Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[Mota]

I'm going to see 2 live WWE shows in September. September 9th seeing Raw house show in Barrie Ontario, and September 13th seeing Smackdown taping in Toronto. Should be cool. I'm in the 5th row of the back floors for the WWE house show (and hopefully I successfully picked the entrance aisle for my son), and 5th row for Smackdown.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

wow - from hottest angle in a decade to dead in 1 week. they killed that faster than the first Nexus run.

I don't know how they killed it. They definitely could have held out a bit longer and had a better build. But the story is interesting and rather unpredictable.

A lot of the dirtsheets seem to be leaning toward Del Rio cashing in at some point, perhaps after HHH attacks Punk. Thus setting up HHH as a heel GM (he does play a great heel) and going up against Punk. Sort of a new age Vince-Stone Cold with HHH being the corporate heel and Punk being the anti-hero.

Makes sense too since they won't make Cena look vulnerable for long and understand they have to make the kids happy. So it'd let them have Cena-Del Rio battle out for the marks and HHH-Punk for the smarks.

And for all the shit I've given them over the years, they turned Punk into a legitimate main eventer in the course of a month or two. They built a star that can headline a PPV. They haven't been able to do that in a long time. You can argue about whether Punk deserves more credit or not, but they put him over Cena at a PPV, got incredible buzz, did it in an incredible atmosphere, and turned Punk's character into a cult icon. That's a long way from Punk jobbing for a year straight on PPVs.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And for all the shit I've given them over the years, they turned Punk into a legitimate main eventer in the course of a month or two. They built a star that can headline a PPV. They haven't been able to do that in a long time. You can argue about whether Punk deserves more credit or not, but they put him over Cena at a PPV, got incredible buzz, did it in an incredible atmosphere, and turned Punk's character into a cult icon. That's a long way from Punk jobbing for a year straight on PPVs.

I'll agree with that for sure. I think that Punk would deserve a lot of that credit, it feels very personal, and very unlike what Gewertz would write. You can recognize that material from a mile away.

But for sure, CM Punk is way more over now than he was a month ago and so I'll give WWE credit for that.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

Mysterio delivered big-time tonight in two matches, he's still got it.

Wasn't the Cena / Mysterio match great on Monday? I was really impressed for a TV match.

[Neon_Chaos]

Bill Simmons interviews CM Punk

The B.S. Report: 7/27 - ESPN

[RainMaker]

Punk's gimmick was going over so well that they apparently gave it to Cena.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Punk's gimmick was going over so well that they apparently gave it to Cena.

sigh, god cena cant help but shit on other people.

[Schmidty]

Cena can't catch a break with the "cool kids" fans. I totally understand how sick of him some people are, but it's not like he's just going to go away.

[Toddzilla]

Unless HHH becomes the guy that both Cena and Punk hate (and vice versa), this angle is going nowhere. A HHH+Cena alliance would create a giant vortex of suck.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Cena can't catch a break with the "cool kids" fans. I totally understand how sick of him some people are, but it's not like he's just going to go away.

It's not that, it's having Cena come out and give an anti-establishment promo when the entire feud has been built around the fact that Cena is the establishment. It'd be like having Stone Cold feud with someone and have that guy come out and cut a Stone Cold promo.

Cena's character was perfect for this feud and they got too scared of the boos. Let each characted be themselves for once, stop trying to manufacture shit. It hurts Punk when his gimmick is anti-establishment and there is no more establishment to rage against. Someone has to be the establishment, whether it's HHH, Cena, etc.

[Maple Leafs]

So to summarize, since MITB we've had:
- one character who would be fired if he lost (lost, not fired)
- a one-night tournament to crown a new champion (not done in one night)
- a new champion from that tournament's dramatic conclusion (lost the title back to the old guy an hour later)
- one character quit the company and promise to never return (already returned)
- the dramatic, stunning exit of Vince McMahon as the corporate suit heel authority figure (already replaced by a new corporate suit heel authority figure)

Gosh, can't understand why fans don't buy into angles any more. Must be the internet's fault.

[Mota]

Imagine watching a whole season of NXT to see who wins a tag team title match, and then when Johnny Curtis wins, they just forget about the whole thing.

That's like a season of Survivor where the company decides to not pay the million bucks that the winner earned.

Or how about season 2 of NXT where the fans liked Kaval and he won the whole thing, but the WWE didn't like him so they spent months trying to bury him and prove that the fans are wrong.

I can't understand why nobody watches NXT anymore. This was supposed to change the face of wrestling.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

- one character quit the company and promise to never return (already returned)

As cool as the angle was, this wrecked it. It's basically the equivalent of Cena getting fired last year and not missing a single week of TV.

