Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[molson]

Roids/HGH can benefit anyone who wrestles that schedule - there were even rumors about the divas using for fat burning purposes. And Mysterio/Sin Cara's styles are a lot more high-impact and probably a lot harder to do every night...I'm sure both have used just to be able to bounce back faster.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Saw someone joke that they should just put a mask on Justin Gabriel (who was excellent last night) and call him Sin Cara.

Not a bad idea. They could have put any number of North American, WWE-ready guys under that mask with that gimmick. Instead they wanted to go legit, bring in a guy with a different style, and are now disapointed (and apparently, surprised) that he doesn't mesh perfectly with guys who have come up through FCW. Maybe they felt like Mistico would deliver more Mexican fans.

[Neon_Chaos]

Punk is gone, Cena is gone (both, assumingly, storyline-wise)

8-man tourney for the WWE Title on RAW.

[Mota]

They haven't let Sin Cara be Sin Cara though. He's just been allowed to be a spot monkey. This guy won the Wrestling Observer Wrestler of the Year award, he's gotta be way more than that. So far I haven't liked what I've seen though, Mistico may be great but the Sin Cara that they've let him be is a completely one dimensional character.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well, I'll admit that wasn't the swerve I was expecting.

[Neon_Chaos]

Well...

...things just got interesting?

[RainMaker]

I don't know what to think. That was more weird than anything.

Maybe this is their way of finally passing the torch to HHH, or maybe this is setting up a Vince invasion angle.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I can't imagine it's permanent, or as I told my son "I figure that's kind of like a Terry Funk 'retirement' " but it seems like a smart way to generate another week or two of buzz.

FWIW, most of the sites I've visited checking for results (kid has the TV down here tied up with the 360 atm) have universally had the IWC crapping on the wrestling throughout the show and while I can't comment on the quality of the matches, I have to admit that when I saw the 8 entrants listed my first thought was "my God, they really don't have any main eventers left". Not a single name in the 8 that I'd pay to see at this point nor really any that has much chance of holding my attention enough to delay a bathroom break or a channel surf.

I think that, as much as anything, highlights the challenge that they face.

[RainMaker]

Yeah, Alex Riley is the #2 face which is not good. I have no idea where they are going with this, which is a good thing. Still don't think there is any chance in hell that Punk is off TV for long.

My guess is Vince is back next week to cite some bylaws about creating a new WWE Championship and how they can't legally do it. Then maybe have CM Punk with him and we end up with a Punk vs Cena with stipulations being Vince gets control again if Punk wins.

Then again, maybe Vince doesn't want to be on camera anymore and this is a good excuse to get him off and focus backstage. He does seem to go through stages where he wants off camera for awhile.

[Neon_Chaos]

I am just glad that CM Punk didn't show up tonight.

Hope they string the angle along for quite a while.

[Mota]

I loved the convenient photo op of CM Punk at the ballgame. Definitely not a coincidence that he went Monday.

[Maple Leafs]

Haven't seen the angle, but seems everyone's raving about it. How is this any different from the other three dozen "there's a new guy in charge of the show" angles they've done in the last few years?

And are fans really supposed to buy that Vince is gone for good, when you just did two more "goodbye" angles at the PPV and one of those guys is already back full-time?

[Comey]

The thing with Vince is that the net has known that this was coming sooner or later; everyone knew that HHH was already running RAW and taking more of an in-charge role in general. Vince has also been ready to be done with his on-screen role for quite some time.

Additionally, it's the first time that something the Vince character has had something blow up in his face with something of this magnitude. The fact that they actually went with this, instead of doing some ridiculous bailout, has raised eyebrows. When is the last time the WWE taken chances, and actually followed through after the initial angle? Think back to the last time they shook things up...Nexus was basically destroyed almost immediately. With this...well, they haven't messed it up yet. CM Punk has the title; he's gone (and nobody outside of a few know if he's been re-signed yet or not).

