Game of Thrones on HBO

[Radii]

Originally Posted by stevew

Tyrion's guilt? Did I miss something?

Tyrion was accused of murdering Joffrey. His trial for that led to the trial by combat in the mountain and the viper episode.

[stevew]

Yeah. But I don't understand what bug is suggesting. Tyrion had nothing to do with the murder of Joffrey

[Logan]

Originally Posted by stevew

Yeah. But I don't understand what bug is suggesting. Tyrion had nothing to do with the murder of Joffrey

He means does he feel worse that Joffrey actually died, or that he believed Tyrion could have killed Joffrey, while also running him the hell out of town for it?

[thesloppy]

My only nitpick with last night (aside from the Euron stuff mentioned) was the scene with the Sand Snake & Cersei in the dungeon, in which the poison we've previously seen work in hours could suddenly take months or years to kill, and seems to be an obvious set-up for some sort of reprieve.

[stevew]

Greyscale is a death sentence!

Smash cut to

"Scrape it off with a knife using basic paramedic skills and then coat the guy with some Neosporin derivative"

Smash cut to

"Ok, you're healed and good to go!"

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

It's really setting up for Dany and Jon to join forces and turn the tide on Cersei - but she had a banner week for her cause.

OTOH, that's way too obvious, right? It seems very predictable for Jon and Dany join forces, kick Cersei to the curb, and then unite to face the real enemy to the far North. And the series (from the books to the show) have delighted in subverting fantasy cliches. And what are Jon and Dany but walking cliches (relatively forgotten noble children rising in stature until they are the ones to save the world from evil forces?). I doubt it'll be as simple as that (and if it is, well then that's just dull and crappy).

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Logan

He means does he feel worse that Joffrey actually died, or that he believed Tyrion could have killed Joffrey, while also running him the hell out of town for it?

The events afterward spiraled out of control, including the death of Marcella

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

My only nitpick with last night (aside from the Euron stuff mentioned) was the scene with the Sand Snake & Cersei in the dungeon, in which the poison we've previously seen work in hours could suddenly take months or years to kill, and seems to be an obvious set-up for some sort of reprieve.

But Bronn has to save his lady love!

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

But Bronn has to save his lady love!

The Warden of the South would be a nice position for Bronn

[Edward64]

HBO was hacked and spoilers are supposedly coming.

That sucks but know I'll probably read whatever is put out there.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Edward64

HBO was hacked and spoilers are supposedly coming.

That sucks but know I'll probably read whatever is put out there.

Spoilers for this season have been around for months as it is. Pretty much the only way they can spoil it more is by posting full episodes.

[Groundhog]

I'll happily ignore any leaks, but I'm sure douches will post stuff that will be hard to miss.

[Edward64]

I did not know this about the Queen of Thorns. I vaguely remember seeing some reruns of the Avengers.

Ice and Fire finally met on 'Game of Thrones,' and a look at its scene-stealing queen - LA Times

In the hands of Rigg — who memorably portrayed Emma Peel in “The Avengers” of the late ’60s — Olenna held her own kind of court in the gardens of King’s Landing. She out-dueled the equally quick-witted eunuch Varys (Conleth Hill), who found his attempts at courtly flattery buried in her retorts. “Are you here to seduce me? Seduce away, it’s been so long,” she taunted. “Though I rather think it’s all for naught. What happens when the nonexistent bumps against the decrepit?”

[stevew]

Is Gendry the son of Robert and Cercei? Is he the pretty black haired boy she spoke of in the first season?

[molson]

Originally Posted by stevew

Is Gendry the son of Robert and Cercei? Is he the pretty black haired boy she spoke of in the first season?

He's the son of Robert and one of Robert's whores, or at least, that's what's believed at the moment.

[stevew]

Seems that it could be plausible, though, correct? No lines are throwaways on the show.

[molson]

Yes - I think the main characters all think that Gendry is Robert's son, that's what Ned was getting to the bottom of in season 1, and that's why Davos sent Gendry away on that rowboat, because he knew Gendry had "royal blood" and was in danger from Melisandre.