They could have spent a few weeks playing up that the title was gone, and the uncertainty around it. And THEN you put together a tournament once you realize that he's not coming back. But they were so obsessed with the McMahon saga and the rise of HHH that everything else was thrown together to promote that agenda. Punk ended up being gone for ONE WEEK.

SLOW DOWN WWE. They have so few matchups that feel fresh, yet when they stumble upon a great storyline like this one, they have to rush it through because they want a big Summerslam rating.

I still think that they can put something great together for this storyline, but once again just like the Nexus angle it feels like they're picking the worst possible option to tell the story with. They started the storyline with greatness, so hopefully they can rescue it.

[Comey]

^Agreed, with all of it.

[Ksyrup]

Apologies if this has already been posted - not exactly a fan of wrestling.

http://

[Suicane75]

That girl sells better than any Diva.

[Toddzilla]

I <3 Kenny Omega

[DeToxRox]

WWE is releasing workers today. So far PWI has confirmed:

Melina, Gail Kim, Vladimir Kozlov, Chris Masters and D.H Smith

[DeToxRox]

WWE is bringing Sin Cara back to TV, except developmental talent Hunico will be under the mask this time.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

WWE is releasing workers today. So far PWI has confirmed:

Melina, Gail Kim, Vladimir Kozlov, Chris Masters and D.H Smith

John Morrison threw a fit when Melina was excluded from Mania in favor of Snooki (even though nobody has cared about Melina in 5 years and Snooki might be a better athlete). It wouldn't shock me to see him do something stupid here.

Edit: I don't know if anyone caught this on RAW, but Gail Kim was in that battle royal and just kind of left right when it started.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

WWE is bringing Sin Cara back to TV, except developmental talent Hunico will be under the mask this time.

Really? As long as Hunico can do a couple of flips and speak English it will be an upgrade.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Edit: I don't know if anyone caught this on RAW, but Gail Kim was in that battle royal and just kind of left right when it started.

She had a pretty funny tweet about that later, something to the effect that she did it because that was the easiest way to do what she was told to do, which was to get out of the ring in under a minute. She commented that basically no one backstage even noticed at the time.

I guess they figured it out later.

That was always a bad fit & probably every side of the equation knew that all along, I'm just glad she got paid decently for a while. I've seen more than my fair share of women in the ring over the years, from divas to joshi monsters but I've never seen one that was any more impressive working with men than she did during the Styles/Daniels vs AMW feud. It felt credible & elevated her considerably in my eyes at the time.

[Matthean]

I'm not sure the WWE knows what to do with a diva if she doesn't have the ability to land on the cover of Playboy.

[Mota]

If that 9 year old girl from the Youtube video was given a chance, she'd be the top Diva in the WWE pretty easily! She's already about 400 times better than Rosa and Kelly Kelly.

[RainMaker]

Not sure why WWE bothered to sign Kim in the first place. They aren't really in the business of women's wrestilng and signed one of the best in the business. I mean, Kelly Kelly is the champ, that's a huge joke.

I'd rather see them drop the division altogether and just use the Divas as valets and such.

[RainMaker]

Everyone gave great promos at the end. Really looking forward to SummerSlam.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Everyone gave great promos at the end. Really looking forward to SummerSlam.

Agreed. Can't wait to see how this story develops over the next few weeks and months, before finally building up to the eventual big payoff.

Oh, you mean it's next week? Sigh.

[DeToxRox]

For those old school fans, at midnight EST tomorrow the JCW Legends and Icons show at the Gathering of the Juggaloes is going to be on iPPV for like 5 bucks. I hate ICP and the Juggaloes, but the Main Event is Terry Funk vs Roddy Piper in an I Quit Match.

Bob Backlund vs Ken Patera, Tito Santana vs Greg Valentine inside a cage and a ton of other guys are also on the show.

Hall & Nash vs Billy Gunn and Road Dogg is also being advertised but I don't think anyone expects it to happen.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

John Morrison threw a fit when Melina was excluded from Mania in favor of Snooki (even though nobody has cared about Melina in 5 years and Snooki might be a better athlete). It wouldn't shock me to see him do something stupid here.

Edit: I don't know if anyone caught this on RAW, but Gail Kim was in that battle royal and just kind of left right when it started.

I started watching Jersey Shore recently (yeah yeah make fun of me), and I tell you that Snooki is 100x more of a character than Melina. After watching Snooki do that springboard corner move at WM it definitely seems like it was the right choice.

[Mota]

Whatever happened to face turns and heel turns in the WWE? It seems they rarely turn wrestlers anymore. Look at Sheamus, he's a heel and all of a sudden they put him up against heels and we're supposed to cheer for him. But why? And why not make a bigger deal of it?

