FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[cuervo72]

dola - Eh, thesloppy probably beat me to the punch.

[Arles]

I grew up 10 minutes from E St. Louis. I was in a more "lower middle class" neighborhood that was right next to some poorer areas. I ended up having a lot of close friends who were african american and got treated pretty terribly. I look back and there were situations where I could have been more vocal with other friends/teammates spewing the hate - but I didn't when I was younger. As I got older, I just tended to avoid spending time with the "racist" crew - but I had that luxury since I was white - other kids who happened to black didn't have that option. They had to sit through being talked down to, ridiculed and even physically attacked in many situations. And, if they responded, they were the ones punished. Imagine subjecting a kid to that experience for 10-15 years and then telling him to trust white people (esp white cops).

The more I think about this (and I have a lot lately), the more I think we need to switch the burden of responsibility. To this point, it has been telling the african american population to forget about all the prior issues and treat police officers with respect. Maybe we need to tell police officers to assume every person of color they pull over/stop/question has been completely harassed by white cops their whole life. That they are trying to battle through that, but it is really hard for them to trust us white guys. The hope being that if cops start from that level of understanding, they can always be mentally prepared to try and de-escalate the situation and make themselves seem less threatening.

I'm just throwing out ideas - but there has to be a path out of this that we can all take together. And it has to start with getting in a president who isn't there to dump gasoline on every racial issue that happens.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Drake

I'd be interested in some other anecdotal feedback on what I'm seeing in my kids' (college-aged) generation about their relationship to and conceptualization of the police as an institution. Minor caveat here: I work for a Big Ten university, so I'm in contact with lots of students in that 18-25 range...so while most of the chatter I here comes from my own kids, I also talk to other kids from other backgrounds in a fairly unguarded environment. That is, they're student hourlies in my office who don't report to me, but who I still work with and around on shared projects.

Anyway.

They don't like the police. They don't trust the police. They think "protect and serve" is an ironic statement. They like to cite a Supreme Court case -- that I've never bothered to research -- that ruled, in essence, that cops have no obligation to help you as a citizen, even if you're in deadly peril. (Edit: if none of this sounds familiar, just read the front page of Reddit. That's lines up with most of what I hear coming out of these kids.)

It looks to me like all of the violence against the black community, these instances of phone cam police brutality, etc. are, in their minds, a continuous flow of data points proving that the police as an institution are corrupt, out of control, and the absolute last place you should expect to receive help. And that's not a "this week in the news" opinion. It's just been highlighted this week.

Which sort of makes me wonder if all of this good cop/bad cop measurement we (i.e., Gen-X and older) attempt to do is moot. Because as this generation starts to amass political power, I suspect that they're going to lean more and more toward just burning down the concept of police forces as they're currently constituted. I'm less clear on what they think they'd replace it with...but the general attitude seems to be that the police are worthless at best and actively harmful to constitutionally guaranteed freedoms at worst.

Which gets me to thinking about my own views about the police...which is largely that I don't think about them. Because I'm a white guy who lives in a rural town and went to high school with most of the officers on our local force. But when I *do* think about cops institutionally, I think about Bruce Willis and Mel Gibson and any number of buddy cop movies that taught me cops are heroes who have to play fast and loose with the rules and frequently shoot bad guys who would do worse things if they weren't stopped.

And I can't for the life of me think of any media that would have similarly turned the opinion of my kids' generation during their formative years.

If law enforcement was my career, I'd feel nervous about the future of my profession based on what I hear from this generation.

I have to imagine the age divide might come down to access to the internet. If they had grown up in the 60's and 70's with cell phone cameras on all the time, would their opinion be different? The Rodney King incident in the 90's was so unique because you rarely go to see police brutality in real life. Now there's a montage on YouTube of 200 incidents in just the last few days.

Race and where you grew up probably plays a role. I grew up in a nice white suburb and never had an opinion on police. Cops were mainly just seen writing the occasional traffic citation or directing traffic at the town fair.

Changed a bit when I was in college driving home from Christmas break. State troopers would always pull over out-of-state plates thinking we were drug mules or something and ask to search. The second time I had been pulled over in Wisconsin I just said no to the cop, he'd need a warrant or PC. Got my face slammed into the car and lost my front tooth. That was fun.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I am sure there is a huge influence and it leads far too many officers to act in an abusive manner because they think they can do so with impunity.

This is something I will bring up next time I chat with one of the officers I know.

I'd be interested to hear what they say. I'm guessing there are union heads who just keep their head down and negotiate good deals for the police. But there seem to be a lot in major cities who really incite. When you hear about the Fraternal Order of Police having white supremacist groups to rallies in Chicago, you sort of understand how things like Laquon McDonald happen.

Also this just popped up. Sounds like something a sociopath would say. Even if they are legit shootings, how do you not feel anything?

NEW: Minneapolis Police Union President Bob Kroll said in April that most of his board have been involved in shootings

"There’s been a big influx of PTSD," he said. "But I’ve been involved in three shootings myself, and not a one of them has bothered me." https://t.co/9LnwwMKckU

— aída chávez (@aidachavez) June 2, 2020

[Brian Swartz]

I sometimes wonder what would happen if all police everywhere in the country weren't available (strike, whatever) for a week. I'm not even entirely certain at this point in time it isn't a good idea. We might have gotten to that point.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I sometimes wonder what would happen if all police everywhere in the country weren't available (strike, whatever) for a week. I'm not even entirely certain at this point in time it isn't a good idea. We might have gotten to that point.

cool.

So like the Purge?

Sounds like a great plan. The 2A crowd would relish the opportunity.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Changed a bit when I was in college driving home from Christmas break. State troopers would always pull over out-of-state plates thinking we were drug mules or something and ask to search. The second time I had been pulled over in Wisconsin I just said no to the cop, he'd need a warrant or PC. Got my face slammed into the car and lost my front tooth. That was fun.