I don't remember the Cercei line about the black haired boy though, so I may be misunderstanding your question.

[stevew]

In season 1’s “The Kingsroad,” Cersei visits Catelyn Stark during Catelyn’s vigil at the bedside of her son, Brandon, whom Jaime had attempted to murder. She offers her sympathies to Catelyn and speaks of her first born son, a “black-haired beauty” who died shortly after his birth.

-from some article.

[molson]

Oh, OK, I just saw that theory after Googling.....Could be, I never thought of that. Ya, definitely plausible. I haven't thought much about Gendry but obviously there's more possibilities when there's one Baratheon left out there.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

My only nitpick with last night (aside from the Euron stuff mentioned) was the scene with the Sand Snake & Cersei in the dungeon, in which the poison we've previously seen work in hours could suddenly take months or years to kill, and seems to be an obvious set-up for some sort of reprieve.

Well, not months or years. Qyburn said hours or days.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I guess the one thing that bugs me is that Euron somehow built a ridiculously powerful navy in a few months that has wiped out two big armies.

That's my biggest problem with this season so far, there are too many of these moments.

Theon stole the entire fleet 2 episodes ago when he escaped. I don't know how much time passes, but Euron builds a fleet in maybe TWO months that makes the old fleet look like a bunch of rubber duckies floating on the water.

You can tell they have an end goal they are working towards, and will shoehorn things into place to make it work. It's quite a big difference from the first several seasons that were working off the Martin reference material.

Mind you, it is still awesome. But you have to be willing to overlook some weird logic blips here and there.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Mota

You can tell they have an end goal they are working towards, and will shoehorn things into place to make it work. It's quite a big difference from the first several seasons that were working off the Martin reference material.

As I said a few pages back though, the reference material is 2/3rds of the problem - the story and volume of characters grew so much that IMO there really isn't any other way to close off all the different threads and bring this thing to a conclusion.

[RainMaker]

I think the other issue is the show felt like it went real slow the last couple seasons. Now they're trying to play out 2-3 seasons worth of content into one shortened season.

[molson]

We don't know how long Euron had to build up a navy (could have been years), and we don't know how much of the fleet was really stolen, we don't know how many of the ships were built and how many were stolen (he is a pirate after after), and we don't even know that his bragging of "1,000" ships is even true. Maybe it's 100.

And naval superiority has never been a problem for the Greyjoys. They've wiped out the Lannister fleet before. (I think that was at least hinted at in the show) It's the land war part they've always sucked at.

And do we even know that the poison Cersei used was necessarily exactly the same one used before? I thought it was pretty clear that Cersei chose this poison, with Qyburn's help, for this particular purpose, to be a little more drawn out. Qyburn can create monsters from near-dead humans, I'm sure he can modify or create a poison that takes a while to kill someone.

I think it's pretty easy to come up with this stuff in any sweeping epic show (and all the complaints about time jumps and battle logistics and scouting and lack of traveling) - the show could puff up its episodes with more exposition, but it's a conscious choice not to. If they included a 30 second explanation for the 100 things or whatever that aren't explicitly explained, that would suck. And obviously they're going for dramatic effect - Euron is supposed to have a little mystery to him, be a little scary. I'm not sure those scenes work the same if we have some montage about how he built or stole a lot of ships, whether they did they did that before or after his first attack.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Pyser

So what assets/allies do the Lannisters have left?

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The Lannister army. The Gold Cloaks. The Freys (who are now leaderless and can't do anything anyway). That's about it.

Originally Posted by molson

Maybe the rest of the Greyjoys, by default. Maybe Euron could offer his ships to Cersi for her hand in marriage/big cock. (Edit: I'm not sure if there's anyone else Cersi could marry, but finding some decent match would seem to be the typical go-to in situations like this, in this particular universe).

I was just skimming some of the posts from last season and I found this exchange. I'm pretty impressed with myself. I think I have a decent handle on this show. Maybe that's why I'm not bothered by the little things that aren't explained.