So...this is the first sustained angle in a *long* time that actually has people guessing.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Haven't seen the angle, but seems everyone's raving about it. How is this any different from the other three dozen "there's a new guy in charge of the show" angles they've done in the last few years?

And are fans really supposed to buy that Vince is gone for good, when you just did two more "goodbye" angles at the PPV and one of those guys is already back full-time?

I didn't like the angle as much as some just because it reminded me too much of TNA (and late WCW) - guys standing around, talking about behind the scenes stuff and who's running the company. Those types of angles are way overused the last 10-15 years really, but to be fair, the WWE hasn't done it nearly as often (there was Ric Flair getting half the company in the original brand split in 2002, and Donald Trump owning the the company for a week, I think that's about it - I'm not counting the revolving GMs, because Vince the character has always had authority over them).

I don't see the HHH thing as much as a big deal all by itself, it's really just a step in the Punk/Cena/Vince storyline....and its a positive one - I'd much rather see Punk/HHH at mania than Punk/Vince (and I do think part of this is the fact that Vince's doctors have now forbid him from taking any bumps.) And we all "believe" HHH as the boss - it's not like William Regal getting a benefactor and suddenly owning the company or something.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

I loved the convenient photo op of CM Punk at the ballgame. Definitely not a coincidence that he went Monday.

I got a chuckle out of noticing that the Chicago guy was hanging out with Chase Utley before the game.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Comey

The thing with Vince is that the net has known that this was coming sooner or later; everyone knew that HHH was already running RAW and taking more of an in-charge role in general. Vince has also been ready to be done with his on-screen role for quite some time.

Maybe the net understands that, but I have to wonder about the average fan. This has to be confusing to them... "Hey wait, Vince once joined a satanic cult, he faked his own death, he spent an entire episode of RAW talking to himself in a mirror, he decided he was a wrestler like 8,000 times... but now the board fires him?"

[Comey]

Interestingly enough, it's being discussed that last night's angle has reality to it (which is pretty understood), but there's also some questions as to whether or not they created a SEC violation with their angle to close RAW.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Maybe the net understands that, but I have to wonder about the average fan. This has to be confusing to them... "Hey wait, Vince once joined a satanic cult, he faked his own death, he spent an entire episode of RAW talking to himself in a mirror, he decided he was a wrestler like 8,000 times... but now the board fires him?"

Internally he might be stepping down, or giving up control, but they are using the fired angle externally as a way to make it more exciting.

[Comey]

From my understanding (from someone in the know), Vince is, most assuredly, not giving up control. HHH has been groomed (and has been running a lot of TV events, and been in charge of talent development, etc)...but Vince isn't going anywhere. Just...not on TV (which, again, has been coming for a long time...both as an on-screen character and as a face of the company).

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Comey

but there's also some questions as to whether or not they created a SEC violation with their angle to close RAW.

How? Is it against regs to make false public statements about what happened in board meetings?

In any event, I'd love to see that hearing:

SETTING: Floor of the Senate.

SENATOR FRANK: "So are you saying, Mrs. McMahon, that you admit to willfully and intentionally violating Subsection 3243.456(c)(5)(B)(iii) involving the fraudulent representation of Board activity of a publicly traded company?"

LINDA McMAHON (looking down, barely audible): "Yes."

SENATOR FRANK: "Then, Mrs. McMahon, this committee has no choice but to . . ."

SUDDENLY, the sound of BREAKING GLASS reverberates throughout Congress.

SENATOR McCAIN: "Oh My God! That's Stone Cold's Music!!"

And then it just gets awesome from there.

[Mota]

I doubt that McMahon can get pushed out of his role by the board of directors because the McMahon family owns 97% of all Class A Voting shares. While it's a public company, the McMahons have all the voting power.

[RainMaker]

I'm pretty sure they ran into issues when they did the "Vince is dead" angle years ago. They made a release on the site or something and the shares dropped 6%. Not sure if anything came of it but I remember people talking about how fake releases regarding executives are SEC violations. Kind of a tricky area when you're trying to run a storyline and follow the rules as a public company.

