The Official NHL Offseason (Cindy-free Zone) thread

[MacroGuru]

Now all I have seen was the video of the fight that led up to the brawl plus the brawl, I am still trying to figure out how Scott can be labeled as a coward. He said something to Kessel, Kessel turned and Scott reached out after him.

Kessel swung his stick at Scott multiple times, connecting WHILE Scott was fighting two other Leafs that had decided they were going to pile onto him.

So...color me confused...

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

Now all I have seen was the video of the fight that led up to the brawl plus the brawl, I am still trying to figure out how Scott can be labeled as a coward. He said something to Kessel, Kessel turned and Scott reached out after him.

Kessel swung his stick at Scott multiple times, connecting WHILE Scott was fighting two other Leafs that had decided they were going to pile onto him.

So...color me confused...

It's the beginning of the process that was cowardly, not what happened during the brawl. When you are Scott, you don't go and pick on Kessel. That's the cowardly act. You go after Colton Orr or one of the other Leaf tough guys. Going after Kessel is cheap.

That in no way justifies what Kessel did after the brawl started, but Scott should never have gone after him in the first place if he is the tough guy he is supposed to be.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by bbor

10 games for Clarkson...it's automatic

This is locked in. Godard got one in 2011 Pens-Isles brawl.

Originally Posted by bbor

Match penalty for Kessel also includes an automatic suspension

Wouldn't be shocked if this is overturned

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

Now all I have seen was the video of the fight that led up to the brawl plus the brawl, I am still trying to figure out how Scott can be labeled as a coward. He said something to Kessel, Kessel turned and Scott reached out after him.

Kessel swung his stick at Scott multiple times, connecting WHILE Scott was fighting two other Leafs that had decided they were going to pile onto him.

So...color me confused...

No dog in this fight. But a guy who probably shouldn't even be in the league going after a star, at all, is cowardice.

I'm not a huge beleiver in "the code", but if Scott can go outside the rules and (as I've read) go after Kessel from the faceoff, Kessel can swing his stick around too. Both are cheap.

Lost in all of this, Ryan Flynn should retire. If Phil the Thrill draws blood, time to give up.

[Suburban Rhythm]

DOLA

All Scott has done is put a target on Vanek, Myers, etc for Orr and McLaren.

[Suburban Rhythm]

TROLA

At least the NHL will make it onto ESPN

[MacroGuru]

Obviously I am not a hockey purist, but when you are last to set your line and you send that line out against Scott and the goon line, what do you expect.

Tropp was blasted by a bigger guy, Sabres were pissed, they sent out the goon line and the leafs sent out the stars. To me, that's a fault of the Leafs....

And if it was turned around, I would be saying the same for the Sabres too...

[Logan]

Sending out Kessel was stupid, no doubt. But there was no excuse for John Scott...who is a complete waste of a body, I still have nightmares of his stint as a Ranger...trying to fight Kessel. Coward, plain and simple.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Logan

Sending out Kessel was stupid, no doubt. But there was no excuse for John Scott...who is a complete waste of a body, I still have nightmares of his stint as a Ranger...trying to fight Kessel. Coward, plain and simple.

This.

While putting your stars in that situation invites problems, nobody is forcing Scott to be a coward.

Upset your teammate just got rocked? Wait for the "offending party" (and in this case, Tropp initiated the original fight with Devane. Don't be angry your teammate got clocked by a guy he shouldn't be going after) to come out of the box.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Wouldn't be shocked if this is overturned

I'm with Macro on this part. The first one was fine when Scott was coming at him could be excused, but then Kessel wound up and swung his stick at a player who was facing away from him and engaged with 2 other players. He needs to get a game or 3 for that, even with the NHL star system.

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

Obviously I am not a hockey purist, but when you are last to set your line and you send that line out against Scott and the goon line, what do you expect.

Fwiw, I don't have a dog in this fight either...

Apparently, Randy Carlyle expected that sending out the Kessel line would defuse the situation. Sending out his goon line would escalate it. He was obviously wrong.

I don't understand Bernier's rationale for going after Miller either. Defending your teammates? Seriously? What was Miller doing to your teammates that put them in such grave danger where you felt the need to skate the length of the ice and fight Miller in his own zone?

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I'm with Macro on this part. The first one was fine when Scott was coming at him could be excused, but then Kessel wound up and swung his stick at a player who was facing away from him and engaged with 2 other players. He needs to get a game or 3 for that, even with the NHL star system.

