Maximum Football??? - Page 7

SFL Cat · 02-06-2006, 10:41 PM

BTW any updates on the next Solecismic release?

*whistling a tune*

Ragone · 02-07-2006, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biological warrior

After further review: I will NOT be buying this game. This guy is a total joke.

you had to take a further review? thats like calling a qb who fell down at the 1 in for a touchdown.. err wait

albionmoonlight · 02-07-2006, 08:24 AM

One of the things that I find interesting about this discussion is how two groups of people seem to be arguing slightly different points--ships passing in the night and all that.

One group seems to be saying that it has no reason to believe that this game will be able to do all that it says that it can do. They point to the fact that there have been multiple missed deadlines by the release team, the fact that reputable text sim developers have indicated that this may be a bit . . . ambitious for a first game, the fact that this is a first generation product, and the fact that the lead programmer does not seem receptive to receiving constructive criticism. They point to all this and say that, based on all the available information, it is very unlikely that this game will come close to doing all that it says that it will be able to do on its feature list with a minimum of bugs.

Then there is a group of people who look at the proposed feature list, assume that everything will work perfectly and exactly how they see it in their head, and say that this game will be the best game ever.

The second group does not seem to "get" the first group's point, and the first group just does not believe the second group.

(There is, of course, a third group--people who have looked at the features that will be in the game and features that won't be in the game and have decided that the game will not meet their gaming needs. But this third group, while large and influential, does not fit into the dynamic I described above. And I think that a lot of them are also part of the first group, anyway.)

Bee · 02-07-2006, 08:34 AM

Can I have the name and addresses of the second group...I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I'm looking to sell.

Thanks!

B

QuikSand · 02-07-2006, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

One group seems to be saying that it has no reason to believe that this game will be able to do all that it says that it can do. They point to the fact that there have been multiple missed deadlines by the release team, the fact that reputable text sim developers have indicated that this may be a bit . . . ambitious for a first game, the fact that this is a first generation product, and the fact that the lead programmer does not seem receptive to receiving constructive criticism. They point to all this and say that, based on all the available information, it is very unlikely that this game will come close to doing all that it says that it will be able to do on its feature list with a minimum of bugs.

Then there is a group of people who look at the proposed feature list, assume that everything will work perfectly and exactly how they see it in their head, and say that this game will be the best game ever.

The second group does not seem to "get" the first group's point, and the first group just does not believe the second group.

There are two kinds of people in this world...

gstelmack · 02-07-2006, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

There are two kinds of people in this world...

"Those of you who think you know everything are really starting to annoy those of us who do."

The English teachers in my high school had this sign up in their teachers' lounge

Bonegavel · 02-07-2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

One of the things that I find interesting about this discussion is how two groups of people seem to be arguing slightly different points--ships passing in the night and all that.

One group seems to be saying that it has no reason to believe that this game will be able to do all that it says that it can do. They point to the fact that there have been multiple missed deadlines by the release team, the fact that reputable text sim developers have indicated that this may be a bit . . . ambitious for a first game, the fact that this is a first generation product, and the fact that the lead programmer does not seem receptive to receiving constructive criticism. They point to all this and say that, based on all the available information, it is very unlikely that this game will come close to doing all that it says that it will be able to do on its feature list with a minimum of bugs.

Then there is a group of people who look at the proposed feature list, assume that everything will work perfectly and exactly how they see it in their head, and say that this game will be the best game ever.

The second group does not seem to "get" the first group's point, and the first group just does not believe the second group.

Group 2 is still sitting in drydock.

Bonegavel · 02-07-2006, 01:07 PM

Look, when the guys states that there isn't a draft (which is such a huge part of the National Football League) what else has been left out? There is just a pool of free agents to select from at the begining of each season!?

I think this guy oversold himself on the idea that being able to create a football league with 27 downs, 439 yard long fields, 88 players on the field at once, and 1,000 teams per league is a good expenditure of code time.

Well, it is his game, but it is not going to appeal to anyone that is looking for an NFL sim (like FOF).

People that want a graphical football game will play Madden.

People that want a career sim will play FOF (for PRO) and BBCF or TCY (for College).

