Mixed Martial Arts Thread (UFC and others)

[CrescentMoonie]

Man, when Cerrone loses, it's usually bad.

[CrescentMoonie]

I'm really interested in how the Korean Zombie looks after such a long layoff. A few other interesting fights as well tonight.

[CrescentMoonie]

The women's strawweight fight between Andrade and Hill is possibly the 2nd best fight of the year so far. Just an absolute war.

And that gets followed with a potential KO of the year between Hamilton and Fortuna.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

The women's strawweight fight between Andrade and Hill is possibly the 2nd best fight of the year so far. Just an absolute war.

And that gets followed with a potential KO of the year between Hamilton and Fortuna.

Angela Hill is a tough young lady, she took some shots in that fight and that exchange they had in round 3 is easily the best 20 seconds of MMA I have seen in some time.

[CrescentMoonie]

Brutal night for the judges. Brunson and Holm clearly won.

Also, the ref for Holm and De Randamie shouldn't be allowed back in the cage for another professional fight. How do you not deduct a point for multiple strikes after the horn in consecutive rounds?

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Before TRT. Those were fights after he was juiced to the gills. He got a 6 month ban after the Silva fight because his T-to-E ratio was 16.9-1 when 1-1 is normal and 4-1 was the max allowable. That level means you were using to cover steroid use. He then claimed that the 5 illegal substances that led to his recent two year suspension were to help transition off TRT. He also recently admitted that he was taking TRT to get an edge despite years of denying it.

Using this argument (that he was juiced before Miller, Marquardt, and Okami... and later Bisping despite not testing positive after any of those fights), one could apply the same logic to Silva. Who did Silva ever beat? Franklin, Marquardt, Henderson, Maia, Belfort, Okami, Sonnen? All of those wins were before Silva tested positive for multiple steroid use. Does that mean Silva was never world class either?

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

Using this argument (that he was juiced before Miller, Marquardt, and Okami... and later Bisping despite not testing positive after any of those fights), one could apply the same logic to Silva. Who did Silva ever beat? Franklin, Marquardt, Henderson, Maia, Belfort, Okami, Sonnen? All of those wins were before Silva tested positive for multiple steroid use. Does that mean Silva was never world class either?

Silva was never on TRT. It's a completely different argument. Silva admitted juicing to try and recover from the broken leg. That's one fight and he got caught and suspended for it.

Sonnen has admitted to cheating for a decade.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Silva was never on TRT. It's a completely different argument. Silva admitted juicing to try and recover from the broken leg. That's one fight and he got caught and suspended for it.

Sonnen has admitted to cheating for a decade.

Fair enough. So the argument here is that Silva only ever used steroids once (or twice) and just happened to get caught? And that Sonnen has been using performance enhancing drugs before every fight but only got caught twice?

[molson]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Also, the ref for Holm and De Randamie shouldn't be allowed back in the cage for another professional fight. How do you not deduct a point for multiple strikes after the horn in consecutive rounds?

That's just the way it goes in MMA. I don't get it, but in the UFC and in the unified MMA rules generally it make sense to break the rules, because you won't be penalized. You can kick someone in the groin twice, poke them in the eye twice, and hit them twice after the bell, and there's no penalty. It's bizarre, but that's how they've always done it. The smarter fighters like Faber learned to get their eye pokes in at strategic times and then stop using them once they've hit their quota.

[molson]

I don't believe anything that comes out of either of these two camps, but it's interesting that they're trying to keep this out there.

Conor McGregor, Floyd Mayweather reportedly come to terms on a mega-fight - The Washington Post

There's probably enough money available in a fight like that to make Floyd, McGregor, and the UFC (who would have to sign-off) happy. And I really don't think it hurts McGregor at all to get beat by Mayweather, especially if he can look OK for a while. And he'd probably make $150 million or something, so who cares if he gets beat and looks bad doing it.

The old UFC regime would probably never agree to let McGregor do something like this, but the new regime overpaid for the company and is probably going to have a really bad 2017 in PPV and gate revenue. If they can get a piece of this it makes sense to listen.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't believe anything that comes out of either of these two camps, but it's interesting that they're trying to keep this out there.

