The Beginning of the Death of Online Poker in the US

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

In theory, we'll both share in covering their asses when the balloon goes up (for the ones in over their heads).

I'm okay with you not having a problem with that since it's less than you made off them, that makes sense to me & I get it. But it should also make sense that since I didn't make that off them, I'd rather they keep it in their pocket until the government gets around to doing whatever instead of eventually reaching into to mine (however indirectly as I said earlier). I'm very content with the major players swapping money back & forth amongst themselves while not adding any more cash/any more people to lose their asses into the forthcoming pile.

they aren't swapping it. The house takes a cut from every pot called the rake.

[RainMaker]

The most I've ever had at risk is $30,000 in an account. I had a bank account setup in Europe though so I never felt at risk. I was just more concerned about the sportsbook at the time as you just never know when one will go kaputz. But these poker sites are all huge and have their money tied up in parts of the world where this is legal. All this does is make it a bigger pain to get money out, but in no way stops it from happening.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You don't need massive parts of the population to bring in large sums of tax revenues. If even a small percent of the population gambled regularly in the U.S. through an online casino, it would amount to hundreds of millions and potentially billions. Casinos and lottos bring in hundreds of millions for various states.

Difference is, though:

1) Casinos typically have more than just poker going on. Even if they haven't got a full slate of table games, they've got slot machines, and I'd wager that there are far, far more casual (and worse, admittedly) slots players than there are poker players, even online. I'd imagine 'normal slots money dwarfs 'normal' poker money.

2) Lottos advertise huge pots, and you can lose just as easily by pushing 'quik pick' as you can by having a 'system.' There's no psychological entry barrier in terms of difficulty.

Poker is just a different beast than either slot machines (which make up the majority of non-Vegas casinos) or lotteries. Different dynamics altogether, and while I don't doubt it's a profitable venture (or there wouldn't be companies like PokerStars in the first place), I'm skeptical that legalization of online poker would be a tax windfall for the states and federal government.

[k0ruptr]

There was a point around a year and a half ago I had roughly 30k online altogether in various sites. Now tho - just under a hundred bucks.

I just made the decision that I'd rather have my money in my own bank account 2 miles down the road, then on my poker account if the "day" ever did come

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Difference is, though:

1) Casinos typically have more than just poker going on. Even if they haven't got a full slate of table games, they've got slot machines, and I'd wager that there are far, far more casual (and worse, admittedly) slots players than there are poker players, even online. I'd imagine 'normal slots money dwarfs 'normal' poker money.

2) Lottos advertise huge pots, and you can lose just as easily by pushing 'quik pick' as you can by having a 'system.' There's no psychological entry barrier in terms of difficulty.

Poker is just a different beast than either slot machines (which make up the majority of non-Vegas casinos) or lotteries. Different dynamics altogether, and while I don't doubt it's a profitable venture (or there wouldn't be companies like PokerStars in the first place), I'm skeptical that legalization of online poker would be a tax windfall for the states and federal government.

Party Poker did a quarter of a billion dollars in revenue last year. That is one company without much of a presence in the United States at all. Throw in other options like a sportsbook, table games, and bingo and you have a huge business.

I easily think it generates billions in revenues in the U.S. and brings players globally to our country. That accounts for a lot of tax money as well as new jobs that spur up. Gambling is big business and there are reasons why companies are willing to pay hundreds of millions for licensing fees in certain states.

[Lathum]

So a 2+2 poster startd a thread that his Bank of america account was closed, everyone pretty much brushed it off. But now 2 more people have had their Chase accounts frozen. They were former WaMu customers. This is my situation as well so I am a little nervous. Just checked my account and all is good, but still a little nervous.

Now likely the 2 people who posted their accounts were frozen likely had other issues that were red flags, high withdraws, overdrafts, etc.. but still.

link to the 2 +2 thread.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...5/index44.html

the posters message about his Wamu/ Chase account

Originally Posted by Onaflag View Post
Here goes the drama. Like everyone else ITT I log onto my bank account a few minutes ago to find both checking accounts each have a ledger balance, but an available balance of exactly zero.

