Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[Mota]

9:20 and haven't started watching Raw yet but I bet it starts with Alberto saying "It was my destiny!!!". Just sayin'.

The record has been skipping for months now, stuck on the same line. Hopefully now that he's the champ he'll have something new to say.

But I'm looking forward to tuning in and seeing what is happening with the McMahon family and where the power will be shifting to. So glad that CM Punk has caused change by taking a week off.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Mota

9:20 and haven't started watching Raw yet but I bet it starts with Alberto saying "It was my destiny!!!". Just sayin'.

Come on now, they could have lead off with the John Cena "I'm not going to complain because I'm a swell guy" speech.

[Mota]

HHH lead it off so we were both wrong. Although there was a lot of destiny talk, but you don't exactly need to be a mind reader to predict that.

[DeToxRox]

Punk was awesome just now. Nash on the other hand .. well, he was not.

[molson]

This image is maybe to big to post in-thread, but, it's worth checking out....The Titanic Taxonomy of Wrestling Names

http://www.thehighdefinite.com/wp-co...lers_Zoom3.jpg

[RainMaker]

We didn't think Cena would stay out of the title scene, did we?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Come on now, they could have lead off with the John Cena "I'm not going to complain because I'm a swell guy" speech.

It's funny because on another board I go to everyone's whining because Cena complained about Del Rio cashing in the MITB briefcase when he essentially did the same thing to Mysterio a few weeks ago...Cena was definitely right about it not mattering what he does at this point.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

It's funny because on another board I go to everyone's whining because Cena complained about Del Rio cashing in the MITB briefcase when he essentially did the same thing to Mysterio a few weeks ago...Cena was definitely right about it not mattering what he does at this point.

I don't even know if they are trying with his promos anymore. He comes out and bashes ADR for cashing in and "stealing" the title from Punk and not earning it. Although Punk had done that in the past and was OK with it. Not to mention, he earned the MitB briefcase which gave him the right to do it. He also never seemed to have a beef with people cashing in like this before.

He basically calls him a coward and says he'll get whats coming to him when he defends the title someday. Despite the fact he just defended the title and won cleanly minutes before against Rey. It was just a horrible speech that made no sense. But they weren't about to go a PPV without Cena in a title match.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't even know if they are trying with his promos anymore. He comes out and bashes ADR for cashing in and "stealing" the title from Punk and not earning it. Although Punk had done that in the past and was OK with it. Not to mention, he earned the MitB briefcase which gave him the right to do it. He also never seemed to have a beef with people cashing in like this before.

He basically calls him a coward and says he'll get whats coming to him when he defends the title someday. Despite the fact he just defended the title and won cleanly minutes before against Rey. It was just a horrible speech that made no sense. But they weren't about to go a PPV without Cena in a title match.

The "someday you'll have to defend the title" line was obviously a slip-up but the rest of it was just a frustrated and angry Cena - I just thought it was funny that before the show there was that prediction that we'd get "aw shucks good guy" Cena, when here - he was actually pissed off when ADR had every right to do what he did - and then of course everyone complains about that too.

IDK - the slipups and the occasional logic breakdowns just don't bother me. I really don't think the product that so many in this thread and on the internet demands, through the nitpicking every week, has ever actually existed in any promotion, in any year. I'm glad I just have lower standards for my sports entertainment I suppose. TNA has too much going on too quickly, ROH bores me to tears - I continue to be clueless about the hate but that's been my schtick in this thread since 2006 (when everyone, in retrospect, of course thinks everything was amazing). I do think you have to suspend your disbelief a little, and enjoy the really bad stuff as being oddly entertaining in it's own campy way to hang with this stuff for very long. It sure as hell ain't high-brow entertainment and I couldn't disagree with anyone that called it stupid.....I am bewildered when trying to figure out exactly what would make them happy in a the pro wrestling universe though. (And we have a level of wrestling today in the WWE that we NEVER had from 1985-2003...2003-2004 was the peak of "wrestling" in the WWE, but it also marked the decline of business.....not a coincidence....amazingly, they didn't abandon wrestling and we've still gotten great wrestling in most main events and some of the midcard ever since....)

