Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

If you grew up on WWE in the 80s, you should still be in shock about how much wrestling is featured in that organization now.

Which is why this wrestling fan (who still points out what it usually says on the marquee) who has been watching various promotions since the early 70's isn't getting all the angst directed their way today.

I went years without watching Raw, over the past couple of years or so it's become at least watchable. Not for 2+ hours a week, but at least in bits & pieces. Both the amount & quality of the in-ring work has improved dramatically over most of their past 30-some years.

People talk like their profits will explode if we get Bryan Danielson v. CM Punk for 60 minutes every week

I'd watch more of it, but the only thing that would implode is their ratings. Followed by their profit margin.

Work rate guys who truly got over have been few & far between. Jericho might be the last one (strictly off the top of my head) & he wasn't really work rate driven at that point.

I'd rather watch it, but as usual, I'm in the minority of the U.S. when it comes to entertainment.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by molson

No, it's called evolving. The same thing record companies are failing horribly at. The same reason Verne Gagne went out of business. And the death of kayfabe actually was a pretty big thing that the companies had to adapt to.

A lot has remained the same, of course - I don't think 2010 and 2011 are so dramatically different than prior years (what were your favorite WWE years, i.e., when were they doing what you think they should be doing now?)

Again, I don't understand what is evolving about saying titles and wins and loses don't matter. If that's the case then what am I watching for? What were the pops at Wrestlemania for? It's fine to evolve, but they seem intent on tearing a mansion to the ground in the hopes of building a mansion, I just don't understand it. You can't say "titles" "belts" "wrestlers" or "wrestling". Are they trying to evolve into a two hour comedy sketch show?

Originally Posted by molson

I didn't mean to express it like that - I've watched everything, I just have my own preferences like everyone else. I can appreciate ROH but not have it be must-see TV for me personally every week. And MMA has really replaced my desire for more serious booking/scripted competition in pro wrestling.

So you're a bigger ROH fan than WWE fan. OK. There's some amount of people like you, but you're not a group that's relevant to the WWE's financial future. (How many John Cena shirts has that group purchased - and how many would they purhcase if Cena's character had more depth)?

I'm not a bigger ROH fan though. I never watched a single HDNet show. I started watching the IPPV's from watching the Steen/Generico preview videos on youtube and they've become a staple.

Also, I've ordered EVERY PPV for the past 13 years, I would say that that's relevant to their financial future if I decide at some point that they arn't worth buying. Which goes to my previous point of the decline in interest of both my friends and I. Now there are fewer of us. At some point it will likely come to a head and the buying will stop all together. I could be using my own personal bubble as a bigger example than it should be, but the declining buyrates certainly seem to reflect my situation.

Originally Posted by molson

If WCW was profitable, Jamie Kelner may still not have wanted it, but it would still be in business today in some capacity. (And even if Kelner did want it - it wasn't going to survive losing $60 million a year). They would have gotten through the down times. And it would have been worth more than the $3 million Vince paid for it.

It was worth more than the $3 million Vince paid for it. It was worth a hell of a lot more........if it had TV. Fuscient was ready to buy it, until it became clear that they had no TV, then it was worthless. What happens if USA decides tomorrow they don't want RAW?

Originally Posted by molson

People left WCW - but people also left WWE since the peak years. Wrestling was fad thing for many, many people. Sure, more people left WCW because it was worse than WWF at that time. (And personally, I think WWE in 2011 is a million times better than WCW in 2000, and I don't think that's some fringe opinion. If that's the comparison you're trying to make, you've completely lost me.)

Of course i'm not saying WWE is worse now than WCW was then. What i'm saying is that the collapses have been seen coming, and rather then right the ship they just went straight ahead thinking it could never end.

Peaks and valleys are not magical things. There are reasons they happen. WWE and WCW peaked in the 90's with cool characters who did things out of the norm and people were attracted to. WWF peaked in the 80's because of Hogan. Territories peaked because of stars like Flair and Rhodes and The Road Warriors etc etc.

I have no idea where those guys are gonna from in this day and age. Can you imagine Steve Austin doing his 3:16 speech and then losing clean on Raw for the next 8 weeks? Would of been a bit counter productive no?

