2017 NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament

[EagleFan]

How was that a flagrant?

[Butter]

Flagrant 1? This is bogus.

[bhlloy]

You just have to call the final with some common sense and sense of the occasion. They have called every single physical or close play by the letter of the law like its an exhibition.

I know I like to complain about refs but this is pathetic

[Arles]

13 fouls in the 1st half and there have been 26 in the 2nd (with 7 min left).

[CrescentMoonie]

Is there nobody there from the NCAA that can get ahold of these refs during a timeout and tell them to stop ruining what was a good game?

[bhlloy]

Lol. Wrong again

[JonInMiddleGA]

I literally left the room & stopped watching.

These officials are going to determine the outcome one way or the other ...
replay is really showing the ineptitude in a blindingly harsh light.

[Arles]

43 fouls and 50 free throws. This game is fannn-tastic!

[HerRealName]

On that jump ball, Meeks clearly had his other hand out of bounds. The team that executed better down the stretch gets the win but what a brutal game.

[Butter]

Meeks's right hand was out of bounds when he was trying to win that jump ball.

[Butter]

Jinx

[Peregrine]

The refs made this game a mess but thank God - I don't think I could have taken a second championship loss in a row. Just not taken it. Exhausted Heels fan here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It ain't quite UConn-Butler ugly, but it's a close relation.

[Butter]

Fucking Fake Class U. continues to go unpunished and win titles. What a joke.

[CrescentMoonie]

Vince McMahon booked this.

[bronconick]

Wonder if North Carolina will cancel "classes" tomorrow.

[Radii]

Yay I guess? I hadn't watched a single basketball game in about 3 years, ended up watching UNC's final three games thinking maybe its time to get back into the sport a bit. Maybe not....

[MrBug708]

Well done, NCAA. A team that should be on multiple years of probation for academic fraud just won your championship.

[jbergey22]

Safe to say neither team brought their A game. Jackson was off and that big clutzy white guy for the Zags killed them. Coming into the game if someone had told me Jackson would be 6-19 and the game would have less than 140 total points I would thought Zags would have won easily.

Parnowski 1-8, 4 turnovers. He has looked out of place the entire tournament. Must be the type of larger player that can bully weaker opponents and look lost against stiff competition.

Both teams shot under 36 percent. WOW!!!

[wustin]

Zaga would of had this if Karnowski didn't blow like 7 shots around the rim. Whatever Roy taught his big men to do on defense, he did a damn good job.

[MizzouRah]

Not much of a shooting game.. I agree the refs were brutal.

Besides Mizzou, I've been an NC fan ever since getting stationed in Camp Lejeune. Although I wouldn't have cared if Gonzaga won, they battled their butts off.

[Brian Swartz]

I don't think the refs were nearly as bad as everyone said. The flagrant was ridiculous among a few other mistakes, but really I think the game was a showcase of neither team executing well. Bad shot selection and decisions in general were on display(for example, all of the 3-point shooters being fouled, and there were a couple more of those that weren't called), and guys like Jackson and Karnowski just plain missing shots among others.

I've never understood the 'refs determining the outcome' argument. I've said this before, but they determine the argument just as much if they swallow the whistle. I thought it was a pretty even game, Collins' third foul was a big one and was nonsense but there were a few missed calls both ways. It's on the players to play a game the way it is being officiated.

[Groundhog]

In Karnowski 's defense, the Zags did a pretty piss poor job of posting him up at times. I thought he had a couple of good deep seals during the game where the Zags player throwing the pass threw it too far away from Karnowski and forced him to take a step or two forward from the spot he had his seal.

Still had a bad game though, sure.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I don't think the refs were nearly as bad as everyone said. The flagrant was ridiculous among a few other mistakes, but really I think the game was a showcase of neither team executing well. Bad shot selection and decisions in general were on display(for example, all of the 3-point shooters being fouled, and there were a couple more of those that weren't called), and guys like Jackson and Karnowski just plain missing shots among others.