I'm of the thinking that, if you feel having a player swing a stick at a player multiple times is bad and a black mark against the sport, you should feel as much, or more, anger towards a guy whose sole purpose is punching other players, going after an opponent for the sole purpose of punching him. One or three games isn't going to deter Phil Kessel or the next star faced with the same issue from swinging his stick to defend himself.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

I'm of the thinking that, if you feel having a player swing a stick at a player multiple times is bad and a black mark against the sport, you should feel as much, or more, anger towards a guy whose sole purpose is punching other players, going after an opponent for the sole purpose of punching him. One or three games isn't going to deter Phil Kessel or the next star faced with the same issue from swinging his stick to defend himself.

Wasn't Kessel swinging his stick at Scott while Scott's back was turned and taking on other players? Sorry, I don't see Kessler attacking Scott with what amounts to a weapon as being remotely comparable to Scott doing his goon thing (fighting face to face with fists).

One is part of the game (regardless of how you feel about fighting in general). The other is punishable by jail time (and doing similar things ended McSorley's career, and derailed Bertuzzi's).

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Wasn't Kessel swinging his stick at Scott while Scott's back was turned and taking on other players? Sorry, I don't see Kessler attacking Scott with what amounts to a weapon as being remotely comparable to Scott doing his goon thing (fighting face to face with fists).

One is part of the game (regardless of how you feel about fighting in general). The other is punishable by jail time (and doing similar things ended McSorley's career, and derailed Bertuzzi's).

Bingo, and it was at the Achilles and lower leg...

[Logan]

My issue with Scott doesn't mean I don't think Kessel should get the book thrown at him, FWIW. You don't start chopping with your stick, ever. He could have just as easily cracked someone in the head with that second swing in the unlikely event a guy fell down to the ice in the skirmish.

[johnnyshaka]

Or like Kassian did to Gagner's jaw and teeth by swinging his stick carelessly about...what a dumb dumb head.

Here's my take on the Leafs/Sabres stuff...I'm of the opinion that Carlyle did the right thing and tried to be the "bigger man" by not sending out his goon squad. We're not talking about the final week of the season and fighting for a playoff spot or something...this is pre-fucking-season hockey. Sure, it ended up being exactly what the Sabres wanted but I doubt the score will be settled in Carlyle's eyes, so the Sabres' stars should expect some retribution sometime soon.

[Logan]

Scott's side of the story:

The 6-foot-8 Scott knew he had to respond and said he would’ve went after anyone who lined up beside him, so he told Kessel, who’s about eight inches shorter and 60 pounds lighter, “Phil, we’re going to have to go here, just to let you know.”

How did Kessel respond? “I think he said, ‘All right, let’s do it,’” Scott said.

Uhhh sure he did.

[Suburban Rhythm]

In other news about pointless players in the NHL, Edmonton claims Stevie Mac off waivers from Pittsburgh. He has no place in the game, because nobody will even fight him.

[bbor]

Hahahah

Ya,right...Kessel said alright let's do this....wow..

Kessel 5 games
Clarkson....10
Bernier...2
Scott...Beer league

There is plenty of wrong to go around on this.

[RendeR]

Frankly is the Leafs don't take cheap shots at the young guys in a fucking pre-season game their precious star players wouldn't be facing suspensions at all.

The hit on tropp was crap to begin with and deserved someone getting their ass hauled to the ice. Kessel just had the bad luck to be the guy at ground zero when Scott did his job as a tone-setter or "enforcer".

I don't like that side of the sport myself, but you can't take the cheap shots and expect no retaliation. Everything beyond kessel and Scott going at it is pretty much the Leafs players trying in vain to cover their own asses.

As for anything "cowardly" happening on either side, If you can't see Kessel's chicken shit tactics as cowardly then you have nothing to add to this conversation.

Cut away all the bullshit and whining and this situation says one thing "don't cheap shot the kids on the other team, its stupid and causes you to get yer ass kicked"

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Frankly is the Leafs don't take cheap shots at the young guys in a fucking pre-season game their precious star players wouldn't be facing suspensions at all.

The hit on tropp was crap to begin with and deserved someone getting their ass hauled to the ice. Kessel just had the bad luck to be the guy at ground zero when Scott did his job as a tone-setter or "enforcer".

I don't like that side of the sport myself, but you can't take the cheap shots and expect no retaliation. Everything beyond kessel and Scott going at it is pretty much the Leafs players trying in vain to cover their own asses.

As for anything "cowardly" happening on either side, If you can't see Kessel's chicken shit tactics as cowardly then you have nothing to add to this conversation.

Cut away all the bullshit and whining and this situation says one thing "don't cheap shot the kids on the other team, its stupid and causes you to get yer ass kicked"

So, you think that Devane, in a fight that started mutually or perhaps even initiated by Tropp, purposefully drove Tropp's head into the ice when they fell during the fight?

