WW LII -- Clue (SOCIALITES WIN)

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

that's hot. therefore all information becomes relevent. so i guess the question then becomes: hey socialites...do you see yourselves as villagers first and socialites second, or socialites first and villagers second?

Is that your way of asking if other socialites would rather win the prize on their own and not share by giving out bogus information?

[DaddyTorgo]

lol. socialite...villager...wait i'm really confused.

so a villager victory we have to get BOTH? or not?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Is that your way of asking if other socialites would rather win the prize on their own and not share by giving out bogus information?

yes. and still being confused by the victory conditions and unique game vocabulary. page 1 seems to say that we need both, and yet pass just said we didn't.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

lol. socialite...villager...wait i'm really confused.

so a villager victory we have to get BOTH? or not?

Individual victory (one or a group of socialites win) - A correct accusation of the murderer, the room and the weapon. Game is over, that socialite (or those socialites) win. If they are wrong, they die due to lynching.

Team victory (all socialites win) - we lynch the murderer and the wolves without anyone getting a correct accusation off.

So basically if anyone other than you gets a correct accusation off, you lose they win.

[DaddyTorgo]

wow...my head is spinning in circles...i need food.

basically: are people going to see an "individual victory" that we reach (since we all contribute and we can all make the same accusation and share the glory), as equally as good as a traditional villager-victory???

i sure hope so. i see no reason why not

[oliegirl]

As a socialite, I plan on doing what needs to be done to ensure a socialite victory, I really am not worried about an individual victory.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

yes. and still being confused by the victory conditions and unique game vocabulary. page 1 seems to say that we need both, and yet pass just said we didn't.

Ok, its like this:

Socialite can do the following:

1) Win as a team with all other socialites if they lynch all the bad guys and no correct accusations are made by anyone.

2) Win as a team with a select few socialites if they make a correct accusation of the murderer before he is lynched. (Anyone is able to join in on the accusation knowing if they are wrong, they die to the lynch).



PASSACAGLIA - new question.. What if a wolf makes a public accusation and other villagers join in.. but its a false accusation. Does the wolf die too, or only the villagers?

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

I haven't played too many WW games, I think this is my 4th or 5th...but something is puzzling me. I noticed that people started casting "No Lynch" votes last night, when the first deadline was still 24 hours away. What is the point of this? In my opinion, that flags them as a wolf...it would make sense that the wolves would want us as villagers/socialites to waste a night of voting and get that "bandwagon" started as soon as possible. I understand the reasoning behing a No Lynch vote, and I may end up voting that way, but to cast that vote so early doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Anyone have any insight into this? Opinions? Ideas???

How is voting for a No Lynch considered as wasting a night of voting?

If anything, Wolves would much better have some random villager lynched on the very first day, than noone at all.

Given that in a 20-person game, there are 3-5 wolves. You have a 3/20 or a 5/20 chance to lynch a wolf. Odds that are not in favor of the villagers.

It's a very big hit or miss, and most likely, a villager (or even worse, someone with a role) might be lynched on the very first day rather than a wolf. If it's a random villager, that's a +1 kill for the wolves that they don't have to worry about. If it's someone with a role, it forces them to out themselves or die. Which basically is also a big + for the wolves.

A No Lynch is almost always the best course of action for the villagers for the first day (unless some stupid wolf slips).

Why would someone vote early? Hmmmm? Maybe to announce his intentions early on? To avoid the hassle of voting for a No Lynch late in the game? You really can't blame someone for just voting early, specially in a game where that person can actually change his vote on the fly. I voted early for the No Lynch. Unless something indicates otherwise, I have no other reason not to. How does that indicate wolf behavior?

[Alan T]

Also Passacaglia, another question

What if someone makes an accusation but then gets lynched before their 12 hour wait period is up?

Do they still win the indivudal victory ending the game even dead, or does their accusation get tossed out at lynch?

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

How is voting for a No Lynch considered as wasting a night of voting?

If anything, Wolves would much better have some random villager lynched on the very first day, than noone at all.

Given that in a 20-person game, there are 3-5 wolves. You have a 3/20 or a 5/20 chance to lynch a wolf. Odds that are not in favor of the villagers.