I've never understood the 'refs determining the outcome' argument. I've said this before, but they determine the argument just as much if they swallow the whistle. I thought it was a pretty even game, Collins' third foul was a big one and was nonsense but there were a few missed calls both ways. It's on the players to play a game the way it is being officiated.

When the whistles are blown every 7 seconds, it takes away any semblance of game flow which is what impacts execution.

[Brian Swartz]

I don't disagree with you, I just think that's a byproduct of the way the game was being played. Players were regularly fouling people in the act of shooting 3s for example, basically being overzealous. Ditto on most of the rebounding situations. Game turns into a mugging if the referees don't call it. That doesn't help either.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I don't think the refs were nearly as bad as everyone said. The flagrant was ridiculous among a few other mistakes, but really I think the game was a showcase of neither team executing well. Bad shot selection and decisions in general were on display(for example, all of the 3-point shooters being fouled, and there were a couple more of those that weren't called), and guys like Jackson and Karnowski just plain missing shots among others.

I've never understood the 'refs determining the outcome' argument. I've said this before, but they determine the argument just as much if they swallow the whistle. I thought it was a pretty even game, Collins' third foul was a big one and was nonsense but there were a few missed calls both ways. It's on the players to play a game the way it is being officiated.

We get it. Your schtick is to always take the most absurdly contrarian position possible. It's old.

The play in the two halves did not dictate 13 fouls and 31 fouls. The refs taking over the spotlight did.

[Brian Swartz]

My schtick is to call it like I see it actually. I pretty much never do the 'devil's advocate' thing. We completely disagree on the game. I don't see how anyone could watch that and not see how the quality of play declined from fair in the first half to comically bad in the second half(for this level of competition, mind). Main thing going through my mind was that neither team, based on this game alone, deserved to be a national champion. I was watching with my brother who unlike me didn't play basketball in HS and is a marginal sports fan, and he totally agreed with me. But to each their own.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

My schtick is to call it like I see it actually. I pretty much never do the 'devil's advocate' thing. We completely disagree on the game. I don't see how anyone could watch that and not see how the quality of play declined from fair in the first half to comically bad in the second half(for this level of competition, mind). Main thing going through my mind was that neither team, based on this game alone, deserved to be a national champion. I was watching with my brother who unlike me didn't play basketball in HS and is a marginal sports fan, and he totally agreed with me. But to each their own.

And what brought down the quality of play? Laziness/apathy? Do you think these teams somehow forgot how to shoot during the halftime break? Did UNC all of a sudden get nervous being under the spotlight despite being in this exact situation a year ago? Did Gonzaga finally get tired playing the role of underdog after a decade and say, nah, we're done executing?

And a big old "NO SHIT" to the second bolded sentence. That's exactly what everyone is complaining about - no team would look deserving during a game where both teams are in the bonus about six minutes into the half, or whatever the exact time was.

[bhlloy]

Yeah, I can't agree with the concept that the kids just should have adjusted to how the game was being called in the biggest game of their careers and the most important game of the year. Were the coaches supposed to tell them not to play physical and compete just in case the refs decided to call a terrible ticky tack game?

As an analogy you could probably easily call 8 penalties a period in a Stanley Cup game seven but it would completely ruin the spectacle and everything that makes the playoffs great and thankfully to this point that is one of the things the NHL has got right.

And even if you think they got the foul calls right and that's the kind of game you wanted to see in the national championship (which I can't understand but ymmv) they still blew multiple other huge calls and continuously slowed the game down unnecessarily. I don't think travesty is too much of an overstatement to how that game was refereed.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

And what brought down the quality of play? Laziness/apathy? Do you think these teams somehow forgot how to shoot during the halftime break? Did UNC all of a sudden get nervous being under the spotlight despite being in this exact situation a year ago? Did Gonzaga finally get tired playing the role of underdog after a decade and say, nah, we're done executing?

And a big old "NO SHIT" to the second bolded sentence. That's exactly what everyone is complaining about - no team would look deserving during a game where both teams are in the bonus about six minutes into the half, or whatever the exact time was.

