WW XCIV Group Therapy - Game Over!

[Autumn]

You got a block in, that's pretty good for a game with 21 players and no public roles revealed.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

ok, im a shitty BG and i dont like begin the BG lame

I put this into the Univeral Translator. Here's what came out:

I suck as the bodyguard. I don't like being the bodyguard. It's a bad situation if I am the bodyguard.

[Tyrith]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I put this into the Univeral Translator. Here's what came out:

I suck as the bodyguard. I don't like being the bodyguard. It's a bad situation if I am the bodyguard.

I can't stop laughing at this.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I put this into the Univeral Translator. Here's what came out:

I suck as the bodyguard. I don't like being the bodyguard. It's a bad situation if I am the bodyguard.

lol

[Chief Rum]

Oh, and I don't agree, clap. You got a block, and that's always a step up for any BG.

Only issue I had was with your non-reveal on your lynch day when you had to go early. That was the time to get that out there.

[Barkeep49]

I hope people continue to try out new mechanics. I think it makes the game better. It's just that when you try something new sometimes it fails. I applaud Danny for trying something new.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I put this into the Univeral Translator. Here's what came out:

I suck as the bodyguard. I don't like being the bodyguard. It's a bad situation if I am the bodyguard.

i dont know about the bad situation...

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Oh, and I don't agree, clap. You got a block, and that's always a step up for any BG.

Only issue I had was with your non-reveal on your lynch day when you had to go early. That was the time to get that out there.

i got enough out thwre for telle... and i couldnt protect myself, so i had to be kinda circular!

[claphamsa]

oh and danny! i liked it! keep up with the good trying! people always bitch abotu my games.....then again, yours was way better than mine

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Don't knock yourself up, Danny, and don't let it scare you away from running a game.

I did this exact sorta thing last year in the Political game with the bill writing. I mean, thinking about now, holy crap, I was going to let the crazies run the insane asylum? I set myself up to having to try to set parameters around what they could do, which, let's face it, if I was going to do that, I might as well just put the rules in stone and move forward.

It was a fun idea in theory--not so great in practice. This probably falls into that same category.

Incidentally, I also think Pass and Abe put themselves in difficult positions as game GMs with the mechanics they used. I love the ambitious ideas, but it just goes to show how hard it is to nail one of these.

Looking back now, I think of the one great game I feel I ran, The Cubicle, and I thank my lucky stars that one went right.

The Cubicle might have been the most fun I had as a wolf.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

ok, im a shitty BG and i dont like begin the BG lame

Dude, you already tried this pity party on me when you died. I don't know what more you expected than how you did.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I hope people continue to try out new mechanics. I think it makes the game better. It's just that when you try something new sometimes it fails. I applaud Danny for trying something new.

I definitely agree.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Dude, you already tried this pity party on me when you died. I don't know what more you expected than how you did.

pitty party? bleh :P

just dont like being the BG had to try to stay alive, and its less fun when your quiet :P

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Just to make sure, all of the needies love me still right? I didn't reveal anything about my role.. I assume you kill the ones you love the most.. right?

Alan, I am very sorry for killing you so early. I would have never sent in the kill order had I not been 100% sure you were the seer. I guess you could say you were too right too early. Again I am sorry.

[dubb93]

Yes we went BK b/c we thought BK and Abe were lovers.

[Barkeep49]

I stopped following along. What was Abe's role?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Alan, I am very sorry for killing you so early. I would have never sent in the kill order had I not been 100% sure you were the seer. I guess you could say you were too right too early. Again I am sorry.

Oh, I didn't mind the death at all. You all killed me before I could A) Make anyone pissed off at me and B) before I became deathly wrong...

I'm sorry that the game ended up unenjoyable for you guys though. It was fun for me to read along at least.

[Autumn]

He was The Questioner, he could ask about one player during the course of hte game, I think.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I don't think anyone said, so I'll ask again (cuz I am really curious).

I thought it would not be difficult to deduce some sort of relationships between hoops and I that was "Lovers-esque".

Why didn't you guys try to NK one of us?

I was trying to set Hoops up the entire game. It almost worked today. I think it would have been easier to do without all the information that eventually got out there.

[dubb93]

In reference to was sacrifice Telle, Poli and I came to the conclusion early that Telle had been scanned. We used that in thread to support Telle votes and I used it via PMs to find the seer. Martin just made that very difficult and the fact that I honestly believed Telle was a scan pushed me towards alot of kills that didn't make sense and towards people who were not the seer(Pass, Clap, Alan, BK).

