The 2011 NBA Offseason---Stern says no

[SirFozzie]

"Our discussions did break off. We're saddened on behalf of the game... They made it clear if we wouldn't move off 50 percent [revenue split], there was nothing else to talk about." -- NBA Deputy commish

Players would go down to 52.5%, but that's it.

[molson]

I wonder how you can have 16-hour negotiating sessions when the big issue is just to figure out a % out of 100.

Players: 52.5%
Owners: No, 50%
Players: No, 52%
Owners: No, 50%

(Repeat for 18 hours)

[SunDevil]

They were never going to agree with Stern out sick for the meeting today. If there is one similarity between Stern and J. Edgar Hoover is that they both like the spotlight and the credit for everything.


Yes, I just went there.

[stevew]

Well...hopefully we get some cool barnstorming tours.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by molson

I wonder how you can have 16-hour negotiating sessions when the big issue is just to figure out a % out of 100.

Players: 52.5%
Owners: No, 50%
Players: No, 52%
Owners: No, 50%

(Repeat for 18 hours)

The said thing is the idiot players could get much of what else they want by agreeing to the 50/50 split. By the way, that 50/50 split offered by the owners was a clean 50/50 split, without the 350 million set aside for maintenance.

Each point comes out to around 40 million dollars. Which means the players are fighting over 100 million bucks.

The owners are strong in this. I can't imagine the players having the fight to go down over that money. 63 players made 10 million or more last year. There are 360 players (min) in the NBA. You really think the 63 who could easily handle a 1.3 million dollar paycut are going to lord over the other 300 guys? I don't think so.

The players aren't winning the PR battle. They aren't going to break the owners. They are letting some high school grads lead them down a dangerous path.

Let me state one more time that I"m not on the owners side on this. I'm just stating what I feel will happen and how things will play out. The owners might be a bunch of idiots, but they are in great shape from a unity and PR perspective.

The only hope for the players is an owner making some stupid statement about "thugs" or something like that. Then the tide would turn for the players and the owners would back off a little. I don't see that happening though, because the owner who said it would end up meeting zombie Stern in the hallway somewhere. Hell, Sterling and Cuban have had their mouths shut so far, doesn't that tell you how locked in the owners are?

[RainMaker]

Thought this was a great article by Windhorst. ESPN sort of buried it because it's a little anti-owners, but puts into perspective how those claims of losses are bullshit. Owners make a ton off their teams that don't show up in books.

NBA -- Cleveland Cavaliers good business for Dan Gilbert - ESPN

It feels like the owners are pushing toward what happened in hockey. Kill a season to get exactly what they want.

[SunDevil]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Thought this was a great article by Windhorst. ESPN sort of buried it because it's a little anti-owners, but puts into perspective how those claims of losses are bullshit. Owners make a ton off their teams that don't show up in books.

NBA -- Cleveland Cavaliers good business for Dan Gilbert - ESPN

It feels like the owners are pushing toward what happened in hockey. Kill a season to get exactly what they want.

Thanks Rainmaker, that is a good article.

[stevew]

I wonder how much of the saber rattling is because there is most likely a massive player to player loan network available. Guys like Kobe, Garnett, and many others probably have extensive amounts of cash to loan out. In guessing rates could easily be higher than 20%. If you're also getting a share of the insurance end of the deal, or are providing large origination costs, the potential is even better. Let's say Kobe can supply this pool 50 million dollars. He would net something like 15M once the markers are paid back. 15m taxed at a gains rate of 15% is actually better than earning 25m in salary I believe.


Anyways, I am just speculating based in the possibility of such a network, vs any sort of concrete proof. As we saw in the NFL lockout, desperate guys will spend a ton of money in order to acquire cash.

