FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[thesloppy]

Rumsfeld: Looting is transition to freedom - UPI.com

"While no one condones looting, on the other hand, one can understand the pent-up feelings that may result from decades of repression and people who have had members of their family killed by that regime, for them to be taking their feelings out on that regime," he said. "And I don't think there's anyone in any of those pictures ... (who wouldn't) accept it as part of the price of getting from a repressed regime to freedom."

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Intellectually I get that and understand that it is going to happen.

Morally I think its imperative that we never allow that be acceptable. This has to be a case where you don't get a second chance.

I think if the consequences are swift, universal and punitive - while you would never eliminate - you would certainly reduce bad LEO behavior.

Very well said!

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Curious what some of you guys think is the correct response to stop looters and vandals at this point, and/or what would have prevented it in the first place. "Floyd not being killed" doesn't count - same prerequisites, what would you have done differently then, what would you do now.

I think, in a lot of ways, this is asking the wrong question. I think it also conflates the looting with the lawful protests. But if you fix the protest problem, the looters won't have the cover of the protest to hide in.

All those videos of police doing wrong - deal with them swiftly like the couple of examples in Atlanta. Let people know you're trying to, you know, fix things instead of just paying lip service and making empty gestures on social media.

Do criminal justice reform. Like real reform, not just half-assed measures like "an extra day of racial sensitivity training" that they can just click, click, click through like many of us do with our company training. But serious reductions in local police military hardware, changes to qualified immunity, citizen review boards, DoJ investigations instead of local prosecutors to remove conflict of interest, etc - dammit, I don't know - I'm just starting to learn about this stuff myself. When, yes, as an informed citizen I should know better.

But fix what the protesters are protesting and the looting will have nowhere to hide in a legit protest.

SI

[Arles]

To go with what SI said:

1. Much stiffer penalties for police brutality (not just deaths).
2. Much stiffer penalties for looting.
3. Much less of a police presence during the lawful daytime protests. If you let people be heard (and even interact in a positive way) during the real protest time - perhaps people will be less upset and staying late to give cover for some looters. But having police antagonize media and lawful protesters during the day is very destructive.

[Edward64]

Someone had posted have the cops live the community they police in. A variation of that is to have (1) cops partner up with at least one minority member of the community - a white cop with a black, brown, yellow etc. cop.

Additionally, (2) all cops know that cameras are always on and (3) that cops are responsible for the actions of their partners. So if they see something bad, they are obligated to stop the bad action. And (4) they undergo more sensitivity training or scheduled refreshers.

I am more for second & third chances other than for the most extreme situations as there are often mitigating circumstances.

An article I read said there approx 800K cops in the country. There have been approx 80K bad incidents (my words) in the past 10 years or so of which many of them are repeat offenders. So start with those cops first and get rid of them if warranted.

It definitely won't solve everything but think it would help.

[RainMaker]

Another one. Arrested for speaking and nothing else. pic.twitter.com/h5n4sEcWU5

— Ben Taub (@bentaub91) June 2, 2020

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[RainMaker]

Wow. Have you heard anything about it in the local news? What did he get charged with?

[Edward64]

Good to see some cops are appreciated.

Brooklyn: Crown Heights residents cheer and salute the #NYPD as hundreds of officers in riot gear pass by on Eastern Parkway. pic.twitter.com/P474MdnYue

— NYC Scanner (@NYScanner) June 2, 2020

[Edward64]

Seems like a lawful detention. Looters?

After giving multiple orders to disperse,our officers detained more than 40 people for violating curfew. Reminder the curfew expires at 5 AM. Please stay home. pic.twitter.com/dLhDnfyLCi

— Oakland Police Dept. (@oaklandpoliceca) June 2, 2020

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

People lost posts?

WTF, Skydog? You're a dictator sometimes!

Aw man, I miss this place

SI

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

But fix what the protesters are protesting and the looting will have nowhere to hide in a legit protest.

I agree with a lot of the rest of what you said, but I think it's worth pointing out this will never happen. You could theoretically fix everything relating to police brutality, but people protest over all kinds of things. Sometimes they are issues that are that way for a reason and should be. There will always be large protests from time to time as part of a free society, so I think we should aim more at how to handle them when they do, not how to prevent the unpreventable.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I agree with a lot of the rest of what you said, but I think it's worth pointing out this will never happen. You could theoretically fix everything relating to police brutality, but people protest over all kinds of things. Sometimes they are issues that are that way for a reason and should be. There will always be large protests from time to time as part of a free society, so I think we should aim more at how to handle them when they do, not how to prevent the unpreventable.

And I'm not saying there shouldn't be protests. It's our 1st amendment right, though I wonder some about that these days.

But these are so large and so massive - like nothing any of us who were born in the 70s or 80s have seen - they're bigger than LA or Ferguson or anywhere. They're so big because it was so egregious and for an accumulation of so many great sins for so long. Make some changes, make a sincere attempt at change, and you're going to remove a lot of fuel from the protest fire. There will be a lot of people who say "look, they're trying to fix things so let's give them time". You don't need to eliminate protests - but it would go a long way to making them more manageable.