What niche is Gluteus Maximum trying to fill or create?

Butter · 02-07-2006, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonegavel

What niche is Gluteus Maximum trying to fill or create?

The same niche that Baseball Simulator 2.000 (or was it 1.000?) tried to fill on the old NES and SNES. For people who like to play their baseball in space, or have the pitcher throw rockets, or whatever. Maximum customizability regardless of the outcome. Probably trying to please both the CFL and NFL crowd all at once. But his game looks like crap, and SkyDog's rant over there was highly amusing.

Bee · 02-07-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonegavel

Look, when the guys states that there isn't a draft (which is such a huge part of the National Football League) what else has been left out? There is just a pool of free agents to select from at the begining of each season!?

I think this guy oversold himself on the idea that being able to create a football league with 27 downs, 439 yard long fields, 88 players on the field at once, and 1,000 teams per league is a good expenditure of code time.

Well, it is his game, but it is not going to appeal to anyone that is looking for an NFL sim (like FOF).

People that want a graphical football game will play Madden.

People that want a career sim will play FOF (for PRO) and BBCF or TCY (for College).

What niche is Gluteus Maximum trying to fill or create?

I think he's going after the old Front Page Sports Football fans that are also Arena Football and Canadian Football fans who aren't interested in career play. I'm not sure how big that niche is other than the 5 guys that post on the boards (and Bubba of course).

SFL Cat · 02-07-2006, 01:15 PM

Personally, I think he's going more for the FOF crowd that might want a little more eye-candy than text games traditionally deliver (say what you want about Madden, but I seriously doubt any small-time developer can match EA Sports in the graphics department).

Of course, not including options like a college draft for a career league and deep sortable stats (if comments about this are accurate) were probably a very poor design choices on his side and will lose some potential customers who otherwise might have tried out this game.

SFL Cat · 02-07-2006, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bee

I think he's going after the old Front Page Sports Football fans that are also Arena Football and Canadian Football fans who aren't interested in career play. I'm not sure how big that niche is other than the 5 guys that post on the boards (and Bubba of course).

Technically, FPS WAS the first career sim.

Bee · 02-07-2006, 01:19 PM

I don't think he's going after the FOF crowd considering how insulting he's been about text sims in general. I truly think he's going after that group of people with fond memories of Front Page Sports Football. Kind of like everyone who always clamors for an X-COM remake with better graphics, he's doing a FPS FB95 remake with better graphics.

Bee · 02-07-2006, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Technically, FPS WAS the first career sim.

I think there were ones before that, although not nearly as popular. I know Head Coach came out several years earlier and had "career play". In any case, I was saying the group he was going after were fans of the series not interested in career play...not that the series didn't have career play.

sabotai · 02-07-2006, 02:24 PM

This was posted by David Winter on his forums:

"Yes, I contacted 3 or 4 other groups. None of them was interested mostly because of ownership issues. There were no technical problems with our discussions. It was all doable as far as making it work technically. It came down to ownership. Basically these groups wanted to put Maximum-Footballs graphics system on their game and call it "Their Game - 3D" or somesuch. Where as I was simply looking for a Manager Mode black box to plug into my project.

Anyway, that obviously didn't work. Heck I was even willing to work out a deal that would allow our two projects to simply use the same database schema. You'd have to buy two games, but they could talk to each other. Each would give you things the other couldn't and they would work seamlessly together. They didn't like that either. They all pretty much said that because my game was graphical and used 3D game play and it's what would drive the sales, they were concerned their game would be look on as simply an add-on pack.

But as far as I know, none of the titles I was looking at is even around anymore. And I know that some of the key developers of those titles have gone onto bigger things."

(3 or 4 groups being Jim, Arlie and others)

Wondering if how he described it and their reasons for declining are accurate (I highly suspect they are not).

