Tim Tebow ..

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I'm on board the Tebow wagon after watching only the final five minutes and the post game interview last night. The only reason I tuned in was to see what the fuss was about.

don´t know if those are from that or later statements, but reading them (couldn´t watch anything from the game yet other than the GW TD) i must say they are impressive :

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2...er-to-victory/

On his game-winning touchdown run
“That was the second time in the game [the Jets] had blitzed everybody against us, and they were playing the corners pretty hard off, and we ran a three-vertical (wide receivers) concept against them, and I knew we were in field-goal range, and I didn’t necessarily just want to throw up a jump-ball because they were playing so far off. So when I knew they were blitzing everybody, and I saw [S] (Eric Smith) coming off the left side, and he came and he hugged tight, and I knew he was going to be extra because they were bringing one more guy than we could block, and I knew (the blocker) got a hand on him, and once he came tight, I just figured he wasn’t going to think I was going to try and get outside and escape, so I just believed that the tackle and the tight end were going to get the block, and that I could try to hopefully outrun him to the edge, and thank the Lord I was able to do so.”
“I don’t think (the outside) was supposed to be open. (Smith) was kind of the hugger, and he hugged tight against and stayed tight. So once he’s coming in and planting and trying to stay as tight as he can, thinking I’m going to be in the pocket … once I knew that, I just kind of jab-stepped and stayed outside, and he’s going this way, and I’m going that way. That’s hard for someone to really plant and get outside. I was very thankful he was running really hard and coming hard inside because that’s hard to make that cut, so it made it a lot easier on me getting outside of him.”

also sounds like he really knows his stuff. Yeah, the mechanics propably are bad, but he´s got tons of heart, character and (i think) knowledge of the game.

[Ksyrup]

If Tim Tebow had Vick's arm, he might be Joe Montana, Brett Favre and Gandhi all rolled into one.

[Rizon]

Tebow's accuracy is so bad he can't even throw picks.

This sucking so bad but not turning the ball over thing is kind of entertaining.

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, I was impressed with his off-the-cuff detailed response. He certainly understands the spread option better than any NFL coach, and maybe most college coaches. Now, if they'd just let him run with the ball more, they might score more than 10 points a game.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

If Tim Tebow had Vick's arm, he might be Joe Montana, Brett Favre and Gandhi all rolled into one.

Please stop. You're not helping.

[Ksyrup]

Ha! Look, for the long-term success of the Broncos, I don't want this to work. But I can't say I'm not entertained by it all.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I think Tebow haters are probably glass is half empty type people or just want to hate on someone for their beliefs. I'm not religious at all, but this guy is like Tony Robbins with athletic talent. Who cares about the basis for that charisma? You can tell his teammates love him by the sideline reactions after the game winning drive.

I don't care about his religion at all. What annoys me is the whole "He's 4-1. End of story" talk that precludes any rational analysis of how he has actually played.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I don't care about his religion at all. What annoys me is the whole "He's 4-1. End of story" talk that precludes any rational analysis of how he has actually played.

Thank goodness someone still has some rational thought here. I don't hate Tebow at all, but this "He just wins" crap is way over the top. I will be more inclined to take him seriously as a football player after he proves he can play consistently at the NFL level. Let's see where he is in 5 years.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Thank goodness someone still has some rational thought here. I don't hate Tebow at all, but this "He just wins" crap is way over the top. I will be more inclined to take him seriously as a football player after he proves he can play consistently at the NFL level. Let's see where he is in 5 years.

Yeah everyone, stop talking about any players unless they're 5+ veterans. Meet you all in the HoF thread. There at least there won't be any more disagreements.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Thank goodness someone still has some rational thought here. I don't hate Tebow at all, but this "He just wins" crap is way over the top. I will be more inclined to take him seriously as a football player after he proves he can play consistently at the NFL level. Let's see where he is in 5 years.

In 5 years he wont be a starting NFL QB. I think most people understand this. I get the impression people are having fun with this more than anything else. Most reasonable people realize this wont continue.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

That's what the NFL is missing and why I've become such a college football fan the past decade or so. I like the variety. 32 flavors of vanilla gets boring after a while.