I would hope the SEC has better things to do with their time.

[Comey]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

How? Is it against regs to make false public statements about what happened in board meetings?

In any event, I'd love to see that hearing:

SETTING: Floor of the Senate.

SENATOR FRANK: "So are you saying, Mrs. McMahon, that you admit to willfully and intentionally violating Subsection 3243.456(c)(5)(B)(iii) involving the fraudulent representation of Board activity of a publicly traded company?"

LINDA McMAHON (looking down, barely audible): "Yes."

SENATOR FRANK: "Then, Mrs. McMahon, this committee has no choice but to . . ."

SUDDENLY, the sound of BREAKING GLASS reverberates throughout Congress.

SENATOR McCAIN: "Oh My God! That's Stone Cold's Music!!"

And then it just gets awesome from there.

Hell, I have no idea. It was in an article I read; something about the chain of command and affecting the stock price.

[molson]

Originally Posted by brassmonkey32

Vince will be back with CM PUNK and some of the ROH wrestlers. It will be an invasion angle. Thats my opinion.

It is kind of intriguing that Bryan Danielson has the MITB briefcase, Punk's been mentioning Colt Cabana (and high-fived him at ringside during the match Sunday), and Claudio Castagnoli and Chris Hero have been rumored to be WWE-bound for a while now. And Vince needs his fans to have some indy awareness in 2011 in kind of the same way he needed them to have ECW awareness in 1996 when he started playing around with crossover angles with them. That's where is future stars are going to come from.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The notion about an ROH invasion angle is an interesting one for sure.

The thing that has crossed my mind more than once in the past few weeks is this feeling that, somehow, Vince knows something we don't. Or at least thinks he knows something.

Does he know something about TNA's future (or lack thereof perhaps)? Was he somehow involved in the ROH/Sinclair deal? Conspiracy theories could certainly abound if one were so inclined.

[RainMaker]

I think the ROH invasion angle sounds great but I think it's a bit of a fantasy. The bulk of the audience doesn't know about ROH or care about those guys. They definitely need an infusion of talent but WWE has seemed to want to build their own guys forever.

The ratings weren't great for last night's show either. Not sure what to think of that. They are coming off the best PPV in over a decade, have huge question marks regarding the WWE Championship, and biggest superstar is supposedly being fired. You'd think that would play perfectly to both marks and smarks yet still didn't result in much of a bump. Maybe that audience people keep thinking will come back is gone for good. Moved on to other things like UFC.

On the flipside, they are supposedly signing that tag team and Colt Cabana has told people not to book him after this month. I'm certain CM Punk has signed a contract and I wonder if signing Colt was a gesture to get him to come back. Those 4 + Bryan would make one hell of a faction in the ring. And create some great smarks vs marks crowds throughout the country. Still, looking back through the years I just can't see them being that smart or creative with their booking. Even though the Punk/Vince angle was great, they still fell back on the "OMG CENA IS GOING TO BE FIRED" story that is comical at this point.

Interesting times ahead. Can't say I've had this kind of interest in a long time.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

It is kind of intriguing that Bryan Danielson has the MITB briefcase, Punk's been mentioning Colt Cabana (and high-fived him at ringside during the match Sunday), and Claudio Castagnoli and Chris Hero have been rumored to be WWE-bound for a while now. And Vince needs his fans to have some indy awareness in 2011 in kind of the same way he needed them to have ECW awareness in 1996 when he started playing around with crossover angles with them. That's where is future stars are going to come from.

Yeah I read that Claudio Castagnoli and Chris Hero are both in the screening process, signing paperwork, physicals, etc. These guys are real WWE material, they're big tall dudes, they have charisma and know how to talk. They're the kind of guys that if WWE wants them to be successful, they've got the goods to be. I'd say moreso than Tyler Black who has a great look but is a bit small and is lacking some charisma (he has some, but I don't think the WWE type).

