Maximum Football???

[spcd]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

I see what you are saying, but they could discuss that after they fix those web pages. In other words, why are they leaving the false refund information up to be seen by future buyers?

They may not necessarily be false. I would imagine DR are running it through legal to check compliance with EU regulations, and regulations within the country Matrix has a depot. I can't remember where (I suspect UK) but a long while ago they said they were setting up a warehousing/mailing office over there which may change the complexion of what they can or can't do.

If there is an EU or UK law requiring refunds, and the sales qualify as contracts made in that jurisdiction (which is where the warehouse may come into it) then they may have to offer refunds. Add to that the wrinkle that this isn't really a sale, but a license, and those might take the form of a whole new set of regulations, and it's not surprising that it might take expert advice to sort it out.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by spcd

They may not necessarily be false. I would imagine DR are running it through legal to check compliance with EU regulations, and regulations within the country Matrix has a depot. I can't remember where (I suspect UK) but a long while ago they said they were setting up a warehousing/mailing office over there which may change the complexion of what they can or can't do.

If there is an EU or UK law requiring refunds, and the sales qualify as contracts made in that jurisdiction (which is where the warehouse may come into it) then they may have to offer refunds. Add to that the wrinkle that this isn't really a sale, but a license, and those might take the form of a whole new set of regulations, and it's not surprising that it might take expert advice to sort it out.

Good point. That was probably what SirFozzie was saying to me but I wasn't getting it. It would make a lot of sense not to change it at this current time if that were the case.

[AlexB]

I think PC games over here can do what Matrix seem to be trying to do and simply stick two fingers up at anyone asking for a refund.

I bought CM5 when it came out, expecting something less substantial than FM, but something that was reasonable. It was the most putrid game I have ever had the misfortune of playing.

But they issued a statement saying that they were working to improve the game, and no refunds would be given. Luckily I managed to swap it for something else at Game (which FWIW I also never played, but that was only because out of principal I wanted to get shot of CM5 without paying any more cash, so took my chances - at least the games I swapped it for were playable)

Unless things have changed in the meantime, it is likely possible for them to sit back and laugh hysterically at anyone asking for their money back.

[Antmeister]

Damn....well it doesn't really matter if you are playing with an odd or even numbered leagues. The scheduling is atrocious. I'm sorry, but there were no beta testers (at least competent ones). Unless, of course, scheduling is not supposed to be a feature.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1093216

[wade moore]

Ant: It is said that you had to explain this to this guy. He has consistently amazed me at how he has his Daivd colered glasses on...

RE: Schedule problems w/ 12 team league - 3/21/2006 9:58:13 AM
Antmeister71 Matrix Trooper Posts: 30 Joined: 3/1/2006 Status: offline	quote: ORIGINAL: Magnum357 What do you mean Marauders? Shaggy, are you complaining that its not producing a balanced schedule? Well the problem is that a team should be playing half their games at home. That doesn't seem to be the case. On top of that, you should at least play each divisional opponent at least once (it should probably be twice with the longer schedule in this case). Scheduling is something that is fundamental to any football game. (in reply to Magnum357)
Report | Post #: 4

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

Wow...Erik is trying to douse every fire he can:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1092942
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1092997

Why do I have a feeling that 3rd party utilities may break the game?

It's pretty sad when one of the "Good" things you have to list about a game is that the 2nd half kickoff worked correctly.

[shaggyra]

Originally Posted by Bee

It's pretty sad when one of the "Good" things you have to list about a game is that the 2nd half kickoff worked correctly.

We take what we can get.

[Johnny93g]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

you see, this is what happens when you offer fans customization.. there has to be something solid underneath.. There has to be a THERE, there!

Oh wait.. just got an email..

Matrixx Gamers is proud to announce their next game.. Maximum Calvinball! The game is infinitely customizeable, with support for any ruleset and scoring system you wish! With options to add any third party add on you wish! Want the no-singing zone to be a trapezoid when x=2? We're sure there will be an add on for that! Want to be able to carry a rule changing flag? Our legion of fans will create a third party add on for that too! Want to just run around screaming like a three year old on a sugar rush? You guessed it, our loyal army of suck..er third party developers will happily code an addon for you! Maximum Calvinball, where the only rule is, you can't have the same rule twice! (Sorry no demo)



Cost $49.99 for digital download (an empty text file that is open for customization), $59.99 for CD (with the aforementioned text file)

I'd buy this in a heartbeat..:P

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Johnny93g

I'd buy this in a heartbeat..:P

Hmmm, better make this $59.99 for digital download and $69.99 for the CD...