Edit: Sin Cara #2 is one example of this. You can be pissed off and annoyed that they're using a guy with a completely different build as Sin Cara for one week for no apparent reason - or you can check it out to see it play out, and if it's terrible, laugh at it. I just don't get the anger over stuff like that, or silly pro wrestling booking in general.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

It's funny because on another board I go to everyone's whining because Cena complained about Del Rio cashing in the MITB briefcase when he essentially did the same thing to Mysterio a few weeks ago...Cena was definitely right about it not mattering what he does at this point.

You are correct. He can lose the title one PPV, lose the rematch the next PPV, and somehow he's the one getting the title shot and not CM Punk. How much sense does that make?

I'm just at a loss to understand what their goal is with Cena right now. Wrestlemania is in Miami and not a single person will be cheering for him. It'll be like Chicago all over again. They're setting him up for failure right now and he's failing. He's a face that can't get cheered. So do they turn him heel before Wrestlemania? The crazy thing is that a heel Cena would probably get cheered just as much as the face one!

[RainMaker]

My main problem with the promo is he had nothing to be mad at ADR about. ADR didn't attack him, didn't attack Punk after the match, didn't make a mistake officiating the match. He simply cashed in a briefcase that he earned at MitB.

It was just shitty logic to create this fake beef with ADR just so you could keep Cena in the title picture for another 6 months.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mota

You are correct. He can lose the title one PPV, lose the rematch the next PPV, and somehow he's the one getting the title shot and not CM Punk. How much sense does that make?

I'm just at a loss to understand what their goal is with Cena right now. Wrestlemania is in Miami and not a single person will be cheering for him. It'll be like Chicago all over again. They're setting him up for failure right now and he's failing. He's a face that can't get cheered. So do they turn him heel before Wrestlemania? The crazy thing is that a heel Cena would probably get cheered just as much as the face one!

How would you book Cena right now? Would you try to get him cheered v. Rock in Miami at Mania, and how would you go about that?

I do know a lot of people want Cena to turn heel, and I understand that, but the business he does with the casual/kid audience is enormous, I can also understand the hesitation with throwing that away.

We are not the fans that bring money to the company, we're not the fans that buy PPVs enough to make a difference (as proven by the MITB buyrate), and we are not the fans that buy merchandise. Superman Cean v. Umaga/Khali/Lashley (that "reign of terror" streak he went on on B-PPVs a few years back during his long title reign) did better buyrates the internet fan-dream PPV at MITB. But they're still pushing this Punk thing, at least to some degree, really just to placate the hardcore fans for bit....and then they won't buy the PPVs anyway. MITB would have drawn better if it were just Super-Cena v. some monster they built up...that's just the facts, that's what sells to the casual audience.....I don't envy the WWE's position, but at the very least, we continuously get great matches out of it no matter what they do (I was a fan when we got Mabel v. Kevin Nash main events, it's still unbelievable to me to see what we get on PPV and even free TV now). I mean, even Rock is very limited in-ring as was Austin post-neck break.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

How would you book Cena right now? Would you try to get him cheered v. Rock in Miami at Mania, and how would you go about that?

I do know a lot of people want Cena to turn heel, and I understand that, but the business he does with the casual/kid audience is enormous, I can also understand the hesitation with throwing that away.

I really have no idea. I feel they're in a lose / lose position right now. Of course, it's a lose / lose position where they'll make a ton of cash, but I see it damaging their #1 star. I feel that everytime they put him in a situation where he gets a lot of boos, it becomes easier and easier for the fans to boo him. I'd try to avoid the Miami / Chicago situations altogether ... Hulk Hogan would never let that happen in the 80's and Cena is essentially this decade's Hogan.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

How would you book Cena right now? Would you try to get him cheered v. Rock in Miami at Mania, and how would you go about that?

I do know a lot of people want Cena to turn heel, and I understand that, but the business he does with the casual/kid audience is enormous, I can also understand the hesitation with throwing that away.

We are not the fans that bring money to the company, we're not the fans that buy PPVs enough to make a difference (as proven by the MITB buyrate), and we are not the fans that buy merchandise. Superman Cean v. Umaga/Khali/Lashley (that "reign of terror" streak he went on on B-PPVs a few years back during his long title reign) did better buyrates the internet fan-dream PPV at MITB. But they're still pushing this Punk thing, at least to some degree, really just to placate the hardcore fans for bit....and then they won't buy the PPVs anyway. MITB would have drawn better if it were just Super-Cena v. some monster they built up...that's just the facts, that's what sells to the casual audience.....I don't envy the WWE's position, but at the very least, we continuously get great matches out of it no matter what they do (I was a fan when we got Mabel v. Kevin Nash main events, it's still unbelievable to me to see what we get on PPV and even free TV now). I mean, even Rock is very limited in-ring as was Austin post-neck break.