I don't get the mentality that people will pay to see "superstars" as a conglomerate rather than "stars". What "stars" have they built in the past decade. Guys get near the top, get beat for months on end and then when they don't get over the company reacts with this baffled attitude as to why the guy didn't get over. You condition your audience that it doesn't matter if a guy wins or loses and then they don't care if a guy wins or loses. And if you don't care, what exactly are you watching for?

Originally Posted by molson

If you're just saying WWE could be better, and that they could be financially better, nobody, including the WWE, could disagree with that. I'm just not seeing these terrible depths in the product, I don't remember this prior mythical era when they had amazing buyrates based on clean finishes, and taking the titles super-seriously. How many years, out of the last 25 (or however long you've been watching), has the WWE produced the product that you think they should produce? If it's not many years (or any years), I might take a wild guess that you're just not a WWE fan, which is fine. It's like someone saying SNL isn't serious enough.

I'm a wrestling fan. I watch WWE because it's the biggest company in the world with some of the most talented workers in the world and i've been watching it since I was 10 years old (25 years now). Theres still almost always something on raw that I enjoy, theres also at least 5-10 cringe worthy moments on every show and getting worse.

To me, and a lot of people, the best programs the past couple of years have revolved around Michaels, Jericho, Undertakers mania matches etc, and it's no surprise that those feuds have been pretty much booked by the participants themselves, guys who understand what it takes to make a program work.

I'm probably repeating myself at this point and I may well be in the minority, but I don't think I am. I'm just amazed at the attitude that it's ok to alienate lifelong hardcore fans in the pursuit of something better. They seem to think that at some point the end game will be people tuning in to be entertained by something other than wrestling, which they've shown an almost absolute ability to not do well.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Which is why this wrestling fan (who still points out what it usually says on the marquee) who has been watching various promotions since the early 70's isn't getting all the angst directed their way today.

I went years without watching Raw, over the past couple of years or so it's become at least watchable. Not for 2+ hours a week, but at least in bits & pieces. Both the amount & quality of the in-ring work has improved dramatically over most of their past 30-some years.



I'd watch more of it, but the only thing that would implode is their ratings. Followed by their profit margin.

Work rate guys who truly got over have been few & far between. Jericho might be the last one (strictly off the top of my head) & he wasn't really work rate driven at that point.

I'd rather watch it, but as usual, I'm in the minority of the U.S. when it comes to entertainment.

What is with this idea what people wont watch good wrestlers? On Monday night Danielson was getting a hell of a reaction, of course he got beat and that's fine, I totaly understand that they're pushing Sheamus. But this weird idea that if they let Danielson and Punk have a 15 match on TV and let them do their stuff it would lead to a mass exodus is ridiculous.

People have been tuning out in droves during Miz segments, but he's the choosen guy so they'll push him until he does get over. Well, push him as much as never letting a guy get clean wins can be called a push. But they'll put him in that spot and keep him there despite the ratings he doesn't draw until he either does draw them or they decide he's not working, even though they never gave the audience a real reason to care about him.

[RainMaker]

The issue isn't wrestling vs non-wrestling on their shows. It's what they do with the non-wrestling. They seem to have this notion that they can do comedy, which they can't. Maybe 1 in 30 of their segments is remotely entertaining. It's sad they spent a half hour during WM on these and had to rush the Main Event because of it. Because Pee-Wee Herman and Horswaggle rapping were much more important than a better finish to Miz-Cena.

I'd rather see them build up storylines and rivalries better. The entertainment aspect is fine, but I need to be interested in it. I need to want to see how a match turns out. Need to care about whether a character wins or loses. There is rarely any hype to their matches. Half the PPV card is thrown together the week of the event.

And with that comes better direction. Why put the guys from Nexus in the biggest feud of the year last year if they were just going to end up being jobbers? Why build Sheamus up for a year only to turn him into a mid-carder? There just doesn't seem to be a lot of long-term thinking with the company outside of "Cena wins LOL". It feels like they're writing a story and letting someone new write each chapter withouth reading the previous ones.

[Suicane75]

Which is exactly what they're doing. Some raws are rewritten 2-3 times over the course of an afternoon. That was sort of my convoluted point in a roundabout way. They focus with all their heart on these inane memes and talking points that they insist on pounding into your head while the actual product has as much focus as a cross eyed iguana.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I have no idea where those guys are gonna from in this day and age. Can you imagine Steve Austin doing his 3:16 speech and then losing clean on Raw for the next 8 weeks? Would of been a bit counter productive no?