[Mota]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The ratings weren't great for last night's show either. Not sure what to think of that. They are coming off the best PPV in over a decade, have huge question marks regarding the WWE Championship, and biggest superstar is supposedly being fired. You'd think that would play perfectly to both marks and smarks yet still didn't result in much of a bump. Maybe that audience people keep thinking will come back is gone for good. Moved on to other things like UFC.

You have to remember back in 1998 when WWE was kicking WCW's butt in terms of show quality, but it took a long time for the ratings to swing. People don't automatically hear about a show being good, it takes time to hear about it, and then time to start building that loyalty again.

Right now the WWE can pull some decent ratings with The Rock but it's not a loyal audience. Events steal from the WWE ratings all that time which means they're a sampling audience. Once you build up that loyalty, it'll be the WWE stealing other people's ratings instead, and that's when the ratings will really go up.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by molson

It is kind of intriguing that Bryan Danielson has the MITB briefcase, Punk's been mentioning Colt Cabana (and high-fived him at ringside during the match Sunday), and Claudio Castagnoli and Chris Hero have been rumored to be WWE-bound for a while now. And Vince needs his fans to have some indy awareness in 2011 in kind of the same way he needed them to have ECW awareness in 1996 when he started playing around with crossover angles with them. That's where is future stars are going to come from.

Sounds cool, but again, imagine the average fan: "Wait, an invasion angle with a renegade group of mostly unknown younger wrestlers, which includes Danielson and eventually has CM Punk as their leader? How fresh and innovative!"

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Maybe that audience people keep thinking will come back is gone for good. Moved on to other things like UFC.

Or the 'net + the 360 + on demand + a number of other things.

I never turned the TV on Monday night, but I checked for updates online multiple times.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Umm ....

Sean Waltman tweeted the following, clarifying his Triple H-Vince McMahon tweet from last night: “To clarify my tweet last night. Raw last night was real on a symbolic level.”

Maybe he should have just claimed someone hacked his Twitter

[molson]

FWIW (and its not really worth anything, its just kind of noteworthy), Meltzer gave Cena/Punk 5 stars, which is his first 5-star rating for a WWE match since Undertaker/HBK Hell in the Cell in 1997.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Or the 'net + the 360 + on demand + a number of other things.

I never turned the TV on Monday night, but I checked for updates online multiple times.

Yeah, there is just too much stuff out there. I also don't watch it often either. Grab the results online or just watch the first and last parts of Raw and FF through the rest on the DVR.

[RainMaker]

This is from F4W:

There are people in WWE who don't know this, but strongly suspect there is some sort of working agreement between ROH and WWE. There are people in ROH who think so as well, and also people on both sides who insist there isn't. But I was told flat-out that in the next six weeks, many of the things that Punk talked about in that epic promo two weeks ago are going to find their way onto WWE television, which also speaks to the fact that it was not, in fact, an unscripted promo where the company had no idea what he was going to say. He talked about HHH taking over, and lo and behold, HHH has taken over. He talked about John Laurinaitis and two weeks later Laurinaitis was on TV. He talked about Colt Cabana, and Colt, while unmentioned by the announcers, was not only in the front row giving Punk a high-five at the PPV, but also celebrating around Chicago later in the evening, a celebration recorded by TMZ.com. And he mentioned ROH. All I know is that this was not unplanned.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Punk crashes the WWE event at ComiCon.

[Mota]

That's awesome. He's really making himself into a cult hero here, which is weird because he was playing the initial shoot as a heel.

[RainMaker]

Isn't that sort of how guys like Stone Cold and the Rock got over? Playing a heel so well that they built this cult audience that eventually turned them face.

[molson]

It's interesting that they're eating up the "anti-WWE" shtick - it's like he's breaking down their cynicism and they're just enjoying the storyline and playing along with their appropriate fan reaction. (When THAT particular subgroup of fans certainly understands the storyline aspects of this and that Punk is a company guy.) It's cool to see, and its something that takes great talent and storyline development. (Compare to the ROH fans crapping all over Matt Hardy and not buying, or even playing along with, any idea that he was an "outsider".)

