Game of Thrones on HBO

[Groundhog]

I don't even think it's needing to switch your brain off. I just think it's ridiculous when I go online and see folks getting worked up over physics in a show about magic.

There are legitimate gripes about the writing this season which I tend to agree with (despite still enjoying every episode so far), but poking holes in the science behind a show like this boggles my mind.

[JPhillips]

But isn't that just a variant of, what bothers me is legit, but what bothers you isn't?

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But isn't that just a variant of, what bothers me is legit, but what bothers you isn't?

Yep, pretty much.

[ISiddiqui]

Even stories about magic need to have their own internal logic. I think just about anyone would be pissed if intergalactic aliens suddenly arrived and killed all the characters and few would say why are you bickering, it's a fantasy show? So I do think it is valid to say, hey the rules of this story established that that can't happen.

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[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Yep, pretty much.

Fair enough.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Even stories about magic need to have their own internal logic. I think just about anyone would be pissed if intergalactic aliens suddenly arrived and killed all the characters and few would say why are you bickering, it's a fantasy show? So I do think it is valid to say, hey the rules of this story established that that can't happen.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

When the first alien comes, sure. When the 30th alien invasion happens you probably gotta examine whether or not this show is for you still. Its certainly your right to watch and critique as you wish but then you sound like the beleaguered wife who complains about her abusive husband but still goes back for more hoping he's a changed man.

[fizeto512]

And there goes the Blue eyes white dragon xD xD

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[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

When the first alien comes, sure. When the 30th alien invasion happens you probably gotta examine whether or not this show is for you still. Its certainly your right to watch and critique as you wish but then you sound like the beleaguered wife who complains about her abusive husband but still goes back for more hoping he's a changed man.

By that same token, I can totally understand the idea of enjoying something with your brain off and/or without wanting to constantly dissect the plot, what I don't understand why those same folks who chose to do so would then intentionally seek out an internet discussion on the subject and continually claim surprise and offense at finding any criticism inside. I find it doubly confusing/funny to hear the folks who find criticism of a fantasy TV show's characters and plots to be heavy-handed and smug, literally and directly calling real people miserable, beleaguered, abused wives.

As far as I can tell nobody criticizing the show calls out or even mentions other viewers while doing so (though I will happily engage in meta-bickering after the fact, if called out on something), yet seemingly every claim to 'turn off your brain', just enjoy the show for what it is and reject criticism, seems to come attached to an unnecessary question of the ability for joy, intelligence and/or existential worth of folks who criticize the show....which sounds ridiculous, insulting and particularly contradictory from my perspective.

[bronconick]

The biggest problem I think was the whole "find a wight" plan because the main reason for it was to get the Night King a dragon. Martin likely mentioned this years ago and left it to them to figure out how it happens. He can't even figure how get the dragons out of Essos (17 years and counting!). They had maybe a year to come up with a way.

[Groundhog]

I think a more logical way to script a dragon for the white walkers would have been for Jon to tell Danny that if she doesn't believe there's white walkers, go see for yourself. I think the reason they chose the route they did was more to get that particular 'Magnificent 7' together for some scenes and some screen time.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

By that same token, I can totally understand the idea of enjoying something with your brain off and/or without wanting to constantly dissect the plot, what I don't understand why those same folks who chose to do so would then intentionally seek out an internet discussion on the subject and continually claim surprise and offense at finding any criticism inside. I find it doubly confusing/funny to hear the folks who find criticism of a fantasy TV show's characters and plots to be heavy-handed and smug, literally and directly calling real people miserable, beleaguered, abused wives.

As far as I can tell nobody criticizing the show calls out or even mentions other viewers while doing so (though I will happily engage in meta-bickering after the fact, if called out on something), yet seemingly every claim to 'turn off your brain', just enjoy the show for what it is and reject criticism, seems to come attached to an unnecessary question of the ability for joy, intelligence and/or existential worth of folks who criticize the show....which sounds ridiculous, insulting and particularly contradictory from my perspective.

