Soccer Thread 2023-24 Edition

[MIJB#19]

Dutch soccer analysts are skeptic about Erik ten Hag's recent transfer spree and the rumors going around. Bringing on Ruud van Nistelrooij is considered a logic move, but Ten Hag looks too focused on bringing in anything that's remotely Dutch. Louis van Gaal tried it at FC Barcelona about 25 years ago and eventually got backlash for it.

[sovereignstar v2]

I think United could win Europa League. They have a very astute manager. They signed the backup to Wout Weghorst and now Jonny Evans is back in the fold. Corner turned?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by cartman

When you have world class players, that makes up for a lot of tactical deficiencies. Of those you listed, de la Fuente's Spanish team is probably the least star studded Spanish side in a while, but still full of skill.

So you are telling me we need a tactician to mask the lack of world class players. Fine. Then get a guy who fits that. Is that Klopp? I don’t think it is disrespectful to say tactics are not why you hire Jurgen Klopp now. Especially when he might have 60-65 practice days total between now and the start of the 2026 World Cup with the squad?

If it’s the lack of world class players, well other than Jon, most of us weren’t saying that a month ago. US Soccer was not saying that a month ago. If that assessment is now the correct assessment, why the hell were we getting our hopes up about the Copa or even the 2026 World Cup? We should be thankful to make it out of the group even then if that’s the case.

Here is where I am at with USMNT. I think the players overall are more skilled than in the past. I think in the right system, the USMNT can consistently qualify for and make the knockout rounds of a Copa or the World Cup. But we seem to want to pick between having only skilled players who play like the non American folks do and can claim to be our so called versions of Messi, Ronaldo, and Mbappe or having only unskilled try hards who play with good ole fashioned American grit and need to play strictly route one systems. I don’t think it is an either/or situation or even that those are the proper choices.

On to coaching. Under Berhalter, USMNT won the Nations League multiple times and the Gold Cup. He is one of four USMNT head coaches to get the team beyond the group stage of the World Cup since 1950. He is not on Jurgen Klopp ‘s level as a manager IMO. He was a good USMNT head coach. I won’t deny that he has taken the team as far as he could. He needed to go. But he needed to go after the last World Cup along with the Earnie Stewarts and the Brian McBrides within US Soccer. Not just for the Reyna silliness after the World Cup but because it was time to move US Men’s Soccer beyond the old US Men’s Soccer alumni network. This is why my issues with USMNT goes way beyond the senior squad or the manager/head coach.

Where is our Clairefontaine? Our St George’s Park? Where is our national soccer center that is teaching our coaches, players and supporters whatever the U.S. soccer DNA is so we are not jumping from Berhalter to a Klopp, Tuchel, Tab Ramos, Jim Curtin, Steve Cherundolo. Spain ain’t hiring Jose Mourinho no matter how successful Mourinho is.

Have we completely abandoned the college game as a road to the national
teams? This was supposed to be one of our unique American options.

Is MLS still a real option for developing players for the national team or are we only pulling players from European academies, clubs and leagues nowadays? MLS sent two defenders and a goalkeeper to the senior team Copa roster.

Has there been a US U17 player that moved on to the senior team in the last four years? Is there anyone in the senior team heading over to play on the U23 Olympic team either to lend a bit of experience or to gain some more tournament experience?

Speaking of the youth teams, do the national youth teams have anything to do with the senior team at all and if so is that coming from US Soccer or from the senior head coach/manager in charge at the time?

These are some of the questions that I assumed were answered or were being answered when the new sporting director came in last August. That last set of questions seem even more important now that we fired the senior team manager.

[Ghost Econ]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

So you are telling me we need a tactician to mask the lack of world class players. Fine. Then get a guy who fits that. Is that Klopp? I don’t think it is disrespectful to say tactics are not why you hire Jurgen Klopp now. Especially when he might have 60-65 practice days total between now and the start of the 2026 World Cup with the squad?

If it’s the lack of world class players, well other than Jon, most of us weren’t saying that a month ago. US Soccer was not saying that a month ago. If that assessment is now the correct assessment, why the hell were we getting our hopes up about the Copa or even the 2026 World Cup? We should be thankful to make it out of the group even then if that’s the case.

Here is where I am at with USMNT. I think the players overall are more skilled than in the past. I think in the right system, the USMNT can consistently qualify for and make the knockout rounds of a Copa or the World Cup. But we seem to want to pick between having only skilled players who play like the non American folks do and can claim to be our so called versions of Messi, Ronaldo, and Mbappe or having only unskilled try hards who play with good ole fashioned American grit and need to play strictly route one systems. I don’t think it is an either/or situation or even that those are the proper choices.