I was thinking about and can see your point, sure if Austin did his speech, and then was pushed back down, that would have been a huge mistake. But you're looking at it selectively. Austin succeeded, but many other guys, in every era, including Austin's, have had pushes that didn't go on indefinitely. That of course includes Austin's ringmaster push, and HHH's original blue blood push - and even austin's initial "stold cold" push - he was losing clean to Savio Vega. And then there's other guys, from every era, who have much fewer derailments on the way to the top (Goldberg, Lesnar, Cena). Everyone can disagree on what guys should be in which group, which guys should be pushed the moon - but I don't think its fair to criticize anytime anyone has any type of lost momentum on the show, there's just no way around that (not saying you're doing that, but it seems like a common sentiment here - anytime anybody outside of Cena/Orton/HHH loses, or even looks bad in a kayfabe sense, it's some kind of big problem.

If someone thinks Sheamus or Evan Bourne are the future of the company and should be pushed to main event storylines and never leave - make that argument specifically about those guys (and about which guys they should push out of the way.) Would it have been better to keep Miz around the midcard and build mania around Cena/Sheamus instead? (Then of course, everyone would be complaining about Miz being pushed back to the midcard). Or should guys stay out of the main event until you're positive they should be in there, and you're positive they'll be there to stay? I can understand that sentiment too, and the WWE definitely used to utilize that way of thinking, but they threw that out the window several years ago. Now, everybody gets at least a brief main event push - some of those guys HAVE to come back down. Maybe they shouldn't all have been up there in the first place so soon? But then you have repetitive main event matchups, and everybody of course complains about that, and that other guys are being "held back."

Pick a year, pick a promotion, any year, any promotion, deals with these balancing issues. Some handle it better than others. But the answer isn't "all of the above", but the response seems to always be complaints about the drawbacks of whatever way they choose to go.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

What is with this idea what people wont watch good wrestlers? On Monday night Danielson was getting a hell of a reaction, of course he got beat and that's fine, I totaly understand that they're pushing Sheamus. But this weird idea that if they let Danielson and Punk have a 15 match on TV and let them do their stuff it would lead to a mass exodus is ridiculous.

I didn't see a mention of 15 minutes, I'm pretty sure the reference prior to my comment was about 60 minutes.

But they'll put him in that spot and keep him there despite the ratings he doesn't draw until he either does draw them or they decide he's not working, even though they never gave the audience a real reason to care about him.

I'd just as soon watch paint dry as see Miz do anything, including wrestle.

That said, they've made him an obnoxious heel best I can tell (matches vs Cena notwithstanding apparently). You can be obnoxious, you can cheat, you can be a bully, you can be uncontrolled chaos, you can be a coward, a sneak, a manipulative bastard, a backstabber, or a turncoat.

Still, in the end, there's only so many ways to make a guy a heel. I'd say the route they've gone with him is probably the one that's most likely to work with him. Whether it works or not, I thought one of the big arguments was that they should try to elevate more people into main event status and/or that pushes should be given time to work. Isn't what's been done with Miz largely satisfying both of those demands?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Somewhat randomly here, but seems like I need to say it, while I can defend some of the big picture decisions coming out of the WWE over the past year or two, I'm in full agreement with how badly they've botched the handling of Miz as a champion.

The old rule in the territories generally was that a new guy/temp guy loses coming in & loses going out. That makes your primary roster look stronger. They've not only failed to do that with Miz but have failed to keep him the hell away from the situation where they weren't willing to do it. And if you aren't willing to do it for your champ, then why is he your champ?

[Suicane75]

It's not inherently bad when a guy loses, people need to win and people need to lose I get that.

The problem is that they book guys to lose, then try to push them and seem baffled at why they arn't over.

I see both sides of the argument. I say Charlie Haas and Shelton Benjamin could of been fucking awesome in WWE kicking peoples asses cutting real promos. You say they couldn't work that style and didn't get over so who cares about them. I say they were never really given the chance, round and round we could go.

I know the company is profitable. I know when i'm here arguing about how they better be careful I look like an old timey get off my lawn kind of disgruntled grumpus. But I fucking love good pro wrestling. And I see WWE slowly killing it in the hopes of becoming something they will never ever be.