Edit: A more cynical fanbase (like how it might of been in the "worked shoot" era of 1999-2001) might have just crapped all over this as "insulting our intelligence".

[molson]

Dola: And sure, Austin hated McMahon in those storylines - but it wasn't because Austin didn't like McMahon's booking. The CM Punk thing, amazingly, is ALMOST Russioish (except that it's subtle, drawn out, and makes sense, and it isn't dropped without explanation by the next show.).

[molson]

And sorry for just linking Grantland again, but Bill Simmons ranking the theme songs and breaking down what makes a good entrance in pro wrestling (I liked his description of Goldberg's theme as "a FOX NFL broadcast theme gone horribly wrong")

Bill Simmons on WWE music - Grantland

[Flasch186]

...after about 5 or 6 years Im actually enjoying this bit of wrestling again.

[Comey]

Originally Posted by Mota

That's awesome. He's really making himself into a cult hero here, which is weird because he was playing the initial shoot as a heel.

Do you think he was? I think he was just saying what he wanted to say, and was in full "I don't care" mode. I mean, there was a lot of heel to his approach, but he also knew what kind of reaction he'd get for the rest.

I think he's just having the time of his life.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Dola: And sure, Austin hated McMahon in those storylines - but it wasn't because Austin didn't like McMahon's booking. The CM Punk thing, amazingly, is ALMOST Russioish (except that it's subtle, drawn out, and makes sense, and it isn't dropped without explanation by the next show.).

I don't think it's necessarily about being anti-WWE, it's being the anti-hero. While it wasn't directed at WWE, Austin's gimmick was built on crapping on babyfaces. Mocking their image and not caring what others thought about him attacking them. Punk is sort of doing the same thing, mocking the biggest babyface in the company along with other elements of WWE.

It's worth noting that Russo was a part of WWE back then and I believe heavily involved in writing the Austin-McMahon feud.

[Neon_Chaos]

Vince Russo has always been a fountain of ideas. It's just that he needed Vince McMahon to filter the great ones from the bad.

He didn't have that filter once he left WWE, hence we got the crapfest that was the Vince Russo era in WCW.

[RainMaker]

Whatever happens it does seem like we'll get a HHH-Punk match at some point I'd guess. Maybe Wrestlemania if they can drag it out that long.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

(except that it's subtle, drawn out, and makes sense, and it isn't dropped without explanation by the next show.).

Which would pretty much make it anti-Russoish

[molson]

Cena wining the title again already is lame but Punk using his ROH theme song from 2005 is pretty awesome (and so unlike-WWE to use a song like that they'd have to pay licensing for). He also showed up at a random Illinois indy show this week. I hope they draw THAT part of the angle out a little longer.

I'm not a fan of hotshotting Punk/Cena at Summerslam, though it will be a great match. Even Cena/Mysterio tonight was pretty great, even if, again, they're going too quickly here. (which may be just because Punk's contract is legitimately up in late August, as I think was originally reported.)

[Comey]

Typical WWE, not having any faith in being able to draw an angle out. Do they feel their audience is ADD-addled and requires immediate payoff at all times?

I'm back to not caring. Such a shame.

[Toddzilla]

wow - from hottest angle in a decade to dead in 1 week. they killed that faster than the first Nexus run.

[molson]

If it's just Cena beating Punk at Summerslam and Punk leaving, that will be a big disappointment......But if Punk was going to leave anyway, this was a better storyline than usual for such a departure. (though it would have been better if someone else got involved so we weren't just where we were then the whole things started.) If he's staying, I'd expect another twist.

Edit: I'd just add too that while the booking here makes me nervous that this whole thing is being blown, if you're into wrestling it's been a great few months (years, I'd argue). Mysterio delivered big-time tonight in two matches, he's still got it.