It's a tough situation. I think the difference in his reign of terror stretch and now is that we're talking many years of the same exact thing. It's just gotten stale.

The problem for me isn't John Cena, it's that John Cena is really one of the only main eventers the company has outside of Orton. His title runs were fine because you still had HBK, HHH, Taker, Edge, Jericho and others on the card. You don't have that so people a PPV is really just $50 to watch one or two title matches.

While I think a Cena heel run would be incredibly entertaining, they don't have to do it to fix the problem. They need to re-build the midcard, need to re-build the tag division. Use these as feeders toward the main event scene instead of bringing in mercenaries from other promotions that no one has heard of and throwing them into the main event scene. Cena's babyface character is fine, you just need other options for people too. If you didn't like Cena in the past, you could tune in because you liked HBK. But now, if you don't like Cena or Orton, there really isn't a point to buying a PPV.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mota

Hulk Hogan would never let that happen in the 80's and Cena is essentially this decade's Hogan.

Have you ever seen the 1992 Royal Rumble? (OK, he didn't "let it happen" on purpose probably, but it was a similar issue then - Hogan drew, but the hardcore fans hated him).

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

While I think a Cena heel run would be incredibly entertaining, they don't have to do it to fix the problem. They need to re-build the midcard, need to re-build the tag division. Use these as feeders toward the main event scene instead of bringing in mercenaries from other promotions that no one has heard of and throwing them into the main event scene. Cena's babyface character is fine, you just need other options for people too. If you didn't like Cena in the past, you could tune in because you liked HBK. But now, if you don't like Cena or Orton, there really isn't a point to buying a PPV.

I just don't think fans care about the midcard because it's the midcard, it doesn't matter what you do there. Sure, in the 80s, the midcard was a big deal, but that was because the main eventers didn't wrestle on tv so the Steamboat/Savage feud WAS the TV main event feud. The real TV midcard then was Ron Bass v. A jobber - which I think was less over than the midcard scene today (Daniel Bryan v. Wade Barrett, etc.)

People will cite the attitude era - and cheap gimmicks like the Godfather were over.....but they didn't draw or sell PPVs. I would be in favor of taking Cena/Orton off regular TV for the most part, have them wrestle only rarely, and let the midcarders own the TV shows and the main eventers the PPVs. It's only that kind of re-structuring that will "enhance the midcard". I really don't believe that even if they signed 10 new tag teams and gave them all TV time anybody would care - as long as the main event angles were still being developed on free TV.

Andre/Hogan, Hogan/Savage - people fondly remember long build-ups but that's not reality. Both of those storytelling were completely built in maybe 2, 3 steps. Hogan/Andre was literally built on two Saturday AM shows (two short Piper's Pit segments), and then you just had short interviews on TV until mania. The Mega powers breaking up literally only had 2 steps (on Saturday Night's Main Event), and then it was just short TV interviews until the payoff at Mania. Mania's were huge not because of long build-up, but because you had Koko B. Ware v. Iron Mike Sharpe 52 weeks a year on TV. Now, you have a main event step every week on free TV - the midcarders and tag teams just aren't going to be important in that kind of environment.

Edit: And who are the mercenaries they're bringing in from other promotions - they might have been guilty of that towards the end of WCW but now I think they have the opposite problem. They develop guys in FCW, and they bring guys up and throw them up into the main event way, way, before they're ready. They could bring in Randy Savage in 1985 - Savage had already been on TV, been a main eventer in memphis for a decade, he was ready to go. Sheamus, or Miz, or Barrett, or Swagger, etc, wrestle in front of 75 people in FCW and then they're in the WWE, and within a year they're main eventing PPVs....and inevitably, they can't main event EVERY ppv so they go back to the midcard - once there, without that huge "debut push" they can't connect with the crowd anymore because they don't have the experience to do so....Savage was hugely over in the mid 80s as a midcarder just beating jobbers and doing promos in a way Miz/Sheamus/Barrett/Swagger just can't because they don't have the experience.