EDIT: I mean, shit, we're talking about deploying the military on US soil to use on US citizens. That's pretty much through the looking glass, right?

SI

[Edward64]

Here's a pepper spray incident. Wonder how many of these were really precipitated by like incidents. Good thing we have some context in this video

The initial gathering in Des Moines was a peaceful protest of Minneapolis police action that led to the death of black Minnesota resident George Floyd. But at 7:45 p.m., a crowd swarmed Des Moines police officers on the corner of Court Avenue and East Second Street, jumping on patrol cars and throwing water bottles. One officer released pepper spray out of his car, hitting nearby protesters.
:
:
Tensions escalated from there. A riot crew arrived at the intersection at about 7:50 p.m., as protesters chanted, "I can't breathe," shouted expletives at police officers, and knelt in Floyd's honor. Five minutes later, officers in riot gear formed a line and pushed the crowd of about a hundred people. They continued to use pepper spray on the crowd, which included journalists.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/vi...nes/653990000/

[Edward64]

More thugs setting cop car on fire with ... fireworks.

A police car burns in Providence, RI as police observe in the distancepic.twitter.com/H1c1v2PsSO

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) June 2, 2020

[Edward64]

Here's apparently another "peaceful" protest that escalated with pepper spray.

This was a mostly peaceful protest tonight at the Barclays Center then things got tense. Protesters pushing metal barriers and bottles were thrown. Police moved in using peppery spray. Things got bad after that. Pockets of protests also broke out around downtown Brooklyn. pic.twitter.com/yLkIyqXgLI

— Shimon Prokupecz (@ShimonPro) May 30, 2020

[BYU 14]

I'm honestly curious what the point is of posting these back and forths of good cop/bad cop? It's like a social justice dick measuring contest that serves no fucking purpose.

All of us who are vested in whats going on and care about making this a better country with equal opportunities for everyone, are well aware of both sides of the coin, if we are looking at the entirety of the issue. It's all over the news, its all over social media and it's generally being acknowledged by those that have a broad perspective. There are reason for hope and reasons for disdain in this crisis.

I thought this thread was a platform for discussion of the problem and understanding of the cause/effect. Not I'll see your two pepper sprays of journalists and raise you 3 police chiefs holding hands with protesters. It's borderline childish.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I'm honestly curious what the point is of posting these back and forths of good cop/bad cop? It's like a social justice dick measuring contest that serves no fucking purpose.
:
:
It's borderline childish.

You are right. It is absolutely childish to be twitter spamming.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

But these are so large and so massive - like nothing any of us who were born in the 70s or 80s have seen - they're bigger than LA or Ferguson or anywhere. They're so big because it was so egregious and for an accumulation of so many great sins for so long.

Like you say, I think that the size & magnitude of these protests are being amplified by the number of underlying issues, and particularly the pandemic. Aside from the primary, longstanding issues of law enforcement vs. the black community, and all of the directly related justice & law enforcement issues, I think this is probably also serving secondarily as a catch-all protest for lots of unrelated pent-up frustrations for folks on the left side of the spectrum.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Edward64

You are right. It is absolutely childish to be twitter spamming.

I'm not attacking you or anyone else bro, but let's talk. I can start a thread about who's better Queen or the Rolling Stones and then people just post songs. I can listen to the music, tell me why Brian May is a better guitarist than Keith Richards?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I'm not attacking you or anyone else bro, but let's talk. I can start a thread about who's better Queen or the Rolling Stones and then people just post songs. I can listen to the music, tell me why Brian May is a better guitarist than Keith Richards?

Nope I get it. I was reacting to the spamming by spamming myself to try balance things but I'll stop.

Queen is definitely better than Rolling Stones IMO.

[CrimsonFox]

shit going down in seattle

all it took was a pink umbrella to trigger them to do this


This is the moment it all happened : Seattle

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Like you say, I think that the size & magnitude of these protests are being amplified by the number of underlying issues, and particularly the pandemic. Aside from the primary, longstanding issues of law enforcement vs. the black community, and all of the directly related justice & law enforcement issues, I think this is probably also serving secondarily as a catch-all protest for lots of unrelated pent-up frustrations for folks on the left side of the spectrum.

I think how egregious it was shocked people. Many of these cases provide some plausible deniability for those looking for it.

There is probably some catch-all mixed in. Over 100k dead and the economy in shambles. Seems like a lot of people who would not normally protest decided to. Maybe feeling helplless of late sparked action. Really surprised that some of the suburbs here have had their little protests. Never seen that before.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Intellectually I get that and understand that it is going to happen.

Morally I think its imperative that we never allow that be acceptable. This has to be a case where you don't get a second chance.

I think if the consequences are swift, universal and punitive - while you would never eliminate - you would certainly reduce bad LEO behavior.