[Suicane75]

I think the Miz has a couple of problems. First, people just don't see him as a legitimate champion. He went from jobber to champ in no time flat. People still see him as a second tier guy. In the kayfabe world they know Cena and Orton would kill him. And that's partly because he's had one clean win on ppv or tv since he became champ. That's a level you need to get to legit, once you're there you can do a lot of the other schtick but if you arn't at that level when you get there it's really hard to convince people you should be there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

But I fucking love good pro wrestling. And I see WWE slowly killing it in the hopes of becoming something they will never ever be.

Yet the WWE is considerably closer to being "good pro wrestling" -- which beyond the shoot era was, at its core, entertainment in the first place -- than their next closest "competitor". And yet TNA, to my chagrin, draws better ratings for crap segments with guys who can't wrestle than they drew with guys who could.

ROH's roster is a shell of what it once was & frankly I think their tiny window of opportunity is already closed. Nobody else is even close to having a product that's as good for 52 weeks a year.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I think the Miz has a couple of problems. First, people just don't see him as a legitimate champion. He went from jobber to champ in no time flat. People still see him as a second tier guy. In the kayfabe world they know Cena and Orton would kill him. And that's partly because he's had one clean win on ppv or tv since he became champ. That's a level you need to get to legit, once you're there you can do a lot of the other schtick but if you arn't at that level when you get there it's really hard to convince people you should be there.

But if Miz beats all your main eventers, doesn't that then hurt the main eventers, and make it harder to push them?

It's an classic debate - how much do wins/losses actually impact a guy's overnes/success. But you seem to be saying it would help Miz/Sheamus to win more, but that it would have no effect on your main eventers to lose to them? Maybe the top guys have some overness they could spare, that's possible - but in today's WWE, it doesn't take much "sharing" before a guy is considered buried. I think a lot of people would just like to see them trade victories - personally I HATE it when promotions do that - because then everybody's just treading water, nobody can really look too good or too bad. There's nothing less satisfying than a guy losing on RAW because he's going to win at the PPV. I'm not sure what that accomplishes.

And again, WWE heels rarely win clean, forever, for 50 years. We might not like that, but this isn't some new thing that should be driving you away right now.

[Suicane75]

Come on. We both know there are bullet proof guys there right now. Cena can lose, Orton can lose. A whole slew of midcarders can lose. Miz beat John Morrison CLEAN. That's all he's done since he's been the champ. And it's not about cheating to win the big match, it's about winning the little matches in a way that makes people think you belong.

When a guy like Greg Valentine would whoop up on jobbers every week and then get DQ'd against JYD you hated him, but you didn't doubt he could hang.

Everything we've seen from the Miz screams that just about anyone on the roster could beat him. We hate him but we also know he can't hang.

They built Miz's first run as champ off of

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

And again, WWE heels rarely win clean, forever, for 50 years.

If they're winning clean consistently against credible competition, then they aren't heels. That's not a WWE rule, that's a wrestling rule.

Goes back to what makes Heely McHeel a heel in the first place. Cheating, getting outside help, finding loopholes, etc., is a big part of that. And the cool heel era reduced the power of simply being obnoxious to make a heel.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Come on. We both know there are bullet proof guys there right now. Cena can lose, Orton can lose. A whole slew of midcarders can lose. Miz beat John Morrison CLEAN. That's all he's done since he's been the champ. And it's not about cheating to win the big match, it's about winning the little matches in a way that makes people think you belong.

When a guy like Greg Valentine would whoop up on jobbers every week and then get DQ'd against JYD you hated him, but you didn't doubt he could hang.

Everything we've seen from the Miz screams that just about anyone on the roster could beat him. We hate him but we also know he can't hang.

They built Miz's first run as champ off of

I remember when Cena was was the internet sensation that everybody wanted to be pushed as a new star, I also remember sentiment that he should have been going over the established stars of the day like the Undertaker and Lesnar (when he was getting destroyed by those guys). Same stuff, different year. No matter the year, there are people worried about the lack of "new stars", yet somehow, from those eras, we still got future bullet-proof main eventers like Cena and Orton. (And Cena by the way, challenged for the World title very early on in his career, against Brock Lesnar at a PPV, and had a high-profile fued and ppv match with the undertaker, and then was pushed way down to the midcard for a long time, settling for the U.S. title and feuds with Rene Dupree, before rising up again for good against JBL at mania 21 - but then it was a while after that before he became "bulletproof" - he had to get over to RAW first, certainly.