It's a very big hit or miss, and most likely, a villager (or even worse, someone with a role) might be lynched on the very first day rather than a wolf. If it's a random villager, that's a +1 kill for the wolves that they don't have to worry about. If it's someone with a role, it forces them to out themselves or die. Which basically is also a big + for the wolves.

A No Lynch is almost always the best course of action for the villagers for the first day (unless some stupid wolf slips).

Why would someone vote early? Hmmmm? Maybe to announce his intentions early on? To avoid the hassle of voting for a No Lynch late in the game? You really can't blame someone for just voting early, specially in a game where that person can actually change his vote on the fly. I voted early for the No Lynch. Unless something indicates otherwise, I have no other reason not to. How does that indicate wolf behavior?

If you read thought my original post I pretty much answered everything you asked me. I told you I'm fairly new to the game and my first thought when I see a No Lynch vote that early was that those people MIGHT be wolves hoping to persuade the socialites not to vote on the first night. Yes, the odds are against the socialites, but there is merit to the train of thought that the wolves would not want a vote b/c in ensures their survival and there is NO chance that one of them would get lynched.

I wasn't blaming anyone, I was simply asking a question and opening up discussion...

[Passacaglia]

If a wolf makes a false public accusation, the wolf dies.

If someone makes a correct accusation, but is lynched before 12 hours are up, they still win.

[Telle]

Well perhaps we can all agree that both the "individual victory" and the "villager victory" are a win for the "good guys" and a loss for the "bad guys".. so thus in both cases, are really a win for the village.

Sooo.. how about we all work together to try and make either of those two conditions happen, and not worry about who gets the personal glory of being the one to make a correct accusation?

[DaddyTorgo]

aaaah. the way i see it "select group of socialites" could/should include everyone, as when we get to that point we ought to be fairly certain about the information so i personally see that as a team victory too.

need lunch. dying of hunger (says the 240lb man)

[st.cronin]

Oliegirl, I have a long history of voting as early as possible. Some of my thoughts on that you can read in the voting pet peeves thread. Also I often push for a no-lynch on day 1, for the reasons outlined by others.

[Telle]

And regarding early "no lynch" votes.. the deadline is kind of early in the day, and if nothing else I'm sure there are people who may not be able to get on here during the day before deadline and thus put their votes in the night before.

[RendeR]

*sigh*

Now I see why most people never bother to be the one who takes charge and tries to get things rolling.

5 pages later everyone is rehashing shit I said on page 2 or 3 because they either failed to bother reading it all or just didn't get it when I posted it.

Returning to bored nameless quiet socialite mode. Trying to be proactive is a waste of effort it seems.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Pass: What happens if a wolf makes a correct accusation?

Sorry I missed this. If a wolf makes an accusation, whether correct or incorrect, after 12 hours, the wolf still dies, and only the villagers who "jump on his bandwagon" so to speak, share the victory if it's correct.

[RendeR]

Ok, so now the wolves have an ability to try and take down a number of villagers with one blow, by hoping to get bandwagoners to join in n a false accusation.

[Alan T]

I am beginning to rethink how to play this now.

If I can't trust what anyone else tells me (Wolves/murder lying to me to cover up someone, villagers lying to try to get individual victory), and false accusations lead to death..

I now almost would rather no one share any more clues and we just work on trying to lynch the bad guys. It feels almost like the accusations are a recipe for destruction completly

[Passacaglia]

Here's my vote count. Let me know if I missed something:

NO LYNCH (8) -- st.cronin (98), Alan T (114), Neon_Chaos (117), DaddyTorgo (122), Crim (251), Jonathan Ezarik (263), Swaggs (265), ntndeacon (266)

NOT VOTED (11) -- Barkeep49, Chief Rum, Lathum, LoneStarGirl, oliegirl, path12, RendeR, saldana, Schmidty, SnDvls, Telle

[Crim]

Just on lunch break, checking in...

To the thought that clearing non-murderers puts a target on their back: Huh? Target for whom? The wolves already know who the murderer is, and vice versa, they just cannot communicate back and forth. I say we clear as many names as possible.