Totally agree. I have been a season ticket holder for the Air Froce Academy football games for 4 years and don't thin k the wisbones/veer etc type running systems are boring at all especially with the spread type offense incorporated. I think this is also a different animal from the Wildcat and may be a some evolution or deevolution in the game. I personally am sick of all the passing and wouldn't mind things swing back a bit to the running game and defense. I think this would obviously be great news for all the very talented QBs and major college programs that are "running" QBs that have nom chance of catching on. The NFL should expand the rosters to 55 and let teams carry 4 QBs and an extra RB so more teams can mess with this.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Yeah everyone, stop talking about any players unless they're 5+ veterans. Meet you all in the HoF thread. There at least there won't be any more disagreements.

Pretty sure that isn't what I said. I just get tired of the Tebow circle-jerk that goes on every time he wins a game or says something to the media. Everything I have seen and heard is that he is a great guy to be around. I am not knocking the guy's character at all here. But 5 or so games into his career and people are already talking about how Tebow is changing the fucking world.

All I am saying is why don't we take a wait and see approach here before annointing him the next great thing?

[MikeVic]

Are people seriously believing the "all he does is win" argument? I just thought it was a tongue-in-cheek thing.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Are people seriously believing the "all he does is win" argument? I just thought it was a tongue-in-cheek thing.

Were you not here for the "Trent Dilfer was better than Tony Romo" debates? People really do still believe this horseshit.

[whomario]

an interesting post on what is impressing me the most as someone that is really not an expert but loves watching the sport :
Tim Tebow And The Miracles - The Triangle Blog

After every under-thrown ball and every broken play, the Denver Broncos came back to the huddle with their heads held high, never showing up their quarterback, no matter how off target or out of his depth he was. And when Tebow couldn't get anything going, which, let's be clear, was the majority of the game, the defense came out and played like highly-irritated Mongol raiders.
For most of the night, I was looking for a reason why. Why Mark Sanchez (who, for all his problems, has led the Jets to consecutive AFC Championship games) was getting nothing but shade from Plaxico Burress and hot, angry breath from offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer while Tebow, who was playing quarterback with the grace of an ice-skating Bambi, was getting the undying support of his teammates?

It´s propably absolutely right to criticice his skills as a passer, but what i don´t get is why people get so mad when those are ignored ? While a lot of the same people are happy to ignore actual skills when coming down on a flawed character ? (which i´ll happily admit to doing as well.)

Here´s a guy that does everything right except throw a perfect ball. Looking how he approaches the game i´d say it´s pretty much a given that he has put the hours in to work on those skills, but simply hasn´t been able to get to a better level than he has (for example i know for a fact that changing your shooting motion in basketball is insanely difficult and sometimes simply doesn´t work even if you put in a million hours. I´d suspect the same thing to be true for a football throwing motion).
Maybe he should have done so early in college, but then again that might have taken time from practice that helped him and his team in the present.

Yes, it´s insane to say "he´s the only reason they win". But it´s just as insane to say "anybody would have won theese games, he´s just benefitting from the team".

Truth is propably somewhere in between and like someone also mentioned : It´s not like he´s working alongside super skilled players at RB and WR.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by whomario

Yes, it´s insane to say "he´s the only reason they win". But it´s just as insane to say "anybody would have won theese games, he´s just benefitting from the team".

I don't believe that just anyone would have won these games, and there is something to be said for Tebow's character and ability to inspire his teammates.

The bottom line here, at least for me, is that he just doesn't appear to have the skillset to be an NFL starting QB. How long can he get by just on inspiration and hard work? I commend him for these things but I have my doubts that this will last. Then what?

[jbergey22]

Elway giving orders to Fox today to dumb down the offense even more.

This is comical. The Broncos start playing Tebow thinking that they will lose so they can please the fans and get rid of him. Now he is winning games and they are in a bad spot if they are thinking about going another direction as things stand right now.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Then what?

Then you can still commend him for theese things and maybe can be a little bit sad that it is unfortunately not good enough, that lazy but super talented players unfortunately have more success than guys like him.

The only one to blame would then be whoever made the decicion to draft him.