[stevew]

Is it at least possible that half of Euron's fleet (including himself) sacked the Dorne bound ships while the other half went to Casterly Rock. That would at least explain some of the fast travel elements. I don't have time to rewatch to see if his ship is actually involved in the sacking of the ones at Casterly Rock.

[stevew]

Hey so I get that the iron bank needs to get paid but what are the actual consequences if Cercei tells them to pound sand. Like what can they do? The show has established no consequences.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by stevew

Hey so I get that the iron bank needs to get paid but what are the actual consequences if Cercei tells them to pound sand. Like what can they do? The show has established no consequences.

They have actually, although I am not sure it is as present in the show as it is in the books. They back the other guys. Like they did with Stannis. Cersei even challenged them to go speak with the Dragon Queen if they won't support her, IIRC.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

As I said a few pages back though, the reference material is 2/3rds of the problem - the story and volume of characters grew so much that IMO there really isn't any other way to close off all the different threads and bring this thing to a conclusion.

I'll agree with you here. Book 4 was like torture to me, especially after books 1-3 were so great. Same thing happened with Robert Jordan in his Wheel of Time series. Great start, then the bloat happened. It took him passing away and having the series finished by a different writer for them to finally go to the ending.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

We don't know how long Euron had to build up a navy (could have been years), and we don't know how much of the fleet was really stolen, we don't know how many of the ships were built and how many were stolen (he is a pirate after after), and we don't even know that his bragging of "1,000" ships is even true. Maybe it's 100.

And naval superiority has never been a problem for the Greyjoys. They've wiped out the Lannister fleet before. (I think that was at least hinted at in the show) It's the land war part they've always sucked at.

And do we even know that the poison Cersei used was necessarily exactly the same one used before? I thought it was pretty clear that Cersei chose this poison, with Qyburn's help, for this particular purpose, to be a little more drawn out. Qyburn can create monsters from near-dead humans, I'm sure he can modify or create a poison that takes a while to kill someone.

I think it's pretty easy to come up with this stuff in any sweeping epic show (and all the complaints about time jumps and battle logistics and scouting and lack of traveling) - the show could puff up its episodes with more exposition, but it's a conscious choice not to. If they included a 30 second explanation for the 100 things or whatever that aren't explicitly explained, that would suck. And obviously they're going for dramatic effect - Euron is supposed to have a little mystery to him, be a little scary. I'm not sure those scenes work the same if we have some montage about how he built or stole a lot of ships, whether they did they did that before or after his first attack.

Well Euron had no ships to follow them with, so he had absolutely no fleet.

And yes, I"m willing to overlook a lot of this stuff in order to enjoy the epic storylines that we're getting, but sometimes it does feel like a bit of a leap of faith is required now, when it wasn't just a bit more than a season ago.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mota

Well Euron had no ships to follow them with, so he had absolutely no fleet.

Euron said that his "best ships" were taken. Why would he say "best" if it was literally "all"? (Edit: And when Theon and Yara were talking with Tyrion in Mereen last season, Tyrion specifically pointed out that Euron's fleet wasn't entirely wiped out by the theft, and Theon agreed and said Euron would build more and offer them all to Daenerys.)

Why follow them? He chose to bide his time, regroup, and strike at a more advantageous time for him, when there were higher stakes available, and that has worked out great for him so far. His goal at the kingsmoot was to rule the Iron Islands and he was obviously the guy at that point. His niece and nephew not being there only strengthened his rule.

And from a story perspective, why should they have had Euron just attack the ships then? If he defeated them and took all the ships back, not much was really accomplished and you lose the Theon and Yara pieces for next season, and if he was repelled, then they can't really use Euron in the final seasons the same way.

It's like last season when people in the thread wanted them skip the Battle of the Bastards (one of the more compelling episodes of the series, IMO), and have Jon scout and wait for the Vale soldiers so he wouldn't have to fight a difficult battle against Ramsey. But that would have been such a anti-climactic end to the Ramsey storyline.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

As I said a few pages back though, the reference material is 2/3rds of the problem - the story and volume of characters grew so much that IMO there really isn't any other way to close off all the different threads and bring this thing to a conclusion.