You mentioned jobbers - I'd love to see more jobber matches. Apparently there's interenal debate about that at the company.

All right, I'm locking myself out of this thread. Not for any negative reason, and not because I don't think you and others aren't making great points - this is always an interesting discussion - it's just that I could talk about this nonsense all day.

[Toddzilla]

Basically, the WWE is making tons of money by scrapping what the last-gernation loved about wrestling and started appleaing to a new audience. Then this audience grows up a little they'll do it again - dump the old audience and grow a new onw - and all the qhile keep raking in the bucks.

Last I checked, a company's bottom line is measured in dollars, not marks.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Basically, the WWE is making tons of money by scrapping what the last-gernation loved about wrestling and started appleaing to a new audience. Then this audience grows up a little they'll do it again - dump the old audience and grow a new onw - and all the qhile keep raking in the bucks.

Last I checked, a company's bottom line is measured in dollars, not marks.

where do you think those dollars come from?

[Mota]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Sounds exactly like the ultra vulnerable Flair run from say 83-92 in NWA/WCW

I think that's what they're trying to do with Miz right now, but they've lost the point of it. If he keeps on surviving by the skin of his teeth and the faces he beats don't care, why should the fans care? If the faces are going crazy because they just BARELY missed winning the title, the fans will feel the same way.

I'm not saying that Miz should be going over clean on every face in the organization, but if he's booked like a joke that can't win, he won't draw. Look at Honky Tonk Man, that guy was a horrible wrestler but he was ANNOYING. And nobody could beat him for the longest time. I think that was an angle done right.

[General Mike]

from the new issue of the Observer:

There was a meeting this past week at Titan Towers where the decision was finalized by Vince McMahon, although it had been pretty much expected for some time, that World Wrestling Entertainment is no more.

The company formerly known as World Wrestling Entertainment, Inc., is now WWE Inc. and the initials no longer stand for anything. It’s basically a continuation of trying to eliminate the words “wrestling” and “wrestler” from the vocabulary thinking it is holding the company back.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Mota

I think that's what they're trying to do with Miz right now, but they've lost the point of it. If he keeps on surviving by the skin of his teeth and the faces he beats don't care, why should the fans care? If the faces are going crazy because they just BARELY missed winning the title, the fans will feel the same way.

I'm not saying that Miz should be going over clean on every face in the organization, but if he's booked like a joke that can't win, he won't draw. Look at Honky Tonk Man, that guy was a horrible wrestler but he was ANNOYING. And nobody could beat him for the longest time. I think that was an angle done right.

Now just surround him with some cronies (NEXUS maybe) let him put over face after face on Raw week after week, always being saved by the 4 whatevers...totally destroy his credibility until the ppv...when he delivers the Ultra EPIC 60 minute broadway, pours blood, defies the odds while getting his azz kicked for 45 minutes only to dominate the last 15 and pull out the W....Come Monday have him come out talk crap about how week superstar XYZ was and how he humilated them. Next let the losing face come out, talk about how great the match was, how he cant believe he screwed up he had Flair...errr MIZ right where he wanted him. Challenge him right then and there to a non title match and beat him soundly.
Miz is still over because of his mia epic PPV match.
Face saves face because he beat him on Raw.
And the new challenger emerges next week.

The only flaw in that plan, I'm not convined Miz can pull off the 60 minute broadway. At least not in any believable fashion.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

The only flaw in that plan, I'm not convined Miz can pull off the 60 minute broadway. At least not in any believable fashion.

I'm not convinced he could pull of a 15 minute Peachtree, much less a 60 minute Broadway.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Mota

Look at Honky Tonk Man, that guy was a horrible wrestler but he was ANNOYING. And nobody could beat him for the longest time. I think that was an angle done right.

I don't watch any more but I used to love it back in the day. I was a huge fan and then lost interest and sort of came back into it during the RAW v Nitro period and then lost interest again for the past I dunno 7 or 8 years but this was what I really liked about it. I loved the HTM's schtick. You would look at the guy and just be annoyed by Jimmy Hart and his whole "greatest intercontinental champion of all time" bit - and the fact that he was IC champ forever made you only want to see him lose more and more each week. Then that allowed the Ultimate Warrior to show up, squash him and begin his mega push. HTM can't top Ted DiBiase as probably my all time favorite heel but he's pretty close.