[whomario]

Euroleague Basketball is under way btw, so if anyone needs some basketball and can watch wednesdays/thursdays in the afternoon (most games between 2 and 3 pm eastern time), i just though i´d mention it

Not a ton of NBA players that got signed, mostly Europeans and a few role players. Actually saw Ty Lawson play though with Zalgiris, had a heavy home loss to CSKA and was ok. CSKA is a kick ass team though, you likely won´t find a team with better passing and ball movement anywhere with guys like Teodosic (best passer in europe), Shved (had his coming out at the euro basket) and als Khryapa (diaw-type player at the 4) and Kirilenko who is propably the biggest name from the NBA in the competition.

[RainMaker]

Khryapa had a run with the Bulls and was horrible.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Khryapa had a run with the Bulls and was horrible.

His problem in the NBA was that he was a roleplayer who couldn´t shoot the ball well (sort of a tweener 3/4 as well), in Europe he´s simply a guy who is a good defender, an amazing passer and gets to have the ball in his hands in situations other than spot up shots.
But truth be told he wasn´t stellar in Europe either, but at some point in 09/10 the light went on i suppose, since then he´s been awfully fun to watch.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by stevew

I wonder how much of the saber rattling is because there is most likely a massive player to player loan network available. Guys like Kobe, Garnett, and many others probably have extensive amounts of cash to loan out. In guessing rates could easily be higher than 20%. If you're also getting a share of the insurance end of the deal, or are providing large origination costs, the potential is even better. Let's say Kobe can supply this pool 50 million dollars. He would net something like 15M once the markers are paid back. 15m taxed at a gains rate of 15% is actually better than earning 25m in salary I believe.


Anyways, I am just speculating based in the possibility of such a network, vs any sort of concrete proof. As we saw in the NFL lockout, desperate guys will spend a ton of money in order to acquire cash.

That lasts a couple of months, tops. Sure, there are some doped who would pay that or get that in debt. But most are going to tell them t go to hell after a couple of months. Is there anyone out there who really believes th players are going o outlast the owners over the long haul? Even if you despise th owners, do you really believe that they are going to come hat in hand and give in to the players?

Again, the best shot the players had was to get a deal done quickly. The longer this goes on, the worse they will end up.

[stevew]

Interesting interview with Hunter on the BS Report. I'm revising my opinion to him being clueless instead of stupid and clueless.

Ultimately the Cuban proposal of no cap sounds interesting. If we're willing to surrender 4-6 teams, I think that it would be amazing.

I also think the rookie cap needs to go. I'd much rather see a guy in his first 3 years get paid market value, vs that guy getting underpaid so that Jared Jefferies can collect that extra 7M

[Gary Gorski]

I disagree - the rookie cap is good because it gives smaller market teams a window to build a good team and be in position to spend if they know they have a team worthwhile (see OKC).

I would like to see the maximum salary raised - make it like 40% of the cap. You pay the LeBrons $30m or so a year and that means the stars get spread out and teams realize if they save enough money they can buy one of those stars so there's no room for Jared Jeffries at anything other than the minimum or perhaps a 2 year MLE.

[stevew]

Supposedly some stuff coming out on Yahoo about a potential union decertification.

[stevew]

Anyone pick up "The Whore of Akron"?

The Whore of Akron: One Man's Search for the Soul of LeBron James:Amazon:Books

[stevew]

As many as 50 disgruntled NBA players – including several All-Stars – participated in a clandestine conference call with a top antitrust attorney on Thursday to discuss the process of decertifying the Players Association, league sources told Yahoo! Sports.

Angry with the concessions already made to the owners and fearful of worse ones coming with the completion of a new collective bargaining agreement, the players could push for a scenario that throws negotiations into chaos and could eventually lead to the loss of the 2011-12 season.

The players, frustrated with the deal union officials have been negotiating, held a call on Tuesday to discuss the state of labor talks with the NBA, and explored their options on Thursday with the antitrust attorney, sources said.

Said one player on the calls: “If nothing else, this takes us off our heels.”

Several prominent NBA agents were proponents of the calls, sources said.

Unless the Players Association refused to go lower than a 52-48 percent revenue split with the NBA and the remaining system issues went in the union’s favor, sources said there was broad agreement among the players on the call that the next step should be a serious consideration of decertifying the union and filing an antitrust suit in federal court.

