The Official NBA 2022-23 Season Thread

[stevew]

Also, DeAndre Jordan still plays?

[miami_fan]

Anybody else think of the Angel Reese/ Caitlin Clark drama when Jimmy Butler taunted Al Horford's timeout from Game 1 during Game 3?

It was not done to the same extent but it did bring about the same sort of chuckle when I saw it.

[Ksyrup]

💀 pic.twitter.com/6MygZyiZSE

— ThatsGoodSports (@BrandonPerna) May 23, 2023

[Atocep]

Holy shit

[Lathum]

Holy shit what an ending to the heat-Celtics game.

[Ksyrup]

Ridiculous. What a gut punch for Miami.

[SirFozzie]

Can I breathe again?

The crazy thing is this is only the 2nd best Celtics last second playoff win. Behind Havlicek stole the ball (Game 7 Finals to win the title) but ahead of "Steal by Bird, underneath to DJ, LAYS IT IN!" (Game Five ECF)

[molson]

TNT actually had "MIA Wins Series 4-2" on its scoreboard for a second.

I have not watched a lot of basketball the last few years. I did just watch the 6 or 7-hour Lakers/Celtics 30 for 30 documentary. These players are a billion times faster than those guys in 80's. What a game.

Butler only got 3 free throws (correctly) because the Celtics made a dumb challenge, but if the Celtics didn't make that dumb challenge, they probably would have gone to overtime, and Butler seemed like he would take over there. Sports is crazy.

[SirFozzie]

The challenge was what got the 0.9 back on the clock. It would have been three free throws anyway because the refs would have reviewed it to see if two or three fts. The time only gets put back on if a team requests a review

[molson]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

but ahead of "Steal by Bird, underneath to DJ, LAYS IT IN!" (Game Five ECF)

Watching the replay, seeing White sprint to the basket and ending up in the perfect spot reminded me of DJ sprinting to the basket to be in the right position to get Bird's pass after the steal.

These are all great athletes obviously, but how fast their brains work is astonishing too. Watching both Bird/DJ and White, my brain couldn't process the whole thing until it was over.

[molson]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

The challenge was what got the 0.9 back on the clock. It would have been three free throws anyway because the refs would have reviewed it to see if two or three fts. The time only gets put back on if a team requests a review

The NBA has incorporated replay and reviews into the league really well. It doesn't slow the game down as much as NFL's system does. Maybe that's because we're used to a million stoppages in the final minutes of an NBA game. But I was impressed how fast they got through everything. And, I don't know all the replay rules, but it's cool that they can also fix things on the fly sometimes - like someone will hit a 3, they're initially credited a 2, but the extra point is just added shortly thereafter without any obvious break in play.

[flere-imsaho]

A while ago I listened to a podcast (maybe Freakonomics) where they went into detail about how the NBA implemented their replay system. It was part of an overall story about how the NBA gradually improved the quality of its referees, and was very data heavy.

Anyway, it was clear that the NBA really thought out replay and how to do it right, much better than the overlong episodes that are the NFL's replay, and the tire fire that is the EPL's VAR.

[albionmoonlight]

In the west, Denver was just too good.

The NBA is going to make sure that a similar undesirable outcome does not happen in the East:

https://twitter.com/balldontlie/stat...Znv52YZTh9J2dg

[Atocep]

Nick Nurse seems like a huge upgrade from Doc Rivers.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

In the west, Denver was just too good.

The NBA is going to make sure that a similar undesirable outcome does not happen in the East:

https://twitter.com/balldontlie/stat...Znv52YZTh9J2dg

This is dumb.

[stevew]

This is better than Boston just getting swept.

[cuervo72]

WTF was with those try-hard white boys at the end there, Celtics??

[cuervo72]

DOWN 20 MINUTE TO GO WE'RE GONNA FULL COURT PRESS YA

[stevew]

Mazzulla prob has his office cleaned out already.

[miami_fan]

The Bob Cousy and the Larry Bird trophies awarded in Boston huh. That seems awkward.

[Kodos]

That was beautiful!

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

In the west, Denver was just too good.

The NBA is going to make sure that a similar undesirable outcome does not happen in the East:

https://twitter.com/balldontlie/stat...Znv52YZTh9J2dg

It's almost as if conspiracy theories are generally absurd and the outcome of games is determined by players, not referees.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

It's almost as if conspiracy theories are generally absurd and the outcome of games is determined by players, not referees.

That's just what they want you to think . . .

[albionmoonlight]

FWIW, the only mainstream conspiracy theory I really believe is that Ken Lay faked his death in prison and got plastic surgery and lived (or is living) out his days on a tropical island resort.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by stevew

Mazzulla prob has his office cleaned out already.

I have criticized Mazzulla myself but in an attempt to be fair to him somebody is going to have to explain to me what the plan was in Boston when they hired him.