It also looks like he was trying to get someone else to do the hard work for him...

sabotai · 02-07-2006, 02:25 PM

dola,

Even if the game turned out to be something I might like, I probably wouldn't buy now. His attitude towards sports sims and their developers is just flat out condescending.

albionmoonlight · 02-07-2006, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabotai

This was posted by David Winter on his forums:

"Yes, I contacted 3 or 4 other groups. None of them was interested mostly because of ownership issues. There were no technical problems with our discussions. It was all doable as far as making it work technically. It came down to ownership. Basically these groups wanted to put Maximum-Footballs graphics system on their game and call it "Their Game - 3D" or somesuch. Where as I was simply looking for a Manager Mode black box to plug into my project.

Anyway, that obviously didn't work. Heck I was even willing to work out a deal that would allow our two projects to simply use the same database schema. You'd have to buy two games, but they could talk to each other. Each would give you things the other couldn't and they would work seamlessly together. They didn't like that either. They all pretty much said that because my game was graphical and used 3D game play and it's what would drive the sales, they were concerned their game would be look on as simply an add-on pack.

But as far as I know, none of the titles I was looking at is even around anymore. And I know that some of the key developers of those titles have gone onto bigger things."

(3 or 4 groups being Jim, Arlie and others)

Wondering if how he described it and their reasons for declining are accurate (I highly suspect they are not).

It also looks like he was trying to get someone else to do the hard work for him...

That's neat. The sense I get from this post is collaboration was made difficult because his idea just had so much freakin' awesome in it that other developers were terrified that they, much like the ill-fated Icarus, would crash into the sea and die from having had the hubris to fly too close to the fiery sun that is Maximum Football.

Bee · 02-07-2006, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

That's neat. The sense I get from this post is collaboration was made difficult because his idea just had so much freakin' awesome in it that other developers were terrified that they, much like the ill-fated Icarus, would crash into the sea and die from having had the hubris to fly too close to the fiery sun that is Maximum Football.

That should be nominated for best post of the year.

John Galt · 02-07-2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

That's neat. The sense I get from this post is collaboration was made difficult because his idea just had so much freakin' awesome in it that other developers were terrified that they, much like the ill-fated Icarus, would crash into the sea and die from having had the hubris to fly too close to the fiery sun that is Maximum Football.

SirFozzie · 02-07-2006, 02:54 PM

Sarcasm. The Other White Meat.

QuikSand · 02-07-2006, 03:07 PM

So, I was feeling a bit down today (tough day at work and all) and decided I'd get a pick-me-up by reading the Maximum Football forums a little bit. (This thread is good for a few yuks on each viewing as well, I admit)

Anyway, I noticed this tidbit over there, and just couldn't help but quite literally laugh out loud:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MF documentation

Those features will be in Maximum-Football 2

Oh, that is fucking RICH! I feel so much better!

Well, anyway, I found another item in the same thread that wrapped up the discussion for me prety well:

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Winter

Maximum-Football is not what you're looking for.

Affirmative, message received, over and out.

Passacaglia · 02-07-2006, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yabanci

those graphics look horrible. They remind me of that old tabletop football game where the field vibrates and the little figures buzz around mindlessly. Look at screenshot #3. Where is that defensive player running to? Someone needs to pause the vibration and reorient him in the right direction. Look at screenshot #5. The running back is taking it in for a score and the two safeties are frozen flatfooted deep in the end zone like statutes. This is going to be a disaster.

I remember wanting that game SOO much for SOO long, then finally getting it, watching the guy spin in circles for a while, and never playing it again. Good times. Way better than the TYCO Hot Lyxx Guitar.

DaddyTorgo · 02-07-2006, 03:24 PM

havn't seen this in this thread yet. classic druez post from the matrix forums.

druez

Quote:

I'm pretty confused here. I know guys like Arlie and Jim create entire games including the engine in a about one or two years of time. I mean we are talking salary cap, drafting, free agents, contracts, full history, records, etc... etc... etc...

I realize that you took four or five years to get the engine right on the money. So we could create our own plays, with our own rules and have steller gameplay.

From what I understand, this was ready to rock and roll at this time last year. The origonal game you promised. But, matrix and your fans convinced to add a career play. Is that correct?

I find it very hard to believe that in year worth of development you have done nothing but add a random player generator, the ability of your players to age once a season? I mean come on...

The reason I'm annoyed is that you are jerking us off. If this is just a hobby to you and you really aren't trying to add features and are only putting 10 hours of programming into this a week or month etc... then be up front with us so we don't waste our time following your product.