What about this: (since I'm still reluctant for us to give out cleared rooms) Everyone shares their person/wepon clue. Then we set up a system whereby we all check behind each other in a systematic way. Person/weapon clues can be checked from any room, so no extra wolf danger (which is the main thing I'm worried about).

Also, let's not let all this clue business blind us too much to the surefire way of winning: kill the hairy bastiches, and the no-good, low-down, dirty murderer. That's Werewolf 101, right? I just think that when we're sharing info, let's not fall into the trap of sharing info unique to this game, which would help the wolves' cause.


Okee, back to work, be back sometime this evening after deadline.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Here's my vote count. Let me know if I missed something:

NO LYNCH (7) -- Alan T (114), Neon_Chaos (117), DaddyTorgo (122), Crim (251), Jonathan Ezarik (263), Swaggs (265), ntndeacon (266)

NOT VOTED (12) -- Barkeep49, Chief Rum, Lathum, LoneStarGirl, oliegirl, path12, RendeR, saldana, Schmidty, SnDvls, st.cronin, Telle

You missed st.cronin voted "no lynch" in post #98.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Telle

You missed st.cronin voted "no lynch" in post #98.

Thanks.

[LoneStarGirl]

no lynch

And I know that Render is not the murderer and the rope was not the murder weapon

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I am beginning to rethink how to play this now.

If I can't trust what anyone else tells me (Wolves/murder lying to me to cover up someone, villagers lying to try to get individual victory), and false accusations lead to death..

I now almost would rather no one share any more clues and we just work on trying to lynch the bad guys. It feels almost like the accusations are a recipe for destruction completly

Remember there is a difference between and ACCUSATION, which could win you the game and a SUGGESTION which you can do nightly to try and find more clues.

Suggestions and the sharing of information should be obvious no brainer plays. The rooms are meaningless since teh wolves have NO clue where anyone might go for a night to gain information. There are 15 good guys, the wolves have to have a name AND a location to nail anyone, so unless they ALL go after the same person and target their room choices properly they have at best a 1/3 chance to succeed on any given attack. if they do coordinate their attacks they can AT BEST kill any one player per night.

So guarenteed success for the badguys == 2 kills per night, which means a much longer game and a far better chance of the village winning.

I'm still utterly bewildered at the refusal to give out clues at this point, there is nothing to be gained by hoarding information. It only delays us in finding the murderer and allows him/her to kill 1 person per night.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

no lynch

And I know that Render is not the murderer and the rope was not the murder weapon

Thank you.

Did you have a third clue or was that all you recieved?

[oliegirl]

I'm casting my vote now:

VOTE NEON CHAOS

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Remember there is a difference between and ACCUSATION, which could win you the game and a SUGGESTION which you can do nightly to try and find more clues.

Suggestions and the sharing of information should be obvious no brainer plays. The rooms are meaningless since teh wolves have NO clue where anyone might go for a night to gain information. There are 15 good guys, the wolves have to have a name AND a location to nail anyone, so unless they ALL go after the same person and target their room choices properly they have at best a 1/3 chance to succeed on any given attack. if they do coordinate their attacks they can AT BEST kill any one player per night.

So guarenteed success for the badguys == 2 kills per night, which means a much longer game and a far better chance of the village winning.

I'm still utterly bewildered at the refusal to give out clues at this point, there is nothing to be gained by hoarding information. It only delays us in finding the murderer and allows him/her to kill 1 person per night.

Well I guess my change of heart is based on what Pass told us and a bit more about the victory conditions.

It only takes one person feeding us wrong information to lose the game in multiple ways.

Say we all work together and narrow down the lists pretty well.. down to two people.. someone gets a clue at night which solves the game for them, and they share that with everyone, but change it around. Now suddenly alot of people die with the wrong accusation and afterwards this guy can make the correct accusation and win the solo victory.

Even if we lynch him for spite, Pass said he still wins if he was right.