I thought both teams looked unusually tired, even for this stage of the tournament.

Did UNC suddenly get nervous? Or were they tight down the stretch Saturday as well, when a 77% free throw shooter missed 3 of 4 in the final two minutes and a 62% shooter missed a pair as well? Or when they went 0-5 from the floor with two turnovers in the final 5:54 of the game?

The officiating was horrible ... but that was not the only thing amiss last night either.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I thought both teams looked unusually tired, even for this stage of the tournament.

Did UNC suddenly get nervous? Or were they tight down the stretch Saturday as well, when a 77% free throw shooter missed 3 of 4 in the final two minutes and a 62% shooter missed a pair as well? Or when they went 0-5 from the floor with two turnovers in the final 5:54 of the game?

The officiating was horrible ... but that was not the only thing amiss last night either.

I would say the officiating, especially the way the game lost all flow, is a big part of why the play was so bad as the game went on.

[Arles]

I don't care if both teams came out for the 2nd half with WWE moves in taking chairs to the back of opposing players, there's no reason for a game to have 13 fouls in the first half and then 30! in the 2nd half. The refs established a flow and expectation for foul calls and then put it on its head early in the 2nd.

Honestly, I can't think of any situation where 30 fouls in a half of college basketball is palatable (esp when you don't have any intentional fouls at the end). There needed to be some central ref monitoring center that called after the first TV timeout when there were already 9 fouls (16 min mark). They should have said "listen, let the kids play a bit - it's getting crazy. We have almost as many fouls in the first 4 minutes that we had in the entire first half."

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Arles

I don't care if both teams came out for the 2nd half with WWE moves in taking chairs to the back of opposing players, there's no reason for a game to have 13 fouls in the first half and then 30! in the 2nd half.

Gotta disagree with you there. If the second half play warrants the additional fouls then so be it.

While both teams were above their season average for fouls (both in the 17-18 per game range) they weren't insanely above it either, given the presumably tougher defensive challenge compared to an entire season.

Collins had 4 or 5 fouls in the E8 and F4 rounds too.
Parnowski had 4 fouls in each of the final three games.
Perkins had 3 fouls last night, below his average for the tournament

Meeks had 4, same as he had vs Oregon
Hicks had 4, same or less than he had in 4 of their last 6 regular/ACC tourney games and he fouled out vs Butler
Berry had 3, same as vs UK, same or less than 2 of their last 3 ACC tourney games
Maye had 3, same vs Oregon, same or less than 2 of their last 3 games before the NCAA

By & large, given the competition, most of this is about what you could reasonably expect.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Arles

I don't care if both teams came out for the 2nd half with WWE moves in taking chairs to the back of opposing players, there's no reason for a game to have 13 fouls in the first half and then 30! in the 2nd half.

Are you saying it's impossible for teams to play like they deserve 13 fouls in the first half and then play like they deserve 30 fouls in the 2nd half?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Are you saying it's impossible for teams to play like they deserve 13 fouls in the first half and then play like they deserve 30 fouls in the 2nd half?

What he is saying is that they called the game in the first half differently than the 2nd half. In the 2nd half they called a lot of questionable loose ball fouls and rebounding fouls that really dont need to be called when both teams pound the boards as hard as UNC and Gonzaga do. It turned into a half court game and changed the gameplans of both teams.

Its one thing to let a shooting fouls go, its a completely different issue to start calling physical rebounding fouls as (like holding in football) it could be called on almost every play.

[Arles]

I'm saying when you've set an expectation for what it and what isn't a foul in the first half, then completely change that at half time - it makes for a crappy game. It's certainly possible that both teams started to foul at triple the rate after halftime - it's not a normal occurrence. Add to the fact that the game was essentially unwatchable and I don't feel like it was the best way to call a game.

I just fail to see how it's ever a good idea to call a foul every 38 seconds in the second half of a championship basketball game. There's no flow, most of the good players (esp bigs) will be benched with fouls and your gameplan goes out the window. I was pulling for UNC (would win a bracket pool) and I felt Gonzaga got completely out of their game by all the foul calls. Their offense is running, passing and getting open 3s. That's almost impossible when nearly every possession has a dead ball.

