slowly doing for many years. It's definitely about Hamas.

[GrantDawg]

"Hamas’s al-Quds Brigades in Jenin said in a statement on Friday they had engaged Israeli forces for several hours, unleashing a “torrent of fire” and laying ambushes with explosives"

It was kind of Hamas to lie about being there to help with that Israeli takeover.

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[RainMaker]

Hamas has a minuscule presence in the West Bank. The October 7th attack came from Gaza. Illegal settlers commit far more violence in that area on an almost daily basis than whatever handful of Hamas fighters (probably PIJ) is doing.

Regardless, what does that have to do with roads leading to the refugee camp and the hospital?

[GrantDawg]

I don't know, but it is interesting they are playing along with Israeli pretend justification.

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[RainMaker]

They don't need justification to continue doing something they did long before October 7th. Israel has been cleansing the West Bank for decades.

I think the lack of support globally from younger people and the proliferation of social media will cause them to speed up their plans. This is probably the last chance they'll ever have to "cleanse" regions before the next generation takes over and won't allow them to do it.

[GrantDawg]

So you are suggesting Hamas just wants to play along with the narrative recognizing the 3 killed as theirs and talking about a prolonged fight where they ambushed the IDF. I just wonder what their benefit is to lie for the Israelis.

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[RainMaker]

They aren't lying. They have a very small presence in the West Bank. Not sure what that has to do with tearing up a road and shutting down another hospital by force.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Hamas has a minuscule presence in the West Bank. The October 7th attack came from Gaza. Illegal settlers commit far more violence in that area on an almost daily basis than whatever handful of Hamas fighters (probably PIJ) is doing.

It doesn't matter if Hamas has a "miniscule" presence in West Bank (e.g. how do you define miniscule and do you count Hamas sympathizers?). It doesn't matter the Oct 7th attack came from Gaza. It matters if there's been Jenin militants (Hamas, PIJ, Fatah etc.) attacking IDF or Israeli civilians. And yes, there has been attacks.

Illegal settlers commit more violence than Jenin militants on a "daily basis"? I assume this is just your opinion (like identifying JDAM strike via acoustics), but on the chance it isn't, please provide non-Twitter sources.

Regardless, what does that have to do with roads leading to the refugee camp and the hospital?

Good question about why so I googled on "why did israel tear up roads in jenin". Below are results from last July 4-5 conflict, easy enough to find if one wants to find the rationale.

Jenin under attack: Israel bulldozers 'plough' streets and destroy infrastructure | Middle East Eye

The Israeli army claimed its actions were aimed at detonating explosive devices planted by Palestinians in the streets and homes.

Israel carried out a massive military operation in Jenin. Here's what you need to know | CNN

That launched the incursion that involved hundreds of soldiers, at least ten drone airstrikes, and bulldozers that Israel says were used to disarm potential explosives buried under the asphalt.

The view from Jenin refugee camp in West Bank after Israel's withdrawal : NPR

This whole road has just been completely dug up by an Israeli bulldozer. It's - all the asphalt is completely torn up - that road and then this road too.

Israel said it destroyed over a mile and a half of roads because they were booby trapped with tripwire and hidden bombs, which are new tactics of an emboldened Palestinian militant force here.