Exactly this. It just seems like a "why aren't you enjoying this show the way I do" type of criticism. Unless you think everything is fine, and I doubt that is anyone, everyone has criticized at least one thing the show has done. It's just that people want to criticize only some things but get all strange when people criticize it another way, as if their suspension of disbelief is the only one that matters. In addition, it seems very strange to me that people don't understand that some people engage with media in this critical way (Hell, it's probably the only reason I still watch GoT on Sundays when it comes out, so I can discuss it the next day).

Anyways... since it's Season Finale Day in 3 days, what are folks' predictions? These are mine:

- There is the BIG HUGE MEETING(tm) in KL. Cersei and Jamie realize the threat is real with the wight, but Cersei is really only willing to go as far as calling a truce, but not really send any troops north (and maybe even plan for after the war against the dead by getting that Golden Company contract set up).
- Jamie decides to go North anyway after being convinced by Brienne (perhaps leads to a slight falling out between Jamie and Cersei)
- Littlefinger dies. One of the Stark girls finally realizes that Bran can see things and Bran says, oh yeah, I got some stuff.
- Speaking of Bran, he tells someone about who Jon really is - maybe even Jon if he is going through Winterfell on his way back up to the Wall.
- Before Jon, Daenerys & Co. can make it back up to the Wall, Night King riding Viserion uses dragon fire to break a hole in the Wall that the dead stream through (perhaps with the shocked face of Tormund or Beric framing the shot)
- Euron and Theon don't do anything all that interesting (though Euron may be pissed that Cersei is preggo... if he's invited to BIG HUGE MEETING(tm))

[SteveM58]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Even stories about magic need to have their own internal logic. I think just about anyone would be pissed if intergalactic aliens suddenly arrived and killed all the characters and few would say why are you bickering, it's a fantasy show? So I do think it is valid to say, hey the rules of this story established that that can't happen.

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Exactly right. When you establish the methods of communication, the harshness of particular environments, and the time it takes to travel (by foot) through said environments....and then you flippantly disregard 6+ years of establishing such things without communicating "reasons" for violating those methods....it causes cognitive dissonance for some viewers.

Such as seeing Cersei shapechange into a 50 ft tall lion to take on Dany & Drogon. It would violate everything we've come to understand about how this world works. If there were some sort of exposition or foreshadowing to suggest that was "a thing" in this world...thats fine. If it happened early on...again thats fine because they would be establishing what is possible in this world.

But some people notice those dissonant concepts while watching. And we like to talk about them in case there are valid reasons for them to occur that we may have missed. Or discuss why there were better ways to handle that plothole. It doesn't mean we aren't enjoying the show. It means we enjoy it differently than some others might. And who really cares anyway? Ignore the conversations that don't peak your interest.

These meta-conversations get old. Seems to be the same conversation for every show. Sorry for the rant but it seems like it has to be said every time.

[Honolulu_Blue]

This season has been a lot of fun and has had some great, amazing moments, but also has been pretty sloppy.

I didn't mind the alleged "fast travel" that occurred through the first five episodes of the show. Other than maybe Euron's ability to move around so swiftly and omnisciently, most of what happened didn't bother me, because it seemed to be grounded enough in the show's reality that it was plausible, even if it was not entirely probable.

This last episode definitely strained it. I loved the episode because it had some great action, fantastic acting, amazing dialogue, and dealt succinctly and quite nicely with a lot of lingering story lines (pretty much all the interactions among those north of The Wall). I really liked fight, the dragon, all of that.

That said, they really did play far too fast and loose with timing and distance. They should have put a little more thought into it. It would have taken some work, but I think they could have built the same level of drama while making things "work" in that universe. They didn't and, as a result, things felt off and forced.

I had actually forgotten about poor Uncle Benjen. It's entirely possible that he'd be around, because it makes sense for him to be tracking the army of the dead. But that, too, seemed really forced and out of left field.

The show has definitely amped things up and accelerated the pact of events since departing from the books. Some of it's been great, some of it has not been great.

Overall, I love the show. I think it's a marvel. This is my favorite series of books. I've read the first three five or six times each, the fourth probably four times, though the fifth only once, because, sadly, it was a rough fucking go. I never imagined we'd get a show of such quality from these books. It's been an incredible feat. There have been missteps, but, to be honest, there have been a lot of missteps in the last two books, as well. The missteps seem to be coming from opposite ends.