Definitely. Might add that people that don't change or get replaced but 'behave' is still better than living out their bad instincts. I mean, long term you want more officers to "buy in" and change the makeup of incoming people, but one begets the other. Some things you don't have to like or agree with, you just have to do them.

X % better behaviour might lead to Y % better perception which might lead to Z % better mandate in the community and within the department for those officers that support a more restrained way of doing things to express that. Would also attract a different mix of applicants eventually.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Wow. Have you heard anything about it in the local news? What did he get charged with?

He told Charleston police, 'I am not your enemy.' Then he was handcuffed. | News | postandcourier.com

https://www.facebook.com/gee.jordan.3



Based on our mutual FB friends for him and his mom, odds are high that he's from a solid family. (Well, and it's extremely likely that they're related to or ancestors were owned by my wife's family...or BOTH!)

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

He told Charleston police, 'I am not your enemy.' Then he was handcuffed. | News | postandcourier.com

https://www.facebook.com/gee.jordan.3



Based on our mutual FB friends for him and his mom, odds are high that he's from a solid family. (Well, and it's extremely likely that they're related to or ancestors were owned by my wife's family...or BOTH!)

yeah i saw that one. it was hard to watch. They really can't stand to see anyone proving them wrong...or exposing them...and then they prove their point.

The Black FBI man that was arrested was also eyeopening.

They literally just stop by every black man they see and arrest them on made up information. But I do realize that has been happening for decades...


and yet the rednecks that storm capitals with assult rifles ..nothing happens to them

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

shit going down in seattle

all it took was a pink umbrella to trigger them to do this


This is the moment it all happened : Seattle

This is very reflective of the tension on both sides at this time. Police fatigued and frustrated over the crime they can't stop, protesters still angry and easily agitated when someone in their ranks does something in antagonize the police. An umbrella gets thrust over the barrier, police go grab it, tug of war ensues. Police spray person with umbrella, people behind them throw shit, more spray, others throw shit, more police unleash their tear gas, more projectiles come.

This perfectly captures how volatile the situation is and the pack mentality in full effect on both sides causing a rapid escalation.

This level of frustration/tension is not sustainable or we are going to be looking at an explosion of escalated violence. It is time for civic leaders and community leaders to start escalating the dialog before we go down a very dark path.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm honestly curious what the point is of posting these back and forths of good cop/bad cop? It's like a social justice dick measuring contest that serves no fucking purpose.

I think the narrative for so long has been cops are doing well and trying to be fair and there a few rotten apples that are causing all this issue. Even with the numbers that show black people are targeted and arrested in higher proportion to their population. Stories of the cops abusing their force all around the country gives lie to that accepted belief. And shows it isn't a few rotten apples issue - or most of the orchard is fucking rotten. Stories about widespread police brutality allows for people to recognize this is a systemic issue that requires systemic solutions.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

He told Charleston police, 'I am not your enemy.' Then he was handcuffed. | News | postandcourier.com

https://www.facebook.com/gee.jordan.3



Based on our mutual FB friends for him and his mom, odds are high that he's from a solid family. (Well, and it's extremely likely that they're related to or ancestors were owned by my wife's family...or BOTH!)

This was just heartbreaking to watch and as i mentioned on the original post, I truly expected to see some kind of feel good moment when police approached him.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

(Well, and it's extremely likely that they're related to or ancestors were owned by my wife's family...or BOTH!)

I understand this is pretty personal but the story on how you figured this out sounds fascinating.

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think how egregious it was shocked people. Many of these cases provide some plausible deniability for those looking for it.

There is probably some catch-all mixed in. Over 100k dead and the economy in shambles. Seems like a lot of people who would not normally protest decided to. Maybe feeling helplless of late sparked action. Really surprised that some of the suburbs here have had their little protests. Never seen that before.

Out here in Placer county, northeast of Sacramento, CA, they're protesting. My wife and I found that very interesting...nice and welcomed, but interesting nonetheless.

As for the scale of what's going on, I think it's a combination of the video, the almost giddy look of the cop, the inaction of the other cops, the other incidents in the last couple of months involving Black deaths, the lockdowns, the unemployment, the death tolls, and the inability of the administration to show compassion and unity through any of it. Add in not arresting the killer immediately, still not arresting the other officers, agitators with their own interests, and the rhetoric coming out the the White House, and you get a week long protest that turns into riot and looting.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think the narrative for so long has been cops are doing well and trying to be fair and there a few rotten apples that are causing all this issue. Even with the numbers that show black people are targeted and arrested in higher proportion to their population. Stories of the cops abusing their force all around the country gives lie to that accepted belief. And shows it isn't a few rotten apples issue - or most of the orchard is fucking rotten. Stories about widespread police brutality allows for people to recognize this is a systemic issue that requires systemic solutions.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

I get that and it is being rightfully exposed, just not the outcome I was hoping for here. I mean nobody can deny the issues.