I was not familiar with him when they put him in charge when the Eme situation happen. During this series I took a look at his resume. He has been coaching for ten years, coaching in the NBA for now four years and a head coach for three years. Two of those three years as a head coach was at Fairmont State coaching the Fighting Falcons where he made the Division II tournament once and lost in the first round. That and the first half of this year was enough for the Celtics to make him the permanent head coach. A guy with that resume is going to make the mistakes he made throughout the playoffs. Somebody else needs to lost their job if he loses his.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I have criticized Mazzulla myself but in an attempt to be fair to him somebody is going to have to explain to me what the plan was in Boston when they hired him.

I was not familiar with him when they put him in charge when the Eme situation happen. During this series I took a look at his resume. He has been coaching for ten years, coaching in the NBA for now four years and a head coach for three years. Two of those three years as a head coach was at Fairmont State coaching the Fighting Falcons where he made the Division II tournament once and lost in the first round. That and the first half of this year was enough for the Celtics to make him the permanent head coach. A guy with that resume is going to make the mistakes he made throughout the playoffs. Somebody else needs to lost their job if he loses his.

Joe was probably promoted too soon, but Boston panicked when Mark Daigneault (I think it was him) tried to pry him away from Boston this past offseason. He had been seen as a future head coach for a few years and Boston didn't want to lose him. So they declined to let him interview there and when the Udoka shit went down they gave him the job.

Now, I know I'm a Mazzula fan. He's one of the most likeable guys to ever play at WVU so I'm probably biased, but I don't get why you'd fire him. You hired him knowing he's a 34 year old that would have to learn on the job. He won 57 games. took you to game 7 of the ECF, and knocked off the 76ers. That's not bad for a year of growing pains.

Like you say, I don't know how you can blame Joe without blaming the person (I'm assuming Stevens) that decided to go through a year with an inexperienced coach first.

[flere-imsaho]

This is why well-run organizations invest in succession planning.

[miami_fan]

A succession plan for a first year head coach who just led the team to the Finals who has to be suspended because he is messing around with the women in the organization is a bit more that I would expect a team to plan for.

The comparison I would make not in results but in similar setup was the Broncos hiring Nathaniel Hackett. A relatively young first time head coach surrounded by a bunch of young assistants without a grizzled vet to sort of balance things out. I guess the old grizzled vet was supposed to be Damon Stoudamire but he left to become GA Tech. Everyone else on staff are young coaches. I read something that said the entire Celtics coaching staff had a total of 30 years coaching experience on any level and only one other member of staff had ever been a head coach on any level.

Compare that to Spo's first staff back in the 2008-2009 season. Besides future head coach David Fizdale, the Heat also had 17 year former NBA player Bob McAdoo with 13 years experience as a NBA assistant when Spo became HC , Chet Kammerer who was a 27 year head coaching veteran and NAIA coaching Hall of Famer at the same point and Ron Rothstein the first head coach of the Heat and someone who had been coaching in the NBA for 24 years by the time Spo was making his HC debut. Not to mention Pat Riley in the front office. That is a lot of experience to lean on when a young head coach wants to bounce ideas off someone. That is also a lot of experience who can smell when the players might be taking advantage of the rookie HC's inexperience and provide the support that young head coach may need at the beginning. It definitely has to be the right people and not people who are waiting for the young head coach to fuck up and take his job. But I think it is super important to have a guy who really knows what the young HC is going through in that role.

[molson]

I don't see why being the 28th team eliminated, in a game 7, is some massive disaster.

But, I've always been a glass half full kind of sports fan.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't see why being the 28th team eliminated, in a game 7, is some massive disaster.

courtesy of espn dot com

The Celtics' slogan for this year's postseason run -- Unfinished Business -- played off their trip to the 2022 Finals, falling two wins short of a title, and the organization's focus to get one step further.

Combine that with the absolute clueless look that has plagued them for a while now and I understand the narrative.

The bottom line looks pretty clear with them: they do not have the roster makeup to win as constituted. And there's reasonable questions about whether they have the organizational makeup either.

[Brian Swartz]

I don't think it's as much the fact that they lost, as that they lost to a team that it seems evident they should have beaten comfortably. I basically agree with Barkley's take on their offense. Shot selection was absolutely terrible. Not that it's a shame to be out-coached by Spoelstra, things happen in sports, etc. but when it looks like the plan is just to come down and jack up a random three pointer and you're in the conference finals, it's reasonable to expect more than that.

It's completely different if you just lose to a better team, or one where it's a close matchup talent wise, there's a reasonable game plan and you just don't come out on top. Then you just tip your cap and move on with your life.

[molson]

I have fun when my teams are in the playoffs, in the mix, with a shot.

There's so many NBA teams who never get close to that. For decades. But the Celtics are supposed to fire their coach and blow everything up because they lost in the finals last year and lost game 7 in the ECF this year.