[RainMaker]

I think you underestimate the midcard. There were times in the late 90's and early 2000's where you didn't care for the main event, but got the PPV because there were a bunch of guys you wanted to see (Jericho, Mysterio, Pillman, Razor Ramon, HBK, Owen Hart, and so on). Your tag division had the Dudleys, Edge & Christian, Hardys, and others. Those matches mattered, people tuned in to see them.

But it goes beyond that. The midcard builds the future stars. Almost all your major stars over the last decade have come from the midcard. A midcard that was strong. Now that they have no midcard, they haven't been able to build a star in 5 years.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But it goes beyond that. The midcard builds the future stars. Almost all your major stars over the last decade have come from the midcard. A midcard that was strong. Now that they have no midcard, they haven't been able to build a star in 5 years.

Well they've certainly built up Cena/Orton from the midcard in the last 6-7 years - of course THOSE particular pushes are widely considered terrible things (not by you, but that's a general internet consensus that those guys "suck" now). The last 5 years have been weaker, though many guys have been elevated (Punk, Miz, Jeff Hardy and Edge before they left most notably). I don't think any of those guys or anyone else, until Punk, have connected with the audience the way Orton and Cena have, and I'm not really sure who COULD have with better booking. But how many 5-7 year periods have given any promotion a half a dozen legitimate home-grown new main eventers? I don't think that's possible. There's the awesome 2002-2005 period (which again, marked a huge ratings and buyrate decline, and everyone on the internet bitched about it at the time, but now remembers it as some kind of golden age), but the WWE largely just built off the success of the WCW midcard from the late 90s. Those guys were already over (Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, etc), any idiot could have thrown out the those guys every week and had good wrestling (if not good business). If the WWE had access to a half a dozen nationally known midcarders from another promotion right now, I'm sure they'd have a different kind of show - but that's not the wrestling landscape anymore. While a couple of guys broke through the attitude era midcard to better things, most didn't.

Cena and Orton were both also probably pushed too early....they're still both still young, just entering their primes now.....And people talk about them like they're 40-something year old Kevin Nash in 1999 WCW. Those are the top two stars. Not a lot of promotions, throughout history, had better or more over #3s and #4s than the WWE does now, and if they did, it was mostly from just stealing guys from other promotions (something that isn't an option anymore). (i.e, WCW late 90s - all WWF guys, WWF early 2000s - all WCW/ECW guys.)

[PilotMan]

Cena needs to hit the darkside. He needs a brutal heel turn to regain some legitimacy. Not just bad guy, but the kind of guy that kills puppies. He needs a string of losses, a break in his persona and a return with a really dark character.

[molson]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Cena needs to hit the darkside. He needs a brutal heel turn to regain some legitimacy. Not just bad guy, but the kind of guy that kills puppies. He needs a string of losses, a break in his persona and a return with a really dark character.

I think that will come some day, and it will be awesome, they're just not going to pull the trigger on it until he's on the downside of his career, ala Hulk Hogan joining the NWO.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Now that they have no midcard, they haven't been able to build a star in 5 years.

That might be an indictment of the "talent" they've been bringing into developmental as much as anything.

Guys who have little workrate + guys who really can't talk + guys who have less charisma than Malenko/Lance Storm <> future stars

There have been a few exceptions (Cabana & Castagnoli come to mind off the top of my head) but for whatever reason things haven't worked out.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That might be an indictment of the "talent" they've been bringing into developmental as much as anything.

Guys who have little workrate + guys who really can't talk + guys who have less charisma than Malenko/Lance Storm <> future stars

There have been a few exceptions (Cabana & Castagnoli come to mind off the top of my head) but for whatever reason things haven't worked out.

Ya, I think their developmental system has largely been a failure outside of Cena and Orton (and Cena did have some pre-WWE development indy work, and Orton had good genes)....everybody coming up from FCW these days has that same blank expression/same style/same look/vacuum of charisma....I'm hopeful that Punk's success, and the Castagnoli/Hero signings (or imminent signings) is a hint that they're going to be raiding ROH/the indys for guys who are more ready. It's not quite the same of plucking guys from Mid-South or WCCW or Portland, but....it's the best they can do in 2011.