But again, most of the orchard is not rotten. The issue is the culture that needs to be promoted is one of cleansing departments of the thugs that join under the guise of serving. I shared the story of my son earlier in this thread intervening over excessive force of another officer. That does happen, it just needs to be ingrained MUCH deeper than it is. I train BJJ with 4 cops, all real solid guys that I know would not be a party to this shit.

I went on a ride along with him (he is canine and was in a bad area that night) and over the course of 6 calls every single one was met with people either filming him, shouting insults/instigating or all of the above. He made a good point that some people can't process that every shift, day after day without snapping at times. He also said many officers were asking for expanded counseling that was not in the budget to help, while there was also a small minority that looked at getting counseling as weak. He then said what struck home the most with me. "Those are the guys that are going to screw up bad and put us all in a bad light"

Again, that is culture and leadership should be addressing it, not ignoring it because they can't lose officers. Lot's of departments need a complete reset, so we don't lose the good ones like this officer and my son.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I understand this is pretty personal but the story on how you figured this out sounds fascinating.

Not much to it. Two Ravenel brothers came over to the Charleston area from France in the 1600s. Each ended up owning a large plantation, and both plantations were passed down through generations until being sold (at least one of them) in the 1920s. My wife is a direct descendent of one of the two brothers. (Rene' Ravenel.) The overwhelming majority of black people in Charleston named Ravenel today descend from slaves owned by one of the two brothers. And some of them descend from Ravenel-owned slaves that were raped by the owner, thus the "or both."

There's a reason that black people in America have such a wide range of skin tones, and it ain't suntans or coming from different parts of Africa.

[sterlingice]

Sorry it's taken a long time to respond to this but I wanted to try and give it a fair response and that just takes time. I probably won't be able to go point by point going forward - there just aren't enough hours in the day, but I hope it's shown that I'm really trying to debate this in good faith and learn from someone who disagrees with some of my points.

And also, I really hate that we're having all this discussion right now because it's taking away from the main point: one policeman executed a fellow citizen for a passing a counterfeit bill in broad daylight on tape and three of them just stood there. And it's not the first time and it won't be the last time. So, yes, the worries of someone not even living in that world, for all intents and purposes, is diluting that message because the governmental response has been so much horrifically worse.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Thank you for this post. I'm sure you sense escalating posts here from both sides with perceived/actual slights and differences in opinion due to background, experiences etc.

I can honestly tell you I do not think your above sentence. In another post I shared that my daughter wanted to do a daytime BLM march and we supported a modified request. I also said that BLM, fair-or-not, has a messaging problem and its "good" stuff is being overwhelmed by the "bad" stuff.

To me, I can't let "a messaging problem" stop me from doing what I think is right. When weighed against the strength of the message, the significance of the problem - the messaging problem falls behind those. And that's especially, especially true when I /know/ that part of the "messaging problem" is coming from bad actors trying to discredit the message, those who benefit from the system as is or want to make it worse.

If I was out there (and I'm pretty sure we would be if we didn't have a 4 year old at home and no childcare due to COVID). As we discussed before - I don't think it's wrong to bring one but to combine both COVID and potential for escalation that now exists, I personally won't do it, but I won't be faulting someone who does either. Honestly, I think it's a moral failing and an excuse on my part more than it is good judgment.

Honestly I am still with "a few bad apples". But let's define "few". I'm tossing out 95% good and 5% bad. There is no doubt there are abuses for sure.

What I can say about the cop-hating spamming recently are (1) many of the posts are questionable, it doesn't provide context (2) some of the posts are no-question bad cop. The spamming exaggerates the "bad" police because there is no attempt to counterweight the good they do.

I guess it does come down to how many you believe are bad apples. For me, the 5% does not outweigh the other 95% regardless of how its portrayed in the cop-hating spamming.

I believe* I have kept all of my instances to a single post, a single list. BUT IT IS A LONG LIST. And it was a very dark day for me, mentally, as I was compiling that list because I didn't want to believe it. Like I said in the previous post, last week, I absolutely believed "bad apples" (again, I think being white, male, and suburban helps that a lot).

*I'm not be 100% certain - I haven't gone back through all of my posts - but I'm pretty sure I'm not the one you're talking about here

Another question for context. What do you believe is the swag % of bad cops?

Sorry, I'm taking this one out of order because I think it's the next important point.

I try to not pepper with questions as I feel that's not arguing in good faith and more sea lioning. But, going back to George Floyd, how many of those 4 cops fit into your 5%? Is it just Chavin for killing him? Or is it all 4 because the other 3 just watched?

It's looking like the problem is more complex than 95% good apples and 5% bad apples. Even what I'm about to say is oversimplified but I need buckets. So how about we split this into: actively bad cops, passively bad cops (think the posse of the bully who will help but won't be the instigator), neutral cops (they wouldn't do anything bad generally but they'll led bad stuff happen), and good cops (i.e. they would intervene in a bad situation).

How would you split those buckets up and how would you deal with each?