Winning it all is hard. The Heat knocked the Bucks out too and the Nuggets have the best player.

When you blow up your team, as all these middling teams do every few years, you hope that you MAYBE have a Finals contender down the road, but you usually you won't, and you have to blow it up again. The 76ers tanked for years, starting about a decade ago now, and still haven't gotten to the conference finals even once, and they might blow it all up again. And that was after rebuild after rebuild after rebuild, resulting in 1 conference finals appearance in the last 4 decades. There's more teams closer to that than not. When your team is in the final four consistently over a period of a few years, that's a rare thing you should appreciate. There are franchises that haven't gotten to even that one time in their history.

The Celtics have been right there, in the conference finals, 3 of the last 4 years, and their stars are 25 and 26. I hope they reload and give their core a few more shots at it, because otherwise, odds are, they don't get back to this level for a decade or two, if they're lucky, just based on the number of teams, and what % of rebuilds actually get you to their current level.

I've had fun following them. It was less fun when they went a decade without winning a playoff series. Which is much closer to the norm of NBA fandom experience than what they're doing now.

[SirFozzie]

yeah. the celtics don't need a tear down, they need to run it back with a more experienced set of assistants helping Joe Mazzula.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

yeah. the celtics don't need a tear down, they need to run it back with a more experienced set of assistants helping Joe Mazzula.

That requires belief that a title can be won with Tatum/Brown as the best player on the team.

I'm not sure why anyone believes that at this point.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by molson

But the Celtics are supposed to fire their coach and blow everything up because they lost in the finals last year and lost game 7 in the ECF this year.

This where I think we part ways. Fire their coach yes. Blow everything up, no. I think a better coach wins the series. I don't understand how it can be any different when the coach openly - this part is to his credit on the honesty side - admits in the middle of the conference finals that he lost the locker room, and that the question became a highly relevant one to ask based on the team's performance. There's a reason why it's silly to ask those questions of Spoelstra with the Heat, or a number of other well-run franchises around the league. If it's just 'so and so had a bad series' or whatever that's one thing. When the team visibly lacks preparedness, a plan, and on a number of occasions effort, that's something else.

I disagree with Jon on Tatum, I think he clearly can be the best player on a championship team. Blowing it up doesn't get you equal value in return.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Joe was probably promoted too soon, but Boston panicked when Mark Daigneault (I think it was him) tried to pry him away from Boston this past offseason. He had been seen as a future head coach for a few years and Boston didn't want to lose him. So they declined to let him interview there and when the Udoka shit went down they gave him the job.

Now, I know I'm a Mazzula fan. He's one of the most likeable guys to ever play at WVU so I'm probably biased, but I don't get why you'd fire him. You hired him knowing he's a 34 year old that would have to learn on the job. He won 57 games. took you to game 7 of the ECF, and knocked off the 76ers. That's not bad for a year of growing pains.

Like you say, I don't know how you can blame Joe without blaming the person (I'm assuming Stevens) that decided to go through a year with an inexperienced coach first.

I don't have as warm of memories of him at WVU as you do (not anything bad either, just nothing too special to me other than being a contributing piece on the Final Four team). One thing that has been surprising to me is that he has seemed to have changed his personality quite a bit and I think it comes off as a little less than genuine when I hear him speak. I remember him being a really aggressive, in-your-face type of guy on the court and seeming fairly anxious (at least when speaking) when off the court. Now, it seems like he is trying to channel some Zen/Phil Jackson-type of persona and it seems off to me. I have seen people online suggest that he might be on the autism spectrum, which I don't think is the case - I think he looks like he is in over his head and knows it and has an appropriate level of anxiety about it.

In any case, I think he can grow into the role and be successful. He was apparently a finalist for the Utah job last offseason, so I think his time was coming, but 3-4 more years of seasoning would have really helped.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I don't think it's as much the fact that they lost, as that they lost to a team that it seems evident they should have beaten comfortably. I basically agree with Barkley's take on their offense. Shot selection was absolutely terrible. Not that it's a shame to be out-coached by Spoelstra, things happen in sports, etc. but when it looks like the plan is just to come down and jack up a random three pointer and you're in the conference finals, it's reasonable to expect more than that.

It's completely different if you just lose to a better team, or one where it's a close matchup talent wise, there's a reasonable game plan and you just don't come out on top. Then you just tip your cap and move on with your life.

Of course Barkley hates this offense. He has the same biases I do against primarily jump shooting teams.

Like it or not, That shot selection is the offensive plan. I am not a fan but everything I read about Mazzulla's offensive philosophy is he wants his teams to shoot 40-50 threes a game. Here is a short article about Mazzulla's emphasis on the three.