Edit: It's weird that they knew this was the way to go in the mid-1990s when they helped keep ECW in business but they've forgotten it today....unless they're shoveling money to ROH behind the scenes which I guess is possible. Probably not though, I think they got arrogant and figured they'd create their own indy promotions. But FCW can't replicate what it's like to learn how to get over in front of Philly or NYC smarks.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Cena needs to hit the darkside. He needs a brutal heel turn to regain some legitimacy. Not just bad guy, but the kind of guy that kills puppies. He needs a string of losses, a break in his persona and a return with a really dark character.

Does a heel Cena sell product? Does a heel Cena end up doing SNL, Deal or No Deal, or end up as part of the Gilette Young Guns Celebrity Race?

Does a heel Cena do $54m in theater & DVD sales/rentals for The Marine
and $25m+ in theater & DVD sales/rentals for 12 Rounds

Granted, Legendary tanked spectacularly but I'm not sure how many people were interested in Cena as a wrestling coach rather than an action star. (Haven't seen DVD numbers for it anywhere)

Still, there's about $80 million reasons (plus millions more in marketing) that he's more viable as a face than as a heel.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Edit: It's weird that they knew this was the way to go in the mid-1990s when they helped keep ECW in business but they've forgotten it today....unless they're shoveling money to ROH behind the scenes which I guess is possible. Probably not though, I think they got arrogant and figured they'd create their own indy promotions. But FCW can't replicate what it's like to learn how to get over in front of Philly or NYC smarks.

I'm glad to know I'm not the only person that suspects there's more of a connection to ROH than any of us know about (but wouldn't it eventually have to be revealed in various corporate financials sooner or later?).

The dearth of indy promotions that aren't essentially outlaw promotions is a problem for every company that has any national profile, be it WWE, TNA, or ROH. Even as recently as the birth of TNA we saw a steady supply of talent working its way up from (relatively) reputable indies, Styles/Abyss/Killings Abyss via NWA Wildside come to mind as examples. Look at those feeder companies today and the drop off in talent is dramatic, it's mediocre on good days & pretty damn bad on others.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm glad to know I'm not the only person that suspects there's more of a connection to ROH than any of us know about (but wouldn't it eventually have to be revealed in various corporate financials sooner or later?).

The dearth of indy promotions that aren't essentially outlaw promotions is a problem for every company that has any national profile, be it WWE, TNA, or ROH. Even as recently as the birth of TNA we saw a steady supply of talent working its way up from (relatively) reputable indies, Styles/Abyss/Killings Abyss via NWA Wildside come to mind as examples. Look at those feeder companies today and the drop off in talent is dramatic, it's mediocre on good days & pretty damn bad on others.

I don't think they're shoveling money to ROH but they definitely tolerate the existence of TNA/ROH. The WWE did some nasty stuff back in the 80s when they wanted promotions to just die (sign away guys in the middle of big angles, run free TV shows up against competitor's PPVs, etc.)....I think they do at least realize that TNA/ROH, at their current levels of popularity, only help them.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Does a heel Cena sell product? Does a heel Cena end up doing SNL, Deal or No Deal, or end up as part of the Gilette Young Guns Celebrity Race?

Does a heel Cena do $54m in theater & DVD sales/rentals for The Marine
and $25m+ in theater & DVD sales/rentals for 12 Rounds

Granted, Legendary tanked spectacularly but I'm not sure how many people were interested in Cena as a wrestling coach rather than an action star. (Haven't seen DVD numbers for it anywhere)

Still, there's about $80 million reasons (plus millions more in marketing) that he's more viable as a face than as a heel.

Stone Cold and the Rock did well in that anti-hero persona. I believe both hosted SNL and got their share of publicity. I'd argue that more people likely know who Stone Cold is than John Cena. I don't know if you have to turn him heel, just shake up his persona.