I thought this was a serious attempt to make the next great football game, not some kind of mentle masturbation for you to stroke your ego about how great Canadian Football is.

Ben E Lou · 02-07-2006, 03:30 PM

He probably has a point there about them lying about the extra year being merely to add career play, and of course I *love* the Canadian Football comment.

Hurst2112 · 02-07-2006, 03:30 PM

Quote:

The reason I'm annoyed is that you are jerking us off.

hehe...i miss some of his stuff around here.

DaddyTorgo · 02-07-2006, 03:35 PM

i think after reading that MF forum thread I wouldn't pay Winters any of my money even if he was making the absolute best football sim out there. The fact that he basically trashed jim/arlie/gary and belittled their games (when they actually have games on the market as opposed to "WinterValley Software") completely killed even the infitesimal chance that i might support his game.

DaddyTorgo · 02-07-2006, 03:36 PM

druez
Matrix Trooper

Posts: 36
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Druez, you were completely out of line in your comments. Just because this is the internet doesn't mean you are permitted to insult anyone you like. Whether you would have designed a game differently or not, your rude comments are completely unacceptable. I think it's commendable that David replied to you at all. In the future, find better manners that are within our board rules or we will ask you to leave.

To everyone else...

We will be putting together more info to explain the features and benefits of this title and releasing it here through press releases and the M-F game page over the next two weeks.

With that said, career play in a game is a general term and as with many other such terms can be extrapolated based on each person's understanding. We will make sure to make the features clear before M-F is released for sale. In the meantime, please feel free to ask questions, but realize that while this may not be the game each of you would personally design, it has a lot of powerful features and options and can do some things that no other title on the market can do. At the same time, there are things that other titles on the market will do better than M-F. Rather than saying "it's not this" or "it's not that", we just ask you to read and judge it on its own features and merits.

Regards,

- Erik

Thanks for the tip Erik. Just because it is the Internet doesn't mean you have the right to lie to your customers about your product, or jerk us off for the last year. Actually whether it is on the internet or in person, you actually have the right to insult people, especially when you are just calling them on BS.

Hurst2112 · 02-07-2006, 03:39 PM

Throw in the acronym EULA and that looks like something from this board.

MizzouRah · 02-07-2006, 03:49 PM

This thread might be my favorite - EVER.

I agree with Bee, I think this game was going after the FPS crowd.

sabotai · 02-07-2006, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

hehe...i miss some of his stuff around here.

The fact that he keeps using that phrase over and over just makes it oh so funny.

Damn it Jim, you keep dropping hints at your next game and you just won't tell us what you're planning. Just tell us and stop jerking us off!

Solecismic · 02-07-2006, 04:44 PM

I explained exactly what I'm working on right now, sabotai. And I assure you, at no time have my hands ever been near the genital areas of any of my customers.

This Winter guy didn't contact me, as far as I know. I did get a rather odd proposal last year from someone who said he wanted to create a CFL sim, but I didn't turn him down. I just asked for a business plan, figuring he wasn't serious and would go away forever (which he did). The name wasn't Winter, though.

Given the way he worded that long comment, I'm pretty sure I know how these discussions went. He made it clear that he considers this career stuff an afterthought. I'm sure there's just no way one of us could justify the extra work financially.

DaddyTorgo · 02-07-2006, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I explained exactly what I'm working on right now, sabotai. And I assure you, at no time have my hands ever been near the genital areas of any of my customers.

This Winter guy didn't contact me, as far as I know. I did get a rather odd proposal last year from someone who said he wanted to create a CFL sim, but I didn't turn him down. I just asked for a business plan, figuring he wasn't serious and would go away forever (which he did). The name wasn't Winter, though.

Given the way he worded that long comment, I'm pretty sure I know how these discussions went. He made it clear that he considers this career stuff an afterthought. I'm sure there's just no way one of us could justify the extra work financially.

i'm fairly certain sab was being sarcastic Jim.

Oh what...you didn't like my idea for a CFL sim all of a sudden? But there's such a HUGE market for it!!