You can say the same for many wrestlers. Randy Orton, MVP, Kane, for no reason you were just supposed to start cheering for them because they were going up against heels now.

I think they did a great job with R-Truth, he had a lot of extra momentum caused by the turn, which is the whole point of it. Mark Henry as well, they've taken that opportunity to push him from that turn. But if someone is going to turn face I'd like to see a bit more of a storyline to get the fans into them, since they are used to booing them.

[DeToxRox]

Both title matches were great tonight but the show ending angle was so convoluted I can't help but imagine that the storyline is going down a windy road that ends with Stephanie being revealed as paying off Nash to try and help Hunter do his job and Hunter ends up going off on her.

[Toddzilla]

They just took shitting the bed to a whole 'nother level

[RainMaker]

I don't really know what to make of it. It wasn't a moment you cheered, wasn't a moment you booed, just a bunch of stuff happening and you look around wondering where it's going. Feels a lot like late WCW.

The two title matches were real good. The rest of the card was atrocious.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just finished reading the recap. Umm ... whatever?

A heel wins thanks to a conveniently blind ref, screwing over the face. Bookerman 101.

But that heel is essentially a face, the face is actually treated like a heel, we don't know if the ref is crooked or just inept.

Then we get a run-in from a heelish face / faceish heel, leading to a new champ that's the only clear cut character of the whole bunch ... which might be fine except for him being an completely uninteresting crap character that ain't much in the ring.

If I didn't know better I'd think Bischoff just booked SummerSlam.

[RainMaker]

The only thing I can think of is now they can put Cena and Punk together to take on the "Corporation". Might figure they have to have Cena attach himself to Punk's gimmick before he gets booed out of even more arenas.

I guess the weird thing for me is that I don't think the 2nd biggest PPV of the year should be the one bringing up new questions. It should be the event that resolves feuds. This is something you do at a smaller PPV to build buzz for the bigger ones.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The only thing I can think of is now they can put Cena and Punk together to take on the "Corporation".

Only to learn at some point that both Cena & Punk are actually now working for Vince.

[RainMaker]

They kept the Divas title on someone who can't even run the ropes correctly.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They kept the Divas title on someone who can't even run the ropes correctly.

I'm not convinced she could spell "ropes" correctly, much less run them.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Mota

Whatever happened to face turns and heel turns in the WWE? It seems they rarely turn wrestlers anymore. Look at Sheamus, he's a heel and all of a sudden they put him up against heels and we're supposed to cheer for him. But why? And why not make a bigger deal of it?

You can say the same for many wrestlers. Randy Orton, MVP, Kane, for no reason you were just supposed to start cheering for them because they were going up against heels now.

I think they did a great job with R-Truth, he had a lot of extra momentum caused by the turn, which is the whole point of it. Mark Henry as well, they've taken that opportunity to push him from that turn. But if someone is going to turn face I'd like to see a bit more of a storyline to get the fans into them, since they are used to booing them.

"Supposed to"?

I'm actually thinking that the path they are taking is much, much better than having defined roles and cookie cutter faces and heels.

Have them toe the grey area, give their characters motivations, and let the crowd decide if they're going to ride with it or not.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

"Supposed to"?

I'm actually thinking that the path they are taking is much, much better than having defined roles and cookie cutter faces and heels.

Have them toe the grey area, give their characters motivations, and let the crowd decide if they're going to ride with it or not.

I think there needs to be some that are clearly heels, some that are clearly faces, and then you can have some that toe the line and stay in that shade of grey.

True heels and faces make for more interesting stories IMO. Without them it can make things too convoluted and storylines just confusing.

It also doesn't make much sense with the way the WWE is telling stories right now. Their stories are really simple and short right now. The typical storyline carries out over the course of 1-2 PPVs. Yet they're trying to create these deep and difficult to read characters. The characters and storytelling just seem off in the WWE right now.


On a side note, I was talking to my son (9 years old) and I was telling him about Rey Mysterio's time in the WCW which led to a discussion on how the WCW went under. I basically summed it up by saying "they did stupid stuff that didn't make sense". To which he responded, "I don't know why TNA is still on TV. They're doing the same thing".

[Suicane75]

So let's count the lineage of the prestigious world title since 10pm on the day of Money In The Bank.

Cena
Punk
Mysterio
Cena
Punk
Del Rio

At this rate we'll have an exciting 65-70 title changes in the next year. Huzzah!

[molson]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

So let's count the lineage of the prestigious world title since 10pm on the day of Money In The Bank.

Cena
Punk
Mysterio
Cena
Punk
Del Rio

At this rate we'll have an exciting 65-70 title changes in the next year. Huzzah!