This reminds me (albeit to a much lesser degree) that in my early 20s, I blew out a tire on a rural highway on my way home from work late one night. A cop showed up while I'm changing the tire on the side of the road. Spent the entire time searching my car for drugs without ever offering to help me with the tire.

I mean, I didn't need his help to change my tire, but it definitely drove home the point that he was looking for a reason to arrest me (or not) rather than a way to assist me.

But I should also probably say that I'm one of those guys who also gets annoyed when I get legitimately pulled over for a traffic infraction and the cop puts his hand on his gun as he's approaching my vehicle. If he gets to escalate the threat level because he's afraid of a 50 year old IT guy driving a minivan, I should be entitled to do the same. (It's Indiana, buddy. We've all got guns in our cars.)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I sometimes wonder what would happen if all police everywhere in the country weren't available (strike, whatever) for a week. I'm not even entirely certain at this point in time it isn't a good idea. We might have gotten to that point.

My rural perspective (which is definitely NOT the same as an urban perspective) is that I'd have to wonder if anyone would even notice, assuming they didn't announce it beforehand. I've gone my whole life without ever needing to call the police for anything (traffic accidents and similar administrative paperwork notwithstanding).

But that's a rural thing, I suspect. People seem to just get along without needing the police to intervene for the most part.

I'm specifically not saying that I think the police are unnecessary. They do plenty that I don't see, and I'm sure there are segments of my rural community where the police are more of a real presence. But if they took a week off? I don't know that I'd notice that any more than I'd notice if the county highway department all took the week off.*
[*] I can't actually guarantee you that the county highway department hasn't taken the last several years off.

[RainMaker]

Did you have an out of state plate? I drove a shitty Chevy Beretta which had to be some kind of common drug car because I would get pulled over a ton.

[Drake]

I drove a 1976 Ford Pinto. That was probably a crime in itself.

[JPhillips]

This is a great move by CO police organizations.

Colorado's biggest law enforcement organizations - including one of the biggest unions - are asking state lawmakers to pass a law that makes it a crime for police to not intervene if other officers are using unreasonable force. That is a staple of modern policy. pic.twitter.com/vHa4ZY8r77

— Elise Schmelzer (@EliseSchmelzer) June 2, 2020

[RainMaker]

This is Paris. Wow.

OMG. this is going to be in the books. Paris louder than ever #JusticePourAdama #JusticeForGeorgeFloyd #BlackLivesMattter pic.twitter.com/MqvI5fr5wH

— ً (@seokjincaffe) June 2, 2020

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'd be interested to hear what they say. I'm guessing there are union heads who just keep their head down and negotiate good deals for the police. But there seem to be a lot in major cities who really incite. When you hear about the Fraternal Order of Police having white supremacist groups to rallies in Chicago, you sort of understand how things like Laquon McDonald happen.

Also this just popped up. Sounds like something a sociopath would say. Even if they are legit shootings, how do you not feel anything?

NEW: Minneapolis Police Union President Bob Kroll said in April that most of his board have been involved in shootings

"There’s been a big influx of PTSD," he said. "But I’ve been involved in three shootings myself, and not a one of them has bothered me." https://t.co/9LnwwMKckU

— aída chávez (@aidachavez) June 2, 2020

Kroll is a huge reason for that culture. In regards to the friend I spoke of earlier I am going to quote part of a text exchange we just had. I am not going to ask him about unions over text, I'll save that for when I see him next. But this excerpt shows the kind of person and officer he is.

"We have to be better, there is absolutely no excuse why that should have happened to Mr. Floyd. I know he is just one example of many, but as Police Officers we have to be better"

This is not for the media or to say what people want to hear, it is a conversation between two friends, so it gives insight to what I am sure a lot of officers think about this.

[RainMaker]

Don't the rank and file vote in the head of their union? As bad as these people are, aren't they just representatives of what the majority of officers want?

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Don't the rank and file vote in the head of their union? As bad as these people are, aren't they just representatives of what the majority of officers want?

Yes, but that is as much about benefits and pay as it is about being protected. And that last piece extends to much wider areas than being involved in a use of deadly force case, which is not the foremost thought in the minds of most officers. I have to think as much negativity Kroll has brought this will be his last term.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

This is Paris. Wow.

OMG. this is going to be in the books. Paris louder than ever #JusticePourAdama #JusticeForGeorgeFloyd #BlackLivesMattter pic.twitter.com/MqvI5fr5wH

— ً (@seokjincaffe) June 2, 2020

That is crazy and a great example of a peaceful show of force and unity. Well done Paris.

[RainMaker]

Reports of 100k tonight in DC. Hopefully goes smoothly. Also looks like private military working which is insane e.

These guys said they’re with “the federal government.” pic.twitter.com/qOWdj23zJw

— Dan Friedman (@dfriedman33) June 2, 2020

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Reports of 100k tonight in DC. Hopefully goes smoothly. Also looks like private military working which is insane e.

These guys said they’re with “the federal government.” pic.twitter.com/qOWdj23zJw

— Dan Friedman (@dfriedman33) June 2, 2020

Blackwater providing security at a protest. What could possibly go wrong? And there is now a need for military to be there to keep these guys in check.

I really hope I am worried about nothing, but this could get ugly as fuck.

[RainMaker]

Not something you normally see in a liberal democracy.

[spleen1015]

I can see that turning into a huge problem. So many reasons why this is a bad idea.

[spleen1015]

Part of me can't even believe that's real.

[Lathum]

You can bet your ass Trump will be in his bunker tonight, if he is even in the city.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

That is crazy and a great example of a peaceful show of force and unity. Well done Paris.

Isn't this called "Tuesday" in Paris, tho? They have a lot of practice

SI

[RainMaker]

[sterlingice]

Private military and 100K protest? I have a really bad feeling about tonight.