There also was discussion about refusing to ratify a deal brought to the players by union executive director Billy Hunter and president Derek Fisher(notes), sources said.

“We’re beyond frustrated with the concessions that have already been made,” one source on the calls told Yahoo! Sports. “If the union gives in on the [basketball-related income] split and the open system issues don’t go to the players side, decertification may be the next step.”

Thirty percent of the union members would need to sign a petition to force a vote on decertification. A majority vote could then dissolve the union.

The NBA and the Players Association have scheduled a Saturday bargaining session to try and restart talks toward ending the four-month NBA lockout that’s already cost the league an entire month of games.

NBA owners have publicly and privately insisted they will not go beyond a 50-50 revenue split with the players. Many hardline owners are pushing NBA commissioner David Stern to lower the offer below 50 percent, sources said, but Stern knows doing so would make it extremely hard to get a deal done.

Part of the strategy by the agents and players isn’t just the act of decertification, but using the threat of it to gain leverage with the owners.

“This is not about Hunter and Fisher,” a source on the calls said. “The players want to know how to push the needle here. If talks this weekend, don’t produce 52 percent, they want to know what options they have.

Players discuss decertification on call - NBA - Yahoo! Sports

[stevew]

*crickets*

I have this at either a deal next monday, a 72 game season starting DEC 15, or probably no basketball this year/long drawn out decertification fight.

Anyone else hearing anything differently?

[jbergey22]

These fucking morons.

Fuck them for how they treat their loyal fans which Im not.

I hope the league crashes so they can have a professional basketball league rebuilt from scratch and it can be treated like a real sport again. David Stern can go to the WWE.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

David Stern can go to the WWE.

dont his refs already work there?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

dont his refs already work there?

It sure seems like it.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

dont his refs already work there?

They refuse to, because they don't believe in working rigged events that they don't personally rig themselves.

[bulletsponge]

players holding press conference, talk broke down

[stevew]

All I'm saying' is that if Derek Fisher, Billy Hunter and all the other labor pioneers say that this is a bad deal....


Sigh, fuck everyone

[bulletsponge]

well i was hoping for some meltdown for entertainment purposes (far more than NBA "action") and i got it

[molson]

And Stern says the offer just went back down to 47%. Good stuff. Chaos a step closer.

[SirFozzie]

Yeah, looks like the hardline owners were demanding so many B-list issues and trap doors.. including the right to unilaterally contract teams without even letting the union know (and then taking that share of the money out of the players side of revenues), etcetera. the NBA wanted the players to reject this deal so they could keep the PR win.

Yahoo! Sports - Sports News, Scores, Rumors, Fantasy Games, and more

[sterlingice]

So, uh, can someone explain to me how decertifying the union helps the players? I don't get the next step of this. It just seems like "Hah! Now you can't negotiate with us" and playing keep away. What is the strategic advantage that I'm just not seeing?

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

So, uh, can someone explain to me how decertifying the union helps the players? I don't get the next step of this. It just seems like "Hah! Now you can't negotiate with us" and playing keep away. What is the strategic advantage that I'm just not seeing?

SI

They can file an antitrust lawsuit against the league.

[Fidatelo]

This might be an ignorant question, but why does a union need to decertify in order to file an anti-trust lawsuit?

[SirFozzie]

Because collective bargaining (IE, a Union) is one of the defenses AGAINST an Anti-trust lawsuit

[SirFozzie]

And it sounds like Stern's going to threaten to void contracts over this. Counter productive. Since one of the big bugaboos why the players rejected this offer was too much limitation of freedom of movement, it's likely the players will say woohoo! Free Agency for all!