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I was trying to set Hoops up the entire game. It almost worked today. I think it would have been easier to do without all the information that eventually got out there.

I would agree with that completely. I'll always put up a fight, so I think there are more likely easier targets in terms of getting a lynch and the win. But I love the fact that you guys went that way and knew you could deliver the coup-de-grace tonight if you ended up lynching someone else.

Autumn having a bag full of clears really helped lessen the margin for the wolves today. Had he been your nightkill last night, instead of Jackal, I think you win in a walk today.

Had Chief Rum been your NK last night I think it would have been interesting. I think I would have been more or less cleared and it would have set up a very different dynamic.

Had I been your NK last night, I think you guys would have been in a strong position today.

[saldana]

i had a lot of fun this game and am very happy that i got back into WW...i dont know if i will be able to get back into it the way i used to be, as i found myself having a hard time keeping up when we were a full house

danny, i agree with autumn that the no reveal mechanic would have been better if we didnt all have roles, especially when some of them had their own winning conditions.

combine that with the fact that those conditions were to get another villager killed and it really made it difficult to play within the rules

my role was the foreigner...the opposite of The Jackals bigot...i was allowed to scan one player each night to find the Bigot and if i did, i won on my own if i lasted longer than him...so essentially, i had to get everyone to kill a villager and then convince them that i was a villager too without saying what my role was...thats pretty damn hard.. so thanks wolves for getting me the big WIN

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I would agree with that completely. I'll always put up a fight, so I think there are more likely easier targets in terms of getting a lynch and the win. But I love the fact that you guys went that way and knew you could deliver the coup-de-grace tonight if you ended up lynching someone else.

Autumn having a bag full of clears really helped lessen the margin for the wolves today. Had he been your nightkill last night, instead of Jackal, I think you win in a walk today.

Had Chief Rum been your NK last night I think it would have been interesting. I think I would have been more or less cleared and it would have set up a very different dynamic.

Had I been your NK last night, I think you guys would have been in a strong position today.

I wanted Autumn but others were putting up a fight and to honest at that point I had lost alot of interest in this and was not willing to fight that hard to convince Poli that Autumn should have went.

I will say if Autumn went it would have amplified his list of suspects. Not sure if it would have done so as much he did today, but it would have.

[hoopsguy]

But I love the fact that you guys went that way and knew you could deliver the coup-de-grace tonight if you ended up lynching someone else.

By this, I mean lynch some other villager of course.

Agreed that once Autumn's role was revealed that it would have helped with gaining trust for me and Chief today although there certainly were plenty of people willing to go after me/Lathum that I think it was something that could have been navigated.

Today was tough, but if Autumn follows me on DT instead of going PF then you guys are smoking cigars for the last four hours today.

[dubb93]

My first order last night:

Dubb kills Autumn

=====================

He is simply too dangerous at this point. We either win or lose the game with this night kill. Either Autumn's attention on us goes away or this amplifies it. We will see.

After a phone call talk with Poli:

We are changing this to Jackal. He is such a random kill.

Dubb kills Jackal

PF:

For some reason, I have a feeling this kill will give me a lot of heat (as he has been on me for seemingly no reason recently) This might not be a bad thing...

Me again:

I'm not sure who else we can kill. An Autumn kill is ultimate high risk/reward, we can't touch CR/Hoops/Lathum. And DT is drawing heat for the deadline non move.

Really it is either Saldana(lots of voting history)/Jackal/Autumn. We could always go with Sal I guess if you want us to. I really don't give a shit at this point. I still say Autumn, but Poli is VERY against an Autumn kill.

And finally Danny:

I've tightened up what is allowed to be said in thread. And the reason I approved one of the Jackal's posts is because it was late, he already revealed most of it and I expected the other player to want to kill, not vouch for him since it was his win condition to get the other player dead. I was a little disappointed when they decided to forget about wanting the other gone.

I'm hoping you guys are still into the game over the last couple days.

That is all the discussion that went into the night kill. Like I said, we were pretty much over it at that point.

[dubb93]

There were several times in here when we had SERIOUS discussions of punting this game. There were times when he had a majority of us wanting to punt this game, but Danny kept talking us back into it. There was simply too much information that got out that had absolutely no business getting out. I was trying to let it slide under the radar, however when Autumn put it all together is when we actually decided to punt it. However, once again Danny talked us back into it, however this last time after we had decided to punt it we never really got back into the game mindset and I think the above posted PMs really reflects that.

[lerriuqs]

Great game Danny even with the roles problem. I enjoyed even if I was mainly following along. I was really impressed with the wolves too.