Conor McGregor, Floyd Mayweather reportedly come to terms on a mega-fight - The Washington Post

There's probably enough money available in a fight like that to make Floyd, McGregor, and the UFC (who would have to sign-off) happy. And I really don't think it hurts McGregor at all to get beat by Mayweather, especially if he can look OK for a while. And he'd probably make $150 million or something, so who cares if he gets beat and looks bad doing it.

The old UFC regime would probably never agree to let McGregor do something like this, but the new regime overpaid for the company and is probably going to have a really bad 2017 in PPV and gate revenue. If they can get a piece of this it makes sense to listen.

If McGregor is going to get owned, make it fun and fight Triple G, would be awesome for the entire 42 seconds it lasts.

[Chief Rum]

I don't think McGregor will get owned. Every time he attempts to do something new, everyone always says "he can't do that."

He can't beat Aldo.
He can't beat a guy 25 pounds bigger than him.
He can't win two belts in two different classes.
He can't, he can't, he can't...

I think it's about time we learned the lesson and stopped saying "he can't" until he, you know, can't.

[CrescentMoonie]

He can't land a punch on Floyd unless the fight is fixed. Guys with 10 million times the boxing skill of Conor haven't been able to do anything against him.

[Suicane75]

Honest question from someone who's never seen Floyd fight. What kind of punching power does he have? From what I gather most of his fights are just him tapping and moving and winning rounds easy. Is that what you'd expect here?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

He can't land a punch on Floyd unless the fight is fixed. Guys with 10 million times the boxing skill of Conor haven't been able to do anything against him.

Yup, just something else he CAN'T do.

Until he does it.

Not saying you're wrong. It seems daft to think the guy could step in a ring with Mayweather and actually have a decent boxing match with the guy, but like I said, note the pattern.

If you don't want to learn from making bad assumptions in the past, go for it, but I have decided to go the other direction. I am betting he makes a decent fight of it.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Honest question from someone who's never seen Floyd fight. What kind of punching power does he have? From what I gather most of his fights are just him tapping and moving and winning rounds easy. Is that what you'd expect here?

That is what I expect, yes. Of course Mayweather is not without power. But the jab and move type of approach is his SOP.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Honest question from someone who's never seen Floyd fight. What kind of punching power does he have? From what I gather most of his fights are just him tapping and moving and winning rounds easy. Is that what you'd expect here?

He's probably the best defensive fighter of all time. He's also ridiculously fast even at his current age. He'll pepper Conor with punches while never getting touched and finish him whenever he wants. McGregor's gas tank will be empty by the 5th or 6th at the latest and Floyd won't even be breathing hard yet.

Holly Holm was patty cake puncher when she boxed, only 9 KOs in 38 fights, yet she's got legit power in MMA. Mayweather has 26 KOs in 49 fights, with the last one being in 2011. He will KO Conor and the fight will not be competitive.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Yup, just something else he CAN'T do.

Until he does it.

Not saying you're wrong. It seems daft to think the guy could step in a ring with Mayweather and actually have a decent boxing match with the guy, but like I said, note the pattern.

If you don't want to learn from making bad assumptions in the past, go for it, but I have decided to go the other direction. I am betting he makes a decent fight of it.

I had money on Conor in the Aldo fight, both Diaz fights, and the Alvarez fight. He's so far out of his league with Mayweather that he can't be competitive without it being a farce. I would say the opposite if Mayweather was agreeing to an MMA fight.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I had money on Conor in the Aldo fight, both Diaz fights, and the Alvarez fight. He's so far out of his league with Mayweather that he can't be competitive without it being a farce. I would say the opposite if Mayweather was agreeing to an MMA fight.

I would still put Mayweather's odds of winning under MMA rules about 10 times that of McGregor's winning under boxing rules though.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I would still put Mayweather's odds of winning under MMA rules about 10 times that of McGregor's winning under boxing rules though.

MMA rules would be completely one sided. Would like to see a two fight contract. One boxing and one MMA. Would pay to watch both.