JeffR · 02-08-2006, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Thanks for the tip Erik. Just because it is the Internet doesn't mean you have the right to lie to your customers about your product, or jerk us off for the last year. Actually whether it is on the internet or in person, you actually have the right to insult people, especially when you are just calling them on BS.

I know Erik, and I have a lot of trouble believing he's been intentionally dishonest about a game's status. I get the feeling that, up until fairly recently, Matrix wasn't getting any more accurate information about the true state of the game's development than the rest of us were.

bryce · 02-08-2006, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

There are two kinds of people in this world...

Those who like Neil Diamond and those who don't....

Oilers9911 · 02-08-2006, 11:01 AM

You know what? Buy it, don't buy it, who gives a shit? Just shut up about it. And who is jerking you off? If you're not satisfied with the progress of the game then don't go to the website, don't read about it, just forget it. Seven pages of posts ranting about this game is ridiculous. For Christ sakes people move the hell on.

rkmsuf · 02-08-2006, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

You know what? Buy it, don't buy it, who gives a shit? Just shut up about it. And who is jerking you off? If you're not satisfied with the progress of the game then don't go to the website, don't read about it, just forget it. Seven pages of posts ranting about this game is ridiculous. For Christ sakes people move the hell on.

this post I like

SirFozzie · 02-08-2006, 11:14 AM

Did someone call the waaahmbulance?

Coder · 02-08-2006, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

You know what? Buy it, don't buy it, who gives a shit? Just shut up about it. And who is jerking you off? If you're not satisfied with the progress of the game then don't go to the website, don't read about it, just forget it. Seven pages of posts ranting about this game is ridiculous. For Christ sakes people move the hell on.

No! We do not have this choice. Lets throw firebombs on the Canadian embassy!

rkmsuf · 02-08-2006, 11:17 AM

Chuck Norris endorses Maximum Football.

Oilers9911 · 02-08-2006, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coder

No! We do not have this choice. Lets throw firebombs on the Canadian embassy!

Now none of that, I in no way made fun of Mohammed in my post.

Ben E Lou · 02-08-2006, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

You know what? Buy it, don't buy it, who gives a shit? Just shut up about it. And who is jerking you off? If you're not satisfied with the progress of the game then don't go to the website, don't read about it, just forget it. Seven pages of posts ranting about this game is ridiculous. For Christ sakes people move the hell on.

So says the gentleman from Canada.

Oilers9911 · 02-08-2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyDog

So says the gentleman from Canada.

Yes, and that has what to do with anything?

jbmagic · 02-08-2006, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

You know what? Buy it, don't buy it, who gives a shit? Just shut up about it. And who is jerking you off? If you're not satisfied with the progress of the game then don't go to the website, don't read about it, just forget it. Seven pages of posts ranting about this game is ridiculous. For Christ sakes people move the hell on.

this is not going to help. now you made this thread get a lot longer.

sovereignstar · 02-08-2006, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

You know what? Buy it, don't buy it, who gives a shit? Just shut up about it. And who is jerking you off? If you're not satisfied with the progress of the game then don't go to the website, don't read about it, just forget it. Seven pages of posts ranting about this game is ridiculous. For Christ sakes people move the hell on.

Which guy are you? The one slobbering over the screenshots or the dude that's making all the uniforms?

Oilers9911 · 02-08-2006, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Which guy are you? The one slobbering over the screenshots or the dude that's making all the uniforms?

Neither, I don't give a crap either way about this game and didn't even know about it until I started reading this thread. But watching the hysteria it is causing over here is damned funny.

Crapshoot · 02-08-2006, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

There are two kinds of people in this world...

What kind of computer fails to use "10" instead of two ?

Oilers9911 · 02-08-2006, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbmagic

this is not going to help. now you made this thread get a lot longer.

Damnit! You're right...what have I done?

Wolfpack · 02-08-2006, 12:21 PM

I'd hardly say that there's "hysteria" in here, unless you are counting "hysterical laughter" in the total. Ridicule, yes. Tons of that. Hysteria? Eh, no.