I forget the exact ratio but the number of former world champions on the roster compared to non-former champions is out of control, it's approaching half the roster.

I prefer much fewer title changes (and only one world champion), and I hate how every guy gets his turn with the belt - but of course when we had longer-term champions like HHH and Cena, everybody complains about that too (and those guys were both internet darlings before they got pushed - they'd be smart to keep CM Punk around the fringes of the world title if they want to keep him smark-friendly - if that's what they want).

As for the storyline, I get the feeling Stephanie is still working for her father and HHH is trying to be a regular/straight face GM. CM Punk v. The Clique and associates is another possibility (those guys surely have things to talk about and a "natural" animosity). It's been a while since we've had a really screwy/uncertain PPV ending, they don't overuse that device and I'm curious to see where they go with it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

I forget the exact ratio but the number of former world champions on the roster compared to non-former champions is out of control, it's approaching half the roster

Somebody with more patience than me can count the "superstars" to get a total roster figure but as for champions ...

WWE Champions (the classic belt that goes back to Buddy Rogers)
Del Rio, Cena, Mysterio, Punk, Miz, Orton, Sheamus, Trips, Big Show ('02), 'Taker('02), Jericho ('01) and Rock ('01)

World HW Champions (the new belt introduced in 2002)
Orton, Christian, Ziggler, Kane, Mysterio, Swagger, Jericho, Khali, 'Taker, Punk, and Trips ('05)

So by my count, that's 17 different guys who have had at least one "world" belt on the other currently on the roster.
(updated to add Khali, who I had forgotten was still active)

edit to add: The Wiki roster page (which appears to be very updated, includes Nash) has 26 workers on Raw and 24 on Smackdown.
So my count gets 17 out of 50 at the moment (counting Rock who isn't officially on either roster)

edit again: By comparison, looks like the TNA roster has 41 active male wrestlers. Of those, their world championship has been on:
Angle, Sting, Anderson, J.Hardy, RVD, Styles, Joe, plus Abyss and Jarrett who held the NWA version but never the TNA-only version. That's 9 of 41, plus Flair & Hogan who aren't currently active wrestlers.

[Maple Leafs]

So the fresh and exciting Punk storyline ran for six weeks, and has now apparently lead to an angle that will be built around McMahon family fueding over control of the company. Woot.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

So the fresh and exciting Punk storyline ran for six weeks, and has now apparently lead to an angle that will be built around McMahon family fueding over control of the company. Woot.

I don't think anything's over with regard to punk, they're just adding different players. Cena may also be due for some time off....How would you have booked a 6 month cena/punk feud (with nobody else involved) with ppvs to sell every month?

I really don't think we're heading towards hhh v. Vince or anything, why not give it a chance?

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

World HW Champions (the new belt introduced in 2002)
Orton, Christian, Ziggler, Kane, Mysterio, Swagger, Jericho, Khali, 'Taker, Punk, and Trips ('05)

Isn't that the belt that Booker T won in WCW and brought over when the WWE bought WCW out? So do you get more guys that way?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Isn't that the belt that Booker T won in WCW and brought over when the WWE bought WCW out? So do you get more guys that way?

I just ran quickly with the WWE's description of the title & the official title history on their website.

If we connect that to the WCW title won on the final Monday Nitro 3/26 (three days after the purchase), we get the same guys though.

Booker -> Angle -> Booker -> Rock -> Jericho -> Rock -> Jericho (unification match with the old WWF title)

edit to add: If you go back through the history of that title (WCW belt from '91 onward), the only person on the WWE roster that you would add is Nash (Big Show is already listed).

Other former WCW champs still active in some fashion are all with TNA: Jarrett, Steiner, Flair, Sting and Hogan.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Other former WCW champs still active in some fashion are all with TNA: Jarrett, Steiner, Flair, Sting and Hogan.

wow, that sentence speaks volumes, doesn't it?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

wow, that sentence speaks volumes, doesn't it?

A-yup.

As does this: Of the 17 TNA World Heavyweight Title reigns (2007-present), only 2 have been by "TNA guys" (Samoa Joe & A.J. Styles).

The rest are
WWE - Angle, Foley, J.Hardy, Ken Anderson
WCW - Sting
ECW - RVD

Prior to that, with the NWA World Title as TNA's top belt (2002-2007) there were 18 reigns
TNA - Styles 3x, Ron Killings twice, Abyss once
ECW - Raven & Rhino
WCW - Sting
WWE - Shamrock, Christian (twice)

Not sure how to count Jarrett's 6 reigns in that, TNA ownership/mgmt role but was also a WCW/WWF guy prior

[DeToxRox]

Two random Wellness Suspensions today.

Referee Mike Chioda and Tough Enough winner Andy Levine.