I also didn't see a big difference between both halves in fouls. There were plenty of smaller fouls they could have called in the first half and didn't. So, when they started calling every ticky-tack thing in the 2nd, taking numerous huddles/reviews (many they ended up blowing) and killing the flow of both teams - it was disappointing.

[wustin]

I'm under the belief that the refs were in it to try and keep it artificially close. Gonzaga just ran out of gas the last minute.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by wustin

I'm under the belief that the refs were in it to try and keep it artificially close. Gonzaga just ran out of gas the last minute.

It certainly wasnt in UNC's best interest to play a half court game against Gonzaga(or anyone for that matter). Took a great effort by Berry and some nice rebounding by UNC to win an atypical game for them.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

What he is saying is that they called the game in the first half differently than the 2nd half. In the 2nd half they called a lot of questionable loose ball fouls and rebounding fouls that really dont need to be called when both teams pound the boards as hard as UNC and Gonzaga do. It turned into a half court game and changed the gameplans of both teams.

Its one thing to let a shooting fouls go, its a completely different issue to start calling physical rebounding fouls as (like holding in football) it could be called on almost every play.

I think you misunderstood the point of my question. In the post I responded to, Arles said...

I don't care if both teams came out for the 2nd half with WWE moves in taking chairs to the back of opposing players, there's no reason for a game to have 13 fouls in the first half and then 30! in the 2nd half.

I completely disagree with that. Now in your follow-ups, both you and Arles are pointing out specific examples of how the refs called the games differently. That's fine. I'm not arguing that. I'm taking issue with the idea that 13 fouls in one half and 30 fouls in the 2nd half automatically means they're calling the game differently.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Arles

I just fail to see how it's ever a good idea to call a foul every 38 seconds in the second half of a championship basketball game. There's no flow, most of the good players (esp bigs) will be benched with fouls and your gameplan goes out the window.

Maybe those "good players" shouldn't commit so many fouls.

Was it ugly? Yep.
Was the officiating bad? Yep, but that's mostly about the calls made in error IMO,not about the quantity.

The ugliness of that game however I put mostly on players that didn't appear to be capable (at least on this night) of avoiding legitimate fouls against a team of at least similar skill.

Again, the foul numbers for a lot of those players indicate to me that this really was on par with what you could reasonably expect.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I completely disagree with that. Now in your follow-ups, both you and Arles are pointing out specific examples of how the refs called the games differently. That's fine. I'm not arguing that. I'm taking issue with the idea that 13 fouls in one half and 30 fouls in the 2nd half automatically means they're calling the game differently.

It's certainly possible, but it looked to me like the refs decided to call things in the 2nd that they let slide in the first. Combine that with how choppy the 2nd half was because of the foul calls, and I think it is disappointing they decided to call the 2nd half in the manner they did. I also think that once you establish what is and isn't a foul in the first half, you should try to stay as consistent as possible in the 2nd half. Telling 19 year old kids that one thing is a foul with 10 minutes left in the 2nd, but a similar act wasn't a foul with 10 min left in the 1st is somewhat confusing. The Ringer wrote a nice story about this. It wasn't just that more fouls were being called, it's that ridiculous fouls (an unnecessary double foul that could have been left uncalled, Collins' 4th and others):

The second half was ugly. Both teams reached the bonus with 13:14 to go in the game, turning every foul into a trip to the free throw line. In one incredible stretch, the refs called seven fouls in 92 seconds — that’s one every 13 seconds. One of the seven fouls in that minute and a half was this call on Zach Collins, on which he … lightly and legally jostled for position?

Game changing call here, what a joke. pic.twitter.com/kcxSfH7bTF

— Matt Smith (@SamENole) April 4, 2017

The holding call example above is a good comparison - but only if an offensive lineman could foul out after 3 holds. Imagine how they would block with two holds - that's what we got in the second half. Some players fouled out and others had to play extremely tentative because of a barrage of early 2nd half fouls (many of which were very similar to things left uncalled in half 1).