And even then, i personally will never be as hard on a guy for taking a great person that turns out to lack skills than a talented players who turns out to be a lazy ass.

[Senator]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

In 5 years he wont be a starting NFL QB. I think most people understand this. I get the impression people are having fun with this more than anything else. Most reasonable people realize this wont continue.

This is where you lose people. You don't really know. You think you know, but you don't. Neither do the people who think he is the next sure thing. He is at this time still a wildcard with an unknown future.

Making definitive comments loses credibility. Just ask IMETTRENTGREEN in my signature.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

if they are thinking about going another direction as things stand right now.

If that's what they're thinking then both of them probably ought to be run out of town on a rail.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Senator

This is where you lose people. You don't really know. You think you know, but you don't. Neither do the people who think he is the next sure thing. He is at this time still a wildcard with an unknown future.

Making definitive comments loses credibility. Just ask IMETTRENTGREEN in my signature.

Plenty of evidence to support my theory. Ill take my chances.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2011 QUARTERBACKS

He is currently only ahead of Cassell, Painter, and Gabbert in FO's passing efficiency rating. Considering coming out of college this was the biggest knock on him Id have to believe these are his "true" ratings. If all of this is true it really doesnt seem reasonable to think that he will be a 5 year starter does it?

Unless of course he really is Jesus.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

If all of this is true it really doesnt seem reasonable to think that he will be a 5 year starter does it?

He will if he keeps an .800 winning percentage.
And might if he keeps at/above .600

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

He will if he keeps an .800 winning percentage.
And might if he keeps at/above .600

This is true.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Were you not here for the "Trent Dilfer was better than Tony Romo" debates? People really do still believe this horseshit.

There is a point at which there is a case there. Look at Kyle Orton. I don't think there is anyone out there that would say Tebow is better than Orton. However, for whatever reason, the Broncos have won more with Tebow than they did with Orton this year.

Someone might bring up the competition, but its not like they're beating the NFC West here. They're beating solid teams.

Whether it is the coaches simplifying things, or the team rallying around him, they are winning more with him at the helm than they did before he took over.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

There is a point at which there is a case there. Look at Kyle Orton. I don't think there is anyone out there that would say Tebow is better than Orton. However, for whatever reason, the Broncos have won more with Tebow than they did with Orton this year.

Someone might bring up the competition, but its not like they're beating the NFC West here. They're beating solid teams.

Whether it is the coaches simplifying things, or the team rallying around him, they are winning more with him at the helm than they did before he took over.

Agree with everything you said except for the bolded part. The five teams the Broncos have beaten are a combined 22-24 overall. None of those teams are what I would consider a great win outside of possibly the Jets last night (nobody expected the Bengals to be this good this year).

Good for Tebow, hope he enjoys it while it lasts because it surely can't...right?

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I don't believe that just anyone would have won these games, and there is something to be said for Tebow's character and ability to inspire his teammates.

The bottom line here, at least for me, is that he just doesn't appear to have the skillset to be an NFL starting QB. How long can he get by just on inspiration and hard work? I commend him for these things but I have my doubts that this will last. Then what?

Can't say whether it'll last but if he has strong enough character and work ethic then he could well make a career out of it at the top level imho ... I'm far from an NFL expert, but if you look at the top level of professional soccer there ARE players who are fantastic athletes with incredible work ethics and professionalism, but limited skillsets, they're there because they are consistent and inspire their team-mates - some get to the fringes of the very top level and even get international caps for large countries.

Teebow impresses me because he comes across as fairly intelligent (especially within his sport) and also seems to have character and some backbone when it comes to sticking to his beliefs in the midst of a storm ... so kudo's to him and personally I hope he does well

(they're normally the chaps thought of as tenacious terriers who chase around madly for the ball and play the safe sensible passes - older viewers might remember 'David Batty' Leeds/Newcastle & England; he was a fantastic athlete and always give it his all, yet despite his incredible passing accuracy which is often quoted something like 75% of his passes were 10 yards or under and he couldn't shoot for toffee ... simply put he was limited (although still far better than I could ever dream of being ) but intelligent enough to know it and so play to his strength)

[Rizon]

FOF is like John Madden and Tim Tebow is like Bret Favre.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

...he couldn't shoot for toffee...