[dubb93]

It should be noted that Danny's PM was also in reference to a bouncing PM we had going called "Bullshit Reveals" that by the end probably had close to 30 replies.

[dubb93]

I will not post those PM's. There is alot of dirty laundry in them and I don't they need to be aired public. Lets just say there was alot of talk of us quiting, Danny talking us back into it, us bitching, Danny apologizing for the way the game was turning out, and us making demands to once again even out the playing field, which Danny refused. As I said I will not post them b/c they are all very negative and do not need to be aired to the public.

[Passacaglia]

That's messed up -- you guys were doing really well, and it's not like these 'bullshit reveals' gave anyone any amount of trust.

lerriuqs, what was your strategy, anyway?

[lerriuqs]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

That's messed up -- you guys were doing really well, and it's not like these 'bullshit reveals' gave anyone any amount of trust.

lerriuqs, what was your strategy, anyway?

The initial strategy was to create a runaway vote and make the day useless for information. Then when it came down to one to tie - it was to see what the unknown tiebreaker mechanic was (the arbitrator). Since he was dead, it would have created a no lynch and saved the wolves an extra day since everyone would have been out to get me. I was off by about a minute (I didn't realize the hour was the deadline instead of just before). I figured my role was basically to create havoc...so I did.

[lerriuqs]

Also, I didn't find one wolf so I didn't know I was protecting one at the end of the day. Almost found Poli, but he was my second choice on Day 1 (out all day so I put down two).

[Lathum]

Dubb, I understand the frustration about people pushing the limits in regards to their roles but I am confused about why you guys were willing to give up. It seems to me you had a legit shot up until todays lynch.

[lerriuqs]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Dubb, I understand the frustration about people pushing the limits in regards to their roles but I am confused about why you guys were willing to give up. It seems to me you had a legit shot up until todays lynch.

If you don't change your vote, it was over the other way.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by lerriuqs

If you don't change your vote, it was over the other way.

not 100% but close.

Had they come after me I would have survived the night kill

[lerriuqs]

Originally Posted by Lathum

not 100% but close.

Had they come after me I would have survived the night kill

Yeah, anybody else and it was. As dubb posted, they criticize one and force a tie and kill in the night.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Dubb, I understand the frustration about people pushing the limits in regards to their roles but I am confused about why you guys were willing to give up. It seems to me you had a legit shot up until todays lynch.

I personally had put in massive amounts of work behind the scenes and once it was obvious other players were not playing by the rules and all my work was going out the window I lost interest. It was never about winning or losing at that point it was about the fact that we put in massive amounts of work(This was by far my most work intensive wolf game eclipsing the HP game by far in the amount of work I was putting in behind the scenes. If this doesn't mean anything to anyone else I'm sure Saldana will realize what that means.)

All of that work went out the window when the village forgot to play by the rules, the rules that we were binded by up until that point. At that point I sent Danny PMs stating displeasure(to put it mildly) and asking that he either send us every role in the game without names attached so that we can make up roles for ourselves which fit into the theme and conventions he set forth AND more importantly so we don't hint that we have roles that are already in the game. This was a bluff on my part. The second part of that PM is what I had actually expected Danny to do and he never did.

The second part was I asked him if he couldn't do that could he atleast make up a unique role for each one of us that fit the theme/naming conventions and was not a repeat role that is already in the village. When he didn't do that we wanted to punt the game. At that point it was not about winning or losing but having alot of work wasted by the village being unwilling to play by the rules.

As even Danny said, we were punished b/c we didn't cheat the rules.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Lathum

not 100% but close.

Had they come after me I would have survived the night kill

You would have never been the nightkill. It was Saldana had Hoops been lynched. Saldana was the easy target, he had the exact opposite role as Jackal and we knew it. Was a no risk kill.

[Danny]

FWIW Dubb the reason I didn't do that is because of the info collector role of Autumn, he would have known the roles were not real.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

That's messed up -- you guys were doing really well, and it's not like these 'bullshit reveals' gave anyone any amount of trust.

I disagree. Autumn cost us the game today and yesterday. Autumn only got this information due to these "bullshit reveals". If not for that this game ends today or tomorrow in a runaway.

Autumn had the roles yes, but he would have been unable to place that information today if not for Hoops/CR, Lathum, and Jack/Sal's reveals. I will say that out of all of these people Lathum did the best job and really never revealed anything and Lathum was never a topic of conversation when we were discussing reveals with the GM.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Danny

In order, Telle, Hoopsguy, Barkeep and Claphamsa

I can see where the temptation would have arisen to keep this list close to the vest on Day 5.