SI

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I feel like I grew up assuming that the police's primary duty was to protect people. I feel like the more recent generations have grown up thinking that the police's primary duty is to protect property.

...in hindsight, I think they've got it right.

Originally Posted by cuervo72

This may depend on what the Millenials and Gen Z will actually have. The police are basically about protecting what people have. What do these generations have to be protected? Homes? Businesses? What are the police going to do, protect their debt?

My Ride Along With The Police Was Nothing You'd Expect It To Be - Dahlia Kurtz | Talk Show Host

What do you think our Winnipeg Police do? Wrong.

Recently, I was invited on a ride along with the police and I witnessed what you don't get to see them do: Help people who don't want to be helped.

So how do you help people when they don't want your help? And why would someone in need, or even in danger, not want your help?

Before I tell you about three key moments you need to know about from that night, I need to tell you about a real life moment that may hold the key to understanding these questions.

I remember the day the doctor told my father he had six months to live ... "if that." Cancer. Nothing could be done. That night he wrote my mom a goodbye letter. It was like my dad already died that very day. And it was like my family died too.
Not long after, my dad had a follow-up appointment with another doctor. Perhaps an even more shocking appointment than the last: He didn't have cancer. The previous doctor made a horrific mistake. My dad was perfectly healthy. The only thing diseased at this point was his mind.

How could he ever trust another doctor again? How could I ever trust another doctor again? My family told this story to many, many people, who told many, many more people. A warning to be vigilant. A warning to protect them.

Years passed, and of course, we all continued to take care of ourselves. Regular doctor visits, routine tests and assessments. And, as is life, we each had medical emergencies. A couple of times I found myself in an emergency room: one very serious situation and one dire that landed me in the operating room. Both times, thankfully, doctors took care of me. My dad also ended up in an OR. He went in for a triple bypass, came out after having a quadruple bypass. The doctors saved his life.

Doctors save lives everyday and you don't hear about it. That's because they're supposed to. We expect them to do their jobs. So when a doctor fails at his or her job, it's a warning: This person is incompetent. This person is dangerous. Doctors are dangerous!

This sort of thinking is understandable. It's a good self-defence mechanism that protects us from the bad. It can also be a self-destructive mechanism that shields us from the good. But the more good we embrace, the more good we create.

Case in point: "Officer Goodheart."

So I had this segment on my talk show called TGPF - Thank Good People Friday, where people would call in and tell us something nice someone did for them that week. Bill calls in to share the story of his young son and a Winnipeg police officer. He explains his son was at an inner-city grocery store and this cop offered to buy him a loaf of bread. Holding back tears, Bill says life can be difficult at times, so this was a very generous and gracious act. I feel for Bill and offer him a couple of tickets to take his son to the Ex. Then someone else calls in - a stranger - and offers Bill $100 so he can enjoy the Ex with his kid to its fullest. Then another stranger calls in and offers WWE tickets for Bill to have another night out. And so the kindness continued to grow - exponentially. All because a cop bought a kid a loaf of bread.

But, it didn't stop there.

I went on a quest to find this anonymous Officer Goodheart - as he was now dubbed - and found him.

But, it didn't stop there.

I also found many goodhearted officers.

Damian, Officer Goodheart - or OGH as we'll call him - invited me for a ride along with the police. Bullet-proof vest and all. Or bullet-proof dress, in my case. At least I didn't have to wear 25 pounds of gear like the other officers. So I could be more spry ... you know, to protect them.

My shift would go from 4:30pm to 2:30am. I'd be paired with two supervisors: Officer Don for the first half of the shift, Officer Cory for the next.

In 2006 Officer Don, who has a wife and children, was shot in the intestines during a drug raid on Jubilee. Doctors gave him a 30 per cent chance of survival. He started policing again as soon as he could.

Last year, Officer Cory, who also has a family, took a tragic call for a woman who was eight-months pregnant. She took her own life and her unborn baby's life. A few weeks later he discovered the remains of six dead babies left in the U-Haul storage locker on McPhillips Street. Only when I asked did he describe the gruesome discovery. As he inspected white, translucent bags with his flashlight, he saw a little hand. He remembered what his children looked like when they were born. Then realized what he had found. Cory was training someone at the time, and was concerned for his trainee.

I'd only be partnered with each man for a few hours, but impressioned by each man for life.

It was a "slow night." The first colder night of the season. It takes awhile for criminals to acclimatize. Hey, they're human too, right?

I'm told usually there are over 200 calls in queue. Tonight there was barely a queue. So this slow night took us to the scenes of johns and sex trade workers, strung-out people, assaults, domestic violence, a suicidal individual, a stabbing, endangered children, people endangering themselves, a fentanyl overdose at a drug house, grand theft auto, a bar fight ... Then there were the incidents we just happened upon.

A slow night.
​
But every single case had one thing in common: the people who needed help from the police didn't want help from the police.

Like Officer Brian told me, "We go help people who don't even want our help."

He wasn't the only one to tell me this. I'm not sure if anyone DIDN'T tell me this. Worse, every victim that night showed me this. Even a woman, screaming in agony, within my reach, on the sidewalk in front of the Yale Hotel downtown, surrounded by police and paramedics - who were trying to stop the bleeding from the stab wounds in her abdomen. It's likely both she and her boyfriend knew who stabbed her, but they still chose not to pursue the case. At least 20 first responders were on scene for her. Police had to let a stolen SUV whisk by them in the interim, because the woman who needed help - but didn't want help - came first.

It would be great if the Yale Hotel could help too. You know, maybe the same way they put high-res cameras over their alcohol and cash register inside, they can put cameras outside the hotel they expect police to protect. Of course, it's not just low-end establishments that ultimately want police protection that could help the police. With its indoor security system, MTS Centre can probably tell you how many kernels of popcorn each patron ingests. Perhaps it could also invest in an outdoor surveillance system, instead of just expecting free surveillance from our already overwhelmed officers (and over-taxed citizens).