It's possible he did, but it's also possible it was just a bad fall during a fight that just started. It's not like Devane jumped him or anything.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Wasn't Kessel swinging his stick at Scott while Scott's back was turned and taking on other players? Sorry, I don't see Kessler attacking Scott with what amounts to a weapon as being remotely comparable to Scott doing his goon thing (fighting face to face with fists).

Yup. That's why I clearly delineated between slashing as you back away and try to avoid a fight and circling back and targeting a player's ankle when they aren't looking. (And then coming up and spearing him an additional time when he's in the linesman's grasp, although that one was so weak maybe we should give Kessel a pass for it.) I'd have the same problem if Kessel had rabbit-punched Scott at that time.

[JPhillips]

The Lucic - Rechlicz fight last night featured a ton of landed shots.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The Lucic - Rechlicz fight last night featured a ton of landed shots.

Yes and, in typical Jack Edwards fashion, some very colorful commentary:

“He’s being reckless with his face!”

“He’s just assaulting his knuckles with his nose!”

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

So, you think that Devane, in a fight that started mutually or perhaps even initiated by Tropp, purposefully drove Tropp's head into the ice when they fell during the fight?

It's possible he did, but it's also possible it was just a bad fall during a fight that just started. It's not like Devane jumped him or anything.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Yup. That's why I clearly delineated between slashing as you back away and try to avoid a fight and circling back and targeting a player's ankle when they aren't looking. (And then coming up and spearing him an additional time when he's in the linesman's grasp, although that one was so weak maybe we should give Kessel a pass for it.) I'd have the same problem if Kessel had rabbit-punched Scott at that time.

Yeah, I have no problem with what Kessel did initially. If a giant 6'7", 250 lbs. man dropped his gloves and started to come at me menacingly I would back away and hit him with a stick. That was fine.

It's when Kessel circled around and slashed his ankles again after he was tied up and then went to spear him that it went beyond simply "self defense."

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Yes and, in typical Jack Edwards fashion, some very colorful commentary:

“He’s being reckless with his face!”

“He’s just assaulting his knuckles with his nose!”

If Jack could only call, say, Phoenix-Minnesota games, he'd be fantastic. But as soon as he's emotionally invested in the game, he goes bonkers.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Yes and, in typical Jack Edwards fashion, some very colorful commentary:

“He’s being reckless with his face!”

“He’s just assaulting his knuckles with his nose!”

I thought it was a hell of a draw. That might be the highlight of Rechlicz's career.

[Honolulu_Blue]

This is the best thing to come out of the whole Leafs/Sabres deal by far:

Down Goes Brown: Phil Kessel's suspension hearing: The top secret transcript

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

It's the beginning of the process that was cowardly, not what happened during the brawl. When you are Scott, you don't go and pick on Kessel. That's the cowardly act. You go after Colton Orr or one of the other Leaf tough guys. Going after Kessel is cheap.

That in no way justifies what Kessel did after the brawl started, but Scott should never have gone after him in the first place if he is the tough guy he is supposed to be.

I don't get this logic. What does it mean to not "pick on" Kessel, or any player? Isn't that the purpose of a big and agitator guy? It's one thing to be cheap and physically go after a player, but to take crap and maybe try to stir things up, that's always been part of hockey.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I don't get this logic. What does it mean to not "pick on" Kessel, or any player? Isn't that the purpose of a big and agitator guy? It's one thing to be cheap and physically go after a player, but to take crap and maybe try to stir things up, that's always been part of hockey.

Trying to stir things up has always been a part of hockey. If Scott had hit Kessel with a check - impossible because he'd never be able to skate fast enough to accomplish this - or pushed him around or something, that'd be "trying to stir things up."

As soon as the puck was dropped, Scott dropped his gloves and tried to fight Kessel, to pound him with his bare fists. I have watched a ton of hockey over the last 25+ years (I didn't start watching until I was 13) and having a big goon like that drop the gloves and go after a much smaller, star player isn't and never has been a "part of hockey."

I am not offended by what happened or upset. In fact, I kind of like the idea of Jonathan Scott in the league, but what he did was a total BS move.

[Suburban Rhythm]

This is going to be a vague answer, but it's a "within the context of the game" thing.

Like HB is saying, a check within game play, a face wash in a scrum in the crease as the whistle blows. All acceptable.

There are unfortunate things that happen during game play that, IMO, still fall within gameplay - most recent examples, Chara on MaxPac. Steckel on Crosby.

Then there are those things occurring that do not resemble playing the game, other than they occur on ice. Bertuzzi on Moore. McSorley on Brashear.