Of course there is. HBO offered them 10 seasons. The showrunners said no. Hell, they could have even accepted full 10 ep seasons for this year and next year and they could have more smoothly closed some threads.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

It's like last season when people in the thread wanted them skip the Battle of the Bastards (one of the more compelling episodes of the series, IMO), and have Jon scout and wait for the Vale soldiers so he wouldn't have to fight a difficult battle against Ramsey. But that would have been such a anti-climactic end to the Ramsey storyline.

To paraphrase Ross Douthat on Twitter, the show has basically made all the drama based on the stupidity of the characters. I don't think it speaks very highly to say we have a great action episode so who cares if the main character was a complete moron to get there. Why can't we have intelligent characters and great action scenes? But that would require better writing...

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Mota

I'll agree with you here. Book 4 was like torture to me, especially after books 1-3 were so great. Same thing happened with Robert Jordan in his Wheel of Time series. Great start, then the bloat happened. It took him passing away and having the series finished by a different writer for them to finally go to the ending.

I thought the same the first time I read the books and I thought the end of Book 5 was a good return to form. However on a re-read, I discovered something really interesting... Book 4 has suddenly became my 2nd favorite book. I was so enthralled by all the action and surprises and shocks in Book 3 that I was pissed that Book 4 didn't have that. On the re-read though, I realized that slower, more introspective pace of Book 4, esp the showing of the aftermath and horror of war and the maturing of Jamie and Brienne, was brilliant. So, perhaps I'd suggest a re-read may do some good.

[SteveM58]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Of course there is. HBO offered them 10 seasons. The showrunners said no. Hell, they could have even accepted full 10 ep seasons for this year and next year and they could have more smoothly closed some threads.

I'm not up on this part but was wondering why they didn't do 10 episodes at the least for the last 2 seasons. Was there a particular (non-BS "the story only needs 13 more episodes") reason given? Are they just burned out or something?

[Vince, Pt. II]

Just spitballing, but they have to know the criticisms with the series lie pretty much solely at the feet of Martin taking forever to finish it, and they want to make sure they avoid that.

[AnalBumCover]

Originally Posted by SteveM58

I'm not up on this part but was wondering why they didn't do 10 episodes at the least for the last 2 seasons. Was there a particular (non-BS "the story only needs 13 more episodes") reason given? Are they just burned out or something?

I remember them saying some time ago that they only had x-number of storytelling hours left to finish off the story. That number was greater than 10, and fewer than 20.

[Landshark44]

Originally Posted by stevew

Greyscale is a death sentence!

Smash cut to

"Scrape it off with a knife using basic paramedic skills and then coat the guy with some Neosporin derivative"

Smash cut to

"Ok, you're healed and good to go!"

yeah. love the show. great episode... but that was ridiculous.....

[molson]

The cure seems obvious by 21st century earth medical standards but that isn't their world, where the previous attempts to carry out that process resulted in the person giving the treatment to be contaminated as well. Something like penicillin would be considered a crazy miracle treatment 600 years ago, which seems to be roughly where Westeros is technological-progress-wise. It doesn't seem like they had a great understanding of infections and the importance of cleanliness generally (and that's assuming things like bacteria work the same way in their world as ours). Greyscale is like their Leprosy.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by molson

The cure seems obvious by 21st century earth medical standards but that isn't their world, where the previous attempts to carry out that process resulted in the person giving the treatment to be contaminated as well. Something like penicillin would be considered a crazy miracle treatment 600 years ago, which seems to be roughly where Westeros is technological-progress-wise. It doesn't seem like they had a great understanding of infections and the importance of cleanliness generally (and that's assuming things like bacteria work the same way in their world as ours).

I think all they needed was like 2 more lines of throwaway dialogue, how Sam added something to the traditional ointment that was more likely to work than what had previously been done.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

Greyscale is like their Leprosy.

You know how you cure leprosy? You provide two different types of antibiotics for 6 months to 1 year. I mean you could magic it in a fantasy world, but that was never indicated.