CASHCOW!

[jbmagic]

Maximum Football makes Baseball Mogul look like Game of the year.

[Butter]

I still CAN'T BELIEVE THEY RELEASED THIS GAME!

Does no one at Matrix who tested it know what football is supposed to play like? Or even know the basic rules or functionality that one should expect out of a football game? It's unbelievably amusing to watch the fixes that come out on a weekly basis. "Well, the player teleportation bug is gone... and players can now recover fumbles!"

[kcchief19]

Poor bastard. If he weren't charging money and invited a lot of this upon himself with misleading statements and misplaced bravado, I'd feel sorry for the guy.

Originally Posted by Daivd Winter

Hi.

Were these CPU vs CPU games or was there a human player involved?

I'm going to talk to Erik to see if I can get a Public BETA section set up. What you're reporting, while valuable to me, is not really support releated because these are still BETA builds and should be considered as such.

Also, I noticed that on the high resolution stadium, the fans are not rendering properly. I've seen this only on video cards that have 64MB of ram or lower, or they share video memory with onboard memory. Am I correct in assuming this is the case with your system?

David

There are a slew of game-breaking bugs and his only question is whether the game in question was CPU v. CPU or with a human. But the question of fans rendering properly warrants two sentences and a question.

That's how you get a sloppy game where the beer tent is the only thing that works. No sense of priorities.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I still CAN'T BELIEVE THEY RELEASED THIS GAME!

Does no one at Matrix who tested it know what football is supposed to play like? Or even know the basic rules or functionality that one should expect out of a football game? It's unbelievably amusing to watch the fixes that come out on a weekly basis. "Well, the player teleportation bug is gone... and players can now recover fumbles!"

Now they can recover fumbles, yeah but to their defense they used to have that whole "tuck rule" nailed to a T.

And come on, teleporting players. We obviously don't have the foresight to understand just how progressive thisis, teleporting players will be BIG in about 25 years. Bravo to them for looking to the future.

Oh, this also goes for the bi-racial players. Gene pools will have mixed together enough over the next couple generations that humans will begin displaying traits of all races in a very specific manner like white arms and black legs (I guess the "big" question will be if the dividing line is above or below the waist).

[stevew]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

Maximum FootBall makes FootBall Mogul look like Game of the year.

Fixed

[EagleFan]

This is what stands out to me in that quote:

What you're reporting, while valuable to me, is not really support releated because these are still BETA builds and should be considered as such.

It was a fucking 40 dollar purchase. I didn;t pay 40 damn dollars tro be a freaking beta tester. WHEN YOU CHARGE 40 DOLLARS FOR A GAME, YOU BETTER AS HELL DELIVER 40 DOLLARS WORTH OF A GAME.

They have pissed me off beyond belief and I am going to piush the refund issue hard now so they better be ready. If I have to bring up the words class action, than so freaking be it. Fucking dirt bags!!!!!


(I appologize for the language but that quote has pushed me over the edge. I am currently on site supporting the install of a product for my company and I would love to see the fallout if we tried some this approach to support, we would be out of business before your could blink and that is what should happen to this clown. I should have read more of what he had to say and his attitude before I purchased the game instead of just thinking that he may have been taking too much for taking so long to release.)

[panerd]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

This is what stands out to me in that quote:


It was a fucking 40 dollar purchase. I didn;t pay 40 damn dollars tro be a freaking beta tester. WHEN YOU CHARGE 40 DOLLARS FOR A GAME, YOU BETTER AS HELL DELIVER 40 DOLLARS WORTH OF A GAME.

They have pissed me off beyond belief and I am going to piush the refund issue hard now so they better be ready. If I have to bring up the words class action, than so freaking be it. Fucking dirt bags!!!!!


(I appologize for the language but that quote has pushed me over the edge. I am currently on site supporting the install of a product for my company and I would love to see the fallout if we tried some this approach to support, we would be out of business before your could blink and that is what should happen to this clown. I should have read more of what he had to say and his attitude before I purchased the game instead of just thinking that he may have been taking too much for taking so long to release.)

I haven't read this thread in a few weeks, but I get the impression that you purchased the game and are now upset about how it's working? Did you miss the first 3000 posts?

[QuikSand]

It's really amazing how many people are surprised that this game has big problems.