WAMU was recently taken over by CHASE and instead of having a heart attack I did the rational thing and called the number on the website thinking there may be a snafu and I needed new atm cards or something silly.

I was told that the US Treasury Dept has frozen my accounts with some kind of subpoena order. I was trying to get the exact wording, but my heartrate kept going up. The US Treasury Dept is now in control of my checking accounts and the word subpoena was used two or three times.

I'm your average joe with an average job. Never participated in anything shady my entire life. My e-check cashout from Pokerstars was submitted and approved Sunday May 31st.

What is going on?? This is worse, much worse than the NetTeller boggle and cannot even be compared to the 3 or so recent hiccups with e-checks.

I'm screwed. My rent check will not clear when it hits the bank today. The lady told me to get off of direct deposit with my employer immediately. Those funds, when they hit the bank this coming Friday will be frozen as well.

I am thoroughly disgusted to call myself an American.

Onaflag..........

[RainMaker]

That's pretty scary stuff. Wonder how much they were playing with. I'd imagine if you kept your deposits/withdrawls under $10,000, it shouldn't throw up too many red flags.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That's pretty scary stuff. Wonder how much they were playing with. I'd imagine if you kept your deposits/withdrawls under $10,000, it shouldn't throw up too many red flags.

Agree. I am still on the guy's side but something tells me his $500 withdrawl wasn't frozen by treasury but probably something like $25,000+.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by panerd

Agree. I am still on the guy's side but something tells me his $500 withdrawl wasn't frozen by treasury but probably something like $25,000+.

Without question, that check was over $10,000. They don't consider freezing anything under that. $10K is where they start verifying the source of the revenue to avoid any tax evasion. That's standard operating procedure no matter where the check is coming from.

[RainMaker]

$10k or not, it's still pathetic that this is who the DOJ is going after. Forget the guys who pillaged the country for billions.

[albionmoonlight]

Did this guy not consider that online gambling was, at best, quasi-legal?

I think that it should be totally legal, personally. But it isn't. And if you are keeping the rent money in checking accounts that you are using to put money in and out of quasi-legal gambling parlors . . . well, it's hard for me to get up a big bucket of sympathy for you.

And, the cynic/realist in me wonders whether this guy has paid his taxes every year on all of his gambling income. It's a crime not to do that. As a criminal lawyer I've seen a fair shake of people get busted for not reporting/paying taxes on perfectly legal income.

[albionmoonlight]

RainMaker, I agree that I'd rather the DOJ go after the big fish financial criminals and not the guys playing poker in the evenings. (Again, I think that the guys playing poker in the evenings shouldn't even be considered criminals).

Of course, I've gotten a speeding tickets for going 15 over the limit when other people were driving faster than me. I think it would have been better for the police to have gone after the "real" speeders. But that's not really a defense at the end of the day.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

$10k or not, it's still pathetic that this is who the DOJ is going after. Forget the guys who pillaged the country for billions.

I had the same thing happen when I cashed a check from my father for a loan. It was a check for $15K that was frozen for 10 days for the same reason. I think it might be premature to state that this is strictly a UIGEA issue.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

RainMaker, I agree that I'd rather the DOJ go after the big fish financial criminals and not the guys playing poker in the evenings. (Again, I think that the guys playing poker in the evenings shouldn't even be considered criminals).

Of course, I've gotten a speeding tickets for going 15 over the limit when other people were driving faster than me. I think it would have been better for the police to have gone after the "real" speeders. But that's not really a defense at the end of the day.

But often times a cop pulls you over because he doesn't have anything else going on. I mean if he gets a call on his radio for a bank robbery, he's probably not going to bother pulling you over for going 15 over the speed limit.

To me going after the guys playing poker in their living room is the equivalent of pulling over a guy for going 15 over the speed limit while the town bank is being robbed a couple blocks away.

[Lathum]

OK, just wanted to pop in real quick on my way to class.