I can take you through each incident that night ... I can tell you about men who pay 13-year-old girls $20 for oral sex on our North End streets. I can tell you about 13-year-old girls from well-to-do families who go online and get violated offline like those North End girls. I can tell you about spending an hour at a drug house on King Edward ... multiple police units, fire and ambulance on scene. So many resources for a drug overdose, where vicious dogs seemed trained to keep the authorities at bay. I can tell you about accompanying Child and Family Service workers into a home on Selkirk Avenue at 1:30am, where they suspected children were in danger. One of the CFS workers told me another time she did this someone held a gun to her head, so she felt safer when police could join.

But, again, I need to tell you about three key moments from that night:

Officer Don and I are driving along Jarvis. We see a couple of sex trade workers. He stops the car.

"Ladies, can you hang on for one second please?"

"Are you calling me Peaches?" asks the seemingly strung-out woman. She falters away. I think she's afraid of Don, who gently approaches the sober-looking woman. Actually, I would never have assumed she's a sex trade worker, unless Don had told me.

She's 29, but looks much older. She's wearing black leggings and a grey and white checkered fall jacket, holding a black jacket and a big black purse.

Don asks her the same question he typically leads with, "Are you okay?"

"It's okay. We kinda watch each others' backs," she says referring to her strung-out companion, "Peaches," who's now standing about 100 metres away at the end of the street. She's very pleasant and explains she's been doing this less than a month and is "kinda homeless right now."

Don offers to take her somewhere to find a bed.

"I'm good," she says.

"Stay safe," he replies.

"You too."

It's clear she's scared. It's also clear she's doing the best she can.

A short while later we found ourselves on Manitoba Avenue for a landlord-tenant altercation. OGH and his partner Meghan are already on scene.

Even though these are the steepest stairs I've ever climbed, I wouldn't touch the railing. I was careful not to touch anything in that house. It reeked and was filthy. Meghan and OGH tell me it's actually much cleaner than the last time they were there. The two men involved in the squabble have left. But the tenant left his girlfriend behind. They were in the process of moving and the place is filled with bags and boxes. The girlfriend lights up a cigarette. She says she's three or four months pregnant and asks the officers if they can help her carry the boxes down.

"You know you shouldn't smoke if you're pregnant?" says Officer Meghan.

"But I'm stressed."

"That's worse for the baby. You shouldn't smoke."

"I'm too stressed."

She's doing the best she can.

And so OGH and Meghan help her carry down boxes. Don warns me not to help. "You may get bed bugs or something."

Later, Don and I are driving along Main Street near Chief Peguis Trail. A woman stumbles across the street and nearly gets hit by the car in front of us. Don pulls over.

"Are you okay?" (Typical Don ...)

She says she got kicked out of her family's party. She lives on Powers near Selkirk and wants to get back home. Don offers her a ride. He helps her into the back seat. The cruiser now smells of alcohol. In the short drive, we discover she's raising her grandson. Her son surrendered his custody to her. She thinks her grandson is somewhere on Plessis tonight. She's not sure. I tell her to take a couple Advils when she gets home.

"Something tells me her night isn't over yet," Don says.

I watch her stagger towards her door.

She's doing the best she can.

Later that night, Officer Cory and I attend a call, along with many other first responders. A woman fell on her two-month-old's head, as result of alleged domestic assault from the baby's father. The situation progressed when she went to her van full of children with a noose threatening suicide. Things progressed even further when this case ended up leading to that house on Powers, where Officer Don and I dropped off the drunk grandmother.

Don was right. Her night was far from over.

A few days later, I get a text from OGH. "Here's something you were fortunate not to see ... but I wish you would've seen this that night."

It's a story about three-and-a-half-year-old boy we'll call Sam. He lives in a 40-square-foot living space with his meth-addicted mom, who allegedly turns tricks there for johns and gang members - while Sam is home. The only food in the house was a box of cereal. That night Sam's mom had his dad over. They were bickering.

OGH writes, "And here's what hurts my heart 4 days later and upsets me beyond explanation ... [Sam] was the most charismatic, funny, personable, smart and kind hearted boy I've met on the job in my 11 years. At one point, the 3.5 year old controlled the room of 2 officers and 2 'adult parents' at 1:00am." [sic]

He goes on to tell me that a few days later Sam received a care package with a bunch of food and goodies. (You know who gave it to him.) But while Sam woke up elated to find these treats, that elation quickly turned to tears and cries of devastation. CFS had to remove him from his mother's custody - at least temporarily. The drug dealers hiding in their washroom when OGH arrived on his second visit were just part of the reason. Sam's mom told OGH she'll work towards fixing this situation. And while he sees promise in her cooperation, he also sees this far too often.

And after that night, I didn't need to see this to know it existed.

Yes, there are deeper reasons why these problems exist, but there are also many people who care about the people experiencing these problems. They want to help. The police risk their lives and their family lives to help.

They are doing the best they can.

We're all doing the best we can, but we'd all do better with a little help.

[RainMaker]

lol

At a protest in Hoover now. Police in full military garb have shown up to deal with a handful of high school students with signs. pic.twitter.com/OMss1VzQqD

— Ian Hoppe (@IanHoppe) June 2, 2020

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

But again, most of the orchard is not rotten. The issue is the culture that needs to be promoted is one of cleansing departments of the thugs that join under the guise of serving. I shared the story of my son earlier in this thread intervening over excessive force of another officer. That does happen, it just needs to be ingrained MUCH deeper than it is. I train BJJ with 4 cops, all real solid guys that I know would not be a party to this shit.

I agree. My point was if people don't want to argue it's a systemic thing (and there has been a LOT of pushback that this is a systemic issue), then it has to be that most of the orchard is rotten. Maybe they don't understand what policing being racially broken systematically means - some have said I'm stereotyping cops, when referring to it as a systemic issue actually means I'm saying something closer to the opposite.