On to coaching. Under Berhalter, USMNT won the Nations League multiple times and the Gold Cup. He is one of four USMNT head coaches to get the team beyond the group stage of the World Cup since 1950. He is not on Jurgen Klopp ‘s level as a manager IMO. He was a good USMNT head coach. I won’t deny that he has taken the team as far as he could. He needed to go. But he needed to go after the last World Cup along with the Earnie Stewarts and the Brian McBrides within US Soccer. Not just for the Reyna silliness after the World Cup but because it was time to move US Men’s Soccer beyond the old US Men’s Soccer alumni network. This is why my issues with USMNT goes way beyond the senior squad or the manager/head coach.

Where is our Clairefontaine? Our St George’s Park? Where is our national soccer center that is teaching our coaches, players and supporters whatever the U.S. soccer DNA is so we are not jumping from Berhalter to a Klopp, Tuchel, Tab Ramos, Jim Curtin, Steve Cherundolo. Spain ain’t hiring Jose Mourinho no matter how successful Mourinho is.

Have we completely abandoned the college game as a road to the national
teams? This was supposed to be one of our unique American options.

Is MLS still a real option for developing players for the national team or are we only pulling players from European academies, clubs and leagues nowadays? MLS sent two defenders and a goalkeeper to the senior team Copa roster.

Has there been a US U17 player that moved on to the senior team in the last four years? Is there anyone in the senior team heading over to play on the U23 Olympic team either to lend a bit of experience or to gain some more tournament experience?

Speaking of the youth teams, do the national youth teams have anything to do with the senior team at all and if so is that coming from US Soccer or from the senior head coach/manager in charge at the time?

These are some of the questions that I assumed were answered or were being answered when the new sporting director came in last August. That last set of questions seem even more important now that we fired the senior team manager.

For Under 17 players, Pepi, Reyna and Scally all played in the 2019 u-17 World Cup, all but Pepi made the Senior World Cup squad (and Pepi maybe should have), and all 3 played in this year's Copa. And all 3 are US academy graduates. 17 of the 18 players on the Olympic team came though MLS academies. The players on the Copa team aren't getting released for the Olympics by their clubs because it's not a tournament that matters. If anything, the US system is too focused on MLS academies that don't cover nearly enough area to cultivate talent throughout the country.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

I think United could win Europa League. They have a very astute manager. They signed the backup to Wout Weghorst and now Jonny Evans is back in the fold. Corner turned?

Still salty over that FA Cup dismantling by a clearly inferior team?

[flere-imsaho]

@miami_fan: those are all good questions, but fundamentally US Soccer is an nepotistic & amateurish organization that functions primarily as a make-work scheme for a bunch of former national team members and some interconnected families. Soccer at the youth level now is completely pay-to-play, and US Soccer isn't going to change that any time because of what they see of all that $$$$.

The WNT had all that success due to a massive first mover advantage for decades, and US Soccer has now completely squandered that.

I'd love to be a fan, given that I'm an American, but there's no point to getting your hopes up for success with such an amateur-run organization (cue sovereignstar's joke -- he's not wrong -- about Man Utd here).

If someone can even break the stranglehold a bunch of interconnected idiots have on the organization and start to move forward with an actual plan, then maybe I'll care, but not now.

[Ghost Econ]

England knows they're allowed to have more than player in the final third at the same time?

[AlexB]

Best team won. Possibly more importantly the bravest team won.

Who knows whether we would have won with a different manager, but you would have thought he could figure out that all through the tournament we looked best when we had to attack because we were losing, and when we sat back (either at the start of games, or after we equalised today and in the second half against the Dutch) we were rubbish….

So maybe be a bit more positive to start with?

But congrats to Spain, thoroughly deserved.

[Ghost Econ]

Is this a soccer game or a Trump rally

Fans are still sneaking into the stadium even with the game about to start. #CopaAmerica pic.twitter.com/L7i0Vf9wam

— Favian Renkel (@FavianRenkel) July 15, 2024

[flere-imsaho]

Coming into the tournament, England's two best players were Harry Kane (44 goals in 45 appearances across all competitions for Bayern Munich, including 8 goals in 12 appearances in European competition) and Jude Bellingham (La Liga player of the season, UCL winner). Unfortunately, they couldn't play together, leading to mainly stilted and stagnant attacking when they were on the pitch together.

Bellingham just spent the year in a system with 2 inside forwards attacking from the wing and a false 9 (often him) feeding into that space. Whether playing as that false 9, or in one of the more advanced positions, Bellingham was used to seeing space, movement, and chaos in front of him, quite different from how Kane was playing (and has played for the past few years).

