The Official 2016-17 NBA Regular Season Thread

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by wustin

I wasn't talking about from a BPA perspective. Ball's history, his background, his school, his fans, the city of LA. Objectively LA fans want Fultz, in their hearts everyone wants Ball to stay at home.

Also I think he pairs very well with Russell in the backcourt because he doesn't need the ball in his hands to thrive. The NBA is becoming positionless in the backcourt anyways. Walton is developing Ingram and Randle as playmakers, so he needs backcourt players to catch and shoot like Steph and Klay.

You don't pass up potential franchise players to draft local guys, that's how you end up like the Bobcats in their first decade, and that goes 10x more if you're the Lakers making money hand over fist and with no attendance worries. You also don't worry about fit with players who look like they'll never reach All-Star level (Russell, Randle). And it'll only help accelerate Ingram's development to get extra reps so he can be better as a secondary or matchup dependent option but he's not going to develop into a primary creator (at least imo, I know some still disagree.) Fultz is also shooting the same 3-pt & FT % despite his worse teammates & I assume more shots coming off pull ups. But if the Lakers luck in to the #1 pick I hope you're right and they're dumb enough to do it, especially if the Celtics get #2.

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I havent seen that Lonzo can't finish with his right hand. That's pretty weird for a guy who is right handed.

It's also extremely weird (and more noticeable) for a righty like Ball to almost exclusively step back to his left too, although with his release being on the left side of his face maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe I'm just projecting from that & it's more accurate to say he's just not a great finisher at the rim off the dribble or someone who excels at drawing contact & FT's.

I love watching him play, and hope he can keep succeeding at a high level with the same style at the NBA level too, but I think Fultz is clearly ahead, Smith is unless he has big work ethic questions, and then it comes down to team preference between Fox & Ball. You look at the head to head matchup between the two and how much Ball struggled to get to the rim and collapse the defense & I can easily see a team thinking Fox has a higher upside as he fills out. Who knows, maybe a team even falls in love with Ntikilina, though I think the shine is off him a little bit. Toss in non-PG's like Jackson (who I really like), Tatum (who I don't), Markkanen (who will probably end up on the Celtics as what they thought Kelly Olynyk would be if we don't get #1 and keep the pick) Isaac (who is so far away I don't know what to think) and even Malik Monk (who is worth a try as a new-age NBA PG, and is also fun as heck to watch, but would terrify me with his extremely low rebounding & assist numbers), then think about some of the teams drafting in the top 5 who think they have PG covered (Boston though not if Fultz is on the board, maybe Phoenix though they could trade Bledsoe, Minnesota though I think Dunn sucks, maybe Miami with Dragic, New Orleans if they think they will re-sign Jrue, heck even Portland/Charlotte/Denver are within range of #5), and somebody's sliding. I think it's a really fluid draft 2-9 right now, but Fultz is #1 with a bullet barring injury.

[MrBug708]

He's a righty with an extremely ugly shooting motion. He can finish fairly well but can't out jump anyone, so often gets sucked into driving and can't lay it up or pass out of it.

I think it comes down to whether or not you want to draft Jason Kidd or James Harden.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Lonzo Ball's little brother just dropped 92 in a game. He was 37/61 (61%) in the game.

Up 20 and fouling to extend the game so Ball can shoot every time down the court is a shitty way to get to 92.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Up 20 and fouling to extend the game so Ball can shoot every time down the court is a shitty way to get to 92.

So is having him stand at mid court or farther and letting him cherry pick is as well.

[MrBug708]

I don't get the point of the comments

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

He's a righty with an extremely ugly shooting motion. He can finish fairly well but can't out jump anyone, so often gets sucked into driving and can't lay it up or pass out of it.

I think it comes down to whether or not you want to draft Jason Kidd or James Harden.

I'll take the under on any Kidd comparisons for defensive reasons alone. Reminds me more of Evan Turner with a much better catch & shoot jumper. If you can't beat guys cleanly at the perimeter or finish through contact/draw FT's at the rim help just doesn't come in the NBA these days and you're threading all your passes through the eye of a needle. Maybe he is a pick & roll savant who just hasn't gotten the chance to showcase that part of his game at UCLA, or develops his dribble like Steph Curry did, but right now he's not beating NBA defenses in iso's & I question if he ever will.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I don't get the point of the comments

Not really the thread for it, but it was mentioned here. 92 is an accomplishment, but the way he got there was a joke.