I was expecting more of a "this seems to be working, continue on it Sam" rather than a "Oh Look, he's healed! Off you go".

[molson]

I didn't mean that it was literally leprosy and it needed to have the exact same treatment as 2017 earth leprosy. Just that in their world, they might have an understanding of health and medicine and hygiene and infection that is very primitive by 2017 earth standards - and that that understanding is further complicated by the supernatural stuff. (Edit: And who knows how long the process took, I wonder if viewers would be happier if the show included a "several months later"-type graphics before scenes.)

Maybe this scene ends up in the next book and GRRM spends hundreds of pages describing sam's search for the cure in the archives, how he carried it out over weeks, and then the recovery period. That would be a fun read but TV is a very different medium. I'd bet that any screenplay draft that had stuff like that would be heavily chopped up.

[ISiddiqui]

Considering Jorah doesn't have grayscale in the books, I doubt it . And the guy who does isn't likely to be someone to makes his way to Oldtown, I'd imagine.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Of course there is. HBO offered them 10 seasons. The showrunners said no. Hell, they could have even accepted full 10 ep seasons for this year and next year and they could have more smoothly closed some threads.

Well hell, they could've done it in 20 seasons too, and we could have had every single character and chapter from the books (maybe - lets make it 25 seasons). I think the showrunners have better focus than GRRM. GoT doesn't need to be Days of our Lives, better to wrap it up with a proper conclusion in its peak than drag it out and try and wring every last drop out of it.

[JPhillips]

The hints of dragon glass as part of the cure should have been followed through.

[booradley]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Well hell, they could've done it in 20 seasons too, and we could have had every single character and chapter from the books (maybe - lets make it 25 seasons). I think the showrunners have better focus than GRRM. GoT doesn't need to be Days of our Lives, better to wrap it up with a proper conclusion in its peak than drag it out and try and wring every last drop out of it.

I could not disagree more. After all this time spent building relationships, intrigue, etc, now the show seems like an impatient bull rush toward conclusion. "Let's just get this shit over with" is a poor attitude to have toward the fantastic material the writers have at their disposal. I'm a bit ... miffed. There, I said it ...

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by booradley

I could not disagree more. After all this time spent building relationships, intrigue, etc, now the show seems like an impatient bull rush toward conclusion. "Let's just get this shit over with" is a poor attitude to have toward the fantastic material the writers have at their disposal. I'm a bit ... miffed. There, I said it ...

Things is, I don't disagree in essence. It's like a fast forward button has been pressed since the show passed the books. I just lay the blame at the books more than I do the show runners - keeping in mind that originally it was planned as a trilogy, so GRRM himself stretched it beyond the original story he had in mind, which is completely clear when you read books 4 and onwards. Either we get a proper ending to the main arc that has been running since season 1, or we get a never-ending series of side stories until the show gets cancelled or the cast want to go off and do something else.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by booradley

I could not disagree more. After all this time spent building relationships, intrigue, etc, now the show seems like an impatient bull rush toward conclusion. "Let's just get this shit over with" is a poor attitude to have toward the fantastic material the writers have at their disposal. I'm a bit ... miffed. There, I said it ...

Well to be honest, the only "fantastic material" in the last 5+ years have been Wild Cards and a "history" of the Targaryens because the original author has been picking his nose since 2000. They can either finish it based on what they got from them in the beginning, or they can drag it out like The Walking Dead. I started reading Thrones in 2002. I'm more than fine with the show giving me an ending in my lifetime.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

You know how you cure leprosy? You provide two different types of antibiotics for 6 months to 1 year. I mean you could magic it in a fantasy world, but that was never indicated.

I was expecting more of a "this seems to be working, continue on it Sam" rather than a "Oh Look, he's healed! Off you go".

Yeah it was literally the next morning and he was 100% good to go

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Logan

I think all they needed was like 2 more lines of throwaway dialogue, how Sam added something to the traditional ointment that was more likely to work than what had previously been done.

Yeah or if they showed him flaking dragon glass or something. Did he use the dragon glass knife maybe? I didn't think so