Not that I don't trust any of you anyways (This is WW right?) but now there is that much less reason to.. I already shared my information (I was the first one to do so), so its not about that as much as now wondering if its just asking for a new way to lose. (Instead of losing to the Wolves or murderer, we now lose to a villager who wants to win by themselves)

[RendeR]

And if I'm not screwing something up I have us at having 13 of 16 rooms cleared if all those withholding room info would share it:

Chief Rum livingroom

RENDER bathroom

DaddyTorgo lounge

Crim 1 unknown room

path 1 unknown room

Telle kitchen, study, billiard

Jonathan Ezarik 2 unknown rooms

SNDvls 1 unknown room

Lathum 2 unknown rooms

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Well I guess my change of heart is based on what Pass told us and a bit more about the victory conditions.

It only takes one person feeding us wrong information to lose the game in multiple ways.

Say we all work together and narrow down the lists pretty well.. down to two people.. someone gets a clue at night which solves the game for them, and they share that with everyone, but change it around. Now suddenly alot of people die with the wrong accusation and afterwards this guy can make the correct accusation and win the solo victory.

Even if we lynch him for spite, Pass said he still wins if he was right.

Not that I don't trust any of you anyways (This is WW right?) but now there is that much less reason to.. I already shared my information (I was the first one to do so), so its not about that as much as now wondering if its just asking for a new way to lose. (Instead of losing to the Wolves or murderer, we now lose to a villager who wants to win by themselves)

Umm, REALLY simple solution, DON'T BANDWAGON.

if someone makes an accusation, let them run with it, that way ONLY they get lynched for being wrong. if they win, they win and the game enes with a win for the good guys overall.

The ONLY two ways for the bad guys to win is for the 6 named socilaites to die OR the wolves to get into a 1-1 ration.

Lets get past this crap and getthe information moving, the odds are SO heavily in the good guys favor here.

[RendeR]

Alan, I think the simple gist of my opinion on the singular win is, go for it, a win is a win for the village, wether its one guy being the hero or all of us killing the wolves.

Trying to hoarde info just so you can BE that hero, is a rather pathetic grab for fame imo.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Umm, REALLY simple solution, DON'T BANDWAGON.

if someone makes an accusation, let them run with it, that way ONLY they get lynched for being wrong. if they win, they win and the game enes with a win for the good guys overall.

The ONLY two ways for the bad guys to win is for the 6 named socilaites to die OR the wolves to get into a 1-1 ration.

Lets get past this crap and getthe information moving, the odds are SO heavily in the good guys favor here.

Thats how I felt before I asked pass in the thread. Pass said the game ends with the person having an individual victory... the good guys would lose there, we wouldn't win because he was right.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Thats how I felt before I asked pass in the thread. Pass said the game ends with the person having an individual victory... the good guys would lose there, we wouldn't win because he was right.

You apparently missed the part where he said that if a WOLF makes an accusation he dies wether he is right or wrong? No win, just dead.

[RendeR]

And as long as a wolf can't win this way, who cares if there is an individual winner? the game is over and a good player wins? Thats win-win for the village.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Alan, I think the simple gist of my opinion on the singular win is, go for it, a win is a win for the village, wether its one guy being the hero or all of us killing the wolves.

Trying to hoarde info just so you can BE that hero, is a rather pathetic grab for fame imo.

i agree with RendeR. just let one person and one person alone make every accusation. nothing says that we all have to bandwagon with them.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by RendeR

You apparently missed the part where he said that if a WOLF makes an accusation he dies wether he is right or wrong? No win, just dead.

That was a different question I asked. Before that I asked if the game ends when a villager makes a correct accusation. Pass said the game ends with an individual socialite victory.

We can ask him to clarify that for us, but thats the way I read what he said at least.. if another socialite wins, we don't win.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by RendeR

And as long as a wolf can't win this way, who cares if there is an individual winner? the game is over and a good player wins? Thats win-win for the village.

I must really be reading it wrong then.. I read it completely different..


PASSACAGLIA - If a socialite wins with the individual victory, does the rest of the socialites win as well, or do they lose?

[path12]

I would think an individual victory would not include all the socialites.

VOTE NO LYNCH

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I must really be reading it wrong then.. I read it completely different..