The guy who posted about his account went to the bank and discoverd it has zero to do with poker and was identity theft.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Did this guy not consider that online gambling was, at best, quasi-legal?

Personally, I've never considered that. So long as I pay taxes on withdrawals, I don't know why I would.

[MJ4H]

Well that's because it is fully legal except for a couple of states. It is only illegal for banks to do business with online gaming sites.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK, just wanted to pop in real quick on my way to class.

The guy who posted about his account went to the bank and discoverd it has zero to do with poker and was identity theft.

WINNER! Also, major props to the poster for mentioning it since it did correlate with some other shit that was going on, but just stating the facts and not doing anything to freak the fuck out until he learned more, b/c honestly, the fact that it was only him is a big piece of information in the puzzle that has to be ruled out first. Well played.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Well that's because it is fully legal except for a couple of states. It is only illegal for banks to do business with online gaming sites.

I stand corrected, then. I just figured that it was some variation of using the phone lines to gamble across state lines, or whatever that is called. And that people did it anyway because no one actually bothers to prosecute it. In other words, quasi-legal.

But, if it is actually legal to do, then that does change the snark factor on my post above.

[digamma]

The UIGEA uses the defined term "Unlawful Internet Gambling" when describing the restrictions on the financial intermediaries, but craftily, the legislation never states the basis for the "unlawful" part of the definition.

[INDalltheway]

I think I'm in the perfect situation at this time for online poker. All the money on my accounts are from my backer, so if anything does happen I wont be out of anything other than a decent part time job during school.

[digamma]

Poker Stars e-mailed today to say they had returned my cash out to my account and credited me with an extra 10%. They also said I could request my cash out again and it would be issued through a separate check processor.

[MJ4H]

Nice 10%?? Wow.

[Radii]

<3 Stars, very good to hear.

[Lathum]

APNewsBreak: Group says poker winnings are frozen - Yahoo! Finance


Message to Members on SDNY Enforcement - PPA (06/09/09) | Poker Players Alliance

[Radii]

fucking cowboy DA's.

A couple points in that second article that are key:

# The seizure notice and subpoenas appear to allege violations of the Wire Act and the Illegal Gambling Business Act, even by .com sites that are exempt from Wire Act liability and by .net sites that do not accept money.

# These actions are not related to enforcement of the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA.).

# At least 24,000 player accounts have been affected directly or indirectly by the SDNY action. PPA has been in touch with the affected poker Web sites and has been assured that all players have been or will be appropriately reimbursed.




So it seems like we have something worse than "just a processor dying" but a lot less than banks randomly closing individual's accounts and reporting them to chexsystems for playing online poker which is where some of the 2+2 panic was heading for awhile.

Also, because it cannot be stated enough, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE UIGEA. This is continued fucking around with the Wire Act which is still a nice grey area as far my limited understanding goes.

[Lathum]

Two Plus Two Poker Forum - View Single Post - Online poker seizure made front page of Yahoo finance.


post from a FTP rep

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Without question, that check was over $10,000. They don't consider freezing anything under that. $10K is where they start verifying the source of the revenue to avoid any tax evasion. That's standard operating procedure no matter where the check is coming from.

Those are the people who will ruin it for the rest of us. If you're making money playing poker online and not declaring it on your taxes, you're just asking for trouble. That's who they are going to go after. Tax evasion is an easier conviction and is a money maker.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Those are the people who will ruin it for the rest of us. If you're making money playing poker online and not declaring it on your taxes, you're just asking for trouble. That's who they are going to go after. Tax evasion is an easier conviction and is a money maker.

That guy was actually a victim of identity fraud. But I see your point

[kcchief19]

Feds freeze online poker bank accounts - UPI.com

The guy everyone laughed at will be happy now

[Lathum]

just to clarify, this is the processors accounts, not the players accounts.