The dad seems like a piece of work too.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I think the defensive limitations are primarily athletic as well, and not just concentration/effort based (though those are evident and hopefully would improve with a change of scenery and general maturity), but he's a pretty legit offensive center. You can at least build a strong bench unit centered around a post guy that demands double teams.

I just don't think you can have a Center who doesn't defend, rebound, or shoot in today's game. Sure he's a nice post-up guy, but post-ups are incredibly inefficient. The top offensive teams rarely do it.

Maybe he gets better in the other areas but his best asset is something teams are moving away from.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I'll take the under on any Kidd comparisons for defensive reasons alone. Reminds me more of Evan Turner with a much better catch & shoot jumper. If you can't beat guys cleanly at the perimeter or finish through contact/draw FT's at the rim help just doesn't come in the NBA these days and you're threading all your passes through the eye of a needle. Maybe he is a pick & roll savant who just hasn't gotten the chance to showcase that part of his game at UCLA, or develops his dribble like Steph Curry did, but right now he's not beating NBA defenses in iso's & I question if he ever will.

I agree. Young Jason Kidd was a hell of an athlete. Evan Turner with a better jump shot is a much better comparison.

The advanced metrics really like Ball, but I'm skeptical. I don't know who he's defending and I don't see his game translating smoothly to the next level.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Not really the thread for it, but it was mentioned here. 92 is an accomplishment, but the way he got there was a joke.

The dad seems like a piece of work too.

That style has worked for the past 3 years so it's hard to argue the success it's brought at this level

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

That style has worked for the past 3 years so it's hard to argue the success it's brought at this level

I'll defend the general style, but fouling when up 20 in the 4th quarter to go for your son's personal achievements is bush league.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I just don't think you can have a Center who doesn't defend, rebound, or shoot in today's game. Sure he's a nice post-up guy, but post-ups are incredibly inefficient. The top offensive teams rarely do it.

Maybe he gets better in the other areas but his best asset is something teams are moving away from.

I agree for the most part, which is why it'll be intriguing if Anthony Davis is good enough in all 3 of those areas to make it work (if the trade happens - sounded very close to a done deal the other night, not so much now). But even if it doesn't he has a role as a bench & matchup guy. F.e. I hated the idea of signing Greg Monroe, but he kills the Celtics every time we play because we don't have anyone who can match up against a post up brute. Okafor averaged 17.5ppg on 51% shooting as a 20 year old on a team without much shooting or a real PG - there's an NBA rotation player there, just not a top 3 pick.

[RainMaker]

His team has played significantly worse on both ends of the court with him on it than off. He can put up a bunch of points but if it's not efficient and hurts the team, he's just not a good player.

He is dead last this season among Centers in RPM. He was dead last year as well. You just can't play him.

[albionmoonlight]

I just don't see how "Anthony Davis is so good that he might make up for this guy's shortcomings" is really a ringing endorsement.

It's like me trying to sell a shitty car to my brother with the argument "Hey, you live close enough to your job to walk, so it isn't like you'll be using the car a lot anyway." Possibly true, but not really an argument in favor of the car.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I'll defend the general style, but fouling when up 20 in the 4th quarter to go for your son's personal achievements is bush league.
I agree for the most part, which is why it'll be intriguing if Anthony Davis is good enough in all 3 of those areas to make it work (if the trade happens - sounded very close to a done deal the other night, not so much now). But even if it doesn't he has a role as a bench & matchup guy. F.e. I hated the idea of signing Greg Monroe, but he kills the Celtics every time we play because we don't have anyone who can match up against a post up brute. Okafor averaged 17.5ppg on 51% shooting as a 20 year old on a team without much shooting or a real PG - there's an NBA rotation player there, just not a top 3 pick.

The dad isn't the coach

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I just don't see how "Anthony Davis is so good that he might make up for this guy's shortcomings" is really a ringing endorsement.

It's like me trying to sell a shitty car to my brother with the argument "Hey, you live close enough to your job to walk, so it isn't like you'll be using the car a lot anyway." Possibly true, but not really an argument in favor of the car.

I think for those making the argument, the closer analogy is "the air conditioning doesn't work, but you live in a frigid environment so won't need it."