PASSACAGLIA - If a socialite wins with the individual victory, does the rest of the socialites win as well, or do they lose?

It's an individual victory. That socialite is the only one that wins. It's not a "minor victory" for the socialites in general or anything -- just a victory for that one person.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I must really be reading it wrong then.. I read it completely different..


PASSACAGLIA - If a socialite wins with the individual victory, does the rest of the socialites win as well, or do they lose?

an individual win is just that Alan, but please tell me why thats a BAD thing? if a good guy wins by himself, is that not simply a good win either way? Or must we win as a village at all costs?

seems rather stupid to think that way.

[RendeR]

My point being, who really cares if all the socialites win or if just one does?

I see it as the whole village wins (we get all the wolves)

Or we have a village hero (makes the correct accusation)

I don't see how either of those is a bad thing? Seriously.

[DaddyTorgo]

mmmhmm. i agree with you RendeR. i could care less if i'm the person that won or not. as long as the wolves and the murderer don't win. it's going to be virtually impossible for one person to win all by themselves i'd think, or at least...very cumbersome to try.

and what would you get for that? bragging rights for some RP-ing game on a text-sim message board on the Internet??? please...if someone's self-esteem is low enough that that will be a significant boost I say we should all step back and let that person have it...they need it a lot more than anyone else.

[RendeR]

persactley

[RendeR]

Now here's another thought.

The murderer wins if the 6 named socialites die.

The village wins if we successfully accuse the murderer.

Why the hell would the wolves leave this guy alive???

The ONLY way they win is a one to one ratio or better and this guy, while he can kill each night, is a serious liability to them winning.

THey KNOW WHO HE IS.

Kill him and lets get on with the real game of werewolf

[RendeR]

Add to the above post that as the wolves kill people each night they could in fact GIVE the win to the murderer.

How can they take that chance?

[Lathum]

Hey everyone. I just dropped Pass a PM and wanted to share with everyone that I need to drop out of the game. Molly's mother has been in and out of the hospital with heart problems and is back in and it looks like some rough times are ahead. She is in one of the best hospitals in the country but we feel it is important to be by her side so we are going back to NJ for a while. We hope our trip osn't necessary and she will make a speedy recovery. We appreciate your prayers and I hope I am back sooner rather then later.

Brian

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Hey everyone. I just dropped Pass a PM and wanted to share with everyone that I need to drop out of the game. Molly's mother has been in and out of the hospital with heart problems and is back in and it looks like some rough times are ahead. She is in one of the best hospitals in the country but we feel it is important to be by her side so we are going back to NJ for a while. We hope our trip osn't necessary and she will make a speedy recovery. We appreciate your prayers and I hope I am back sooner rather then later.

Brian

Hope everything works out OK...sorry to hear about Molly's mom. You guys will be in our thoughts and prayers...

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Hey everyone. I just dropped Pass a PM and wanted to share with everyone that I need to drop out of the game. Molly's mother has been in and out of the hospital with heart problems and is back in and it looks like some rough times are ahead. She is in one of the best hospitals in the country but we feel it is important to be by her side so we are going back to NJ for a while. We hope our trip osn't necessary and she will make a speedy recovery. We appreciate your prayers and I hope I am back sooner rather then later.

Brian

Hope everything is ok Lathum.. You're in my thoughts

[Barkeep49]

Frankly I don't see it as an either or. I see us having the greatest chance of victory if we can get one socialite to piece it together and then have everyone climb aboard that accusation. If the wolves do they die. If socialites do, we win. Seems to me that is the way to go, at least for now.

Also I don't see a compelling reason, mathematically speaking, to wait a day for information to be gathered in this game and so I'm going with my typical "we need to lynch everyday" agenda. I don't have a candidate yet, but I do plan on voting for someone before I leave for a meeting at 2, Central time.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Add to the above post that as the wolves kill people each night they could in fact GIVE the win to the murderer.

How can they take that chance?

Seems to me the wolves and murder help each other as each doing their kills makes it more likely that the other achieves their victory. I don't think the wolves need to worry at this point in the game of accidentally giving the murderer his victory.