Kane, instead, spent the year in a system that asked him to mainly stay central, either leading the line or dropping so as to hold up the ball. While results were somewhat mixed for the team overall, Kane did do well as the "tip of the spear" for Munich. In addition, going back to his Tottenham (and even previous England) games, he's been successful as a penalty area poacher, link-up man for midfielders running past him (e.g. Son), and target of long crosses.

If Southgate wanted to emphasize Kane, he needed to get Foden & Bellingham to run past him regularly, something they don't necessarily do for their clubs. He needed a right-footed winger on the right and a left-footed winger on the left to put in crosses for either a) Kane to attack or b) for Kane to get to the second ball, or he needed fullbacks to regularly overlap the wrong-footed wingers he did have in place.


Of course, some of this was undone due to personnel. Shaw was the only left-footed left fullback and hadn't played a full game since February. Trippier had done well in the past, but couldn't provide the width. And anyway, prioritizing safety, Southgate mainly had the fullbacks stay home instead of overlapping anyway.


Such, of course, is the challenge of international management. You have only the players at your disposal and, as Southgate himself said, "your best players are your best players". It's a certain madness to even consider dropping someone like Kane, and regardless of the likely public disapproval at such a move, you'd always second-guess yourself if you didn't win it all.


Would emphasizing Bellingham have been any better? He was terrific for Madrid this season but Carlo Ancelotti is a certified master at figuring out how to design a system that will work for whichever 11 players he's been given, and so he did for Bellingham when handed him this year (as he will likely do for Mbappe next year and did for Ronaldo a few years ago). Bellingham is excellent, and very talented, but he's also young. A more experienced player might have understood how better to work with Kane, for instance. Is there any real certainty that he would have thrived in a forward trident with Saka & Foden (and are those two duplicating Vincius Jr. & Rodrygo/Joselu from Madrid)?


Much like the Boston Celtics realized a year ago that they had a young head coach who needed seasoned advice on the bench with him and went out and got experienced assistants, so too should the FA (and this is long overdue) bring in some older heads to help advise Southgate on these conundrums going forward (but they probably won't). Southgate is clearly an excellent man manager, and his demonstrated ability and willingness to be tactically flexible is also good, but there's a certain blind spot evident in his ability to recognize how his players are operating in real time in his system and understand how to go about changing it (the often-delayed substitutions -- again, reminiscent of Mazzula's reticence to take timeouts last year when things were snowballing -- as an example). Surely there's someone out there who could help with that.


Having said all that, if you're an England fan, there's still a lot of hope for WC 26. The team is mainly young and now all have a very significant amount of tournament experience. Due to age, it's possible Kane will have, and accept, a reduced role in two years, and in two years Bellingham will be that much more flexible and savvy. Left back remains an issue. If Mainoo evolves into a Carrick-like holding midfielder, then that'll be a big step forward for this side. And all the attacking riches are rounding into their primes, or are already there.

[miami_fan]

I don't think that Southgate is great manager but I think he gets a bad rap. I think he is still seen as that guy whose penalty was saved in Euro 96, who is just the former Middlesbrough manager who got fired while in the Champiosnship and isn't enough of a big name for such a job.

The thing that is most confusing to me is Southgate makes decisions that from the outside looking in seem almost identical to the commentary I hear from almost all English coaches and pundits sans Glenn Hoddle talk as being the correct decisions in those situations when they crush other managers for doing the opposite. To put it another way, he makes the decision I would expect an English manager would make. If the strengths of your team are in attack and your weakness in defense, the coach's first responsibility is to protect the defense. Don't try to outscore the opponents Ange Postecoglou, fix the leaky defense! That is what you are supposed to do if you want to win. Another one concerns what you are supposed to do after your team scores. The team that has just scored is at its most vulnerable immediately after so they need to focus defensively and not to recklessly chase goals especially when you've just tied the match. These are almost universal truths and any coach with a philosophy that does not adhere to these truths are slaughtered from the EPL to the depths of the pyramid. Now Southgate is supposed to do the opposite in the Euros and the final at that? Why would the England manager do something that seems to be the complete opposite of a English manager would do whether at the club or international level?