Pregame Post-Ups: C’s Own Impressive Record When Shooting High-Volume 3s | NBA.com

The Celtics ended the year averaging 42.6 3PA this year and had a 3 point rate of 48%. For reference, last year's Warriors came in at 39.4 and 45% respectively. The Celtics numbers this year are more in line with the 2017-18 D'Antoni Rockets with MVP Harden who had 42.3 3PA and had a 50.2% 3PAr. Mazzulla did not have a Plan B when the threes stopped falling just like D'Antoni didn't have one back then. That is a problem but not one that would be unforeseen given his philosophy. This team switched from a team with a moderate defensive emphasis under Udoka to one of an extreme offensive emphasis under Mazzula. I have to believe that was done with the blessing of the Brad Stevens and the rest of the organization. It got them to Game 7 of the ECF.

I suspect the goal will be to bring in the 2023 version of 2007-08 Thibs. A defensive mastermind that will take over that side while Mazzulla focuses the offense. I am still not sure that this roster will work with that philosophy in the playoffs though.

[miami_fan]

$78.5 million over six years for Monty Williams?!

Dee-troit Basketball?

[JonInMiddleGA]

So Brad Stevens says Mazzula stays and the article notes that 3 assts are believed bound for Houston to rejoin the previous coach.

So the staff revamp takes care of itself ... but I wonder what the odds of him making it to the end of next season are.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

So Brad Stevens says Mazzula stays and the article notes that 3 assts are believed bound for Houston to rejoin the previous coach.

So the staff revamp takes care of itself ... but I wonder what the odds of him making it to the end of next season are.

Well he has not won the coach of the year in the last year or two so that alone improves his chances of hanging on to the job. The opportunity to build his own staff should help.

I really wish the NBA and basketball in general gave assistant coaches more of a profile as far as what their specialties are, style of play etc. like they do in the NFL with position coaches and coordinator roles. We know Mazzulla is a offensive guy who probably only cares about the offensive side of the game. It would be cool for the public to know of/speculate about the top defensive assistant coaches in the game who would be the best fit for that staff.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Like it or not, That shot selection is the offensive plan. I am not a fan but everything I read about Mazzulla's offensive philosophy is he wants his teams to shoot 40-50 threes a game. Here is a short article about Mazzulla's emphasis on the three.

I don't like the modern game either, but my objection to their shot selection isn't that they take a lot of threes. It's that they take a lot of bad threes. The article doesn't really cover what Mazzulla thinks they should do when they don't find an open three quickly. That's the crux of the issue to my mind, and I think shot selection is a crucial part of a championship team. I also think, though I haven't followed them super-close so take it for what it's worth, that if they were better at it they'd be playing in the finals.

[miami_fan]

Ah well, finishing the season as Eastern Conference champs is not a terrible season.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Ah well, finishing the season as Eastern Conference champs is not a terrible season.

Not with a roster of ... say it with me, altogether now ... undrafted players.

(yes, I'm mocking the media, not the Heat)

[stevew]

After the first 20 drafted players or so, the next 40-80 guys are all going to be situational specific fits.

And sometimes it’s way less than 20.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not with a roster of ... say it with me, altogether now ... undrafted players.

(yes, I'm mocking the media, not the Heat)

I still have not figured out what the play is with that narrative. Sure having seven undrafted players on a team is not a normal way to build a team but it is not like there are seven rounds of drafting every year. It also ignores that in general the Heat don't have the greatest draft record anyways. The Heat can find capable NBA players in many ways and Spo can coach them up. Not exactly a revolutionary concept as far as I can tell. Maybe it is anti big free agent/superteam propaganda?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I still have not figured out what the play is with that narrative. Sure having seven undrafted players on a team is not a normal way to build a team but it is not like there are seven rounds of drafting every year. It also ignores that in general the Heat don't have the greatest draft record anyways. The Heat can find capable NBA players in many ways and Spo can coach them up. Not exactly a revolutionary concept as far as I can tell. Maybe it is anti big free agent/superteam propaganda?

Beats me, kinda, too.

But damn I feel like it's been used to bludgeon people. I mean, it turned into a meme weeks ago.

[stevew]

Deandre Jordan, Ish Smith, Reggie Jackson and Jeff Green all getting their first rings at 33 or older has to be some sort of record I wonder.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That requires belief that a title can be won with Tatum/Brown as the best player on the team.

Well, they just got beat by a team with inferior talent but a superior coach. Trade coaches for this series and the Celtics probably win in 3 when the NBA invokes a previously-unknown mercy rule.

[Ksyrup]

NBA teams hiring and firing the same coaches over and over pic.twitter.com/LHWOjlbFt5

— Hoops (@HoopMixOnly) June 2, 2023

[miami_fan]

Yeah that is the thing. Whenever we say get a better coach, nobody says how we are going to get Spo, Pop, Kerr, Malone, and maybe two other current coaches to run all thirty teams.