I tend to be with you in that if you need an all-world type talent next to him to hide his shortcomings, he's probably not worth it.

[Groundhog]

The argument is less about how good Okafor is in general than it is how badly they could use his interior scoring ability.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Not really the thread for it, but it was mentioned here. 92 is an accomplishment, but the way he got there was a joke.

The dad seems like a piece of work too.

Yeah it was definitely a LaMe way to score 92.

Spoiler

[CrescentMoonie]

For only the second time this season, Ian Mahinmi is more than just a theoretical concept.

[RainMaker]

So Oakley just got tossed from the Garden. Assaulted a couple security guards.

Ian Schafer on Twitter: "Soooooo Charles Oakley just got into a fight at he Knicks game. https://t.co/klZBD89VI7"

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

His team has played significantly worse on both ends of the court with him on it than off. He can put up a bunch of points but if it's not efficient and hurts the team, he's just not a good player.

He is dead last this season among Centers in RPM. He was dead last year as well. You just can't play him.

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I just don't see how "Anthony Davis is so good that he might make up for this guy's shortcomings" is really a ringing endorsement.

The argument would be that the Pelicans have so badly mismanaged their assets since lucking into Anthony Davis that they might as well gamble that a young player on a cheap deal for 3.5 more years with a discernible above average skill will put out more effort on the other end and be enough of a better fit after a trade that he can outperform Omer Asik, Alexis Ajinca, & a 2018 1st round pick (lottery protected?). Especially considering Terrence Jones & Motiejunas are UFA's.

Originally Posted by MrBug708

The dad isn't the coach

No, he's just the guy bragging he's responsible for all their success (and to be fair probably is), who'd pull his kids out of school if the coach didn't cater to his demands. Mea culpa.

[stevew]

The Knicks are such a dumpster fire.

[mckerney]

[CrescentMoonie]

The Heat win their 12th in a row, blowing out the Bucks in Milwaukee, and move percentage points ahead of Milwaukee for 10th in the East, still just 2 games out of a playoff spot. I'm now rooting for them to complete the improbable run from 11-30 to a playoff spot, with the added bonus of them somehow knocking off Cleveland in round 1. Spoelstra has got to be coach of the year if they actually make it to the post season.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Once Oakley threw the first shove (much less any of the ones that came after that), I'm kind of shocked that security didn't drop him where he stood.

Amazing restraint on their part & a fantastic job by them to get him removed with as little visible trouble as they did.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Once Oakley threw the first shove (much less any of the ones that came after that), I'm kind of shocked that security didn't drop him where he stood.

Amazing restraint on their part & a fantastic job by them to get him removed with as little visible trouble as they did.

Yeah. That could have ended up much worse than it did. Very professional job.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

The argument would be that the Pelicans have so badly mismanaged their assets since lucking into Anthony Davis that they might as well gamble that a young player on a cheap deal for 3.5 more years with a discernible above average skill will put out more effort on the other end and be enough of a better fit after a trade that he can outperform Omer Asik, Alexis Ajinca, & a 2018 1st round pick (lottery protected?). Especially considering Terrence Jones & Motiejunas are UFA's.

That above average skill is just not important in today's NBA.

[JPhillips]

Oakley just became the most popular man in NYC. Whether or not what he did was right, he did what every Knicks fan wants to do.

[panerd]

Is that Vic Mackey behind Doc Rivers? Why didn't he intervene?

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Once Oakley threw the first shove (much less any of the ones that came after that), I'm kind of shocked that security didn't drop him where he stood.

Amazing restraint on their part & a fantastic job by them to get him removed with as little visible trouble as they did.

Agreed. Especially because Charles Oakley is one of the more intimidating people on the planet.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Once Oakley threw the first shove (much less any of the ones that came after that), I'm kind of shocked that security didn't drop him where he stood.

Amazing restraint on their part & a fantastic job by them to get him removed with as little visible trouble as they did.

Oakley is a rather large guy. I think security was waiting for someone to take initiative because a physical confrontation would not have been good front row at a game.

[wustin]

It was only one game and the box score doesn't show it but Ball was simply amazing last night.

This narrative about him not being able to beat his man off the dribble and finish at the rim is going to be a joke come pre-draft workouts.