[Lathum]

Video - FOXBusiness.com


great interview with Alphonse D'amato

[Lathum]

Video - CNBC.com

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Video - CNBC.com

jesus christ that is the most ignorant fuckwad ever.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Radii

jesus christ that is the most ignorant fuckwad ever.

the online poker supporters need more interviews out there with guys like this, it helps our cause

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

To be honest, I think this is a short-sighted move by a few gov't officials that will likely blow up in their face. It's one thing to put a law on the books (UIGEA) that makes playing online poker seem bad, but doesn't have much teeth to actually enforce the law. It's another thing to actually attempt to freeze those funds under a law that stands on shaky ground at best in regards to online poker.

By freezing these funds, they are likely bringing this issue to the forefront, including a probable court challenge that will find that the Wire Act doesn't apply to online poker. IMO, they would have been much better off letting this sleeping dog lie. As it is, they just gave the PPA and online poker players a whole lot of PR opportunities to show just how weak the government's case is in regards to freezing these accounts based on the outdated Wire Act. Short-term, it's a bit rough on people who make a living online. Long-term, it would appear to be a great opportunity to get online poker legalized sooner rather than later.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Video - CNBC.com

I hate these blowhard who spew bullshit like that. Just come out and say "I want to be able to tell people what they can and can't do with their lives". It has nothing about stopping domestic violence or we'd see this shitbag calling for the ban of alcohol.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Okay, before I touch the form linked in the email (which doesn't show up on the paste here): Is this legit or would I be falling for a phishing scheme like a real moron?

I know there's stuff like this going on, I just don't know if that's legit. Hell, I didn't know there was more than maybe $5 in that account, if that much.


... As part of the Distribution Plan, you were given final notice in December of 2007 that you had until January 26, 2008 to withdraw funds from your NETELLER account. You still have 65 USD in your account.

To receive this money, please fill out and submit a request by July 26, 2009 and include your current mailing address. We will begin processing your request and, when approved, you will be mailed a cheque for the full balance.

Please note: if you do not request your funds by July 26, 2009 (at 11:59PM EDT), they will be forfeited.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter. Should you have any questions, please review our US member FAQs or contact us at [email protected].

NEOVIA Financial Plc
(Formerly NETELLER Plc Group)

[Radii]

On the face of it that looks legit. Neteller funds were seized and held for quite some time(6+ months? a year?). When they were unfrozen Neteller sent out notices to all US Account holders that they needed to come get their money off the site and that people from the US were no longer welcome.

There's a link at the primary neteller.com site that seems to contain the same info as your e-mail as well, going to:

Money Transfer & Online Payment | NETELLER – News.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Article about the upcoming legislation. Also some info on the lawsuit against New York that is set for a hearing on August 21st. A win against the government in that case blows the doors wide open.

Greg Raymer, others join forces in fight to legalize online poker - ESPN

[chesapeake]

Many thanks for the article, MBBF. I am meeting with the Poker Player's Alliance in about 10 minutes, and now it will appear that I actually know what I am talking about.

[larrymcg421]

Hmm, I decided to give Full Tilt a try for the first time, and was actually able to deposit by direct credit card payment. I wasn't even able to do that in the days before government intervention.

[Capital]

Was it from one of the major credit card companies?

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Capital

Was it from one of the major credit card companies?

Yep, it was from a Visa debit card.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Yep, it was from a Visa debit card.

Yeah, depositing money isn't a big deal at all. I just use any of my credit or debit cards.

[k0ruptr]

Yep, I still have no problem depositing with a visa on fulltilt either.

[larrymcg421]

Maybe it was just me or it was just Pokerstars and Party Poker, but I had never been able to do a debit card transaction before, and that includes pre-UIGEA days. And this is the same banking account I had back then.

[k0ruptr]

I can't use my debit visa on party or pstars. just fulltilt.

something to do with there restrictions i guess...

[RainMaker]

Well PStars and Party don't allow U.S. customers I believe. They will reject any payments coming from those countries.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Well PStars and Party don't allow U.S. customers I believe. They will reject any payments coming from those countries.

I don't know about Party, but PStars still accepts e-check deposits from me.