As this Washington Post writer puts it:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...RBXxgSqjtcAPV4

Of particular concern to some on the right is the term “systemic racism,” often wrongly interpreted as an accusation that everyone in the system is racist. In fact, systemic racism means almost the opposite. It means that we have systems and institutions that produce racially disparate outcomes, regardless of the intentions of the people who work within them. When you consider that much of the criminal-justice system was built, honed and firmly established during the Jim Crow era — an era almost everyone, conservatives included, will concede rife with racism — this is pretty intuitive. The modern criminal-justice system helped preserve racial order — it kept black people in their place. For much of the early 20th century, in some parts of the country, that was its primary function. That it might retain some of those proclivities today shouldn’t be all that surprising.

In some respects one can say it's like politics. People may go in with good intentions, but the system tends to crush those and make even people who go in for good end up being money hustlers to constantly fund campaigns and then make votes that keep the donor train going.

There are indeed some very rotten apples, but the system also puts a lot of pressure for every one else to stay quiet about them. And puts pressure and training for racially discriminatory policing - 'driving while black' isn't just one or two bad cops, it's a system of training.

[sterlingice]

So Houston had a peaceful 60K protest today (as Floyd is from here and will be buried in my sleepy little suburb, of all places).

Tens of thousands join peaceful march for George Floyd in Houston | khou.com

All the stories up until now have been very positive. No reports of arrests. Very peaceful. No issues at all. The mayor was there, Floyd's family was there, a local House Rep (Lee) was there.

Originally Posted by story

Police officers knelt in a show of solidarity at Discovery Green. Others joined protesters in prayer during the march.

The official march ended at 5. However, of course, this is public property and there is no curfew so no one is obligated to go home and many stayed to protest.

Only, this Tweet went out about 10 minutes ago:

We're getting word that police are kettling and tear gassing protesters at Walker and Travis; get out of the area. Arrests will start as soon as they block everyone in.

Get outta there, #Houston @BLMHOU

— Indivisible Houston (@indivisibleHOU) June 3, 2020

So, yes, now that it's, checks watch, 7:30 and Houston, WHICH HAS NO CURFEW, is about to turn violent because the police have decided to kettle the protesters in so they can beat on them.

SI

[ISiddiqui]

Oh, btw, the question of what do we do next came up. I came across this Twitter thread about research-based solutions to stop police violence which was very interesting:

https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224

Here are the big points (apparently bias training doesn't work because it can be so different depending on the place or who does it):

• More restrictive state and local policies governing police use of force are associated with significantly lower rates of police shootings/killings by police. This is backed by 30+ years of research.
• Demilitarization. Police depts that get more military weapons from the federal govt kill more people.
• Police Union Contracts. Every 4-6 years your police dept’s accountability system is re-negotiated. Purging misconduct records, reinstating fired officers, dept funding- it’s in the contract. Cities with worse contracts have higher police violence rates.
• Predictive policing on the police. Yes, use the technology against them. Data on use of force, complaints & lawsuits can be used to identify officers who most likely to shoot someone next and prevent it from happening.
• Invest in alternatives to police as crime prevention strategies.
• Establish non-police alternatives to 911 calls involving people with mental illness.
• Resource the Department of Justice (after the current president is voted out) to initiate more investigations of police departments. Departments that receive federal intervention have 25-30% fewer police shootings than those that do not.
• Know change is not only possible, it’s already happened in some places.

All of these points have a link attached to them.

[JPhillips]

Could be DEA. Barr gave them new authority this weekend.

DOJ just gave the DEA the authority to enforce federal law beyond its statutory mandate. https://t.co/orUIrE8Jun pic.twitter.com/vSslF7rN3o

— Eric Geller (@ericgeller) June 2, 2020

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by rjolley

Out here in Placer county, northeast of Sacramento, CA, they're protesting. My wife and I found that very interesting...nice and welcomed, but interesting nonetheless.

As for the scale of what's going on, I think it's a combination of the video, the almost giddy look of the cop, the inaction of the other cops, the other incidents in the last couple of months involving Black deaths, the lockdowns, the unemployment, the death tolls, and the inability of the administration to show compassion and unity through any of it. Add in not arresting the killer immediately, still not arresting the other officers, agitators with their own interests, and the rhetoric coming out the the White House, and you get a week long protest that turns into riot and looting.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but I have had enough conversations over the last week to feel confident in saying that the protests during the previous five weeks or so has also had an effect on the scale of protest over the last week. For all the derisive jokes about people protesting about haircuts and invoking their rights for gyms to be open up, those protests for the reopening of the country and the arguments surrounding them have come up in almost every conversation about the current protest. I am not blaming the previous protests for what is going on now. I do think it served as a reminder for many that they don't necessarily have to wait for November to have their voices heard.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

I grew up 10 minutes from E St. Louis. I was in a more "lower middle class" neighborhood that was right next to some poorer areas. I ended up having a lot of close friends who were african american and got treated pretty terribly. I look back and there were situations where I could have been more vocal with other friends/teammates spewing the hate - but I didn't when I was younger. As I got older, I just tended to avoid spending time with the "racist" crew - but I had that luxury since I was white - other kids who happened to black didn't have that option. They had to sit through being talked down to, ridiculed and even physically attacked in many situations. And, if they responded, they were the ones punished. Imagine subjecting a kid to that experience for 10-15 years and then telling him to trust white people (esp white cops).

The more I think about this (and I have a lot lately), the more I think we need to switch the burden of responsibility. To this point, it has been telling the african american population to forget about all the prior issues and treat police officers with respect. Maybe we need to tell police officers to assume every person of color they pull over/stop/question has been completely harassed by white cops their whole life. That they are trying to battle through that, but it is really hard for them to trust us white guys. The hope being that if cops start from that level of understanding, they can always be mentally prepared to try and de-escalate the situation and make themselves seem less threatening.