I felt DiBiase was handled brilliantly. First with all the vignettes showing what an obnoxious ass he was, then because there is no way a guy like him could believably beat a guy like Hogan they have him pay off Andre to do it. Then they set it up so that he faces Savage in the finals of the tournament because it would be more believable that he could beat Savage instead of Hogan - he never does win the belt but sticks around with the main eventers for the rest of the year in tag matches and what not. Then with his mega push over they create his own belt for him and allow him to be relevant that way for awhile, allow him to feud with another legend (Rhodes) and then of course the whole Virgil turning on him bit. Then as his push as a singles wrestler really wound down they built him up as a tag team wrestler with Money Inc and allowed him to be relevant in the tag team championship for another couple years.

And in the end I really wish he could have been world champion because you just knew the only way he could have done it was to do something dirty to get it - you knew he couldn't beat Hogan or Ultimate Warrior or anyone like that but he could get outside help or he could bribe the ref or whatever else and it didn't matter that he physically wasn't capable of beating those guys or that the Million Dollar Dream would never put Hogan down. But the thing of it is if he did win it you knew Hogan would swear revenge and take it back at some point which is sounds like is lacking now with The Miz. That's what made it great - you knew Sgt Slaughter only beat Warrior because of Savage. You could hate those guys and you felt that Hogan, Warrior etc...hated them too and would get back the title somehow.

I'm sure some people look back on that era as lame but to me those were the days when they could tell a good story and a feud would build up for months and when that feud ended it usually ended with the start of a new one (ala Warrior v Slaughter turning to Warrior v Savage). Even the midcard feuds were memorable. Just doesn't seem like that anymore and that's probably why I stopped watching.

[molson]

Originally Posted by General Mike

from the new issue of the Observer:

Here's a longer article from the LA times today about that, and a breakdown on some of the other long-term corporate strategy.

WWE strategy: World Wrestling Entertainment to get a makeover - latimes.com

[RainMaker]

The outsourcing of production is smart. For all their faults, their production values are top notch and in a way trump a lot of major sporting events. I haven't been to a live event in a long time, but just watching on TV it always look like it's at a high level with pyros, lighting, music, etc. Their camera work and video packages are also incredibly strong.

I still don't think it's smart to shift too far away from wrestling. It is their core and they don't do anything else particularly well.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I don't watch any more but I used to love it back in the day. I was a huge fan and then lost interest and sort of came back into it during the RAW v Nitro period and then lost interest again for the past I dunno 7 or 8 years but this was what I really liked about it. I loved the HTM's schtick. You would look at the guy and just be annoyed by Jimmy Hart and his whole "greatest intercontinental champion of all time" bit - and the fact that he was IC champ forever made you only want to see him lose more and more each week. Then that allowed the Ultimate Warrior to show up, squash him and begin his mega push. HTM can't top Ted DiBiase as probably my all time favorite heel but he's pretty close.

I felt DiBiase was handled brilliantly. First with all the vignettes showing what an obnoxious ass he was, then because there is no way a guy like him could believably beat a guy like Hogan they have him pay off Andre to do it. Then they set it up so that he faces Savage in the finals of the tournament because it would be more believable that he could beat Savage instead of Hogan - he never does win the belt but sticks around with the main eventers for the rest of the year in tag matches and what not. Then with his mega push over they create his own belt for him and allow him to be relevant that way for awhile, allow him to feud with another legend (Rhodes) and then of course the whole Virgil turning on him bit. Then as his push as a singles wrestler really wound down they built him up as a tag team wrestler with Money Inc and allowed him to be relevant in the tag team championship for another couple years.

And in the end I really wish he could have been world champion because you just knew the only way he could have done it was to do something dirty to get it - you knew he couldn't beat Hogan or Ultimate Warrior or anyone like that but he could get outside help or he could bribe the ref or whatever else and it didn't matter that he physically wasn't capable of beating those guys or that the Million Dollar Dream would never put Hogan down. But the thing of it is if he did win it you knew Hogan would swear revenge and take it back at some point which is sounds like is lacking now with The Miz. That's what made it great - you knew Sgt Slaughter only beat Warrior because of Savage. You could hate those guys and you felt that Hogan, Warrior etc...hated them too and would get back the title somehow.