I'm fine with him staying with it, but I do think you need some other main eventers in the company that people can turn to if they don't like Cena.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Well they've certainly built up Cena/Orton from the midcard in the last 6-7 years - of course THOSE particular pushes are widely considered terrible things (not by you, but that's a general internet consensus that those guys "suck" now). The last 5 years have been weaker, though many guys have been elevated (Punk, Miz, Jeff Hardy and Edge before they left most notably). I don't think any of those guys or anyone else, until Punk, have connected with the audience the way Orton and Cena have, and I'm not really sure who COULD have with better booking. But how many 5-7 year periods have given any promotion a half a dozen legitimate home-grown new main eventers? I don't think that's possible. There's the awesome 2002-2005 period (which again, marked a huge ratings and buyrate decline, and everyone on the internet bitched about it at the time, but now remembers it as some kind of golden age), but the WWE largely just built off the success of the WCW midcard from the late 90s. Those guys were already over (Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, etc), any idiot could have thrown out the those guys every week and had good wrestling (if not good business). If the WWE had access to a half a dozen nationally known midcarders from another promotion right now, I'm sure they'd have a different kind of show - but that's not the wrestling landscape anymore. While a couple of guys broke through the attitude era midcard to better things, most didn't.

Cena and Orton were both also probably pushed too early....they're still both still young, just entering their primes now.....And people talk about them like they're 40-something year old Kevin Nash in 1999 WCW. Those are the top two stars. Not a lot of promotions, throughout history, had better or more over #3s and #4s than the WWE does now, and if they did, it was mostly from just stealing guys from other promotions (something that isn't an option anymore). (i.e, WCW late 90s - all WWF guys, WWF early 2000s - all WCW/ECW guys.)

I think Edge and Hardy were legit main eventers. Perhaps they can't carry a company on their own, but they were guys I think people would purchase a PPV to see in a main event. Both built their way up from the tag division when that division actually mattered. Both had built up impressive resumes by the time they hit the main event scene. I think there is a huge difference in that and someone like Miz. Miz won lower tier belts for a few years when those belts meant absolutely jack shit. He had no memorable matches on his resume, no great feuds.

The undercard of these PPVs matter. They are simply too expensive to buy for one match. Especially when that one match is going to be on every torrent site a few hours later. It needs to be an event, people need to feel like they are getting something different for the full 3 hours.

And I think we have seen eras of 5-7 main eventers before. In fact, I think it was the norm from the late 90's on. It's only now that we have seen main event talent fall off the face of the Earth. Their problem is that they don't plan for the future and so when the older talent left, they were shit up a creek.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Stone Cold and the Rock did well in that anti-hero persona. I believe both hosted SNL and got their share of publicity. I'd argue that more people likely know who Stone Cold is than John Cena. I don't know if you have to turn him heel, just shake up his persona.

I'm sure you're right on which has a higher awareness, but then again, SCSA wasn't very often a heel per se. Anti-hero maybe, but not so much of a full blown heel.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think Edge and Hardy were legit main eventers. Perhaps they can't carry a company on their own, but they were guys I think people would purchase a PPV to see in a main event. Both built their way up from the tag division when that division actually mattered. Both had built up impressive resumes by the time they hit the main event scene. I think there is a huge difference in that and someone like Miz. Miz won lower tier belts for a few years when those belts meant absolutely jack shit. He had no memorable matches on his resume, no great feuds.
3 hours.

And I think we have seen eras of 5-7 main eventers before. In fact, I think it was the norm from the late 90's on. It's only now that we have seen main event talent fall off the face of the Earth. Their problem is that they don't plan for the future and so when the older talent left, they were shit up a creek.

Who do you think the missed the boat on in the last few years? I mean, do you really think if those Miz/Daniel Bryan U.S. title matches got a few more minutes both of those guys would be huge main eventers today? I mean, those were great matches, the crowds seemed to love them, there was a story behind it, what more did they have to do to "elevate" the midcard? Is it just a time problem, i.e, the midcard guys need more? I really don't think Cena/Orton get that much more TV time than the main eventers of 2002 or 1998 did. At some point guys have to be able to connect with an audience. Where exactly is this black hole of development and who was sitting around available to step in? (Remember, without the benefit of 12 seasoned WCW/ECW guys falling into your lap at once, I'm talking about after that.)