1. Good cops are good cops and we need more- I think we can agree on that.

2. Bad cops are bad cops and should be off the beat and/or in jail. Is that the 5%? That's probably too high. If you mix in the "passively bad cops" with the "bad cops" - I dunno - that 5% sounds reasonable. Basically the actively bad ones, the ones you think of in cop shows who plant evidence and rough up informants and steal drugs and money /and/ their co-conspirators. That's 5%? I hope it's lower than that but I have a feeling that it's in that ballpark or higher, maybe up to 10%, depending on the city.

3. Now we get to the neutral cops. That seems to be the huge problem. Time after time after time in these videos, you see a police officer do something wrong. We all objectively know it's wrong - no matter what context and no matter how much video parsing you want to do. And there's no one there to drag him off the guy he's beating or bench the guy who shoots at a credentialed reporter with pepper spray - they just keep right on going. There needs to be more cops during this saying "knock it off" to the ones doing something wrong. I've never been in law enforcement, but I've been in management and if you let people get away with bad habits then you see the whole team suffer - the star performers burn out, the middle ground sinks because there's nothing to keep them up, and the bottom people are basically running (ruining) a team.* If they can't stop or call out the bad cops then their complicit silence makes them part of the bad cops and those bad cop numbers swell to an unmanageable number.

*Of course, we've seen captains and union heads and even police chiefs try to excuse this away so there's probably no accountability and much more risk for trying to stop this in a lot of cases.

I would appreciate a links to reports (e.g. not just twitter feeds) and hopefully it will provide context - were protesters told to disperse before.

Many, many, many of those links I posted to are local news reports or major national outlets. They aren't 100% as I said some of them seemed very obvious on the surface. And I even separated ones that were less so into their own paragraph with a disclaimer:

And these are the easiest ones I could find in less than an hour of Googling that have really credible sources (like being broadcast live on local news) or obvious videos. To say nothing of the quoted potentially pepper spraying a 10 year old in Seattle or this video of another white shirt (captain?) attacking a street medic in NYC who was armed with... milk or this one of Denver police firing a ton of rounds into this guy's car after he yells at them to stop shooting at him and his pregnant girlfriend or this one in San Antonio of a cop shooting a guy just smoking and recording the cops.

The whole point being - this is not isolated. This is just not a couple of provocateurs with out of context videos. This is a systemic problem in literally dozens of cities across the country. This isn't some organized attempt to discredit the police. Are there a few? I'm sure there are! But, by and large, this looks like a bunch of tired, pissed off people who are appalled at what they're living with and seeing. If you think this is some well funded, well organized attempt by the Dems to - well, shit, I should just stop right there because I said "well organized" and "Dems" in the same sentence. But I was going to make some joke about how I have some Soros bucks to send you.

But the meat of that quote is where I think we're going to differ substantially. People are allowed to lawfully assemble. We might also have some disagreements about what that entails.* But people meeting in parks or, gasp, blocking traffic - at most they should be getting jaywalking tickets. Instead, their own police and their own military are pelting them with paint, rubber bullets, and beating them with batons and shields. In LOTS of those cases, the police are the instigators. They are escalating and that's a significant problem.

And it's a completely asymmetric relationship. As citizens, we have a right to protest and a duty to be lawful. If we aren't, I'm pretty sure I'm going to jail. Police have a MUCH MUCH higher ethical duty. If they do something against the law, they can often get away with it because they /are/ the law. If a police officer is unlawful, I have little faith they are dealt accordingly - statistics have shown that over and over and that's just among the ones who are prosecuted.

*Hell, I think carrying a gun around a statehouse should be illegal as a show of but it's not. I can argue that it's immoral and should be illegal but it's legal.

Yup, no problem in agreeing here. Does the 5% outweigh the 95%. Should there be consideration/forgiveness to some inappropriate, borderline police actions with all things considered?

I go back and forth on this, especially now. On the one hand, we're all at very high levels of stress and we should be able to allow for a mistake to not cost someone their entire life. But it also depends on the level of the mistake and, yes, a lot of it involves situation and judging intent.

However, I think we've also seen that built into the system - again, juries just don't convict police. So I'm not even sure a curve needs to be applied.

And I have no sympathy for a lot of these instances where a situation was otherwise peaceful and the LEO was the aggressor. I have no issues with harsh penalties. A protest in the middle of the day where people were chanting and there were no punches or provocations around? If the police start scuffling there with batons or bikes or pepper spray or worse - they need to be relieved and not allowed to serve until this is over. Because clearly they cannot handle this situation.

I live in suburbia and I am completely opposite from you. I have no fear of police. There are bad ones out there for sure.

Can you help me understand why a while male in decent neighborhood is more afraid of the police and protests & riots? What do you think could happen to you and family?

No riot is making it out to suburban Houston. There's more space than people.