I'm just throwing out ideas - but there has to be a path out of this that we can all take together. And it has to start with getting in a president who isn't there to dump gasoline on every racial issue that happens.

This is a beautiful post from top to bottom. African-Americans are already so damned afraid of the police. Every black kid gets the talk from their parents about how to respond to a police officer. A great many black males get a little flustered (and completely change their demeanor and speaking) when around the cops. I think an acknowledgement that you may be scaring this person to death by just pulling them over would go a long way. Community based policing and having people live in the areas they police I think may help (it's possible the person is a neighbor then).

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

So, yes, now that it's, checks watch, 7:30 and Houston, WHICH HAS NO CURFEW, is about to turn violent because the police have decided to kettle the protesters in so they can beat on them.

SI

This is INSANE! These people have engaged in absolutely no property violence, there is no curfew. These sort of things just inflame people. It's like the police in Houston want to have a riot (maybe they do... it would 'justify' extra force)

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Could be DEA. Barr gave them new authority this weekend.

DOJ just gave the DEA the authority to enforce federal law beyond its statutory mandate. https://t.co/orUIrE8Jun pic.twitter.com/vSslF7rN3o

— Eric Geller (@ericgeller) June 2, 2020

And you may know Timmy Shea from some of his greatest hits, which include "reducing Roger Stone's sentence" and "dropping charges against Michael Flynn".

He's also making this request as an Acting DEA lead and he only got the gig because Barr had to hook him up since his time as a US Attorney was up after the Stone and Flynn cases. Of course he was an Acting US Attorney as well.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This is a great move by CO police organizations.

Colorado's biggest law enforcement organizations - including one of the biggest unions - are asking state lawmakers to pass a law that makes it a crime for police to not intervene if other officers are using unreasonable force. That is a staple of modern policy. pic.twitter.com/vHa4ZY8r77

— Elise Schmelzer (@EliseSchmelzer) June 2, 2020

A good sign - a concreate step to try to change the culture and the system. Good for CO police orgs!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by story

Police officers knelt in a show of solidarity at Discovery Green. Others joined protesters in prayer during the march

Originally Posted by sterlingice

We're getting word that police are kettling and tear gassing protesters at Walker and Travis; get out of the area. Arrests will start as soon as they block everyone in.

Get outta there, #Houston @BLMHOU

— Indivisible Houston (@indivisibleHOU) June 3, 2020

Like clockwork

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Oh, btw, the question of what do we do next came up. I came across this Twitter thread about research-based solutions to stop police violence which was very interesting:

https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224

Here are the big points (apparently bias training doesn't work because it can be so different depending on the place or who does it):

• More restrictive state and local policies governing police use of force are associated with significantly lower rates of police shootings/killings by police. This is backed by 30+ years of research.
• Demilitarization. Police depts that get more military weapons from the federal govt kill more people.
• Police Union Contracts. Every 4-6 years your police dept’s accountability system is re-negotiated. Purging misconduct records, reinstating fired officers, dept funding- it’s in the contract. Cities with worse contracts have higher police violence rates.
• Predictive policing on the police. Yes, use the technology against them. Data on use of force, complaints & lawsuits can be used to identify officers who most likely to shoot someone next and prevent it from happening.
• Invest in alternatives to police as crime prevention strategies.
• Establish non-police alternatives to 911 calls involving people with mental illness.
• Resource the Department of Justice (after the current president is voted out) to initiate more investigations of police departments. Departments that receive federal intervention have 25-30% fewer police shootings than those that do not.
• Know change is not only possible, it’s already happened in some places.

All of these points have a link attached to them.

400 Bad Request

Dude, it's like I'm posting into the ether. Is this thing on?

I mean I've only posted, check, 51 (!) times going back to this weekend.

SI

[Brian Swartz]

Others are posting duplicate links to the same videos as well. It's easy to miss things in an active thread, I wouldn't chalk it up to any more than that.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Drake

I'd be interested in some other anecdotal feedback on what I'm seeing in my kids' (college-aged) generation about their relationship to and conceptualization of the police as an institution. Minor caveat here: I work for a Big Ten university, so I'm in contact with lots of students in that 18-25 range...so while most of the chatter I here comes from my own kids, I also talk to other kids from other backgrounds in a fairly unguarded environment. That is, they're student hourlies in my office who don't report to me, but who I still work with and around on shared projects.

Anyway.

They don't like the police. They don't trust the police. They think "protect and serve" is an ironic statement. They like to cite a Supreme Court case -- that I've never bothered to research -- that ruled, in essence, that cops have no obligation to help you as a citizen, even if you're in deadly peril. (Edit: if none of this sounds familiar, just read the front page of Reddit. That's lines up with most of what I hear coming out of these kids.)

It looks to me like all of the violence against the black community, these instances of phone cam police brutality, etc. are, in their minds, a continuous flow of data points proving that the police as an institution are corrupt, out of control, and the absolute last place you should expect to receive help. And that's not a "this week in the news" opinion. It's just been highlighted this week.

Which sort of makes me wonder if all of this good cop/bad cop measurement we (i.e., Gen-X and older) attempt to do is moot. Because as this generation starts to amass political power, I suspect that they're going to lean more and more toward just burning down the concept of police forces as they're currently constituted. I'm less clear on what they think they'd replace it with...but the general attitude seems to be that the police are worthless at best and actively harmful to constitutionally guaranteed freedoms at worst.

Which gets me to thinking about my own views about the police...which is largely that I don't think about them. Because I'm a white guy who lives in a rural town and went to high school with most of the officers on our local force. But when I *do* think about cops institutionally, I think about Bruce Willis and Mel Gibson and any number of buddy cop movies that taught me cops are heroes who have to play fast and loose with the rules and frequently shoot bad guys who would do worse things if they weren't stopped.