[A-Husker-4-Life]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

It's really amazing how many people are surprised that this game has big problems.

Yeah, I think people now are just buying the game so they can rip Daivd & MF..

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

This is what stands out to me in that quote:


It was a fucking 40 dollar purchase. I didn;t pay 40 damn dollars tro be a freaking beta tester. WHEN YOU CHARGE 40 DOLLARS FOR A GAME, YOU BETTER AS HELL DELIVER 40 DOLLARS WORTH OF A GAME.

I could be wrong, but I think Daivd is just letting users test out the patches prior to releasing them as finished. That's what he's referring to as beta. His post is just asking them to post beta related issues in a different part of the forum than release releated issues. At this point, the more people who are willingly able to test beta patches the better as far as I see it.

Of course, having said that, given the apparent release state, you could make a good argument that the actual release was beta stage or worse.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by A-Husker-4-Life

Yeah, I think people now are just buying the game so they can rip Daivd & MF..

Well, that's what their Media Relations person specifically asked they do.

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by cartman

Well, that's what their Media Relations person specifically asked they do.

yep, except you forgot to mention that you need to get the CD version in order to have a right to bitch... Not the cheapo $39.99 download version but the full $49.99 CD version. Thank you very much...

FM

[cartman]

Ok, it's been a while, but I've been inspired to create another song. This one is to the tune of Softcell's Tainted Love:

Sometimes I feel I've got to
Run a play I've got to
Punt away
From the pain that you drive into the heart of me
The code we share
Seems to go nowhere
And I've lost my fight
I can't toss a sweep and no refund is in sight

CHORUS:
Once I ran or threw (I ran)
Now I'll fumble and score a rouge or two
This tainted code you've given
I give you all a fanboy could give you
Confirm my fears and that's not merely all
Oh...tainted code
Tainted code

Now I know I've got to
Run a play I've got to
Try a chargeback each day
You don't really want any more from me
To make things right
You need someone to show you the light
And you think the code is A-OK
But I'm sorry I don't see it that way

CHORUS
Once I ran or threw (I ran)
Now I'll fumble and score a rouge or two
This tainted code you've given
I give you all a fanboy could give you
Confirmed my fears and that's not merely all
Oh...tainted code
Tainted code

Don't patronize please
I cannot stand the way you tease
With your beta patch and condensending tone
Now I'm going to contact Visa and get a credit, so...
Tainted code, tainted code
Tainted code, tainted code
Compile baby, tainted code
Compile baby, tainted code
Tainted code
Tainted code
Tainted code

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by cartman

Ok, it's been a while, but I've been inspired to create another song. This one is to the tune of Softcell's Tainted Love:

Sometimes I feel I've got to
Run a play I've got to
Punt away
From the pain that you drive into the heart of me
The code we share
Seems to go nowhere
And I've lost my fight
I can't toss a sweep and no refund is in sight

CHORUS:
Once I ran or threw (I ran)
Now I'll fumble and score a rouge or two
This tainted code you've given
I give you all a fanboy could give you
Confirm my fears and that's not merely all
Oh...tainted code
Tainted code

Now I know I've got to
Run a play I've got to
Try a chargeback each day
You don't really want any more from me
To make things right
You need someone to show you the light
And you think the code is A-OK
But I'm sorry I don't see it that way

CHORUS
Once I ran or threw (I ran)
Now I'll fumble and score a rouge or two
This tainted code you've given
I give you all a fanboy could give you
Confirmed my fears and that's not merely all
Oh...tainted code
Tainted code

Don't patronize please
I cannot stand the way you tease
With your beta patch and condensending tone
Now I'm going to contact Visa and get a credit, so...
Tainted code, tainted code
Tainted code, tainted code
Compile baby, tainted code
Compile baby, tainted code
Tainted code
Tainted code
Tainted code

Hopefully Antmeister71 can sing it for all of us.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Alex Fiedler, Matrix Games Staff

The first official update for Maximum-Football has been released and is available from our Games section.

This update includes fixes to the most common issues reported in the initial release and also includes a few gameplay improvements. A full list of changes is included in the v1.095 update installer.

Gameplay improvements such as....

This.

[Toddzilla]

LOL, someone forgot to start the clock.

[panerd]

Calgary is going to be in trouble if the playoff tie breaker comes down to points against. Then again in this game the tiebreaker might be how many drinks your center can chug in the beer tent.