The problem with the last two books is that Martin seems to have lost focused. They have been meandering and not terribly interesting. It's not been all bad, there are still many things I like about them, but they do pale in comparison to the first three books. It's a lot of mush and things are spreading further and further where they should be tightening to a resolution. With the show, things have been accelerating almost too fast. With characters and story line getting wrapped up at a blistering, sometimes forced, pace at times.

At the end of the day, the show doesn't impact how I feel or how I enjoy the books. I see them as connected, but separate.

[stevew]

Eh, it's just like a game like Fallout 3 where you go slowly on foot for the first 3 quarters of the game. But by the end you're fast traveling everywhere.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I think a more logical way to script a dragon for the white walkers would have been for Jon to tell Danny that if she doesn't believe there's white walkers, go see for yourself. I think the reason they chose the route they did was more to get that particular 'Magnificent 7' together for some scenes and some screen time.

Also, she wouldn't have gone. She's already suspicious of Westerosi trying to usurp/kill her, there's no way she'd fly away on a dragon because he told her to see these things she doesn't really believe in.

The main problem is, the writers were writing books into TV shows and they had an insane amount of info they could pick and choose from. Now, they're out of books and turned to what they know, writing a TV show.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I think a more logical way to script a dragon for the white walkers would have been for Jon to tell Danny that if she doesn't believe there's white walkers, go see for yourself. I think the reason they chose the route they did was more to get that particular 'Magnificent 7' together for some scenes and some screen time.

I agree with Easy Mac there needed to be a different way, but totally agree on the 2nd part. Let's bring Gendry back, give him some fan service with the Warhammer... Then hand it off to The Hound & go run a marathon to the wall? Like someone else said, having Bran have a vision & send the raven would've solved a lot of the timing issues & given him a useful role connected to the plot for once.

Everything else feels rushed compared to the first few seasons, and it comes down to the dumbest decision by the writers - to go with 13 episodes instead of accepting HBO's offer of 20. But hey, maybe they knew they were terrible writers & we're better off for it.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

The main problem is, the writers were writing books into TV shows and they had an insane amount of info they could pick and choose from. Now, they're out of books and turned to what they know, writing a TV show.

I wonder if they would have pursued this project had they known that they'd be writing the last 25% of the story themselves.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I had actually forgotten about poor Uncle Benjen. It's entirely possible that he'd be around, because it makes sense for him to be tracking the army of the dead. But that, too, seemed really forced and out of left field.

It would have been easy to fix this too. Just have a guy on horseback on a cliff, semi-close up shot so you can't tell who it is, the rider rides off. The Seven Westerosi (and the viewers) think that it's a scout for the Army of the Dead (then they hear the Army of the Dead and Gendry is sent on his marathon). Then Uncle Benjen shows up later and the reaction is "Oh shit, that guy was actually Benjen!" instead of "LOL, Benjen Ex Machina!!"

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I agree with Easy Mac there needed to be a different way, but totally agree on the 2nd part. Let's bring Gendry back, give him some fan service with the Warhammer... Then hand it off to The Hound & go run a marathon to the wall? Like someone else said, having Bran have a vision & send the raven would've solved a lot of the timing issues & given him a useful role connected to the plot for once.

Everything else feels rushed compared to the first few seasons, and it comes down to the dumbest decision by the writers - to go with 13 episodes instead of accepting HBO's offer of 20. But hey, maybe they knew they were terrible writers & we're better off for it.

Terrible writers? Terrible? Really? I do not think this word means what you think it means.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Terrible writers? Terrible? Really? I do not think this word means what you think it means.

Definitely not terrible. But there has been a huge downward turn in storytelling quality now that they've passed the source material. Truly baffling in moments, and disappointing, but not terrible by any stretch IMO.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Anyways... since it's Season Finale Day in 3 days, what are folks' predictions?