Plenty of Sabres fan were upset when Lucic blew up Miller last year, and rightfully so. To me that falls in category II above.

I'm not lumping this incident into the last category, but it's a lot closer to that than the first two.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I am not offended by what happened or upset. In fact, I kind of like the idea of Jonathan Scott in the league, but what he did was a total BS move.

I'm just confused what it is he did that was a BS move? Talking crap to a precious player?

[Galaxy]

Oh, so:

Kessel suspended for the rest of the pre-season, but no pre-season games (a joke.).

Clarkson gets 10 games.

Ron Rolston gets a fine. (Which I don't get, because Toronto was the home team, and they are the ones that select their line last.)

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

This is going to be a vague answer, but it's a "within the context of the game" thing.

Like HB is saying, a check within game play, a face wash in a scrum in the crease as the whistle blows. All acceptable.

There are unfortunate things that happen during game play that, IMO, still fall within gameplay - most recent examples, Chara on MaxPac. Steckel on Crosby.

Then there are those things occurring that do not resemble playing the game, other than they occur on ice. Bertuzzi on Moore. McSorley on Brashear.

Plenty of Sabres fan were upset when Lucic blew up Miller last year, and rightfully so. To me that falls in category II above.

I'm not lumping this incident into the last category, but it's a lot closer to that than the first two.

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

I'm of the thinking that, if you feel having a player swing a stick at a player multiple times is bad and a black mark against the sport, you should feel as much, or more, anger towards a guy whose sole purpose is punching other players, going after an opponent for the sole purpose of punching him.

I guess I'm curious if you were trying to argue Devil's Advocate earlier, because I just have a hard time squaring these two statements.

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I'm just confused what it is he did that was a BS move? Talking crap to a precious player?

It's part of the code that if you want to go off the faceoff, you tell the other player that, they say OK, and you both drop gloves after the puck drops. If that other player says no, you don't drop the gloves and engage them (with an exception if that player is the one who made the dirty hit, in which case you are allowed to). So people are calling Scott out for the BS move of going after Kessel when Kessel "obviously" said no. (I'm putting obviously in quotes because given what I know of Kessel it totally wouldn't surprise me if he said yes with no intention of following through and fighting him.)

[bhlloy]

Yeah the Rolston fine is bizarre and just another example of NHL hypocrisy. If you allow guys like Scott in the league, which they do because a large part of their fan base still likes fighting, how can you fine Rolston for putting him out there in that situation?

Kessel suspension is a cop out as well, but the fine is everything that is wrong with the league

[Suburban Rhythm]

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I guess I'm curious if you were trying to argue Devil's Advocate earlier, because I just have a hard time squaring these two statements.

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

It's part of the code that if you want to go off the faceoff, you tell the other player that, they say OK, and you both drop gloves after the puck drops. If that other player says no, you don't drop the gloves and engage them (with an exception if that player is the one who made the dirty hit, in which case you are allowed to). So people are calling Scott out for the BS move of going after Kessel when Kessel "obviously" said no. (I'm putting obviously in quotes because given what I know of Kessel it totally wouldn't surprise me if he said yes with no intention of following through and fighting him.)

Didn't see this until now.

I guess I'm saying, much like the bolded in your response, swinging his stick in retaliation is different than swinging his stick McSorley style.

Also, re-reading my two responses, the initial

I'm not lumping this incident into the last category, but it's a lot closer to that than the first two.

was about Scott, not Kessel (eventhough I'm comparing to another stick swinging incident). Scott going after Kessel from the faceoff isn't quite a Bertuzzi level attack, but it wasn't necessarily part of normal gameplay either.

[britrock88]

Nothing about Tim Thomas signing with the Panthers? Really?

[SackAttack]

He's just chasing a Stanley Cup, britrock. What's wrong with that?

/delusion

[bhlloy]

McIndoe - you bastard. You sick, sick bastard

[MizzouRah]

What a great time of the year!

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

What a great time of the year!

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

McIndoe - you bastard. You sick, sick bastard

For the Teemu farewell tour?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

McIndoe - you bastard. You sick, sick bastard

That was hilarious.

[Chief Rum]

And Sean is right on, too--what the hell, NHL? Only visit to Winnipeg is in October?

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

This is awesome.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

This is awesome.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

And Sean is right on, too--what the hell, NHL? Only visit to Winnipeg is in October?

And I will be in the house!

[MizzouRah]

Change the thread title.. it's the season baby!

Blues win 7-0!

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Change the thread title.. it's the season baby!

Blues win 7-0!

Go the Regular Season thread, baby!

The Official 13-14 NHL Regular season thread - Front Office Football Central