[JPhillips]

That score doesn't really mean anything. You have the option to customize the score at any point. With a couple of clicks the score changes to:

Calgary 19
Oakland 18

Having this ability to change the score to the user's desired outcome makes the game unique.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

Damn....well it doesn't really matter if you are playing with an odd or even numbered leagues. The scheduling is atrocious. I'm sorry, but there were no beta testers (at least competent ones). Unless, of course, scheduling is not supposed to be a feature.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1093216

What jumps out at me here is that it has taken more than two weeks for people to notice this. I don't blame them for not seeing it, but I think it highlights what I think we'll see as the patching of this game goes forward. Right now people are just trying to get the game to play one or two games correctly. Once that happens, they'll move on to things like seasons and such. Once that happens, they'll start messing with careers and online leagues.

As each of these stages is reached, there will be an entire new set of previously undiscovered bugs awaiting. I would also bet that these yet unexplored aspects of the game are in a fairly bad state. When the stock game generates rosters full of all-pros at every position, something has got to be completely off with the career mode.

Somewhere in the next couple of months, things will reach a turning point. Either the dedicated fans and the effort put forth by Erik and David will bring the game to a solid state and purchases will increase, or someone will give up and pull the life support on this baby.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

Somewhere in the next couple of months, things will reach a turning point. Either the dedicated fans and the effort put forth by Erik and David will bring the game to a solid state and purchases will increase, or someone will give up and pull the life support on this baby.

The chances of the former happening before the latter are like the odds of a 16 seed making the sweet 16 in the NCAA basketball tourney.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

That score doesn't really mean anything. You have the option to customize the score at any point. With a couple of clicks the score changes to:

Calgary 19
Oakland 18

Having this ability to change the score to the user's desired outcome makes the game unique.

So, it's a professional wrestling sim?

[Passacaglia]

I'm actually surprised the game can handle 4-digit scores. I guess that's something.

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I'm actually surprised the game can handle 4-digit scores. I guess that's something.

Well it can handle $49.99 fine

[FBPro]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I'm actually surprised the game can handle 4-digit scores. I guess that's something.

Great selling point for realism sake.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

The chances of the former happening before the latter are like the odds of a 16 seed making the sweet 16 in the NCAA basketball tourney.

As poorly as things have gone for them with the game, I do give them credit for their effort at fixing things since release. They have taken the approach that they will do whatever it takes to fix the game, and they have been backing that up with action. I'm not sure that I'd say they are making great progress yet toward the goal of fixing everything and they clearly have a long way to go, but they are making an effort so far and I give that to them.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

Well it can handle $49.99 fine

Wow. jbmagic's even hitting them out of the park in this thread!

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

As poorly as things have gone for them with the game, I do give them credit for their effort at fixing things since release. They have taken the approach that they will do whatever it takes to fix the game, and they have been backing that up with action. I'm not sure that I'd say they are making great progress yet toward the goal of fixing everything and they clearly have a long way to go, but they are making an effort so far and I give that to them.

You know, I have mixed feelings over this. On one hand, I commend Matrix and even David for sticking up for the game and coming out with patches faster than I thought they would.

On the other hand, Matrix supposedly beta tested this game and there are so many glaring issues that I wonder who in the hell was on the beta team. Since Erik played it himself, I don't understand how a number of issues went past him. That still boggles my mind.

Plus, they are going about fixing the game incorretly (in my opinion). They come out with an official patch and then people report errors on it. If there are new errors introduced by the patch, that is a beta patch, not an official one. But now they compounded the situation by introducing new beta patches in which David wants to create a new forum for them. So let me get this straight, you want to give the ability to report errors for both official patches and beta patches in seperate forums. Okay, I guess I am being anal.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Wow. jbmagic's even hitting them out of the park in this thread!

Agreed, that was quite funny and I was surprised that came from jb. Good work sir.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

What jumps out at me here is that it has taken more than two weeks for people to notice this.

I think this also speaks to the style of play of many of the users. The ten guys that seem to be so happy about this game don't seem to care about accurate stats, realistic results, etc. They like that they can make custom uniforms, stadiums and the like.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by panerd

I haven't read this thread in a few weeks, but I get the impression that you purchased the game and are now upset about how it's working? Did you miss the first 3000 posts?