And I can't for the life of me think of any media that would have similarly turned the opinion of my kids' generation during their formative years.

If law enforcement was my career, I'd feel nervous about the future of my profession based on what I hear from this generation.

I wonder how much of this is a distrust of authority itself. Not just the police but any authority with a capital A. I can trust a person in the authority but I can't trust the authority.

But when I *do* think about cops institutionally, I think about Bruce Willis and Mel Gibson and any number of buddy cop movies that taught me cops are heroes who have to play fast and loose with the rules and frequently shoot bad guys who would do worse things if they weren't stopped.

This reminded me of when my youngest son was four or five years old, a police car flew past me on the highway going at least 90 mph. He asked why the policeman was speeding. My response was he probably got called to deal with a crime. My son's response was that the policeman needed to put his lights on if he is going to speed. He ended it with "Remember Daddy, wrong is wrong and right is right."

As I typed that, I wonder if he still has any of that sort of innocence. If he does, I wonder if that is a good or bad thing.

[RainMaker]

The guy who tried to run over protestors with a truck is not going to be charged.

A truck driver who drove into Minneapolis protesters has been released from jail without criminal charges.

The governor said the driver was "frustrated" when he drove onto the highway, just before it was closed to traffic. No protesters were injured. pic.twitter.com/sWRaJIDm14

— AJ+ (@ajplus) June 2, 2020

[Lathum]

If you were to google Trump supporter angry at protesters a picture of that guy would come up

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

So Houston had a peaceful 60K protest today (as Floyd is from here and will be buried in my sleepy little suburb, of all places).

Tens of thousands join peaceful march for George Floyd in Houston | khou.com

All the stories up until now have been very positive. No reports of arrests. Very peaceful. No issues at all. The mayor was there, Floyd's family was there, a local House Rep (Lee) was there.





The official march ended at 5. However, of course, this is public property and there is no curfew so no one is obligated to go home and many stayed to protest.

Only, this Tweet went out about 10 minutes ago:

We're getting word that police are kettling and tear gassing protesters at Walker and Travis; get out of the area. Arrests will start as soon as they block everyone in.

Get outta there, #Houston @BLMHOU
— Indivisible Houston (@indivisibleHOU) June 3, 2020

So, yes, now that it's, checks watch, 7:30 and Houston, WHICH HAS NO CURFEW, is about to turn violent because the police have decided to kettle the protesters in so they can beat on them.

SI

Updates: Follow Tuesday's march for George Floyd in downtown Houston - Houston Chronicle

Updates from the Houston Chronicle

6:52 p.m.: Things are starting to escalate a bit outside City Hall as protesters and police clad in face shields come face-to-face. Some are pleading for people not to inflame tensions any further, according to a tweet from Houston Chronicle reporter Jasper Scherer.

7:06 p.m.: At Rusk and Avenida de las Americas downtown, police had gas masks on but took them off to the applause of demonstrators, Jay Jordan tweeted.

7:08 p.m.: Chron.com reporter Jay Jordan reports he saw mace being used, but not tear gas, as protesters remain in downtown Houston.

7:10 p.m.: “Leave the area immediately or you will be subject to arrest and additional force may be used against you,” police said via loudspeaker, according to the Houston Chronicle's Jay Jordan.

7:24 p.m.: Mayor Sylvester Turner took to Twitter, asking the remaining demonstrators to leave downtown. "For those remaining in the downtown area from the march, please clear the area and return home. This has been an incredible day for #GeorgeFloyd and his family."

7:56 p.m.: Police had has masks on earlier in the evening at Rusk and Avenida de las Americas because an unidentified person in the crowd, not police officers, used tear gas, Houston Chronicle reporter Nicole Hensley tweeted.


8:13 p.m.: Mayor Turner announced on Twitter that City Hall will glow this evening in honor of Floyd.

"After a peaceful march this afternoon, we will light City Hall crimson and gold in memory of #GeorgeFloyd. He graduated from Jack Yates High School. I am proud of #Houston for showing unity and being respectful, which is what Floyd’s family wanted," Turner tweeted. "By illuminating city hall, we are showing that all life deserves respect.

Tweets from a reporter for the Houston Chronicle:
Video of the announcement - looks like they're right in front of the George R Brown Convention Center: https://twitter.com/JayRJordan/statu...70808145723392

But hundreds if not thousands are still near Discovery Green protesting. No looting, damage in sight. Just loud voices fighting for justice and police yelling to disburse
— Jay R. Jordan (@JayRJordan) June 3, 2020

NOW: Loud bang at this intersection. Protesters fled. Not sure if it was a flash bang or tear gas. Too far away to tell. Officers weren’t wearing gas masks.
— Jay R. Jordan (@JayRJordan) June 3, 2020

This is what's fucking wrong with this whole situation! There is a giant park there. My wife and I have spent many weekend evenings there after going out for a night on the town. It's safe. It's well lit. It has a number of art installations. It has a lot of Pokemon Go gyms and stops... er... or so I've heard. I have been there after 10pm many night as it's a nice place to go. But, no, police are threatening people with arrest and then forcing them back using questionable-at-best means to mace and then arrest them.

And then, right after the Mayor comes out and talks about how proud and how great the city was today. It's really hard to build trust when you see things like that.



SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Others are posting duplicate links to the same videos as well. It's easy to miss things in an active thread, I wouldn't chalk it up to any more than that.

Sorry, was joking. Added smiley to indicate. I meant for the line about 51 posts but it wasn't a very good joke.

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The guy who tried to run over protestors with a truck is not going to be charged.

A truck driver who drove into Minneapolis protesters has been released from jail without criminal charges.