I'm sure some people look back on that era as lame but to me those were the days when they could tell a good story and a feud would build up for months and when that feud ended it usually ended with the start of a new one (ala Warrior v Slaughter turning to Warrior v Savage). Even the midcard feuds were memorable. Just doesn't seem like that anymore and that's probably why I stopped watching.

See I think you just nailed all the drama in this thread.
We all remember one era when we were impressionable and it left an imagine on us.
Growing up an hour from Charlotte, I remember Tully Blanchard beating Dusty Rhodes in the parking lot with a baseball bat and breaking his wrist. Then I remember the firecracker to his face...those were HUGE moments to me and the way wrestling "should" be done.

Others remember the "Ultimate Warrior" invading WWWF..I remember going, thats the "Dingo Warrior" and why is he getting so much bigger.

For WWWF it topped out to me when Savage took the bell to Steamboat's throat and we watched Steamboat got through speech therapy lessons.

My point is...yes its lost its innocence. Yes it sucks to everyone who is over 25. But so did those moments.

Just take it for what it is...quit trying to figure out how to make it better. Enjoy what they give you and then go to sleep. I think Raw is a lot better on the backside of a 12 pack myself....

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

My point is...yes its lost its innocence. Yes it sucks to everyone who is over 25. But so did those moments.

Just take it for what it is...quit trying to figure out how to make it better. Enjoy what they give you and then go to sleep. I think Raw is a lot better on the backside of a 12 pack myself....

Thats just excellent stuff right there. Big ups.

[Suicane75]

Apparently Larry Sweeney hung himself last night or this morning. Such a shame. I know it's cliche to say but if he were born 20 years earlier he would of been a megastar. Guy was one of the best promos i've ever seen.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Apparently Larry Sweeney hung himself last night or this morning. Such a shame. I know it's cliche to say but if he were born 20 years earlier he would of been a megastar. Guy was one of the best promos i've ever seen.

Would have made an amazing manager back in the 70s/80s.

[Suicane75]

No doubt.

[DeToxRox]

Sadly the Sweeney thing has been coming for a long time. He posted on a forum I read every so often after he had his breakdown and it was just sad. It did seem like he got it back together a little bit last year but obviously it was a momentary thing.

[Suicane75]

Channeling his inner Roddy Piper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnJoz0yRYHg

Larry Sweeney & The Sharecropper, too much greatness for one interview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axj6mdmMuqU

[JonInMiddleGA]

Aw shit. Rest In Peace.

edit to add: His name is currently the #6 trending topic in the U.S. on Twitter. At some level it seems as though he would have gotten a kick out of that.

[CU Tiger]

Edge done?
Real?

[JonInMiddleGA]

For those who are wondering, the Edge retirement speech was 100% legitimate and real. We were told by a company source earlier this evening that when the major announcement was made tonight, it was not an angle and not storyline.

The story that Edge told about medical tests coming back and showing there was a new issue with his neck and being advised he must retire are true. He was basically handed a mic and told to go out and say goodbye however he wanted.
EDGE RETIRES | PWInsider.com

[RainMaker]

That's sad. He's been one of my favorites over the years. His heel run a few years back was brilliant. Some of the matches he's put on over the years have been gems.

If it's worth anything, I don't think this will effect him as much as others. I've heard interviews he's given over the years and he seems relatively content with not working. Has mentioned that he was very smart with money and saved up. That he was going to be retiring in a few years and would have no problems doing so.

You have to think that there could be a role for him somewhere down the line. He'd make a good announcer, GM, or just random guest.

[Toddzilla]

So last minute, in fact, that they alrady had a Smackdown trailer in the can. You know, just in case Edge has a surprise retirement up his sleeve tonight.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

So last minute, in fact, that they alrady had a Smackdown trailer in the can. You know, just in case Edge has a surprise retirement up his sleeve tonight.

Eh, even a few hours notice is enough to whip up a trailer, as long as you've got enough bodies in production (which I don't think is a problem for Vince).

[RainMaker]

They've always had quick turnaround time on their promos.

[RainMaker]

And I imagine this will force them to move someone over to Smackdown? The Main Event scene is non-existent over there.

[Comey]

I was an Edge fan before then, and I was a bigger one since someone told me I may be connected to him in a very small way. I'm quite sad to see him go out, and for the reasons he's going out. He found this out today. This was on the peripheral, but the results he talked about, he found that out today.