I will quite possibly never see this phrase again, especially in a football thread.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Plenty of evidence to support my theory. Ill take my chances.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2011 QUARTERBACKS

He is currently only ahead of Cassell, Painter, and Gabbert in FO's passing efficiency rating. Considering coming out of college this was the biggest knock on him Id have to believe these are his "true" ratings. If all of this is true it really doesnt seem reasonable to think that he will be a 5 year starter does it?

Unless of course he really is Jesus.

Vince Young was 26-16 (62% win) from 06 through 09. In the 3 seasons he qualified, Young was 24th, 28th and 18th in the Football Outsider's passing efficiency rating. If he hadn't gone cuckoo, there's reason to believe he would have been the starter in 2010 (5 seasons as a starter). There is a precedent for having success with a non-traditional passer at QB. Guys like Randall Cunningham, Rodney Peete, Mike Vick and Rich Gannon had similar stretches of success with ugly passing numbers. Heck, the Vikes were 11-5 in 1992 and Gannon ranked 33rd in FO's passing efficiency. In 1995, the Eagles were 10-6 and Rodney Peete was 32nd and Cunningham was 30th. In 2004, the Falcons were 11-5 and Vick ranked 38/40 in FO's passing efficiency. All these guys had long careers as starters.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Arles

Vince Young was 26-16 (62% win) from 06 through 09. In the 3 seasons he qualified, Young was 24th, 28th and 18th in the Football Outsider's passing efficiency rating. If he hadn't gone cuckoo, there's reason to believe he would have been the starter in 2010 (5 seasons as a starter). There is a precedent for having success with a non-traditional passer at QB. Guys like Randall Cunningham, Rodney Peete, Mike Vick and Rich Gannon had similar stretches of success with ugly passing numbers. Heck, the Vikes were 11-5 in 1992 and Gannon ranked 33rd in FO's passing efficiency. In 1995, the Eagles were 10-6 and Rodney Peete was 32nd and Cunningham was 30th. In 2004, the Falcons were 11-5 and Vick ranked 38/40 in FO's passing efficiency. All these guys had long careers as starters.

Anything is possible. These guys do have a lot of similarities with Tebow in being running qb types other than Peete not being a real great runner if I remember correctly.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Agree with everything you said except for the bolded part. The five teams the Broncos have beaten are a combined 22-24 overall. None of those teams are what I would consider a great win outside of possibly the Jets last night (nobody expected the Bengals to be this good this year).

Good for Tebow, hope he enjoys it while it lasts because it surely can't...right?

The Broncos were home against Oakland, Cincy and San Diego - with road games against Green Bay and Tennessee in their first 5 games (1-4). In their last 5, they've been on the road against Miami, Oakland and KC, with home games against Detroit and the Jets (4-1). Outside of GB, the second group looks pretty similar and there were more road games.

What's even more interesting is the team lost its best receiver (Lloyd), TE (Thomas), top 2 HBs (McGahee for parts of 2 games and Moreno for the season) and 3 members of the defense since the 5th game. And, Denver is significantly better in this next 5-game stretch.

No one knows for sure on Tebow yet, but he is certainly more successful with less than Orton was.

[gstelmack]

Reminds me of my internal WOOF debate:

NAME	G	GS	CMP	ATT	CMP%	YDS	YPA	YPC	TD	INT	SKD	YDS	QB_RTG
Johnny Goshen	6	6	106	164	64.6%	1349	8.23	12.73	7	6	4	22	89.2
Otis Coronado	9	4	70	107	65.4%	724	6.77	10.34	4	2	14	92	89.5

FWIW, the team is 3-3 with Goshen, 4-0 with Coronado. Goshen is 83/83, Coronado is 33/46. Goshen is "clearly" the better QB.

Who cares, the team is in first place in the division.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Anything is possible. These guys do have a lot of similarities with Tebow in being running qb types other than Peete not being a real great runner if I remember correctly.