And anyway, if the problem is lack of main eventers today, doesn't the blame point back 5/6 years (back when the "midcard mattered")? Here's 2006's Summerslam:

1 Chavo Guerrero defeated Rey Mysterio[30][31] Singles match 10:59
2 The Big Show (c) defeated Sabu[5][30] Extreme Rules for the ECW World Championship 08:30
3 Hulk Hogan defeated Randy Orton[7][30] Singles match 10:56
4 Ric Flair defeated Mick Foley (with Melina)[30][32] "I Quit" match 12:47
5 Batista defeated King Booker (c) (with Queen Sharmell) by disqualification[4][30] Singles match for the World Heavyweight Championship 10:30
6 D-Generation X (Triple H and Shawn Michaels) defeated Vince and Shane McMahon[6][30] Tag team match 13:02
7 Edge (c) (with Lita) defeated John Cena[3][30]

That's a midcard that mattered I guess.....Is this what everyone wants to go back to? There's a ton of old WWF, ECW, and WCW stars there......The equivalent of this today I guess would be the ECW invasion of TNA. Seems like today, they're actually pushing new people, and putting them in big spots. Everything the internet fans always claimed to want....until it happens....then they see new, inexperienced guys in the midcard and decide it doesn't mean "jack shit".

[RainMaker]

Looking at that card, there are two young talents on it. 2 out of the 16. Both of which are now the only main event talents in WWE at this time. While it's a nice card from top to bottom, it doesn't develop much young talent at all. There has to be a mix of the future and present on these cards.

As for the lower tier belts, I don't think it's necessarily the time. I think it's more a matter of prestige. It used to mean something to win the IC or Tag titles. These matches made it on PPVs and would be a rather big thing moment on free TV to see defended. The Tag Team title can barely get its way on to Raw these days and I think a lot of fans would have a hard time even telling you who held the US/IC championships. Maybe that means building better storylines for it (Miz/Bryan is the only decent one they've had in years), giving it more time or better placement on the shows, or just getting the guys to act like it's more than an accessory.

Maybe condensing the titles would be a good thing too. Or merging the brands for that matter. I always thought it would be an interesting idea to turn Raw into the main event show and then have Smackdown feature the midcarders and tag teams more prominently. Perhaps seeing a Tag Team Championship match as your main event on that show.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Maybe condensing the titles would be a good thing too.

Agreed. The IC title was instantly downgraded once they launched a 2nd "World" title.

I always thought it would be an interesting idea to turn Raw into the main event show and then have Smackdown feature the midcarders and tag teams more prominently.

But the content for Smackdown isn't entirely their call, at least not if they want to keep the network happy.

Main eventing David Otunga vs ... well, some other midcarder (few of which I can even name off the top of my head) isn't going to pull the same numbers they're getting now, even with often 2nd or 3rd rate name guys.

It's a conundrum but until Vince has a network of his own, where he can eat lower ratings in the interest of development, I really don't think it's as simple as just deciding to do it.

Perhaps seeing a Tag Team Championship match as your main event on that show.

To do that you're going to need to have, you know, some tag teams ... which they pretty much got rid of over the years. Reportedly they're looking to rebuild the division & that might be interesting ... except if "Generation Me" aka the Young Bucks aka the Jackson brothers is what they're planning to rebuild with (they had dark match tryout Monday) then things may not work out. I've yet to see them - from NWA to TNA - look like anything better than midcarders at a local indy.

Goes back, in part, to the lack of development taking places in the indies today. Sure, ROH could provide 1-3 teams (if the Briscoes could just have stayed healthy ... ) but the NWA tag titles have only been on three teams since the middle of 2008 & while entertaining at the indy level only one of thsoe three teams comes close to being WWE talent and they had FCW time that came to nothing.

Then again, I'm not sure how many of the indy guys today could avoid wellness suspensions so it might be a moot point.

[RainMaker]

Well you'd definitely have to rebuild the tag team division before doing something like that. Bringing in teams and actually keeping them together for more than a month. Not to mention making the tag team belts mean something again. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I always love a good tag match with teams that know how to work well together.

[Mota]

I'd love to see the Kings of Wrestling (Chris Hero & Claudio Castagnoli) be able to do their thing in WWE. They are a fantastic tag team. Their matches are anything but the tag team formula. They're big enough for WWE, they're both pretty good talkers with good charisma. My only concern is that they are a tag team and they're from RoH so that automatically means that Michael Cole will rip into them constantly and they'll be put in tons of meaningless matches since there are very few tag teams out there.

[DeToxRox]

If you believe the sites, Triple H wants to enhance the tag division. It'll never be at that Hardys/E&C/Dudleys level again but there is no reason they can't build guys up through tags and then make them singles. A guy like Evan Bourne was built to be a WWE tag team wrestler. Keep those guys in spots like that and filter in different partners.