Southgate should be replaced now. Eight years and two major tournament cycles is enough IMO. I feel the same way for Didier Deschamps who has gone even longer with France. But for English supporters, who is the English manager that will play this attacking brand of football that England has not played since... well whenever last played like that and buck those truths. Graham Potter? Eddie Howe? Or do they go with someone else in the England setup like Lee Carsley who to be fair has won a Euros with the U21s?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ

Is this a soccer game or a Trump rally

It's tough to tell who's at fault since there is a lot of blame going around. But I did see some people say that CONMEBOL wanted a bigger share of the profits as opposed to 2016 and so took more control. They basically cheaped out on security and other measures.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's tough to tell who's at fault since there is a lot of blame going around. But I did see some people say that CONMEBOL wanted a bigger share of the profits as opposed to 2016 and so took more control. They basically cheaped out on security and other measures.

I heard similar things. I want to know how that would have affected the local authorities though. I have thoughts but I really want to know for sure. The idea that the local authorities and more importantly US Soccer would watch CONMEBOL only pay for a fraction of the security that they know would be needed and not either force to have more security or refuse to hold the event is outrageous. I get it. CONMEBOL is supposed to be responsible for the organization of the event. Unfortunately, as those pictures are beamed all over the world, the location is Miami, Florida USA not CONMEBOL headquarters.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Having said all that, if you're an England fan, there's still a lot of hope for WC 26. The team is mainly young and now all have a very significant amount of tournament experience. Due to age, it's possible Kane will have, and accept, a reduced role in two years, and in two years Bellingham will be that much more flexible and savvy. Left back remains an issue. If Mainoo evolves into a Carrick-like holding midfielder, then that'll be a big step forward for this side. And all the attacking riches are rounding into their primes, or are already there.

You could have posted this after any England tournament of the last 20 years. It’s always the young players who weren’t quite ready but watch out for 2/4 years time! Rinse/repeat… funny how that didn’t seem to be a problem for the team that just won the whole thing with a 16 and 21 year old running the show.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

The idea that the local authorities and more importantly US Soccer would watch CONMEBOL only pay for a fraction of the security that they know would be needed and not either force to have more security or refuse to hold the event is outrageous.

Reuters says "More than 800 law enforcement officers were present at the stadium"

Hard Rock Stadium says the personnel on hand was more than double the typical capacity event at the venue.

Perhaps the reality is that nothing short of mobilizing the National Guard was going to keep a crowd prone to poor behavior from, well, behaving poorly. After all, this isn't exactly the first time ... ask London & Paris for recent examples

As one Colombian writer noted " this type of behavior is common in Latin American countries, but it’s time these people understand that rules do exist outside of our birthplaces."

[miami_fan]

Because many of us have permanent trust issues with these types of statements after the fact, I find myself taking those with a couple pounds of salt. But you are correct. If a crowd decides it is going to behave badly, unless there is a 1:1 law officer to fan ratio, the crowd is going to behave badly.

The opening match of Group H in World Cup 2026 will be in Miami in exactly 700 days.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Because many of us have permanent trust issues with these types of statements after the fact, I find myself taking those with a couple pounds of salt.

Incidentally, the "more than double" comment was made prior to the final (noted in either the Reuters article or another, I honestly don't remember which)

[Critch]

Here's something you dont see every day:

🤯 We have NEVER seen this happen before!

Flamengo were awarded a last minute penalty tonight after the Criciúma player kicks a second ball that was on the pitch at the current match ball the attacker is using.

New rule unlocked. 🔓pic.twitter.com/CnxLlFqA7A

— The Sportsman (@TheSportsman) July 20, 2024

[flere-imsaho]

It's funny, because "foreign objects on the pitch" is something they go over for a good bit in every ref training I've been in, but in reality it happens really, really rarely (including stuff like throwing a shoe at a ball, pulling out the corner flag, etc...).

[sovereignstar v2]

Wow, I see Bordeaux folded. They were a pretty big club in France. Won the domestic double in 2009.

[Ghost Econ]

Canada's men's and women's soccer teams have relied on drones and spying for years, sources say | TSN

Waiting Conner Stallions 30 year plan to manage Canada.

[sovereignstar v2]

what a bunch of hosers, eh?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I have tried to keep up with USWNT and the NWSL after the end of the World Cup. Overall, I can't say I have really been impressed with I have seen. After reading this article and others on the NWSL setup, there may be more dark times ahead if forward looking planning in all of these basic areas has not already begun.

After USWNT's poor World Cup, the NWSL needs big changes - ESPN

Or maybe USWNT just needed a world class head coach?

Two months, ten matches, one tournament win. I'm looking for to seeing how the next 2 1/2 years go.

[cartman]

sounds like Pochettino is going to be the new USMNT coach

[miami_fan]

I think it is a good hire. I think he is a good coach.

I am curious if/how he adjusts his system for players who have not gone through his fitness program and whether he is going to focus more on the younger players in the system.