[Logan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Again, the foul numbers for a lot of those players indicate to me that this really was on par with what you could reasonably expect.

When you're comparing against a value that can only go as high as 5, pretty much any number can be "reasonably expected".

[wustin]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

It certainly wasnt in UNC's best interest to play a half court game against Gonzaga(or anyone for that matter). Took a great effort by Berry and some nice rebounding by UNC to win an atypical game for them.

Eh pace of play was 75.4 which was very high and right in line for both teams, maybe a little too fast for Gonzaga but it's not that significant imo. It was an uptempo game but a dysfunctional one.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

When you're comparing against a value that can only go as high as 5, pretty much any number can be "reasonably expected".

When guys are getting the same number of fouls they've been getting on a regular basis, that's suggestive of being "reasonable to expect" IMO.

It's not as though guys who've been 0-1 foul guys in recent weeks suddenly starting getting into foul trouble.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

When guys are getting the same number of fouls they've been getting on a regular basis, that's suggestive of being "reasonable to expect" IMO.

It's not as though guys who've been 0-1 foul guys in recent weeks suddenly starting getting into foul trouble.

Or it's indicative of the final being as poorly officiated as the rest of the tournament.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Logan

a big old "NO SHIT" to the second bolded sentence. That's exactly what everyone is complaining about - no team would look deserving during a game where both teams are in the bonus about six minutes into the half, or whatever the exact time was.

I've seen games with a lot of fouls where the teams involved came off a lot better. I get that what's everyone is complaining about: I respectfully disagree.

Originally Posted by Arles

I just fail to see how it's ever a good idea to call a foul every 38 seconds in the second half of a championship basketball game.

I think it's always a good idea to call a foul when a foul is committed. A championship game doesn't matter; a foul should be a foul whether it's the title game or the first game of the year or anywhere in between. Some of the calls, like the one shown above on Collins, were bad calls because they weren't actually fouls. There were a smaller number that appeared to be calls that should have been made but weren't, but most of them really were fouls. 31 in the second half was too many, but the way the game was played there should have been at least 25. Close enough that I can't get that upset about it.

Originally Posted by Arles

I'm saying when you've set an expectation for what it and what isn't a foul in the first half, then completely change that at half time - it makes for a crappy game.

Totally agree with this. Job #1 for officials is consistency, and there was some of that. I just don't think there was a big amount. A small fraction of the second-half calls were phantom ones. I think both teams started to get tight -- there were a lot more bad turnovers and decisions in the second half, poor execution, etc. as well, esp. by Gonzaga.

[jbergey22]

This idiot again!

LaVar Ball Says UCLA Didn't Win Title Because White Players Slowed Game Down | Bleacher Report

Nice job dad! You are going to have your son despised in the NBA despite son not doing a thing wrong. I feel bad for the kid.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Or it's indicative of the final being as poorly officiated as the rest of the tournament.

Then you gotta include the conference tournaments & maybe even the end of the regular season for at least UNCs numbers.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

This idiot again!

LaVar Ball Says UCLA Didn't Win Title Because White Players Slowed Game Down | Bleacher Report

Nice job dad! You are going to have your son despised in the NBA despite son not doing a thing wrong. I feel bad for the kid.

At this point I've concluded that he's either mentally ill or he's just a really bad comic playing a character that isn't a fraction as funny as he thinks it is.

I can't really even get mad at him, much less his kid, I just sorta roll my eyes similar to my response to a lot of other whackadoo reality show celebs.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just for fun ... an article that popped up from 2009. Mainstream media article at that.

Research shows white players lacking on recent Final Four basketball teams - tribunedigital-orlandosentinel

It points out that the last championship team (as of 2009) with three white starters was Duke ... in 1991.

I'm not interested enough to bother looking through rosters & team photos to figure out if there was one between 2010 and 2017, but it certainly does fall under the heading of "kinda rare" true enough.

I don't think it's simply a matter of foot speed as the class clown suggests though