Oilers9911 · 02-08-2006, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

I'd hardly say that there's "hysteria" in here, unless you are counting "hysterical laughter" in the total. Ridicule, yes. Tons of that. Hysteria? Eh, no.

Ok perhaps hysteria was the wrong word. Obsession may be better.

JonInMiddleGA · 02-08-2006, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

What kind of computer fails to use "10" instead of two ?

A Maximum computer?

02-07-2006, 02:54 PM	#320
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	Sarcasm. The Other White Meat. __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com

02-07-2006, 03:30 PM	#324
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	He probably has a point there about them lying about the extra year being merely to add career play, and of course I love the Canadian Football comment. __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

02-07-2006, 03:36 PM	#327
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	druez Matrix Trooper Posts: 36 Joined: 1/26/2005 Status: offline quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins Druez, you were completely out of line in your comments. Just because this is the internet doesn't mean you are permitted to insult anyone you like. Whether you would have designed a game differently or not, your rude comments are completely unacceptable. I think it's commendable that David replied to you at all. In the future, find better manners that are within our board rules or we will ask you to leave. To everyone else... We will be putting together more info to explain the features and benefits of this title and releasing it here through press releases and the M-F game page over the next two weeks. With that said, career play in a game is a general term and as with many other such terms can be extrapolated based on each person's understanding. We will make sure to make the features clear before M-F is released for sale. In the meantime, please feel free to ask questions, but realize that while this may not be the game each of you would personally design, it has a lot of powerful features and options and can do some things that no other title on the market can do. At the same time, there are things that other titles on the market will do better than M-F. Rather than saying "it's not this" or "it's not that", we just ask you to read and judge it on its own features and merits. Regards, - Erik Thanks for the tip Erik. Just because it is the Internet doesn't mean you have the right to lie to your customers about your product, or jerk us off for the last year. Actually whether it is on the internet or in person, you actually have the right to insult people, especially when you are just calling them on BS.

02-07-2006, 03:39 PM	#328
Hurst2112 College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Minneapolis	Throw in the acronym EULA and that looks like something from this board. __________________ http://www.myspace.com/longliveanalog

02-08-2006, 11:14 AM	#337
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	Did someone call the waaahmbulance? __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com

02-06-2006, 10:41 PM	#301
SFL Cat College Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: South Florida	BTW any updates on the next Solecismic release? whistling a tune

02-07-2006, 08:24 AM	#303
albionmoonlight Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: North Carolina	One of the things that I find interesting about this discussion is how two groups of people seem to be arguing slightly different points--ships passing in the night and all that. One group seems to be saying that it has no reason to believe that this game will be able to do all that it says that it can do. They point to the fact that there have been multiple missed deadlines by the release team, the fact that reputable text sim developers have indicated that this may be a bit . . . ambitious for a first game, the fact that this is a first generation product, and the fact that the lead programmer does not seem receptive to receiving constructive criticism. They point to all this and say that, based on all the available information, it is very unlikely that this game will come close to doing all that it says that it will be able to do on its feature list with a minimum of bugs. Then there is a group of people who look at the proposed feature list, assume that everything will work perfectly and exactly how they see it in their head, and say that this game will be the best game ever. The second group does not seem to "get" the first group's point, and the first group just does not believe the second group. (There is, of course, a third group--people who have looked at the features that will be in the game and features that won't be in the game and have decided that the game will not meet their gaming needs. But this third group, while large and influential, does not fit into the dynamic I described above. And I think that a lot of them are also part of the first group, anyway.)

02-07-2006, 08:34 AM	#304
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	Can I have the name and addresses of the second group...I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I'm looking to sell. Thanks! B

02-07-2006, 01:07 PM	#308
Bonegavel Awaiting Further Instructions... Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Macungie, PA	Look, when the guys states that there isn't a draft (which is such a huge part of the National Football League) what else has been left out? There is just a pool of free agents to select from at the begining of each season!? I think this guy oversold himself on the idea that being able to create a football league with 27 downs, 439 yard long fields, 88 players on the field at once, and 1,000 teams per league is a good expenditure of code time. Well, it is his game, but it is not going to appeal to anyone that is looking for an NFL sim (like FOF). People that want a graphical football game will play Madden. People that want a career sim will play FOF (for PRO) and BBCF or TCY (for College). What niche is Gluteus Maximum trying to fill or create?