The governor said the driver was "frustrated" when he drove onto the highway, just before it was closed to traffic. No protesters were injured. pic.twitter.com/sWRaJIDm14
— AJ+ (@ajplus) June 2, 2020

So if I almost drive over people, it's cool if I'm "frustrated"

And there's a lot of noise about how that truck was let onto the highway by police. No one at the time could understand how it got there as the highway had been closed for a while.

Then again, this was the state that altered its FAQ after it got caught "lighting up" people sitting on their own porch the same day their governor said in a press conference that they could be on their own property.

SI

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Drake

I'd be interested in some other anecdotal feedback on what I'm seeing in my kids' (college-aged) generation about their relationship to and conceptualization of the police as an institution. Minor caveat here: I work for a Big Ten university, so I'm in contact with lots of students in that 18-25 range...so while most of the chatter I here comes from my own kids, I also talk to other kids from other backgrounds in a fairly unguarded environment. That is, they're student hourlies in my office who don't report to me, but who I still work with and around on shared projects.

Anyway.

They don't like the police. They don't trust the police. They think "protect and serve" is an ironic statement.

I have a bit of a probably tangential take here. I worked a lot with the younger generation until recently, and as has been said by someone else a lot of it is simply an anti-authority stance from what I observed. There was a lot of distaste for the police, but no more than for politicians, bosses at work, parents in some cases, etc.

A lot of the issues I have long feared and sometimes posted here about - hopefully this isn't too off-topic for the thread - may be starting to metastasize here. I observe the generation you are describing, up to about a decade older, to largely view authorities are killjoys. The main objection to the police I saw, but it was very widespread, is not one of fear in terms of police brutality. It was fear that the police would stop them from doing what they wanted to do, which was usually underage drinking or illegal drug use. The rapid decline and now near-elimination of respect for the rule of law, disgust with the political system, all of these things tie in together.

And of course paramount above it all is the breakdown of the family. The people I'm describing mostly didn't even believe in the idea of that anymore. The concept of getting married and staying married was a foreign concept to them. There are still areas of course where that isn't true, but the literal disintegration of society is very much there.

I want to believe things are going to get better, but I think we're going to have a very authoritarian government within 50 years, and the concept of a constitutional republic will not be merely distorted, but a distant memory. Society as we know it just can't survive this level of assault on this many fronts.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The guy who tried to run over protestors with a truck is not going to be charged.

A truck driver who drove into Minneapolis protesters has been released from jail without criminal charges.

The governor said the driver was "frustrated" when he drove onto the highway, just before it was closed to traffic. No protesters were injured. pic.twitter.com/sWRaJIDm14

— AJ+ (@ajplus) June 2, 2020

How the fuck is this not assault? Minnesota has a 6 fount strike zone with this fucker and is still high and away.

[JPhillips]

Reports are that DoD has called up 1600 troops for D.C.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Updates: Follow Tuesday's march for George Floyd in downtown Houston - Houston Chronicle

Updates from the Houston Chronicle



Tweets from a reporter for the Houston Chronicle:
Video of the announcement - looks like they're right in front of the George R Brown Convention Center: https://twitter.com/JayRJordan/statu...70808145723392

But hundreds if not thousands are still near Discovery Green protesting. No looting, damage in sight. Just loud voices fighting for justice and police yelling to disburse
— Jay R. Jordan (@JayRJordan) June 3, 2020

NOW: Loud bang at this intersection. Protesters fled. Not sure if it was a flash bang or tear gas. Too far away to tell. Officers weren’t wearing gas masks.
— Jay R. Jordan (@JayRJordan) June 3, 2020

This is what's fucking wrong with this whole situation! There is a giant park there. My wife and I have spent many weekend evenings there after going out for a night on the town. It's safe. It's well lit. It has a number of art installations. It has a lot of Pokemon Go gyms and stops... er... or so I've heard. I have been there after 10pm many night as it's a nice place to go. But, no, police are threatening people with arrest and then forcing them back using questionable-at-best means to mace and then arrest them.

And then, right after the Mayor comes out and talks about how proud and how great the city was today. It's really hard to build trust when you see things like that.



SI

And, yes, I said I'm not going to do the "post every time the police do something bad" but I hope you indulge me since this is MY CITY this is happening in. I'm pretty sure I know exactly where this video was taken (and I think the address tweeted above is somewhat incorrect - though maybe it was correct at the time and they were corralled there).

Once the remaining protesters were kettled in, this shit started:

My friend just got arrested in downtown Houston for peacefully protesting. The cops surrounded them and forcefully arrested them. #Houstonprotest #BlackLivesMattter pic.twitter.com/em2urOUjxb
— Medu$a ✨ (@masonchic08) June 3, 2020

The cops would send in one or two police to go grab someone, the crowd would try to stop them, and then the kettle line would beat on the protesters. Rinse, repeat. And, as a couple of people said at the end "they think this is funny shit" "they're smiling".

What do you do with that? How little humanity do you have to have to be ok with this?

SI


[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

The rapid decline and now near-elimination of respect for the rule of law, disgust with the political system, all of these things tie in together.

Pretty sure the previous generation is responsible for that one. Whether it be through bogus wars, human rights abuses, and massive amounts of unchecked financial fraud which caused an economic meltdown. Now they get to watch another massive economic collapse while a reality star the previous generation elected cosplays as Mussolini. All while turning the DOJ into a puppet that puts his criminal friends above the law and labels them domestic terrorists for the tenacity to protest.

So they've lived their short lives through one or two major economic downturns while piling up massive student loan debt because the previous generation said "fuck you I got mine" and defunded colleges. And they're told to vote for the guy who wrote the bill that won't let them discharge that in bankruptcy. Meanwhile they watch the stock market shoot up with no benefit to themselves thanks to massive borrowing that they'll have to reckon with when the previous generation dies off.

Other generations tried to smoke weed, drink beer, and sneak out of the house. They viewed adults who shut that down as killjoys too. Their problem is they have been told to respect the law by people who are above it.