I stayed out of this thread until I saw the game was out, I never had the spare couple hours to read it. Plus, prelease talk by people who have no actual time with the game isn't worth it's weight in salt. As I mentioned after I bought it upon release, I was hoping it could be another FB Pro type of experience. I was obviously wrong.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I stayed out of this thread until I saw the game was out, I never had the spare couple hours to read it. Plus, prelease talk by people who have no actual time with the game isn't worth it's weight in salt. As I mentioned after I bought it upon release, I was hoping it could be another FB Pro type of experience. I was obviously wrong.

My friend, Gary, actually lives close to you. He never reads this board (despite my best attempts to get him to do so.) He also was looking for a FB Pro experience (despite my warnings to him that this probably wasn't going to be it) because he remembers how much fun we had with that 9-10 years ago. Obviously, he was very disappointed as well (and still hasn't gotten a response to his request for a refund.)

[Lorena]

Darn, just when I thought I was up to date... 2 more pages. Stop posting already!

BTW, I noticed the reference thread has over 97K views? Damn, did I like travel through time and miss something? Damn, that's a lot of views!!

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

There are a slew of game-breaking bugs and his only question is whether the game in question was CPU v. CPU or with a human. But the question of fans rendering properly warrants two sentences and a question.

Scheduling, game time, down and distance, that's the stuff THOSE text sim people do.

Its all about the graphics.
It's about one mans heroic attempt to single handedly create a late 1990's era graphical football game engine.

I am saying that only slightly tongue in cheek.
If he did build this from scratch, as it appears, it must have take an enormous amount of effort and determination to bring any game, no matter how bad, to release.

[bbor]

Originally Posted by Dodgerchick

Darn, just when I thought I was up to date... 2 more pages. Stop posting already!

BTW, I noticed the reference thread has over 97K views? Damn, did I like travel through time and miss something? Damn, that's a lot of views!!

Read back a few pages....Skydog explains what happened with the reference thread.

[Lorena]

Originally Posted by bbor

Read back a few pages....Skydog explains what happened with the reference thread.

Oh yeah duh!! Antmeister told me yesterday... I forgot.

I just did a JBMagic.

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

Well it can handle $49.99 fine

Credit where credit is due. Well played!

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

Credit where credit is due. Well played!

Sometimes the best lines come from the posters you would never suspect.

[wishbone]

How many other developers are looking at this release and wondering if they should be involved with Matrix? It looks like Erik would be a good guy to work with and Matrix is not hanging Daivd out to dry but does this release put Matrix in the position of having to reprove themselves to other small developers as well as consumers?

[Antmeister]

Ok, I have to give Erik props and I owe him an apology for my speculation, but it looks like he has rectified the refund situation:

Ok, I have a few key pieces of info to post tonight. The delay in all this is caused by seeking some very specific legal info before creating a new final policy. Getting this info from the DR Europe side continues to take longer than it should.

First, the change to the refund policy on some store servers was indeed made by Digital River during 2005 and indeed we were not notified of the change when it happened. Prior to the change, all store servers said "All Sales are Final". The only servers changed were those in Europe - that includes the UK and European stores. I've seen reports that a different policy was seen by one user once on a US Server. Digital River has found no evidence of that and I have not been able to duplicate this. Aside from some kind of transient network error internal to Digital River, we have no explanation for it at this time.

Second, we have decided that the only fair way to deal with this for customers who may have seen conflicting retail policies is to offer a refund. This offer will extend back to the beginning of March and will expire at the end of March.

We will be posting details on the refund offer tomorrow as well as a more comprehensive site-wide statement on our new policies.

For those who think that a "sales are final" policy is unusual, I urge you to look around and open your eyes. A spot check of our competitors revealed that this is the standard policy and is especially common for digital downloads. This is particularly the case for smalller companies, such as ours. Much as customer satisfaction is important, it is also important for a company to protect its property and its developers. In the case of digital downloads, unlike physical products, it should be self-evident that a refund policy carries with it a very real problem for the company that made the sale in terms of ensuring that the end result is not a product that has been purchased and used without any recompense for its development. In short, read the terms before making a purchase and you may find that a number of your favorite smaller publishers and developers have the same terms as we do, for their own protection.

With that said, we've always issued refunds in the case of a game not functioning and many of our customers have posted regarding our good service and respect. That remains the case and we hope to resolve this error by Digital River in a way that is fair to both our customers and our developers.

Regards,

- Erik

This should be good news for those that were seeking that refund (EagleFan and Gary). Kudos to Erik.

[QuikSand]

Cut. Bait. Run.

[EagleFan]

Good new indeed.