Peete actually ran more than you would think. In 60 starts from 89-95, he totaled 1031 yards on 203 carries (5+ ypc) and 14 rushing TDs. That's about 275 yards and 4 TDs a season. He also had only one season with double digit passing TD numbers over than span.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Arles

Peete actually ran more than you would think. In 60 starts from 89-95, he totaled 1031 yards on 203 carries (5+ ypc) and 14 rushing TDs. That's about 275 yards and 4 TDs a season. He also had only one season with double digit passing TD numbers over than span.

All I remember of Peete is that he was on IR constantly.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

All I remember of Peete is that he was on IR constantly.

I think he had a hot wife, too?

[Pumpy Tudors]

The words "Rodney Peete" are racial code words for "has a hot black wife."

[Subby]

Really hard not to root for Tebow. Very solid underdog story.

[gkb]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

The words "Rodney Peete" are racial code words for "has a hot black wife."

I just did a Google image search Pumpy and THIS IS NOT TRUE!

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Subby

Really hard not to root for Tebow. Very solid underdog story.

Not sure how he qualifies as an underdog, seeing as how he was a first-round pick.

[Subby]

Being picked in the first round is part of the story. I don't think many people expected him to get drafted as a QB, much less in the first round.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by gkb

I just did a Google image search Pumpy and THIS IS NOT TRUE!

duh use black google dummy

[Subby]

is that the MC Hammer search site?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

duh use black google dummy

Is that the Canadian version?

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by gkb

I just did a Google image search Pumpy and THIS IS NOT TRUE!

His first wife was fugly, second one not too bad. One thing I noticed though...

Damn did he get fat!

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

duh use black google dummy

Whew, good thing I'm from Oakland or else I wouldn't have known this.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Welp, clearly, the last few posts are racial code words for "Holly Robinson Peete would finish at 1% in a Hot or Not poll."

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Arles

Vince Young was 26-16 (62% win) from 06 through 09. In the 3 seasons he qualified, Young was 24th, 28th and 18th in the Football Outsider's passing efficiency rating. If he hadn't gone cuckoo, there's reason to believe he would have been the starter in 2010 (5 seasons as a starter). There is a precedent for having success with a non-traditional passer at QB. Guys like Randall Cunningham, Rodney Peete, Mike Vick and Rich Gannon had similar stretches of success with ugly passing numbers. Heck, the Vikes were 11-5 in 1992 and Gannon ranked 33rd in FO's passing efficiency. In 1995, the Eagles were 10-6 and Rodney Peete was 32nd and Cunningham was 30th. In 2004, the Falcons were 11-5 and Vick ranked 38/40 in FO's passing efficiency. All these guys had long careers as starters.

To me, the difference is that all of those guys were non-traditional passers and weren't very accurate, but they could all throw a spiral. I mentioned this in the weekly thread, but without exaggeration, I think I throw a better 20 yard ball than Tim Tebow.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Welp, clearly, the last few posts are racial code words for "Holly Robinson Peete would finish at 1% in a Hot or Not poll."

She ain't bad, but the other one.....yikes.

Edit: Oops, that is just the other half of Rodney.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

She ain't bad, but the other one.....yikes.

Edit: Oops, that is just the other half of Rodney.

I was trying to figure out what you meant.

[Abe Sargent]

There was a time when QB's who "Just Won" but looked very ugly were removed from their position. Anyone remember Shaun King? He took over for Trent Dilfer mid-season as a rookie and took the Bucs all the way to the NFC Championship Game. The following year as a full time starter he took the Bucs to a Wild Card slot after Martin Grammatica missed a kick in OT to lose the NFC Central Title in week 17. Two years, one and a half as the starter, two playoff berths and some powerful game sot build on, like that great MNF game vs the Rams, and yet, with just two years of professional experience and a very strong resume, he was benched.

How about Charlie Batch? He still managed to win despite a surprise retirement by Barry Sanders changed the season massively, and on a woefully coached team with old or missing talent. His was the last time the Lions went to the playoffs. The team barely missed the playoffs the following year, and Matt Millen came in and cleaned house.


Now we cum all over Tim Tebow and Vince Young for winning, despite doing it ugly. (VY would still in Tennessee if he had acted the part and stopped being stupid).