[molson]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I would still put Mayweather's odds of winning under MMA rules about 10 times that of McGregor's winning under boxing rules though.

Really? We know that McGregor CAN box some, it is at least one of the skills he utilizes in the sport he's great at. (And he's one of the better guys in that sport at utilizing that particular skill). Mayweather has never had to take anyone down or kick anyone, or defend a takedown or defend kicks, or work out of a clinch against a fence. And I feel like McGregor would work much harder at improving his boxing over a 6-12 month period in preparation for this than Mayweather, at this point in his career, would to train MMA techniques. There's a much higher learning curve to MMA competence from where Mayweather is to boxing competence from where McGregor is. Also, Mayweather is old, and it'd probably be at least a 2-year hiatus for him since his last fight before this actually happened.

I'd like to see McGregor get some concession in the rules if they're really doing this - MMA gloves, or the fight only going 5 or 6 rounds. Even better would be kickboxing rules. But I doubt Mayweather would agree to anything like that. Which is why I think McGregor really wins the image part of this just by stepping into the ring. Anything beyond that, any punch landed or punch blocked is just gravy. For Mayweather, it's just making a 9 figure payday to fight a guy making his boxing debut, it doesn't add anything to his legacy. (Easy for me to say "just making a 9 figure payday").

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

MMA rules would be completely one sided. Would like to see a two fight contract. One boxing and one MMA. Would pay to watch both.

Originally Posted by molson

Really? We know that McGregor CAN box some, it is at least one of the skills he utilizes in the sport he's great at. (And he's one of the better guys in that sport at utilizing that particular skill). Mayweather has never had to take anyone down or kick anyone, or defend a takedown or defend kicks, or work out of a clinch against a fence. And I feel like McGregor would work much harder at improving his boxing over a 6-12 month period in preparation for this than Mayweather, at this point in his career, would to train MMA techniques. There's a much higher learning curve to MMA competence from where Mayweather is to boxing competence from where McGregor is. Also, Mayweather is old, and it'd probably be at least a 2-year hiatus for him since his last fight before this actually happened.

I'd like to see McGregor get some concession in the rules if they're really doing this - MMA gloves, or the fight only going 5 or 6 rounds. Even better would be kickboxing rules. But I doubt Mayweather would agree to anything like that. Which is why I think McGregor really wins the image part of this just by stepping into the ring. Anything beyond that, any punch landed or punch blocked is just gravy. For Mayweather, it's just making a 9 figure payday to fight a guy making his boxing debut, it doesn't add anything to his legacy. (Easy for me to say "just making a 9 figure payday").

When I say 10 times more likely to win in MMA than McGregor is in boxing, I Connor might beat Mayweather 1 out of 100 times in boxing and Mayweather beats him 10 of 100 in MMA. I know the ins and outs of both sports and have done both, but a an elite striker in MMA is nowhere near an elite boxer. (McGregor holds his chin too high for one). I think you underestimate Mayweather's foot speed, that in itself would allow him to get inside McGregor's kicks and do damage in an MMA fight at least 10 times more than McGregor would ever connect with a solid punch on him.

Lets not forget that Diaz was picking McGregor apart in their first fight towards the end and even dropped him. McGregor will not carry the power he has in MMA into boxing, the force is much more spread out with a boxing glove.

My point is, both should dominate in their discipline, but Floyd is much more likely to steal a win in MMA than Connor is in the ring and it's not even close.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I know the ins and outs of both sports and have done both, but a an elite striker in MMA is nowhere near an elite boxer. (McGregor holds his chin too high for one).

While we're on this topic.

His wide karate stance would need to be completely lost and an entirely new stance and all the footwork that entails would need to be learned. His striking in MMA has relied on his controlling distance by being long. He would be long in the ring, but not the same way as his legs would be useless, therefore, he'd end up being much closer, just to be at the end of his jab. His timing for that kind of a fight would be off because it's that different of an adjustment than anything he'd every really done, and he would be in the ring with one of the best of all time.