The season's over. It just hasn't been formally cancelled yet.

edit: Here's the story where Stern tries to say "If you decertify the union, I'm tearing up all the contracts"

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/m...,3350569.story

So in short, if Stern follows through in the threat, you're going to see the fantasy draft of all time.. which is such a fucking STUPID idea in real life, that hopefully it will never happen.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

edit: Here's the story where Stern tries to say "If you decertify the union, I'm tearing up all the contracts"

Stern would be best to just STFU. They obviously arent taking any of his threats seriously at this point so he might as well just keep quiet so he can pretend he has some power left.

[RainMaker]

Stern's threats to void contracts is ridiculous. Not only would a judge have to agree to this, but he'd need half the owners on board. I see a lot of teams that would be against that. Not to mention the damage that would do to the league by having all their stars switching teams.

While I want the NBA back, I don't blame the players. They are set to give up $3 billion over the next 10 years on top of some system changes. Then they get to hear Stern go on TV calling them greedy and not negotiating in good faith.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

While I want the NBA back, I don't blame the players.

Why? I'm sorry, but employees should not get 50% of the revenues.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by duckman

Why? I'm sorry, but employees should not get 50% of the revenues.

They aren't getting 50% of revenues. They are getting 50% of basketball related income.

[duckman]

Yeah, that $100-$150 million is making a huge dent into the overall revenue stream.

[SirFozzie]

Duckman: This is why you're an idiot:

People don't go to wal-mart to check out the greeter. People don't go to an NBA game to see the Maloof Brothers. In Wal-Mart, the goods that they are selling is the service. In the NBA, the players ARE the service.

The owners overreached, wanted the players to save the owners from themselves. They also wanted guaranteed profits, regardless of business acumen, the total dismantling of the union, and I'm sure if they could have worked language in there guaranteeing themselves a pony, they would have tried to get in there.

They overreached, and thought the players would fold. Good luck filling those arenas now.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Duckman: This is why you're an idiot.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Duckman: This is why you're an idiot:

People don't go to wal-mart to check out the greeter. People don't go to an NBA game to see the Maloof Brothers. In Wal-Mart, the goods that they are selling is the service. In the NBA, the players ARE the service.

The owners overreached, wanted the players to save the owners from themselves. They also wanted guaranteed profits, regardless of business acumen, the total dismantling of the union, and I'm sure if they could have worked language in there guaranteeing themselves a pony, they would have tried to get in there.

They overreached, and thought the players would fold. Good luck filling those arenas now.

you do understand that this is all playing out pretty much exactly how the owners want it to right?

[SirFozzie]

Then they're stupider then I thought. Hockey rebounded, but they had a good deal. They had gains of $3 billion over 10 years, and some system changes. They've decided it wasn't good enough and are trying for more. Honestly, I think they've overplayed their hand.

Unlike NFL, there are options for the players overseas. Stern's threat to throw the NBA into sandbox mode is laughable... and you should never make threats that make you look ridiculous.

I don't think there's going to be any NBA this year... and I think that any deal will probably be BETTER for the players then what's currently on the table:

Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo's NBA Guy summed it up pretty much in a tweet today:

This is Stern's worst nightmare. Owners could've mildly relented on few system issues, and ended this weeks ago. Now, all hell breaks loose.

Stern did not want this. His legacy is going to be GONE by the time this is over.

[EagleFan]

Let it all fall down like a house of cards. It's nice to not have to see ESPN wasting time on those overpaid prima donas.

[SirFozzie]

I agree, although you probably mean the players. I mean the owners.

[RainMaker]

As SirFozzie put it, there is no sport that relies on their players more than the NBA. The NFL could suit up a bunch of guys off the street and people would still tune in. The NBA ratings are almost entirely based on stars and markets. People weren't tuning in to see the Miami Heat because they just love basketball, they were tuning in to see Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Bosh play it.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

As SirFozzie put it, there is no sport that relies on their players more than the NBA. The NFL could suit up a bunch of guys off the street and people would still tune in. The NBA ratings are almost entirely based on stars and markets. People weren't tuning in to see the Miami Heat because they just love basketball, they were tuning in to see Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Bosh play it.