I play baseball once-a-week, on Sundays, and softball a couple of days a week. It's my release; I love it. My girlfriend says she'd have no idea what to do with me if I didn't have that. If I was told that I couldn't play anymore, I'd be beyond devastated. And I only play baseball once a week. I couldn't imagine what he's going through, on that scale. That's his life. It's just unbelievable.

I couldn't imagine him just leaving altogether...I could see him being a mouthpiece for a DiBiase, or a David Hart Smith, give them a great rub. Put him as the manager for a group of young wrestlers...you'd have something there. But I doubt he's even considering that right now, and rightfully so.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I would expect him to eventually return as an announcer of some sort, he actually has a degree in radio broadcasting (or something to that effect).

[molson]

Here's the WWE press release on Edge:

"Less than a week after his successful title defense against Alberto Del Rio at WrestleMania XXVII, World Heavyweight Champion Edge has been forced to retire from in-ring competition due to injury. The unexpected news brings to an end a storied WWE career spanning 13 years and consisting of 11 World Title reigns. (CAREER PHOTOS)

The Rated-R Superstar had been suffering numbness and uncontrollable trembling in his arms and hands. This is not the first time Edge has experienced these symptoms of nueropraxia. An MRI administered at Atlanta Midtown Diagnostic Imaging last Monday was sent to Dr. Joseph Maroon, a renowned neurosurgeon and professor of neurosurgery at The Pittsburgh School of Medicine. After careful examination of the MRI, it was determined that Edge would never be cleared to compete again, and thus, he is forced to retire.

In 2003, Edge underwent a two level spinal fusion of the discs between his C5, C6 and C7 vertebrae. After being cleared to compete, The Rated-R Superstar returned to the ring, resulting in stenosis of the spine, or a narrowing of the spinal column, above and below the fused discs. This narrowing resulted in less and less of the vital fluid needed to protect the spinal cord. Medical professionals cannot clear Edge to compete ever again in WWE since doing so could result in paralysis or even death."

I think he's one of the lucky ones - great career, he probably has some financial means, and being forced out of the ring now is going to help his all-around long-term health (including with concussions), and his lifestyle is probably going to get a lot healthier. I bet there's some peace to leaving when you're told you have NO CHOICE. At least the decision process isn't something he has to struggle with. (Unless Edge pulls a Kurt Angle and finds some other doctor that says he's fine - I'd think that's very unlikely from what we know of Edge v. what we know of Kurt Angle though)

[Toddzilla]

Isn't this the same thing that happened to Arn Anderson?

[molson]

Christian's going to get a big push out of this. He'll probably either win the world title tonight (Smackdown taping), or chase Del Rio for it over the next few months. (Though personally, I'd rather see Miz somehow end up with it and just have one World Champion going forward).

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by molson

Christian's going to get a big push out of this. He'll probably either win the world title tonight (Smackdown taping), or chase Del Rio for it over the next few months. (Though personally, I'd rather see Miz somehow end up with it and just have one World Champion going forward).

Wonder if Edge could take one more bump at the title handoff. Could put huge heat on Del Rio and give Christian a reason to chase him all summer.

[Suicane75]

From the Observer site

Edge was diagnosed with spinal stenosis, which means his spinal cord was narrowing after getting an MRI on 4/4 after WrestleMania. It is the same injury Steve Austin was diagnosed with in 1999, causing him to need neck surgery.

[molson]

Sorry if anybody read my Smackdown spoiler post before I deleted it (I thought I got it fast enough) - I got an important detail wrong.

Actually:

Spoiler

Christian wins battle royal to setup Christian v. Del Rio for title at PPV

[SirFozzie]

That was the first Dusty Finish to benefit the Face I've seen in a decade or more.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

That was the first Dusty Finish to benefit the Face I've seen in a decade or more.

what'd I miss?

[SirFozzie]

Cena-Miz title match. Riley hands the WWE title belt to the Miz, and distracts the referee, Miz hits Cena with the title belt, hides the belt next to Cena, covers Cena for the three count.

As the referee goes to get the belt from the timekeeper (who's supposed to have it), they announce Miz as the winner and the new Champion.

The ref (after asking the timekeeper several times where's the belt?) turns around, sees Miz and Riley with the title belt, and actually, for once in a referee's life, puts two and two together and gets four, and he turns back to the ring announcer and says "I've reversed my decision. The Miz is Disqualified, John Cena is still champion)