Our suburb even held a prayer vigil Sunday night that attracted /hundreds/ of people. It was solemn and peaceful. It was organized by one of the former city council members who is running for mayor (so, yes, there may have been some political motivations). The Chief of Police spoke as did various religious leaders. Despite it being at 7:30 at night, it was peaceful and a lot of people came away with some semblance of healing, of peace. Yet, for some reason, there was an armored truck and close to a dozen police cars stationed around the neighborhood. For a prayer vigil. And, no, it wasn't just police who were attending the vigil - there were people stationed in a number of those cars not participating. All in case a little prayer vigil in an affluent suburb got out of hand. There were no riots here. There was never any danger of riots here. But there were police ready in case there were and that's scary to me. That's not protection, that's a display of force.

And that's just local police for a suburb of 120K. Now we're talking about sending the US military to go after US citizens on US soil. I'm sure we'll be told that it will only be "limited" and will only be "the bad guys". And, yeah, soldiers are probably better trained than our police forces. BUT NONE OF THAT SHOULD MATTER. We should have just had a full stop at "sending the US military to go after US citizens on US soil". But here we are.

SI

[RainMaker]

I don't know how they can do the early curfews in big cities. There are essential jobs and it is causing some havoc. Chicago shut down trains, buses, and roads. To get downtown you have to essentially bike or walk a weird route if you can.

In New York there are people just trying to get home too. I get the curfew in theory, but seems ill suited for a major city.

Attention Required! | Cloudflare

Originally Posted by rjolley

Out here in Placer county, northeast of Sacramento, CA, they're protesting. My wife and I found that very interesting...nice and welcomed, but interesting nonetheless.

There was one in the suburb of Glenview. Looked like 25 or so people outside the police station with signs. Cops are harmless in the wealthy white suburbs for the most part. Was just weird to see.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Again, that is culture and leadership should be addressing it, not ignoring it because they can't lose officers. Lot's of departments need a complete reset, so we don't lose the good ones like this officer and my son.

Thanks for that insight. I have seen a couple references recently to the police unions being a potential sticky point, for a variety of reasons, what's your take on that?

My closest point of reference to that is a couple friends who work for the post office, who always regale me with tales of the bizarre games that have been concocted to satisfy the weird balance between the union & the administration, and I imagine it's even more absurd in the world of law enforcement. To listen to them, federal unions make it practically impossible to fire an employee for anything but thee MOST egregious infractions....which is fine and dandy when you're talking about mail carriers, but obviously not the standard we want for police.

I've also seen an article or two that referenced a union-chief when talking about leadership, and how those union-chiefs can potentially operate as the defacto head of the department and undermine the will of elected & assigned leaders. Does that ring true to you?

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I'm honestly curious what the point is of posting these back and forths of good cop/bad cop? It's like a social justice dick measuring contest that serves no fucking purpose. .

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think the narrative for so long has been cops are doing well and trying to be fair and there a few rotten apples that are causing all this issue. Even with the numbers that show black people are targeted and arrested in higher proportion to their population. Stories of the cops abusing their force all around the country gives lie to that accepted belief. And shows it isn't a few rotten apples issue - or most of the orchard is fucking rotten. Stories about widespread police brutality allows for people to recognize this is a systemic issue that requires systemic solutions.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I get that and it is being rightfully exposed, just not the outcome I was hoping for here. I mean nobody can deny the issues.

But again, most of the orchard is not rotten. The issue is the culture that needs to be promoted is one of cleansing departments of the thugs that join under the guise of serving. I shared the story of my son earlier in this thread intervening over excessive force of another officer. That does happen, it just needs to be ingrained MUCH deeper than it is. I train BJJ with 4 cops, all real solid guys that I know would not be a party to this shit.

I went on a ride along with him (he is canine and was in a bad area that night) and over the course of 6 calls every single one was met with people either filming him, shouting insults/instigating or all of the above. He made a good point that some people can't process that every shift, day after day without snapping at times. He also said many officers were asking for expanded counseling that was not in the budget to help, while there was also a small minority that looked at getting counseling as weak. He then said what struck home the most with me. "Those are the guys that are going to screw up bad and put us all in a bad light"

Again, that is culture and leadership should be addressing it, not ignoring it because they can't lose officers. Lot's of departments need a complete reset, so we don't lose the good ones like this officer and my son.

I will add to that Chauvin is a poster child of an officer that should not have been on the streets and is a product of the rotten culture in this PD of tolerating a bad officer over being short one man. 19 fucking complaints on his record and he is still patrolling the streets?

Now in context, anything expressed against an officer is filed as this. Another guy I train with has been on the force for 10+ years and has two. One for putting on cuffs too tight and another because he was not friendly enough giving a speeding ticket "He didn't even tell me have a nice day" was a quote from the woman. These both go on his record as complaints (not sure if all departments do this, but in Peoria here they do)

So say he is involved in a shooting, it could come out that the officer has 2 complaints on his record, and they don't say about what, only they are there. now obviously Chauvin's complaints are not all because he didn't smile after writing a ticket, not with that many, just giving more context on this piece.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Thanks for that insight. I have seen a couple references recently to the police unions being a potential sticky point, for a variety of reasons, what's your take on that?