McGregor's fighting style is that of a counter puncher. Now that is also what Mayweather likes to do, so he couldn't just stand in the middle and wait for Mayweather to come to him. It's simply not his primary fighting style to do so. Just another reason that the advantage is so heavy to the boxer in the boxing ring.

I'm not sure that Conor's arms could take the punishment either. That's the one thing from my un-glorious boxing days, the incredible fatigue and weight of the arms over a fight. Just amazing how fast they tire out when you're using them that much. Granted he's used to a 25 min fight, boxing might go 30 or 36, so it's not that much longer, but you could easily shorten this to a 24 min fight (8 round) for exhibition purposes.

I'll stick with BYU that there are a lot of subtle things that make an elite fighter elite. The same for MMA. It's just not as simple as power and punching.

[molson]

That's good insight, but - what could Mayweather do against a take-down or submission attempt? That just seems so foreign to what Mayweather does.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by molson

That's good insight, but - what could Mayweather do against a take-down or submission attempt? That just seems so foreign to what Mayweather does.

Since when does McGregor go for takedowns?

[molson]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Since when does McGregor go for takedowns?

McGregor has been at least good on the ground against excellent MMA fighters like Mendes, Siver, Holloway, and Brandao. I find it hard to believe he'd struggle with Mayweather there even 1 time out of 100. So it's a matter of taking him down, which gets back to what Mayweather's tools are to avoid that. I think that world would be far more foreign to Mayweather than boxing is to McGregor. Mayweather could pick McGregor apart boxing over time, but I don't think McGregor would ever let that happen with MMA tools at his disposal.

10 out of 100 wins for Mayweather against McGregor in MMA seems way high to me, that's the equivalent of about 9-1. Holly Holm was a bigger underdog than that to Rondy Rousey at times before that fight.

[Chief Rum]

I'm with molson. What on Earth is Mayweather going to do when Connor takes him down? Nothing he does remotely prepares him for that. Even a weaker wrestler like Connor will completely school Floyd on the ground. At least the striking in MMA is cousins to the boxing in the ring. Nothing in boxing comes close to the ground game in the octagon.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I'm with molson. What on Earth is Mayweather going to do when Connor takes him down? Nothing he does remotely prepares him for that. Even a weaker wrestler like Connor will completely school Floyd on the ground. At least the striking in MMA is cousins to the boxing in the ring. Nothing in boxing comes close to the ground game in the octagon.

Yeah, exactly this. Boxing is part of MMA, the other elements of MMA are nothing to do with boxing. McGregor might not be an elite wrestler or grappler but if he wasn't at least well above average you would never have heard of him

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by molson

That's good insight, but - what could Mayweather do against a take-down or submission attempt? That just seems so foreign to what Mayweather does.

Oh he's screwed then That's why he only wins one of ten under MMA rules. I can't see him not catching McGregor at least once coming for a shot, just too fast.

Floyds only chance would be a frantic scramble, once McGregor had him controlled it would be over. On the feet I just see no part of McGregor's game that presents a threat outside of leg kicks and under boxing rules no threat whatsoever.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Yeah, exactly this. Boxing is part of MMA, the other elements of MMA are nothing to do with boxing. McGregor might not be an elite wrestler or grappler but if he wasn't at least well above average you would never have heard of him

I agree with this too, but again I am only saying Mayweather wins 1 of 10 under MMA. You have 5 distinct disciplines that go into MMA, boxing, karate, muay thai, grappling and jiu jitsu. You have to be at least competent in all of them to excel in MMA.

The problem though is you are never going to get elite in more than one of them and if you are an elite boxer, you remain a boxer because there is money there. Wresting, BJJ, Muay Thai and Karate do not afford a fighter the economic opportunities that boxing does, especially the first two which is why you see more high level wrestlers and BJJ guys than anything else.

McGregor is an elite MMA striker, but the difference between an elite MMA striker and elite boxer is pronounced. Subtle things like chin position, footwork, angles, movement in the pocket. Things an MMA guys will just never get to the level of Mayweather, so despite McGregor's skill in boxing he has zero chance of touching Mayweather in the ring with anything significant. The same does not apply in the cage, where Mayweather can definitely touch McGregor and if he hits him on the button before he ties Floyd up, Connor goes down. Again, not saying this would happen a lot, but it would happen at least once in every ten fights. Floyd just understands distance and movement far too well and the smaller surface and harder density of an MMA glove will focus his power more.