Probably because Stern markets it this way. It used to about the team in the 80s.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

As SirFozzie put it, there is no sport that relies on their players more than the NBA. The NFL could suit up a bunch of guys off the street and people would still tune in. The NBA ratings are almost entirely based on stars and markets. People weren't tuning in to see the Miami Heat because they just love basketball, they were tuning in to see Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Bosh play it.

Those idiots are already well paid beyond belief. The owners are the ones taking the financial risk. The players should be thanking their lucky stars for the chance to do what they do and make what they make.

They don't even play the game like it's supposed to be played. I would much rather watch a college game any day of the week over that crap they try to sell as NBA basketball.

[Young Drachma]

The whole "players are undereducated neanderthals, the owners are the real heroes" lines is really getting old. Every internet comment on this story on ESPN and elsewhere starts off with this meme. Whatever.

NBA players did not force owners to pay guys like Brian Scalabrene and Joe Johnson to contracts in the stratosphere. The owners are losing because they're consistently making bad bets, Stern lets teams move to ridiculous markets like Memphis and New Orleans from vibrant cities and wants to plead ignorance as to how his league got into this situation. Add that with some small market owner compounding the situation by paying some guy who doesn't deserve it a max contract to give fans the impression they're trying to win.

The NBA of the 80s was against a backdrop where college kids didn't leave early as much, shoe money wasn't influencing the amateur game and AAU ball wasn't superior to high school (or in some cases, college) basketball teams. We watched LeBron play HIGH SCHOOL BASKETBALL on television. He was that hyped and has largely delivered under that petri dish/microscope. If his worst gaffe was leaving Cleveland to go play with his friends rather than being Jordan/Magic/Isiahesque in his faux disdain for Bosh/Wade, then I'll take it. But the point is, we're not in a monochromatic media world anymore.

I've gone on record (elsewhere) about how frustratingly stupid the players leadership has been in this situation, but all of this people running to the aid of the dudes charging $10 for beers is a bit yawn inducing in arenas that your tax dollars probably pay for under the guise of "community redevelopment." Owners were rich before they bought teams, they'll be rich after. Players have short shelf lives and I'm all for them maximizing while they can. They should work with the owners. I don't think the request to level the playing field is uneven, but the way Stern is going about this is why he's the Robert Mugabe of sports commissioners.

No one forced owners to deal guys where they wanted to be to control their own destiny. But to effectively say "we're not going to have a season because the players won't cave into our demands" seems like a crappy plan by any standard. Maybe the players get screwed either way in the end, but...it's not like they're on strike and while people seem to hate that millionaires are complaining; the bottom line is...the league's owners are asking for millions in concessions largely due to their own poor decisions.

If we're supposed to behold the magical talent and richness of the owners for their brilliance and ignore the brutes who unlike those great college kids have the nerve to seek to get paid for their craft (oh the horrors!) then I'm calling B.S. on fuckfaces who think having a team in Sacramento or moving a team into Brooklyn in a landgrab farce is some kind of business strategy worth lauding.

The owners are just as much to blame as the players for different reasons.

And I say all of this as a hockey and baseball fan with no dog in the NBA hunt at all. (As in, no favorite team and will watch to be social more than anything.)

[SirFozzie]

yeah, cuz nothing says real basketball like 35% shooting and standing at the three poiint line dribbling for 30 seconds like in most big NCAA games.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

yeah, cuz nothing says real basketball like 35% shooting and standing at the three poiint line dribbling for 30 seconds like in most big NCAA games.

D1 College teams shot 47.8% on 2 pointers and 34.4% on 3 pointers last year. Not much different than the NBA.

Some teams like to use the shotclock and pass the ball to not emphasize 1 on 1 play the NBA is known for. Other college teams run and gun. Wide variety of offenses and defenses in the college game so you really cant judge it off of the 1 game you might have seen last year.

[Big Fo]

For me, college basketball is only really interesting during a few weeks in March so I hope something can get worked out. I wonder what the absolute latest point a deal could be made is. Even a ~30 game season might be enough to make sure that most or all of the good teams make the playoffs.