02-07-2006, 01:15 PM	#311
SFL Cat College Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: South Florida	Personally, I think he's going more for the FOF crowd that might want a little more eye-candy than text games traditionally deliver (say what you want about Madden, but I seriously doubt any small-time developer can match EA Sports in the graphics department). Of course, not including options like a college draft for a career league and deep sortable stats (if comments about this are accurate) were probably a very poor design choices on his side and will lose some potential customers who otherwise might have tried out this game.

02-07-2006, 01:19 PM	#313
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	I don't think he's going after the FOF crowd considering how insulting he's been about text sims in general. I truly think he's going after that group of people with fond memories of Front Page Sports Football. Kind of like everyone who always clamors for an X-COM remake with better graphics, he's doing a FPS FB95 remake with better graphics.

02-07-2006, 02:24 PM	#315
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	This was posted by David Winter on his forums: "Yes, I contacted 3 or 4 other groups. None of them was interested mostly because of ownership issues. There were no technical problems with our discussions. It was all doable as far as making it work technically. It came down to ownership. Basically these groups wanted to put Maximum-Footballs graphics system on their game and call it "Their Game - 3D" or somesuch. Where as I was simply looking for a Manager Mode black box to plug into my project. Anyway, that obviously didn't work. Heck I was even willing to work out a deal that would allow our two projects to simply use the same database schema. You'd have to buy two games, but they could talk to each other. Each would give you things the other couldn't and they would work seamlessly together. They didn't like that either. They all pretty much said that because my game was graphical and used 3D game play and it's what would drive the sales, they were concerned their game would be look on as simply an add-on pack. But as far as I know, none of the titles I was looking at is even around anymore. And I know that some of the key developers of those titles have gone onto bigger things." (3 or 4 groups being Jim, Arlie and others) Wondering if how he described it and their reasons for declining are accurate (I highly suspect they are not). It also looks like he was trying to get someone else to do the hard work for him...

02-07-2006, 02:25 PM	#316
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	dola, Even if the game turned out to be something I might like, I probably wouldn't buy now. His attitude towards sports sims and their developers is just flat out condescending.

02-07-2006, 03:35 PM	#326
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	i think after reading that MF forum thread I wouldn't pay Winters any of my money even if he was making the absolute best football sim out there. The fact that he basically trashed jim/arlie/gary and belittled their games (when they actually have games on the market as opposed to "WinterValley Software") completely killed even the infitesimal chance that i might support his game.

02-07-2006, 03:49 PM	#329
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Troy, Mo	This thread might be my favorite - EVER. I agree with Bee, I think this game was going after the FPS crowd.

02-07-2006, 04:44 PM	#331
Solecismic Solecismic Software Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Canton, OH	I explained exactly what I'm working on right now, sabotai. And I assure you, at no time have my hands ever been near the genital areas of any of my customers. This Winter guy didn't contact me, as far as I know. I did get a rather odd proposal last year from someone who said he wanted to create a CFL sim, but I didn't turn him down. I just asked for a business plan, figuring he wasn't serious and would go away forever (which he did). The name wasn't Winter, though. Given the way he worded that long comment, I'm pretty sure I know how these discussions went. He made it clear that he considers this career stuff an afterthought. I'm sure there's just no way one of us could justify the extra work financially.

02-08-2006, 11:01 AM	#335
Oilers9911 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jan 2006	You know what? Buy it, don't buy it, who gives a shit? Just shut up about it. And who is jerking you off? If you're not satisfied with the progress of the game then don't go to the website, don't read about it, just forget it. Seven pages of posts ranting about this game is ridiculous. For Christ sakes people move the hell on.

02-08-2006, 11:17 AM	#339
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	Chuck Norris endorses Maximum Football. __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

02-08-2006, 12:21 PM	#348
Wolfpack Pro Rookie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC	I'd hardly say that there's "hysteria" in here, unless you are counting "hysterical laughter" in the total. Ridicule, yes. Tons of that. Hysteria? Eh, no.

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