[CU Tiger]

I wish I could just like all of BYU 14's posts.
He has it covered here.

As a boxer Connor never makes it above regional pro, early card on Friday night fights.

Yet the best pros have tried and failed against Mayweather. This isnt a biased take. I'd pay gloriously to see someone knock Mayweather the fawk out The more blood the better. I think he is a horrible human being. But he is a great boxer.

I honestly dont think Connor can even touch Mayweather. Don't lose sight of the fact that McGregor would be forced to wear boxing boots. Something to date he has never trained in. These would slow his footwork down some, and its already much slower than Mayweather's.

I've read this debate a few times and saw several people suggest MMA gloves as an equalizer. No way. Mayweather would break his hand from his punching power, number 1. And number two there isnt a commission alive that would sanction it. A clean shot from Mayweather, one shot, could kill McGregor in an MMA glove.

I know boxing is boring, but I think a lot of people are severly discounting just how hard boxer's punch.And how ELITE of a boxer Mayweather is.

[CrescentMoonie]

Thank you. Conor doesn't touch Mayweather with a punch in a boxing match unless the fight is fixed. The best striker Conor has faced in MMA is Nate Diaz and he's gotten tagged in both fights. Mayweather could roll his shoulders, without throwing a single punch, and not get hit by Conor for several rounds. Let's not forget that Floyd knocked out 13 of his first 15 opponents before becoming the best defensive fighter ever, and still has 13 more ko/tko/retirement wins.

As far as the ground game goes, Conor has 1 takedown in an MMA fight and it was after Diaz cracked him on the jaw in their first fight and ended in the second extremely quick tapout by Conor in his career. He's not a ground fighter, at all, so Floyd would only have to defend against punches even on the ground.

[CrescentMoonie]

Mitrione diagnosed with kidney stones hours before the fight and Afraidor refuses last second replacements Kongo, Sonnen, and Oli Thompson. Josh Thompson vs Pitbull moved to the main event.

Tough blow for Bellator, but they did the right thing and offered full refunds to anyone who wanted one.

[PilotMan]

If anyone missed it, GSP's return was confirmed by Dana yesterday.

[CrescentMoonie]

Not sure if I enjoyed Lewis beating Browne, or Lewis trashing Browne for being an "alleged" woman beater more.

[molson]

Derrick Lewis is a national treasure. I had to rewind to make sure that he said that he needed time off because of all of the sex he's been having, and that he wasn't really hurt in the first round, he just needed to take a shit.

He posted a video of the KO overlayed with Edmund Targaryen yelling non-helpful corner advice, even though Edmund wasn't at this fight (it's tricky for felons to get into Canada).

https://www.instagram.com/p/BQuUQFIjWqr/

Then he posted this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5FxVzLWEAQIQJL.jpg

It's always fun to see the Targaryen empire crumble a little more, but that was a scary late stoppage.

I don't know what they do with Lewis now, but he has to fight a top 5 heavyweight soon even though he doesn't really look like an elite fighter even when he wins. Maybe he gets the Overeem/Hunt winner.

Edit: He did call out Hunt in the post-fight press conference.

And I liked Grisham on commentary. I know everybody loves Anik but he's a little bland.

[CrescentMoonie]

Grisham was the surprise of the night. He and Stann worked well together and seemed like they went in with a gameplan for the night of how to set each other's strengths up while allowing for the fights to take them off script when necessary.

[molson]

Dana white announced Bisping v. GSP for the middleweight title.

[CrescentMoonie]

Gotta love being able to give a returning legend a tomato can and a title fight in one shot.

[PilotMan]

Is that going to be his first fight at 185?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Khabib v Ferguson being reported as officially cancelled due to a missed weigh-in.

Khabib reportedly hospitalized just a few hours before the weigh-in was scheduled to take place.

[PilotMan]

That sucks. I hope they let Ferguson pass him in the queue then.