Also as it has been said time again, he has range beyond the NBA 3-pt line.

Lonzo Ball (UCLA) vs Oregon // 2.9.17 // 15 Pts, 11 Rebs - YouTube

edit: and before you start going at him for only having on assist that game. Oregon played great defense (UCLA had to go to isolation plays for Ball down the stretch). His teammates bricked open shots passed by him and one of them missed a layup.

edit2: Magic Johnson was courtside *wink wink*

[Groundhog]

That shooting form is not going to cut it in the NBA, IMO. Way too easy to block.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

That shooting form is not going to cut it in the NBA, IMO. Way too easy to block.

I agree, and keep in mind, I am.a UCLA fan, so I am saying that even while biased.

That said, they said he wouldn't be able to do a lot of what he did in high school when he reached college, and yet he has. So I am not putting amything past him.

FWIW, the comparable I see is not Jason Kidd, but Steph Curry, another player who has succeeded immensely despite not being particularly athletic. Ball has the range and he hits those shots. He also has a similarly strong feel for working in space. Curry is a better overall shooter of course, but I think as a pro, Ball will be a better passer and a little more like CP3 in how he dominates game flow.

[Chief Rum]

Dola, obviously Ball has a LONG LONG way to go before he can get within even the same ballpark as Curry of course, but just noting there are definite game style similarities.

[wustin]

If Kevin Martin and a bunch of midgets have no issues shooting in the NBA, why would Ball have any issues?

[whomario]

Pulling up consistently when going right definitely is going to be an issue with that form (which is more extreme in that regard than Martins), but then again those types of shots are not going to make or break a Guard in this day and age where there´s so many options other than a contested mid-range pull up.

It´s also worth noting that it´s not something a defender really can target in the flow of the game, it´s also not easy to break your own pattern of defending a shot from game to game. Muscle memory applies for defense, too. I also think this "easy to block" issue is very regularly overblown for perimeter players, as in reality that´s not even on the agenda for defenders out there.

His shot has good arc, the wrist motion/balancing is pretty solid and he gets good rotation on the ball. That´s a worth something and you also have to consider his height. Assuming he´s able to actually play PG with an SG next to him, he´ll have a few inches on most defenders which should help mitigate the issue.

[MrBug708]

I also dont think you'll see Ball shooting that much in the NBA. He's a PG first and foremost and he's been shooting this year more than he really needs to be because it's kind of been an audition for the NBA. His knack has always been he isn't consistent from deep. I think his form is so funky, guys miss easy blocks. Like his shot last night should have been easily blocked, but the guy had terrible timing on it.

[MrBug708]

The hype is starting to come in for a Ball to the Lakers, between Magic coming back and the win last night

[Vince, Pt. II]

Obviously the full story is not out there yet, but how in the world can the Knicks possibly come out of this without looking like the bad guy?

• Security incident at your venue that seemed like it could have been a LOT worse - but let's fire the head of security.
• Even though you fired the head of security, you blame the fan as the reason the incident happened.
• Ban the beloved fan favorite former star for life.

This can't possibly end poorly for them.

[wustin]

I've been on that train for the past month. Fultz is still a more complete player but Lonzo is just the better story. He's had Bill Walton riding his wave and now he has Magic.

Edit: Mitch Kupchak was at the game last night too lol

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Obviously the full story is not out there yet, but how in the world can the Knicks possibly come out of this without looking like the bad guy?

• Security incident at your venue that seemed like it could have been a LOT worse - but let's fire the head of security.
• Even though you fired the head of security, you blame the fan as the reason the incident happened.
• Ban the beloved fan favorite former star for life.

This can't possibly end poorly for them.

From the moment he stepped into the garden, from the moment he walked through the doors, he began with this behavior, abusive behavior, disrespectful behavior, stuff you don't want to say on the radio.

"You do those things, you come to the Garden and you behave that way ... you will be ejected and banned," Dolan added. "That is the right thing to do. Yes, I understand he was a big star and a Knick, et cetera, but that doesn't excuse people from that kind of behavior."

I look forward to all the YouTube videos of MSG patrons being kicked out of the building for language that you don't want to say on the radio.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by wustin

I've been on that train for the past month. Fultz is still a more complete player but Lonzo is just the better story. He's had Bill Walton riding his wave and now he has Magic.