[RainMaker]

They are too quick to move a guy to singles. I saw no point in breaking up the Hart Foundation and putting Tyson Kidd into the singles division.

[Mota]

DH Smith was complete garbage though. But I agree about Tyson Kidd, he either needs some highlighting with promo spots or more time in tag teams with a new partner. He's a good wrestler but comes across as a jobber because you don't have an idea of who he is. Imagine Kidd / Bourne as tag champs, that would be pretty cool.

[DeToxRox]

Matt Hardy was popped for a DWI tonight and subsequently fired from TNA. Couldn't happen to a better person.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Matt Hardy was popped for a DWI tonight and subsequently fired from TNA. Couldn't happen to a better person.

I bet the Hardys will restart their Omega promotion - it will be home to all wrestlers who do too many drugs for even TNA to employ them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Matt Hardy was popped for a DWI tonight and subsequently fired from TNA.

Shocking.

I didn't think anything could get you fired from TNA if you were a WWE alum.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Hardys = Charlie Sheen - ratings

[Mota]

What a disastrous family. It was just 2009 when Jeff Hardy was one of the hottest things in wrestling. Matt Hardy was a capable midcarder as well. Now these guys are done, no one should employ them again. It's gotta be bad for TNA to fire Matt. So sad.

[Toddzilla]

The Hardy's haven't been a second thought in TNA for over a month now. No loss for them. Not like he ever drew in TNA anyway

[molson]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

The Hardy's haven't been a second thought in TNA for over a month now. No loss for them. Not like he ever drew in TNA anyway

Technically they've been suspended - but it's still amazing me that showing up drunk/high and ruining a PPV main event isn't a fireable offense.

[molson]

Things I didn't know......Alberto Del Rio fought Cro Cop....while wearing a mask (for a few seconds anyway).

[Mota]

Funny video! His eyes are saying "Holy crap I need to get up" and his body isn't moving at all.

Okay and now for sad news, apparently Jeff Hardy is back on Impact this Thursday. That's just insane. How could TNA possibly bring in the brother of the guy they JUST fired? And Jeff is worse than Matt. It's just another stupid decision in a series of stupid decisions. To think I preferred TNA to WWE at one point (2007 when the show sucked but they had great PPV's).

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mota

Funny video! His eyes are saying "Holy crap I need to get up" and his body isn't moving at all.

Okay and now for sad news, apparently Jeff Hardy is back on Impact this Thursday. That's just insane. How could TNA possibly bring in the brother of the guy they JUST fired? And Jeff is worse than Matt. It's just another stupid decision in a series of stupid decisions. To think I preferred TNA to WWE at one point (2007 when the show sucked but they had great PPV's).

At this point, I think we should stop phrasing questions with "How could TNA possibly". The answer is "Because it's TNA".

[DeToxRox]

What's best about TNA bringing Hardy back is the first episode they tape will air before his arraignment, and the second will air afterward. Can't wait to see how they edit that if he (most likely) is sent to rehab.

Also leave it to TNA to tape shows the same night their current product airs. I'd ask how those people could watch two future episodes of Impact without knowing what happened on the most current episode, but continuity isn't a big part of TNA's product anyway.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

How could TNA possibly bring in the brother of the guy they JUST fired?

Apparently members of the active roster aren't the only people at TNA who couldn't pass a piss test.

[DeToxRox]

The word making the rounds is that Matt Hardy was taken to a local hospital earlier today in North Carolina for a "medical issue". PWInsider.com has confirmed he is indeed hospitalized.

I have heard a lot of rumors regarding Hardy over the last 24 hours but nothing concrete so I won't speculate further. That said, given the issues of the last week, there are going to be a lot of people assuming the worst.

[Mota]

Considering this is the first we've talked about TNA in quite a while, would this be a good thing for them? At least they're on the radar now. Even if it's because they are a complete disaster.

They really feel like the dying WCW right now. So many turns that you forget who is a good guy and who is a bad guy. The fans don't even really care, they just cheer for whoever they want. And nothing they do matters. It just feels like it's all meaningless.

A year ago we would complain and complain about the product, but now it's so bad that we just don't care anymore. That's when you know it's almost done. Surprisingly, the TV ratings are still pretty much the same as they've always been.