1) Cersei goes along with the plan, even going so far as to seem overly accommodating. Really she is just trying to set a trap. Her reasoning will be that the Army of the Dead would never make it beyond the Neck anyway, and the North is nothing but people loyal to those troublesome Starks so fuck 'em. She'll be leader of the Six Kingdoms and the Night King can have the North for all she cares.
2) Keep going back and forth on which Stark will kill Littlefinger. I wonder if the showrunners have the balls to have Sansa do it instead of Arya.
3) Why would the Hound be heading back to King's Landing instead of anyone else? He has every reason to stay the fuck away from that city....Oh, that's right. CLEGANEBOWL!!! (this one might be more wish-list than prediction)
4) Sam will find something in the books he stole, but the information will come too late...
5) The last shot of the episode will be the Wall coming down.

[ISiddiqui]

Oh man, I'd love Cleganebowl. But part of me really wanted the Hound to die and become a wight and thus have undead Cleganebowl... oh well.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Radii

Definitely not terrible. But there has been a huge downward turn in storytelling quality now that they've passed the source material. Truly baffling in moments, and disappointing, but not terrible by any stretch IMO.

Let's face it, the very exact same could be said of most of the storytelling quality in the source material itself after Storm of Swords.

[Edward64]

Nice (multiple) family get-together.

... and a great Dany entrance

[Neon_Chaos]

Feels so fucking awesome to finally get answers.

[ISiddiqui]

Well that's a way to end a season (the last scene most definitely)!! Nothing terribly surprising, but everything was well done (esp some of the acting - the scene with Dinklage and Headley in Cersei's chambers was the high point, IMO)

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[Coffee Warlord]

Tormund, when the Wall fell.

[Edward64]

Good, solid episode.

Glad Littlefinger and that arc is done. Cersei is getting old with her scheming. Yay for Jaime.

Jon and Dany is getting more complex. It'll be fun to see what happens next season.

How does dragon ice/fire bring down a wall?

[Radii]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Well that's a way to end a season! Nothing terribly surprising, but everything was well done (esp some of the acting - the scene with Dinklage and Headley in Cersei's camera was the high point, IMO)

Completely agree. You don't need a bunch of twists for it to be good, you just need to tell a good story, and I think the finale was really solid all the way through.


LOVE that Cersei had two people call her bluff and she couldn't pull the trigger either time, btw.

[Neon_Chaos]

It's going to be a long ass wait for season 8. Haha

[sabotai]

Season ended on a high note. That was a great episode.

Littlefinger didn't take his own advise. He didn't imagine every possible scenario. That's what happens when you think with your dick.

[General Mike]

The Sam-Bran scene was so weird. Well compared to the previous episode where Gilly read about Rhaegar getting an annulment and Sam just completely ignoring him.
ALS o this Theon storyline is doing nothing for me. NOTHING!

[Honolulu_Blue]

So, I guess we're to assume Tormund and Beric died when The Wall fell? That sucks.

Great episode.

[bhlloy]

Great episode overall, I agree. Pretty sure they foreshadowed the death of Arya in the last scene between the sisters.

Who has Yara - Cersei or Euron?

[sabotai]

One thing I am disappointed about is that we didn't get a quick shot of Ellaria Sand looking at her long dead daughter in jail cell.

I mean, you can't have a scene like that in the beginning of the season, and then in the final episode of the year not have Cercei casually stroll by and look in.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Who has Yara - Cersei or Euron?

Euron

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

So, I guess we're to assume Tormund and Beric died when The Wall fell? That sucks.

I don't think so. They show a quick shot of Tormund watching the wall give out a few feet from him. I think that was a nod that he was on the part of the wall that didn't fall. In the wide shot right after, the far side of the wall stayed standing as the wall collapsed towards the sea (towards the camera). It was confusing because they kept switching perspective (looking at the wall from the south side vs. looking at the wall from the north side).

[bhlloy]

So what, he's just hiding from the 100k strong army of the dead that is wandering over the now destroyed wall? That would be a bit lame.

I'm also not loving the direction the Theon arc is going in. Seems like his big redemption is coming that will have huge implications for the story.

[mauchow]

FOR ASHA!

I mean Yara!

[MrBug708]

What was up with Tyrion and the long linger? Second thoughts?

[Arles]

Great episode, glad I ignored this thread since Thursday as Imran's post would have been little too prophetic for me to see beforehand That said, it was some nice predicting!