My closest point of reference to that is a couple friends who work for the post office, who always regale me with tales of the bizarre games that have been concocted to satisfy the weird balance between the union & the administration, and I imagine it's even more absurd in the world of law enforcement. To listen to them, federal unions make it practically impossible to fire an employee for anything but thee MOST egregious infractions....which is fine and dandy when you're talking about mail carriers, but obviously not the standard we want for police.

I've also seen an article or two that referenced a union-chief when talking about leadership, and how those union-chiefs can potentially operate as the defacto head of the department and undermine the will of elected & assigned leaders. Does that ring true to you?

I think you have to look at the purpose of unions and that is to protect the officer, so IMO they are in any cases a big part of the problem. And thanks for bring this up, you want to clean up policing start right here with the unions!. Look at this guy and it tells you much of what you need to know.

Anger as local police union chief calls George Floyd a 'violent criminal' | US news | The Guardian

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

shit going down in seattle

all it took was a pink umbrella to trigger them to do this

This is the moment it all happened : Seattle

Originally Posted by BYU 14

This is very reflective of the tension on both sides at this time. Police fatigued and frustrated over the crime they can't stop, protesters still angry and easily agitated when someone in their ranks does something in antagonize the police. An umbrella gets thrust over the barrier, police go grab it, tug of war ensues. Police spray person with umbrella, people behind them throw shit, more spray, others throw shit, more police unleash their tear gas, more projectiles come.

This perfectly captures how volatile the situation is and the pack mentality in full effect on both sides causing a rapid escalation.

This level of frustration/tension is not sustainable or we are going to be looking at an explosion of escalated violence. It is time for civic leaders and community leaders to start escalating the dialog before we go down a very dark path.

I mean, I guess I would ask in this particular instance - why not just give the umbrella back? It would be a total de-escalating event.

Or just take the umbrella away if you think it was done intentionally. That doesn't escalate the incident - it just leaves it at the same temperature.

But then they had to start with the pepper spray.

Suddenly force is used on the protesters and it's going to devolve from there because people feel threatened for their safety. So ultimately we end up with tear gas and flash bangs.

There are ways this doesn't go sideways. I mean, lots of ways - not like pie in the sky magical unicorn ways. Like real, tangible, rational, easy ways.

And, yes, the police have the higher bar to clear here to keep this from escalating BECAUSE THEY'RE THE POLICE. Without even getting into the whole "people on the left side of the barricade pay the salaries of those on the right" part, they're the ones trained, the ones with superior firepower, the ones who swore an oath to protect.

SI

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

.

And, yes, the police have the higher bar to clear here to keep this from escalating BECAUSE THEY'RE THE POLICE. Without even getting into the whole "people on the left side of the barricade pay the salaries of those on the right" part, they're the ones trained, the ones with superior firepower, the ones who swore an oath to protect.

SI

Agree 100% and I guess just trying to rationalize, definitely not excuse. but think about it, you have 100 cops there and it only takes one to react with aggression and all hell breaks loose. The ideal approach is to simply say, please don't thrust that towards us or we will take it. Maybe they did, maybe one officer reacted badly. At the end of the day, this anger is only going to keep building so there is a need to see leadership take action. And not by unleashing the military on our cities.

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There was one in the suburb of Glenview. Looked like 25 or so people outside the police station with signs. Cops are harmless in the wealthy white suburbs for the most part. Was just weird to see.

I take it as showing support for reform. Hopefully, the officers take it as a sign that there is support for that reform and not as being against them. It's really not an either/or topic.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Agree 100% and I guess just trying to rationalize, definitely not excuse. but think about it, you have 100 cops there and it only takes one to react with aggression and all hell breaks loose. The ideal approach is to simply say, please don't thrust that towards us or we will take it. Maybe they did, maybe one officer reacted badly. At the end of the day, this anger is only going to keep building so there is a need to see leadership take action. And not by unleashing the military on our cities.

And I also get that there are 10 or 100 moments not on film in this tense and difficult situation that did not lead to escalation.

But just like there can't be "10" or "100" moments that don't lead to me, I dunno, abusing my child or beating my wife to offset one that did. The moment I do that, I'm a child abuser or wife beater. All those other moments don't matter.

SI

[Drake]

I'd be interested in some other anecdotal feedback on what I'm seeing in my kids' (college-aged) generation about their relationship to and conceptualization of the police as an institution. Minor caveat here: I work for a Big Ten university, so I'm in contact with lots of students in that 18-25 range...so while most of the chatter I here comes from my own kids, I also talk to other kids from other backgrounds in a fairly unguarded environment. That is, they're student hourlies in my office who don't report to me, but who I still work with and around on shared projects.

Anyway.