Edit: Mitch Kupchak was at the game last night too lol

They didnt sit next to each other...haha

[jbergey22]

Was very impressed with Ball last night. Plays, acts, and talks like a winner. His form is ugly but so was Reggie Millers. Ball is underrated quick off the dribble. His crossover was breaking ankles last night. Granted Ive seen very little of him thus far but after hearing the negativity about him I had to see him in action.

[wustin]

Three players with 40 points tonight but the most impressive was Draymond Green who was 6 points away from a quadruple double and 1 point away from a 5x5.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Obviously the full story is not out there yet, but how in the world can the Knicks possibly come out of this without looking like the bad guy?

• Security incident at your venue that seemed like it could have been a LOT worse - but let's fire the head of security.
• Even though you fired the head of security, you blame the fan as the reason the incident happened.
• Ban the beloved fan favorite former star for life.

This can't possibly end poorly for them.

Honestly, the takes on this bewilder me.

Oakley shows up, acts like a p.o.s., assaults guards ... and he's somehow the victim? Dolan being inept doesn't excuse Oakley, and fanboying him only enables his conduct.

W.T.F., the world truly has lost its f'n mind.

edit to add: this wasn't solely at your take, I had the misfortune of hearing some clowns on sportstalk radio since the incident. My level of w.t.f. was considerably influenced by those.

[wustin]

Both parties are at fault, knicks just keep shooting themselves in the foot though. If Oakley has any PR people they've done a good job.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Honestly, the takes on this bewilder me.

Oakley shows up, acts like a p.o.s., assaults guards ... and he's somehow the victim? Dolan being inept doesn't excuse Oakley, and fanboying him only enables his conduct.

W.T.F., the world truly has lost its f'n mind.

edit to add: this wasn't solely at your take, I had the misfortune of hearing some clowns on sportstalk radio since the incident. My level of w.t.f. was considerably influenced by those.

No, this is a fair reaction even to just my take. I just wonder about the incredible conflict between their responses. If Oakley was the issue, why fire the head of security? Especially considering how well the security guards kept the situation from escalating once Oakley started shoving people.

Also, in all of the video I've seen, Oakley seemed far from disgruntled enough to warrant an ejection for a considerable length of time; it wasn't until the security guards touched him that he got physical. The narrative that the team is putting out there is that he was being obnoxious and awful the entire time.

Let's say that he WAS being obnoxious enough to warrant an ejection from the get go - why the character assassination in the media? Fire the head of security for letting him get that far, and handle things with Oakley out of the public eye. Let him know that his actions won't be tolerated, but that you want to give him the option of handling this discreetly due to his status as a beloved former player. Instead, they double down in the media by doing everything they can to make him look awful.

I'm normally not one for condoning this type of action in any way, but it just seems like the Knicks are doing everything they possibly can to make this stay in the limelight when it seems obvious that they should want this to go away as soon as possible.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

No, this is a fair reaction even to just my take. I just wonder about the incredible conflict between their responses. If Oakley was the issue, why fire the head of security? Especially considering how well the security guards kept the situation from escalating once Oakley started shoving people.

The between lines takeaway I got from the bits & pieces is that he should never have gotten to his seat. Which I can see falling on the (now former) head of security. They even used some "last straw" phrasing so I could easily imagine someone who might be a little too starstruck to do his job, that sort of thing.

Let him know that his actions won't be tolerated, but that you want to give him the option of handling this discreetly due to his status as a beloved former player. Instead, they double down in the media by doing everything they can to make him look awful.

This isn't happening in a vacuum though. There's, what, several years of history with him & Dolan I gather. Oakley is entitled to have an f.u. attitude toward Dolan ... but expecting to have one AND expecting to be treated like a returning hero by the guy he's so f.u. about is some pretty warped entitlement-attitude b.s. If you're gonna be all f.u. then acting butthurt about the other guy being f.u. back is pretty silly to me.

Oakley comes across like a guy who is simply getting more & more unstable as the years pass. He wasn't exactly the model of civility in his playing days, so him being an unbearable asshole now isn't a big stretch to imagine.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Fair points, all. Perhaps they do come away having done the right thing. Just seems like the all-out media blitz is a bit strong considering his public regard and the current state of the franchise.

[Chief Rum]

What y'all need to remember is...Knicks.