Can't Bran just see Cersei's plan? Not sure it matters though, the wall going down changes everything. Love the Littlefinger zag and all the actions made sense to me. Should be a great final season!

[Arles]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

What was up with Tyrion and the long linger? Second thoughts?

Maybe he sees his role as less important with Jon and Dany together. It appears Dany may be "seeking counsel" elsewhere.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

What was up with Tyrion and the long linger? Second thoughts?

"If you had asked me, I would have counseled it. Not like this."

I think he knows they're about to knock boots, and while he doesn't have anything against Jon - er, Aegon - I think he worries about whether Dany is making sound decisions or is influenced by lust.

Eh, we'll see.

[MrBug708]

Since Aegon is back, is Jon Connington back too?

Jaime joining the black?

[Vince, Pt. II]

My rambling thoughts on the episode:

This felt like the Hallmark Channel episode of Game of Thrones. All of the good guys getting theirs and nothing super bad happening - at least until the end.

Jaime as a free agent took me out of left field, and I love that he called her bluff. Excited to see where he ends up and what Bronn does about it.

That's sadly about the only plot-twisty thing in the entire episode that was not predictable. The acting was top notch pretty much the whole way through - as noted above, the Cersei/Tyrion scene was phenomenal, but bonus points for the Samwell/Bran scene near the end. Sam's facial expressions were awesome. I think the Cersei and Euron deception was well-played, though I think they oversold it a little with how quickly he left and how little fanfare there was. I mean no one bats an eye that the entire Lannister fleet is just going to leave?

It seemed obvious that we were going to have a redemption moment/arc for Theon (else why is he still alive/in the show), but I sadly have zero fucks to give about him so it's hard to be excited that we get more of it. Thought it was entertaining that they gave him a nut shot - thought the second through fourth ones were perhaps a little overkill. Kind of disappointed that the set-up with him seems to be priming for a rather pivotal role in the end-game; The whole "Greyjoy AND a Stark" thing was a little too heavy-handed for me.

Not sure what to make of the lingering stare Tyrion gave the bedroom...I mean, he DID just advise her that the succession is important, but the dirty look maybe implies he's got a thing for her?

Very disappointed that Varys had pretty much no impact here; diplomacy and political maneuvering is sort of his bread and butter, so if not here and now, what the hell is he still around for?

[stevew]

Thought the ice dragon thing at the end was super cheesy and briefly made me wonder why i'd ever considered watching this show

[SteveM58]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

What was up with Tyrion and the long linger? Second thoughts?

Yeah that was unexpected a little. Maybe it's as simple as him being concerned that Dany is making decisions based on emotions and susceptible to making really bad decisions like his sister.

Or perhaps they are setting up a future storyline where Tyrion fulfills the betrayal in Dany's dreams in the house of the undying. Though I think Jorah is probably the fulfillment of that already so less likely (even putting aside how awesome Tyrion is).

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I may be letting the book lead my thinking here, and the method for doing this has not yet been made known, but I think the last episode is going to end on a killer scene.

I thought about what it could be. It won't be something simple like the army of the dead gathering at the foot of the Wall, and it seems unlikely to be a battle scene, since the sides are temporarily on hold while Jon & crew go off wight hunting. And even though Sansa-Arya-Littlefinger is likely to blow up in the next couple episodes, it's not big enough.

So, my gut says, somehow, the Wall comes down in Episode 7. That is the last scene the show will leave us before signing off.

Said this after Episode 5 (pre-Ice Dragon). Mic drop...

[Coffee Warlord]

Sam's facial expressions and reactions while Bran was talking were hilarious.

[Groundhog]

I thought that was the best written episode of the season, and lots of good dialogue. Arya/Littlefinger/Sansa arc was wrapped up very nicely, and I wasn't sure which way it was going to go until it did.

Outside of that I thought it was predictable until Cersei revealed her hand. I thought the whole uniting with the invaders and riding north thing seemed in line with what we'd seen lately re: the writing, so I'm happy that didn't prove to be the case.

I can think of a few reasons for the Creepy Tyrion scene. Not sure I'd want my queen tied to a Stark (as far as everyone is aware, anyway) for one given their "truth over all" stance on everything. But by the same token Jon might be a better counterweight than he is, too.