Hindsight being 20/20, a reveal there would probably have kept Clap from having to pseudo-reveal as BG that day. But that would not have stopped the brutal wolf. The edge would have been having the BG around, provided the wolves didn't decide to take out Clap that night as a cleared villager (instead of me, with added bonus of getting Chief as well).

[MartinD]

Originally Posted by Telle

So he knew about me from Night 1? And let me last that long? Wow.

I was thinking that I could use me knowing that Telle was a wolf without the wolves knowing that I knew to get at least some hints towards finding another wolf.

As I said after being night-killed, I was going to reveal on Day 6 if I had managed to survive Night 5 - had thought about revealing on Day 5, but thought that it was worth taking the chance that I would survive through the night (the reactions both in-game and post-game suggest that this wasn't the worst call - just got unlucky).

The deadlines weren't ideal for me, as the only 'day' deadline I was awake for was last Friday's - meant that I had to put in my scan order before the lynch.

My scans (with backups) were:

Telle (Autumn)
hoopsguy (dubb93)
Passacaglia (The Jackal)
claphamsa (The Jackal)
The Jackal (DaddyTorgo)

It would have been a different game if I'd gone with my second option on Day 2... I also had some thoughts about scanning PackerFanatic late on (for the same reasons that I put a couple of votes on lerriuqs on days 3/4 - to try to get the UTR guy to contribute more).

My thinking early on was to stay out of the Lathum/EagleFan/PurdueBrad shenanigans - not much point in scanning someone when there's a pretty good chance that they're going to get lynched anyway (making the information useless).

I'll admit to being very surprised to find out who the wolves were when Danny sent me the list of roles - thought for sure that Poli was clean (because I knew that Telle was a wolf), and had a few other players ahead of the other wolves as suspects (as you can tell from The Jackal appearing several times on the list above).

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

That's messed up -- you guys were doing really well, and it's not like these 'bullshit reveals' gave anyone any amount of trust.

lerriuqs, what was your strategy, anyway?

i agree to a degree, but i also think that with everyone having some degree of info or role that made it difficult. if it was just slightly different where not everyone had roles I think the wolves would have been totally in control at the point the game was ended. The problem arose from the fact that everyone had roles and we all started poking and prodding at that.

then again, theoretically that could have provided some degree of cover for the wolves too, claiming that they had roles and were villagers.

i can see how it cuts both ways, but really - you wolves played a hell of a game. you were fairly well buried there at the end - i think had the setup been a little different that dubb or poli bring it home.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I personally had put in massive amounts of work behind the scenes and once it was obvious other players were not playing by the rules and all my work was going out the window I lost interest. It was never about winning or losing at that point it was about the fact that we put in massive amounts of work(This was by far my most work intensive wolf game eclipsing the HP game by far in the amount of work I was putting in behind the scenes. If this doesn't mean anything to anyone else I'm sure Saldana will realize what that means.)

All of that work went out the window when the village forgot to play by the rules, the rules that we were binded by up until that point. At that point I sent Danny PMs stating displeasure(to put it mildly) and asking that he either send us every role in the game without names attached so that we can make up roles for ourselves which fit into the theme and conventions he set forth AND more importantly so we don't hint that we have roles that are already in the game. This was a bluff on my part. The second part of that PM is what I had actually expected Danny to do and he never did.

The second part was I asked him if he couldn't do that could he atleast make up a unique role for each one of us that fit the theme/naming conventions and was not a repeat role that is already in the village. When he didn't do that we wanted to punt the game. At that point it was not about winning or losing but having alot of work wasted by the village being unwilling to play by the rules.

As even Danny said, we were punished b/c we didn't cheat the rules.

i never gave out the info on what my role was and people were still curious about it. i understand your wanting danny to provide you guys with cover roles or whatever and i don't think that's unreasonable, but it also wouldn't seem that hard to just be very "i have a role. it doesn't help anymore." type of thing

[DaddyTorgo]

hmm - fwiw my role was that i could scan for the seer + the sympathizer, but i never found either of them before they bought the farm.

[The Jackal]

I friggin told you guys PF was a wolf.

[The Jackal]

[PackerFanatic]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I friggin told you guys PF was a wolf.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I friggin told you guys PF was a wolf.

Aren't you the same guy that voted me three times? I wouldn't have listened to you either!

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Aren't you the same guy that voted me three times? I wouldn't have listened to you either!

Yeah.. I made some dumb votes this game, but my votes for you were more self-preservation in case you were a wolf than actually thinking you were a wolf. I wanted to vote PF all along.