They don't like the police. They don't trust the police. They think "protect and serve" is an ironic statement. They like to cite a Supreme Court case -- that I've never bothered to research -- that ruled, in essence, that cops have no obligation to help you as a citizen, even if you're in deadly peril. (Edit: if none of this sounds familiar, just read the front page of Reddit. That's lines up with most of what I hear coming out of these kids.)

It looks to me like all of the violence against the black community, these instances of phone cam police brutality, etc. are, in their minds, a continuous flow of data points proving that the police as an institution are corrupt, out of control, and the absolute last place you should expect to receive help. And that's not a "this week in the news" opinion. It's just been highlighted this week.

Which sort of makes me wonder if all of this good cop/bad cop measurement we (i.e., Gen-X and older) attempt to do is moot. Because as this generation starts to amass political power, I suspect that they're going to lean more and more toward just burning down the concept of police forces as they're currently constituted. I'm less clear on what they think they'd replace it with...but the general attitude seems to be that the police are worthless at best and actively harmful to constitutionally guaranteed freedoms at worst.

Which gets me to thinking about my own views about the police...which is largely that I don't think about them. Because I'm a white guy who lives in a rural town and went to high school with most of the officers on our local force. But when I *do* think about cops institutionally, I think about Bruce Willis and Mel Gibson and any number of buddy cop movies that taught me cops are heroes who have to play fast and loose with the rules and frequently shoot bad guys who would do worse things if they weren't stopped.

And I can't for the life of me think of any media that would have similarly turned the opinion of my kids' generation during their formative years.

If law enforcement was my career, I'd feel nervous about the future of my profession based on what I hear from this generation.

[tarcone]

Not sure if this has been posted, but last night in St. Louis a group was driving around and terrorizing the city. They even had water guns full of gasoline they would shoot at the police and then throw fireworks trying to set them on fire.

St. Louis has a 9 pm curfew tonight.

EDIT: It was 200 people driving around burglarizing, looting, and they committed a murder. It went on from 9 pm to 5 am.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I think you have to look at the purpose of unions and that is to protect the officer, so IMO they are in any cases a big part of the problem. And thanks for bring this up, you want to clean up policing start right here with the unions!. Look at this guy and it tells you much of what you need to know.

Anger as local police union chief calls George Floyd a 'violent criminal' | US news | The Guardian

That's the problem. One of New York's union heads doxxed the Mayor's daughter the other day. He typically spends his days tweeting about his disdain for New Yorkers and has openly threatened the Mayor. Philly has a unapologetic white supremacist heading their union. St. Louis has a guy who was kicked off the force for making false statements and has a record of assaulting a woman and threatening elected officials. And recently in Chicago the Fraternal Order of Police was hosting people from white supremacist groups (like Identity Evrope) to their events.

Police chiefs seem to be getting better. They protect their own but also understand the politics. I feel like if you looked back 50 years, there has probably been massive progress made. For fuck sake Philly put up a statue for Frank Rizzo back in the day.

But it still seems pretty bad down the ranks. Makes me wonder if the union has more power over their attitude than any leadership in the ranks.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Drake

They don't like the police. They don't trust the police. They think "protect and serve" is an ironic statement. They like to cite a Supreme Court case -- that I've never bothered to research -- that ruled, in essence, that cops have no obligation to help you as a citizen, even if you're in deadly peril. (Edit: if none of this sounds familiar, just read the front page of Reddit. That's lines up with most of what I hear coming out of these kids.)

I feel like I grew up assuming that the police's primary duty was to protect people. I feel like the more recent generations have grown up thinking that the police's primary duty is to protect property.

...in hindsight, I think they've got it right.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But it still seems pretty bad down the ranks. Makes me wonder if the union has more power over their attitude than any leadership in the ranks.

I am sure there is a huge influence and it leads far too many officers to act in an abusive manner because they think they can do so with impunity.

This is something I will bring up next time I chat with one of the officers I know.

[rjolley]

Saw this on Twitter and think it's a great listen. Uncomfortable Conversations With a Black Man Pt:1

[Drake]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I feel like I grew up assuming that the police's primary duty was to protect people. I feel like the more recent generations have grown up thinking that the police's primary duty is to protect property.

...in hindsight, I think they've got it right.

That is dead on. That's exactly the difference.

Which reminds me that when I was in college, the graffiti refrain you saw everywhere was "Property is Theft"...followed by the "Information wants to be free" crowd.

And when you put it all together, it starts to look like the gradual evolution of a cultural ideology.

Thanks for that insight, thesloppy!

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Drake

Which sort of makes me wonder if all of this good cop/bad cop measurement we (i.e., Gen-X and older) attempt to do is moot. Because as this generation starts to amass political power, I suspect that they're going to lean more and more toward just burning down the concept of police forces as they're currently constituted. I'm less clear on what they think they'd replace it with...but the general attitude seems to be that the police are worthless at best and actively harmful to constitutionally guaranteed freedoms at worst.

This may depend on what the Millenials and Gen Z will actually have. The police are basically about protecting what people have. What do these generations have to be protected? Homes? Businesses? What are the police going to do, protect their debt?