[CrescentMoonie]

Congrats to Julia Budd. 4 fights into her career she was 2-2 with losses to Amanda Nunes and Ronda Rousey in a combined :53. Tonight she's the first Bellator women's champion with a win over Marloes Coenen, running her record to 10-2.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

As far as the ground game goes, Conor has 1 takedown in an MMA fight and it was after Diaz cracked him on the jaw in their first fight and ended in the second extremely quick tapout by Conor in his career. He's not a ground fighter, at all, so Floyd would only have to defend against punches even on the ground.

Yeah, I don't care for McGregor either but this is total garbage. McGregor is an experienced BJJ practitioner, a Brown Belt under John Kavanagh. Kavanagh is a 3rd degree Black Belt, and THE guy in Ireland when it comes to BJJ. You will not achieve success in MMA without a solid ground game. I think that was apparently obvious from the get go in 1993, let alone the modern sport as it is now.

The difference between what Conor could do on the ground to Mayweather is far wider than the gap in their boxing credential. Conor might only be half way up the ladder in boxing terms, but at least he isn't totally clueless.

I am glad GSP vs Bisping is on the cards now, a real competitive contest to look forward to.

[CrescentMoonie]

Speaking of fighters whose physique, and ability, drastically changed with the ever increasingly strict drug testing, Vitor Belfort didn't look at all like himself as Kelvin Gastelum just walked right through him.

[BYU 14]

McGregor sparring, his feet are horrid and he is very stiff at the waist.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

McGregor sparring, his feet are horrid and he is very stiff at the waist.

I don't know shit about the technicalities of either sport, but compared to other MMA fighters I've always noticed how straight and tall McGregor stands (my crappy spine covets his posture). It appears to work well for him in MMA, as it seems to force his opponents to close the distance a few more critical inches in order to strike with him, but it does give the impression it might work against him in a pure boxing match. Here, his boxing sparring partner looks to get way more lateral & head movement, as well as a better reach, through leaning & a forward stance, and without the threat of kicks & holds, the relatively straight-up McGregor doesn't seem like he can do much about it, offensively or defensively.

[PilotMan]

Wow, BYU, that's even worse than I imagined. He's so damn flat footed, the ring is so small, he's getting cut off, he has no idea what to do with the jab, and that's all in the first 20 seconds.

As a trainer I'd say he needs a lot of work at range. He just isn't comfortable. The distance at which he feels lethal just isn't in the faster paced boxing style. That can be overcome, as the footwork issue, but then it's down to skill after that. Getting accustomed to the much smaller ring works against him too as there's no where to run when your opponent cuts you off.

Furthermore, his opponent is straight up walking him down. That's sign #1 that there's a skill difference. There's no challenge to him if he's just walking you down. It's very demoralizing to a fighter when there's no where to move.

A boxer has to move at least twice as fast as Conor is to keep that distance that he's trying to keep.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

but compared to other MMA fighters I've always noticed how straight and tall McGregor stands.

He is very straight up and holds his chin way too high for a boxer. MMA fighters by nature are more straight up because they have to contend with kicks and knees. But this clip just shows how awkwardly that translates to the boxing ring.

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Wow, BYU, that's even worse than I imagined. He's so damn flat footed, the ring is so small, he's getting cut off, he has no idea what to do with the jab, and that's all in the first 20 seconds.

Yeah, I was a little surprised at how out of sorts he looks, considering he did box before becoming an MMA fighter. To be fair the guy he is sparring (Chris Van Heerden) is 25-2-1 (12) and is a former IBO World title holder, not that that particular title is worth the aluminum it's pressed from, but still he is top 15-20 fighter and one of his two losses is to undefeated and #8 Welterweight Errol Spence, who is a damn good fighter.

But still, he probably outweighs Van Heerden (who is not a big puncher) by 15-20 pounds here and he is still getting backed up, and can't budge him. So if this is happening against a fringe contender, imagine the carnage going against one of the top 10 pound for pound fighters of all time?

[CrescentMoonie]

Charles Rosa looks like the bastard child of Nick Diaz and Cody Rhodes.